Richard Sanderson | The 2026 Spencer Stuart CMO Survey - Marketers in the Messy Middle

Summary

CMO Confidential Podcast Summary

Episode: Richard Sanderson | The 2026 Spencer Stuart CMO Survey - Marketers in the Messy Middle
Host: Mike Linton
Guest: Richard Sanderson, Leader Marketing, Communications & Sales Practice at Spencer Stuart
Date: March 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into two comprehensive studies from Spencer Stuart—one tracking the tenure and role evolution of Chief Marketing Officers (CMOs) in the S&P 500, and another focused on how CMOs are experiencing and anticipating the impact of AI on their teams, careers, and industry at large. Through candid conversation, host Mike Linton and guest Richard Sanderson unpack the realities behind high CMO turnover, evolving job scopes, and the uncertain but rapidly approaching future shaped by artificial intelligence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The CMO Role: Short Tenures, Brighter Futures

• Scope of Study: Spencer Stuart has been tracking CMO tenure data for over 25 years, providing rare longitudinal insight ([03:22]).
• Current State:
  • Only ~2/3 of S&P 500 companies have a CMO; 1/3 do not ([05:07]).
  • CMO average tenure: 4.1 years (relatively stable post-COVID, but the shortest of all C-suite roles; C-suite average is 5.0 years) ([05:56]).
• Misconceptions about Tenure:
  • A short tenure doesn't signal failure; 62% of CMOs leaving their roles are promoted internally or move to similar/bigger roles elsewhere ([07:02]).
  • "The majority of CMOs, when they exit, are being promoted into either bigger or better roles. And so short tenure should not be a signal of failure." – Richard Sanderson ([07:02])
• Evolution of the CMO Role:
  • Expansion into “CMO-plus” roles (Chief Revenue Officer, Chief Customer Officer) is a strong trend, especially in industries like hospitality, retail, and software ([09:23]).
  • Divergence by industry: Healthcare and industrial sectors have a notably lower prevalence of the role.

2. Internal vs. External Hiring for CMOs

• Internal Promotions Rising: 62% of S&P 500 CMOs are hired from within ([10:41]).
  • "There was a feeling that if you wanted to be a CMO you had to make a move. ... The reality is you're more likely to be appointed from within." – Richard Sanderson ([11:13])
• Succession Planning: Organizations are improving at grooming and promoting talent internally, particularly from broad-scope roles (division, region, or line-of-business CMOs) ([12:52], [13:02]).
• Challenges:
  • Specialized sub-capabilities in marketing make cross-functional advancement difficult.
  • Internal promotions most common among those with full-scope "mini CMO" roles within large organizations (ex: JP Morgan Chase’s structure) ([13:51]).

3. The AI Impact: Marketers in the Messy Middle

• 2026 "Make or Break" for AI:
  • Only 17% of CMOs reduced headcount in the last 12-24 months due to AI—but 36% anticipate doing so in the next 12-24 months ([14:29], [16:11]).
• Job Cuts & Efficiency Pressure:
  • Large companies (> $20B revenue) facing aggressive cost reduction targets (20% efficiency expectations) ([16:49]).
  • Headcount cuts most likely in content production and agency-facing roles.
  • “There's significant pressure to reduce costs for the largest companies.” – Richard Sanderson ([16:11])
• Redeployment vs. Reduction:
  • Smaller/mid-sized companies focus more on redeployment, upskilling, and workflow shifts ([18:05]).
  • Large enterprises feel direct staff reduction pressure.

4. Marketers’ Collective Position: The “Messy Middle”

• Self-Assessment:
  • 51% of CMOs identify as “average” in AI adoption—very few see themselves as leaders or laggards ([19:44]).
  • No respondents identified with fully transformed, AI-native marketing teams ([20:03]).
• Org Structure & Change Ownership:
  • CIO/CTO typically leads AI strategy, but CMO is usually the next in line ([20:59]).
  • CMOs and tech leaders both have “giant line items”—putting cost expectations squarely on their teams ([21:29]).
• Industry Comparison:
  • “Marketing is in the middle of this maelstrom.” – Richard Sanderson ([20:59])
• AI in Broader Business Reality:
  • The wave of AI-driven change and job cuts is just beginning, with effects expected to accelerate ([18:52], referencing previous guests and trends).

5. Career Development & Talent Evolution Amid AI

• Functional Re-examination:
  • More companies are reconsidering organizational design, scope, and needed marketing skills—the "four S’s: strategy, structure, scope, and skills" ([23:26]).
  • Skills sought: AI fluency, designing prompts, supervising AI agents, data hygiene, and experimentation design ([23:26]–[24:52]).
• Ongoing Uncertainty:
  • No standard playbook for upskilling and reskilling; large emphasis on peer learning, communities, experimentation ([26:08]).
  • “This is a giant learn-as-we-go runway for marketers.” – Mike Linton ([26:44])
• Brand Trust at Risk:
  • Some elements, notably brand trust, are receiving less attention in the rush to AI ([27:06]).
  • AI-generated content can lead to backlash and brand safety/inclusivity issues, as in the McDonald's Netherlands ad controversy ([27:06]).

6. Personal Advice and Mindset for the Future

• Active Engagement:
  • “Be prepared … Build your own proof-of-value portfolio [for AI]. … Help me understand you are in the flow here, that you understand what is going on.” – Richard Sanderson ([29:00])
  • Personal and professional proof-points with AI are already topics in interview questions.
  • Continual learning and agility are more vital than ever.
• Adapting to New Realities:
  • Ostriches vs. Wolves metaphor: “There’s way more ostriches out there than there are wolves. Go be a wolf.” – Vikrant Batra (quoted by Sanderson, [30:35])
  • Linton: “If you’re an ostrich, when you decide you want to be a wolf, it's probably too late for you.” ([31:13])
• Practical Story:
  • Some organizations now give AI agents job descriptions, onboarding, and supervisors—treating them like human hires ([32:37]).

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Memorable Quotes

• On CMO Tenure:
  "Short tenure should not be a signal of failure ... the majority of CMOs, when they exit, are being promoted into either bigger or better roles."
  — Richard Sanderson ([07:02])

• On AI Cost Pressure:
  "37% of CMOs in those companies told us their CEOs or CFOs are essentially giving them efficiency targets of at least 20% over the next 12 to 24 months. That is significant."
  — Richard Sanderson ([16:49])

• On Mindset:
  "There's way more ostriches out there than there are wolves. Go be a wolf."
  — Vikrant Batra, quoted by Richard Sanderson ([30:35])

• On Career Readiness:
  "Help me understand that you are in the flow here, that you understand what is going on, … and show me how you do it on a personal level."
  — Richard Sanderson ([29:00])

• On the Current State of AI Adoption:
  "Very few saw themselves at the edges and most were clustering in the middle. … 0% answered that [they were fully transformed]."
  — Richard Sanderson ([19:44]–[20:03])

• On Brand Risk:
  "There's a real concern that human oversight and human creativity, if it gets sacrificed at the altar of AI, there's going to be some real pushbacks and consequences in this rush to AI."
  — Richard Sanderson ([28:29])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• State of the CMO Role/Study Overview – [04:43]–[08:19]
• CMO Internal/External Hires & Succession Planning – [10:33]–[14:15]
• AI Study / 2026 Outlook, Headcount, and Efficiency Targets – [14:15]–[18:52]
• The Messy Middle, Self-Assessment, and Organizational Leadership in AI – [19:24]–[22:57]
• Career Development, Skills, and Brand Trust – [22:57]–[28:29]
• Practical Career Advice & Wolves vs Ostriches – [29:00]–[31:31]
• Practical Story: Treating AI as Team Members – [32:37]

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Takeaways for Marketers & CMO Aspirants

• Stay Proactive: Regularly experiment with AI tools, build your own value case, and ensure your skills are current for whatever direction the marketing landscape flows next.
• Participate in Peer Learning: No one has a set playbook. Relying on peer communities and sharing experiences is essential.
• Prepare for a Fast-Changing Landscape: AI will redefine roles, responsibilities, and career ladders—adapting quickly isn’t optional.
• Don’t Ignore Brand Trust and Creativity: In the rush to adopt technology, these brand fundamentals remain non-negotiable—and often underpin long-term career resilience.
• Be a Wolf, Not an Ostrich: Early engagement and initiative in AI and related skills will separate career survivors from those caught in the inevitable efficiency drives.

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This episode is an urgent, candid look at how top marketers are (and aren’t) preparing for the seismic shifts coming from inside and outside the CMO role—making it essential listening for any marketing leader serious about thriving in the next era.

Transcript

[A]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential,

[B]

the podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the Head of marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton.

[A]

When is the last time you researched something on a website? If you're like most people, AI did that work for you. And that raises a question. If AI is doing the work, what is your website really for? This behavioral shift means AI bots are becoming your most important new visitors. A challenge our sponsor Scrunch is taking head on. Scrunch is the customer experience platform that helps you understand how AI agents experience your site, when and why they show up, and what's blocking them from being retrieved, trusted or recommended. Scrunch shows you the content and citation gaps and technical blockers and helps you fix them so your brand shows up when consumers. Start with AI because your most important site visitor might not be a human for our listeners, Scrunch is providing a free website audit that uncovers how AI sees your site and how you're showing up in AI versus the competition. Run your site through [e-mail] CMO welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer Confidential CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company. And what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy, eBay, Farmers Insurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guest Richard Sanderson. Today's topic the Spencer Stewart CMO Survey Marketers in the Messy Middle Now. Richard began his career at Russell Reynolds and Booze Co. And moved to Spencer Stewart where he leads the marketing, communications and sales practice. He heads approximately 25 searches per year for the CMO, CRO, CCO and sales leadership positions. This is Richard's fifth time on the show in our more than three year run and we consider him a CMO confidential OG. Full disclosure, we've known each other for quite a while as Richard recruited me to the Allworth Financial Board. Welcome back, Richard.

[B]

Thank you Mike. Fifth time. Do I get a cut of the advertising revenue anytime soon?

[A]

You send you a check for 4 cents.

[B]

Wonderful. Thank you. You Know where to find me.

[A]

Hey, so Richard, we're covering two studies here. The annual CMO survey that Spencer's done for a long time and a CMO survey that you guys did. Proprietary on AI, right?

[B]

Yeah, that's right. So thank you for giving us the opportunity. You're right. So we have Spencer Stewart has conducted a survey of CMO tenure now for something like 25, 26 years. It's probably the longest data set of longitudinal insights into CMO tenure. It was started by my great friend and colleague Greg Welch many years ago and I've stepped into the breach and continue to run it this year. We've just published in the last week or so the latest results. And additionally at the end of last year, Mike, we wanted to try and separate some of the really try and separate the signal from the noise around what exactly is going on with AI and marketing. Not so much looking at marketing technology, but perhaps my sense is some of the less spoken about topics around AI and marketing, which is what is it going to do to talent and teams? And it feels like every week now in the Wall Street Journal or some other publication of choice, there seems to be some headline about thousand job cuts here, 10,000 job cuts there. Some of it is associated with AI, some of it is, is, is not. But what actually is going on and what decisions and headcount changes, amongst other things, do we expect marketing leaders to make? So we went ahead and conducted a survey there of 100 marketing offices and got some interesting results back on that. So two for the price of one this time, Mike?

[A]

Well, I feel like It's a buy one, get one. So let's start with the state of the CMO, the study you've done for 20 plus years. In the overview, you titled this study Shorter Tenures, Brighter Futures. Give us the overview of this, the CMO study and what has changed, if much over the last year.

[B]

Right. So just to set the baseline for your listeners and your viewers, Mike, we look at the S&P 500. So that is basically the largest 500 companies by market capitalization. We look at the Chief Marketing Officer or the most similar role to that. And then essentially we're looking at all the features associated with when that person was hired. How long have they been in the role? Where did they come from? Insider, Outsider? Were they from the industry? Outside of the industry? All the bits and pieces. Here's the headline. First of all, I think it always surprises people, but roughly about a third of The S&P 500 companies do not even have a Chief Marketing officer. That's, I think, to me, actually quite unusual. Compare that to, I think, zero percent of companies that don't.

[A]

Yeah, nobody has no cfo.

[B]

Right. But a full third do not have an enterprise level marketing officer. The Average S&P 510 year this year is about 4.1 years. That is actually remarkably stable. I mean, since COVID we have now seen that number hover in the 4.1 to 4.3 year range pretty consistently.

[A]

So this is remarkable too, because that is against a lot of the common news you hear about CMOs getting, you know, cut left and right. Right, right.

[B]

And that's one of the reasons why we wanted to do this, because for years I think there's this backstory of rumors, hypothesis, conjecture, but surprisingly little data. Here's what is true though, Mike. At 4.1 years, that is below the average of the C suite. In fact, it is the lowest average tenure of all the C suite offices. To be clear, the average for all C suite roles at these same companies is about 5.0 years.

[A]

Oh, so that's, that's almost a 25% jump.

[B]

So, yeah, it is a year, approximately a year less. And so, you know, the short tenure may seem like an indication of a revolving door for marketing leaders, Mike, but in our analysis, we actually find the opposite to be true. And indeed, what we have done is actually track the exits of all the CMOs who left their roles between 2021 and 2025. And what we're finding is it's about 62%. So almost two thirds. The reality is they are either promoted at their company or they went on to a similar or bigger role at another company. And so I think the mistake that historically people have made is to associate short tenure with failure. That is not the case. Indeed, what we're finding here is that the majority of CMOs, when they exit, are being promoted into either bigger or better roles. And so short tenure should not be a signal of failure.

[A]

And some of these roles, I want to go back to, the third of companies don't have a cmo, which I think is pretty consistent with last year's study, are roughly close. But a lot of these jobs is the CMO job evolving to be experience, revenue, super CMO kind of gigs. Is that right?

[B]

It is. Look, we do find some difference across industries. So, for example, just 56% of health care companies have a chief marketing officer. Just 53% of industrial companies have a chief marketing officer. On the other hand, in financial services, that percentage, for example, is, is. Is is much higher. Some of it I think is related to, you know, regulatory constraints or just simply marketing. In some industry verticals, Mike is more of a support function than it is a commercial or revenue influencing function.

[A]

You mean like in industrials where I'm Bechtel or I'm somebody like doing a lot of infrastructure stuff, I am supporting the sales team or the biz dev team. Is that what it is?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, exactly. I mean companies like, I mean here's an example. Off the top of my head I seem to recall company like Northrop Grumman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Lockheed Martin. Neither of those two companies have chief marking offices. Whilst I don't know what their customer base looks like, I would imagine it's a lot of it. Is the government

[A]

sitting at the Pentagon? Yes.

[B]

And so, you know, there are situations like that. That's where I think a chief marketing officer reporting to a CEO part of a C suite probably has lower value than I think in other industries or businesses where the CMO is directly influencing revenue. So there's point number one which is about prevalence of the role by industry. But your other point is, right, which is, and we've spoken about this before, which is this concept of a CMO plus role. So in the hospitality industry for example, many companies have moved to a chief commercial officer responsible for sales and marketing. A big trend we've seen in the last couple of years has been in software companies that have moved to a chief revenue officer style role. And many retail companies now are just as likely to have a chief customer officer who oversees not only the traditional remit of a cmo. So some of the brand creative, media, insights, analytics, but also a lot of the Omni channel activation, retail design assortment and for some even the in store experience. So yes, it is true that, and this is not a new phenomenon, but the evolution of the role has continued to grow over the last five years.

[A]

And you said in the study that more companies are hiring from within than previously. What's driving that? And tell us about it.

[B]

Yeah. So look, we have found 62% of chief marketing officers of the S&P 500 that we discussed were appointed from within. You know, the inverse of that. You can say 38% are hired externally and of those that have been hired externally, 27% of them actually have held a CMO role before. Again, we did, we did find some different patterns across industry. But I think the message here is that there was a feeling that if you wanted to be a CMO you had to make a move.

[A]

Yeah. Now you had it was easier. It was like NFL coaching job. It's easier to be offensive coordinator somewhere and get hired than it is to get promoted.

[B]

Right. So at least if you look at this data set and I accept this is the larger company market cap, this does not include a lot of the private equity, privately held businesses. It doesn't include small early stage businesses, but certainly these larger, more mature businesses. The reality is you're more likely to be appointed from within. And so what we're finding here is that companies, you know, many, many but not all are doing a much better job around succession planning. If you are a.

[A]

This is a major shift over if you go back 20 years, right?

[B]

Well, I think it is, yes. I mean there is some assumption that to your point, it was a little bit more like football coaches. You, you had to move to get the top job. I actually think there has historically actually been a little bit of a crisis actually around succession planning. My biggest concern is that the marketing function has become a series of highly specialized sub capabilities and often challenge a chief marketing officer. When was the last time you put your creative director to be your head of performance marketing or vice versa, for example? I mean it actually very rarely happens. And now of course we're seeing specialized roles around your VP marketing technology experience roles crop up. I mean it has become the marketing skill set has become a really broad and diverse church and yet we are seeing some marketing leaders. I think what we're actually seeing is the ones that really do step up. Mike, are the ones who are in what I would say the divisional business unit or geographic marketing leadership roles where

[A]

they got a wider remit.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So they have my whole career building a brand or doing performance marketing or CRM and that it's harder to make that leap, Is that what you're saying?

[B]

Yeah. What we are seeing, the greatest likelihood of an internal promotion are those that have held the full scope of CMO role, but maybe at a smaller scale. So specifically, as I said, they might be in a geographical business. They might be, I don't know, the CMO for Europe or some region or they may be the chief marketing officer of a business line. I mean a great example would be, I mean, I'll just pick on one example. I mean JP Morgan Chase, you have obviously, as people well know, Carla Hassan in the enterprise leadership role, but there's really nine or so business unit chief marketing officers under her who they have generally had speaking have different scopes but broadly speaking have full funnel remit within their business units. They are effectively mini CMOs. And could easily be plucked off and sit in an enterprise role at another organization. Some of the big.

[A]

There are many CMOs over really big businesses too.

[B]

Correct, Correct. And so that's where we do see this promotion. And that's why, as I said, I am sensitive. This data set is skewed slightly towards larger or higher market cap companies, but certainly amongst that group we are seeing a much better job of succession planning and grooming the next generation of marketing leaders to step into the top C suite enterprise level role.

[A]

Speaking of that, let's flip to the second study which is marketers see 2026 as a make or break year for AI. According to your study share the dynamics at play there. What are you hearing from your study?

[B]

Yeah, so this comes back to where we started, Mike, which is we had one today. Again, there's been a lot of conjecture and hypothesis around so what exactly is AI going to do? And through our lens at Spencer Stewart, we're obviously most interested in it from a leadership teams and talent perspective. And I think we're all seeing headlines every day about various job losses. Some of it may or may not be associated with AI. There is a sense, there is a moment of reckoning coming. And so we actually asked 100 CMOs that participated in our survey, what exactly do you expect to happen? And so here's where we are. I mean, there's a sense of when we asked them, how many of you have actually reduced headcount in the last 12 to 24 months? The answer was not many. Only 17% have actually cut jobs directly as a result of AI in the last 12 to 24 months. However, when we ask them, well, what about the next 12 to 24 months, then it looks very different. 36% of chief marketing officers tell us they expect reductions in headcount in the next 12 to 24 months as a direct result of AI. It's the content, production and likely agency facing roles that are most vulnerable. When we cut the data across industries, we tried to see where are the differences? Are there differences across industry? Are there differences across holding structure? So in other words, public versus private versus nonprofits. In fact, the only statistically significant dimension which we could find difference was actually among size. And this is actually the really important point. There is significant pressure to reduce costs for the largest companies.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

Definition of large here is revenue greater than $20 billion. That's approximately. If you equate that back to our S P 500, it's roughly the top 200 or the top 250 companies in terms of market cap or revenue. Now there, some of the numbers were quite staggering at that point, 37% of CMOs in those companies told us that their CEOs or CFOs are essentially giving them what's called efficiency targets of at least 20% over the next 12 to 24 months. That is significant.

[A]

A lot.

[B]

20%. Because if you think about, I mean the size of these marketing teams for

[A]

companies, if I have a thousand person team, right, and some of the largest 200 heads in that and a billion dollar budget says I have to find 200 million. Let's take a short break for a word from our sponsor, Scrunch.

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[B]

Now back to our discussion with Richard Sanderson. That's right. So you know, some of the, some of the headlines here were around, you know, headcount. You know, I know that's what captures people's attention, but it was clear that in small or mid sized companies the story is really about redeployment upskilling. There is significant benefits to workflow shifts rather than true business model shifts. However, for the large companies, the cost savings and efficiency gains expectations are significant and they're coming now. There's a sense we heard from chief marketing officers or certainly the feeling or the sentiment they're getting from their CEO or CFO that look guys, you've had two years to do all your pilots. Now it's show us the money.

[A]

Well and we've done a couple of shows with agencies where that pressure on agencies to, to do this is enormous. And then we did a venture capital with a gentleman named Rob Ward who basically said the real tip of the iceberg here on the cutting is just getting underway. A lot of this was kind of just the beginning and so we got a lot of points on here. And, and so you, in the study you said CMOs, they think they're in the messy middle.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And tell me what, why is it so messy and is it more messy in marketing than other places in the company?

[B]

Well, so let me answer that. So there's two parts there. There's, you know, what's going on with marketing. And then I think you're asking a broader comparative question with, you know, how else is AI impacting other parts of the enterprise? Let me pick the marketing piece of that first. Mike can just touch on that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We had ask them simple questions around you. Do you see yourself as a laggard or as a leader? The answer is very few saw themselves at the edges and most were clustering in the middle. In fact, 51% of CMOs, perhaps not surprisingly, think they are. They are around average.

[A]

It's like a Lake Wobbegone study.

[B]

Right. I think we went a little bit further around. So you know, where exactly is your marketing team on the AI adoption journey? Again, we gave, you know, an option of 5 answers. On the one hand, those where they're just, you know, individual team members are just doing some individual uncoordinated experimentation. Hardly anyone said there. We also asked the other end of the spectrum, how many of you are in fully transformed AI native marketing organizations and again, actually 0% answered that. So no one thinks that at either end of this. The vast majority tell us they're either piloting projects in some functional areas or they're beginning to scale proven use cases across multiple teams.

[A]

Is this like, is everyone playing on a muddy field here and the marketer is just one of the most visible players, or is marketing really more unique in this AI space?

[B]

No, it does appear that I think marketing is in the middle of this maelstrom, Mike. I mean, we also ask marketing leaders within your company who actually is taking the lead on AI strategy and implementation? I mean, who is the spotlight on? Interestingly, perhaps not surprisingly, in most companies it's actually the chief information or the chief technology officer that is driving initiatives. But the CMO is number two, right behind it. So if your CIO isn't doing it, there's an expectation that marketing, because you

[A]

have, you have this giant, both those groups have huge line items at these companies. Like, you know, you're just sitting on ginormous line items and that's where the cost will go. Or is it really more first principles? This is where we have to re engineer everything.

[B]

That's an interesting question. I mean, I think there is a sense of, of course, you know, many markets more in consumer related industries are sitting on sizable Budgets. I mean we've just seen in the recent super bowl, for example, I think there was even a stat that was published in the Wall Street Journal. I think that 23% of, of ads and our AI influence, I mean it is, it is coming and it is coming now. And there is this sense which you're hearing from your agency partners, the squeeze is coming and it's coming, it's coming to marketing. Look, I'm sure there are significant statements to be had in AI. Sorry in the information and technology depending the teams you're in. Clearly there's a lot of threat to software businesses. The entire software valuation got hammered in 2026 purely by, I think it was anthropic releasing a small add on that happens to help in the legal industry. Within 24 hours you see valuations of the entire software industry collapse. There is a real sense that people are on edge, Mike. And this is the moment in 2026 where it goes from talk to the expectation of reality is coming true now.

[A]

So let's talk about the downstream effects of that because the CMOs in the messy middle for a whole bunch of reasons. When you look down in the orgs for the future, you know, leaders of marketing or chief revenue officers or chief customer officers. What's this all going to do to career development and experience if everyone's shrinking budgets and people?

[B]

Yep. So a great question. I would say it's been notable Mike, over the last two years. I feel my colleagues, and I'm sure this is true for other search and leadership advisory firms, we are having more fundamental discussions about, I mean essentially what I call the four S's strategy, structure, scope and skills. There's more fundamental discussion around are we organized the right way? Is it supporting the strategy the way it should? Do we have the right, have we scoped the roles the right way and do we actually have the skills we need to fulfill those scope mandates? These are much more fundamental first principle discussions I think marketing leaders, chief HR officers, talent leaders are having now and I think it is being driven by AI. I mean there is a sense that many job descriptions are being written for more AI. First. There is a sense of moving from I think doing to orchestrating. I'm certainly seeing language now in position descriptions around designing prompts, supervising agents. I'm talking about AI agents here to be clear. Owning performance outcomes and building fluency and data hygiene or what's the experimentation design. What are the AI related KPIs? I mean it is clear some of these roles now I think are being Redesigned and rescoped and reskilled for, for a more AI centric future. We are seeing that now.

[A]

And if I'm sitting here at the manager or the director level and well, I, I'm going to flip this over and say you're looking at all these people, are they going to be getting the same training needed? I, I can make a case that when I, I just take everything apart that you just said, you're going to have a lot less really good talent in the pool because of specialization, shrinking budgets, shrinking heads and, and less training. Is that, is that a fair assessment or not? If I look 10 years, it could be.

[B]

I think honestly our sense is, I don't want to say people are making it up as they go along, but there is clear a lot of change coming. I mean I'm certainly we, through the survey we asked marketing leaders either what roles have you created or retired.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As a result of AI adoption, how are you transforming your existing teams and the culture to be ready? What are you doing around investing in upskilling, embedding AI into workflows and importantly, how do you foster a culture of experimentation and continuous learning? I mean there are some real questions coming from that. I mean, I think we heard all sorts of answers. I mean, setting up senses of excellence. The phrase tiger teams occurred up in

[A]

many answer for almost any problem.

[B]

Right. It is some sort of agile scrum. Whatever the buzzwords are, they are coming back because I think there is a sense that organizations are having to evolve their frameworks, their skill base and their capability base, but there's no obvious playbook here to lean on. I mean, I think that's the other thing. What I heard from marketing officers in particular is just the importance right now of peer and partner communities. Whether it's CMO forums, peer groups, consulting partners, agency partners. There's a lot of learning by doing or listening from others.

[A]

This is a giant learn as we go Runway for marketers. But also in the study, you know, I think you asked are some elements of marketing getting ignored or less attention? And one of the things that came out I think was yeah, the whole brand trust thing is maybe not as heavy as it used to be, or at least I think that's what I read. Am I getting that right?

[B]

Yeah, no, I think you are. I mean I, I, this was, this was public news. So I'm not telling you anything you haven't seen, but already we are seeing some pushback against AI first advertising. I think it was last year, there was a report that it's actually in Europe, I think McDonald's in Netherlands had launched an AI generated Christmas or seasonal ad that had, you know, a lot of, a lot of pushback. And because of the backlash, that ad was removed from YouTube within days. I mean, there's no doubt that there's some real concerns around brand trust. I mean, there is a sense that privacy, security, inclusivity, for example, will remain really important. And I think there's a real concern that not enough attention is being paid to some of these areas in this rush to adopt AI. And there are going to be some second order consequences, the risk of AI generated content which either mishandles issues, for example, around disability, diversity or inclusion. I think there's some real concern that human oversight and human creativity, if it gets sacrificed at the altar of AI, there's going to be some real pushbacks and consequences in this rush to AI.

[A]

Well, and we had a guest, Tom Goodwin on, who basically said, look, if everyone's using AI, AI by definition is the norm. And your job is to have an exceptional business. So if you're just doing AI, you're just doing the norm.

[B]

Yep, I think that's right.

[A]

So other than buckle up for a wild ride, what should our listeners take away from these studies? Things they should do at work, things they should do for their career, Things they should be thinking about.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, look, some of them remain a little bit perennial. But you know, what I am encouraging people to do is just be prepared because there's a question I will now ask in interviews. I mean, I will just actually ask people. I'm just curious how to use AI in your own personal life or what case studies do you have about how AI is impacting you at work. In other words, what I'm suggesting to people is that by, you know, prepare for the future here and build your own, if you like, sort of proof of value portfolio, how and where, you know, what are the use cases you are getting out of AI either on a personal, professional level, I really don't care. But help me understand that you are in the flow here, that you understand what is going on, you have a sense of the direction you can respond and leverage and leverage these new tools and show me how you do it on a personal level. So I think there's just a little bit of personal preparation that goes on there. But I think there is a sense now, perhaps more so than ever, around constant learning, whether it's, dare I say, Mike, listening to podcasts like this, newsletters, courses, you can say it, Eddie, as much as you want Richard, vendor sessions, conferences. I mean, there is a sense of how do you keep current, how do you keep learning? And this sense of agility, I think is going to be even more acute now over the next, over the next two years.

[A]

So I hear you saying, since there is no roadmap and since everyone's kind of making it up as they go, you've got to be in the flow, wherever the flow is. And that means the flow will not come to you. You have to go to this flow. Is that right?

[B]

Yeah, it is. I mean, it reminds me of, you know, I, when I really first started thinking about the impact this topic of a I was going to have on leadership. I did a myself an interview. You might know him, a guy called Vikrant Batra, the former chief marketing officer of hp. And he had this phrase, he says, look, I'm beginning to see people. I put them into sort of two categories around AI they're either ostriches or they're wolves. The ostriches are the folks that have their head in the sand. The wolves are at the front of the pack chasing the prey, figuring out, you know, the, the direction of the hunt. And you know, there's a sense of, he said, look, honestly, there's way more ostriches out there than there are wolves. Go be a wolf.

[A]

Well, and I think the other thing is in this category, correct me if I'm wrong, one of the things that you used to able to be an ostrich is you could catch up. And in this case, I hear you saying if you're an ostrich, when you decide you want to be wolf, it's probably too late for you.

[B]

Well, yeah, and look, particularly I'm going to lean on the results of this survey that says, look, there are, whether you like it or not, if you are sitting in a large, let's call it a Fortune S&P 500 business, just know your boss has been given a significant cost reduction target that he or she has to fulfill over the next one to two years. And I've sort of newsflash here. There's sometimes one only easy way to fulfill that cost target and don't be on the wrong end of it.

[A]

Well, and that's if there's a lot less jobs, you're always looking for the variable to be the one that it stays versus the one that goes. And I hear you saying you have a lot of questions that you can determine if I'm a wolf or an ostrich. So. All right, I think that's a great way to get to our last question. Practical advice. You know the last question you're I do practical advice and or funny story you would like to share with our listeners. Funny story you can tell in the air. You know, you could take one or both, but you must take at least one, so knock yourself out.

[B]

So it's more of a practical one. And again, I'm going to not to toot our horn on this AI survey, but one of the most interesting responses was how one chief marketing officer told us how they were treating an AI agent. So there actually there are some businesses that are treating AI agents just as if they were human new hires. So in other words, it needed onboarding, it needed data access, it needed a style guide, it needed a supervisor. They're actually writing a job description for an AI agent and almost treating it as like a human now. And so this is a mindset shift. But that was perhaps one of the more practical stories I'm hearing around how CMOs are treating AI agents like humans.

[A]

I realize I'm using a lot of verbals with mine and I yelled at it the other day. I'm like, why do I have to keep repeating this? And it said, you're right, you shouldn't have to. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is terrifying. So, okay, I think that's a great end. If you have any more practical advice you want to throw out there before we close, we're open.

[B]

I'm good.

[A]

All right, thank you, Richard. And thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. New shows drop every Tuesday, and you can find our entire 160 show catalog on Spotify, Apple, and YouTube, which include Colonel Mustard in the study with the job spec. How poor Design Shortens CMO Lifespans. Marketing at Meta the View from the Eye of the Storm, why Can, can't, and Richard's earlier shows, two of which are dissecting comp, A primer on pay and it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. A marketing perspective. Hey, all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential. When is the last time you researched something on a website? If you're like most people, AI did that work for you. And that raises a question. If AI is doing the work, what is your website really for? This behavioral shift means AI bots are becoming your most important new visitors. A challenge our sponsor, Scrunch, is taking head on. Scrunch is the customer experience platform that helps you understand how AI agents experience your site. When and why they show up and what's blocking them from being retrieved, trusted, or recommended. Scrunch shows you the content and citation gaps and technical blockers and helps you fix them so your brand shows up when consumers start with AI because your most important site visitor might not be a human. For our listeners, Scrunch is providing a free website audit that uncovers how AI sees your site and how you're showing up in AI versus the competition. Run your site through [e-mail] CMO.