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CMO Confidential
Shiv Singh | CEO Savvy Matters | Why Cannes Can't - Things That Aren't Covered at the Big Soiree
00:39:55
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The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential.
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The podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the head of marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton.
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Typeface helps the world's biggest brands move.
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From business brief to fully personalized campaigns in hours, not months with its Agentic AI marketing platform. They are the first enterprise platform with agentic AI marketing workflows designed to instantly automate work that used to take weeks. With Typeface, one campaign scales into thousands of personalized experiences across ads, email and video while staying true to your brand. The company's AI native platform integrates seamlessly into your martech stack and marketing workflows and includes enterprise grade security. Adweek named Typeface AI Company of the Year. Time magazine featured them as a best invention and Fast Company called them the next big thing in tech. See how major brands like Asics and Microsoft are transforming marketing with Typeface. Learn more at Typeface AI CMO welcome.
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Marketers, advertisers and those who love them.
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To Chief Marketing Officer Confidential.
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CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite.
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I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing.
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Officer of Best Buy, eBay, Farmers Insurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guest Shiv Singh. Today's topic why can can't things that aren't covered at the big soiree in France? Now Shiv is the CEO of Savvy Matters, a co founder of AI Trailblazers, the former CMO of LendingTree, and he.
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Just came out with this third book.
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Called Marketing with AI for Dummies. He is a provocative and prolific poster and his the five marketing truths you won't hear at Cannes, which was also featured in an ad week, caught our eye. So we invited him on the show to riff on some of the things going on in marketing beneath the shiny surface you might have seen at can. Welcome Shiv.
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Thank you for having me on, Mike.
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Great to be here.
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All right, excellent. All right, let's start with can and tear apart the big five. Let's start with your thing that AI is killing jobs. Tell us more.
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So first and Foremost, the AI transformation that we're all hearing about is far greater than even the hype may want us to believe. And it's doing a couple of things in the marketing function and it's starting to, with a lot more to come. Firstly, specific job activities in marketing, most notably around performance marketing, are increasingly being optimized and automated end to end. So what started with the algorithms doing a little bit of magic behind the scenes has now evolved into the algorithms doing practically everything from writing copy to creating audience segments to running the campaigns to actually coming back with the results and leaving little time for us to do much when it comes to the world of creative. And I know I'm going to get in trouble for this one, Mike. The idea of what it means to be creative, what is creativity, is fast changing because we have AI tools and technologies. And I would say the unknown factor in AI that is increasingly able to replicate the way we think and imagine. So that's also having an effect on how we do creative work when it comes to marketing strategy and planning. I was just listening to Joe Fuller, the Harvard Business School professor, and he talked about how knowledge workers are the most at threat in the AI era because we're increasingly moving away from presentations being our deliverables to agents and bots as our deliverables. So imagine that if you're a marketing strategist and you know, I built my career at Pepsi and Visa, and we have large marketing strategy teams alone.
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Yeah.
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Instead of them delivering presentations, we'll be getting bots and coded agents accomplishing tasks as the deliverables. So when you think about it, practically every facet of marketing, everything that's made us proud of the work we do, win awards, build our reputations, is fast changing with AI. And when I say AI, I do not mean it in generic terms. I mean specific facets of AI as well.
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C
I think this is very true. And we also had a show with Michael Treft, the CEO of Code and Theory, who, who said, everyone's a creative now and because you can, it's about creative thinking, it's not about being the creative. I want to go on to your other thing where you said, hey, the CMO role is broken. People have been saying that for a long time. Tell us why it's different this time. Because it was a big part of your post.
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Yeah, without a doubt. So first and foremost, the CMO role, and I say this with incredible empathy, having been in those shoes, both at a late stage startup and then at a brand that had a nearly billion dollar Spend. What's been happening over the years, first and foremost is the job scope, at least when it comes to the job definition on paper has been getting wider and wider, whereas the actual opportunities or the actual resources or the actual swim lanes have been getting more and more blurry with every passing day. So first and foremost, CMOs asked to do a lot more with a lot less. And just as their roles are, they defined a role which, guess what, someone.
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Else in the C suite is given.
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Half the job as well to do. And that alone sets them up for failure. There's this great Gartner study that was done that talked about how 65% of a CMO's role overlaps with another C suite executive's role.
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Two thirds. Two thirds of the role. Two thirds.
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It's mind blowing responsibility, you know, and it reminds me when I was at Lending True lendingtree, one day I woke up and I said, my role is not the chief Marketing officer, I'm the chief Alignment officer because all I do every day is spend my time aligning. And that's not what I built my career on. That's not where I'm adding the most value to the business. But the scopes have gotten so large, they overlap so much. That's what's making the CMO role broken. That's one piece. But Mike, there's more to it than that. You know, I remember the days of the early social media era where Facebook and Google and all these platforms, you know, and now more recently, TikTok even would say, you know, creative on our platform, ad planning and buying on our platform is so special, so unique, you need to develop specialized skills around it. And metrics for us matter very differently. We have our own language of metrics.
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We have. We won't even share with you the algorithm beneath it. Yes.
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So yeah, yeah.
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And that's when I wrote my first book, Social Media Marketing for Dummies. Because I was like, why are these folks complicating marketing and creating greater complexity that has only gotten worse over the years. We now have these platforms, they do an incredible amount for marketing, but they're walled gardens with their own creative formats, their own metrics, their own ways of measuring success. And what it's led to is it's made it incredibly hard for a marketer to assess true performance and take that back to a CFO or the CEO or the board. The walled gardens have been killing the CMOS job. I fundamentally believe that now when you add the layer of AI to it and the newer platforms as well, and the the latest black box, which are the large language models, it's hard to assess performance even more so. The CMO rule is broken partly because of the scope, partly because the walled gardens and increasingly now the retail media networks. Their new generation of walled gardens create more chaos in the ecosystem and harder for the CMO to demonstrate not just their own value, but the value of the marketing function as a whole to the business.
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We. We agree with you. I want to combine your next two can things into one, which is big tech is really running marketing and budgets are distorted. Tell us, you know, put those two together because it comes right after the whole walled garden discussion. It makes perfect sense to me.
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Yeah.
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So.
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So I personally enjoyed being at Cannes. It was wonderful for me. I got to catch up with a lot of friends. I got to see some of the great creative work and I drank some incredible. And I'm a wine drinker, so it was fabulous. But what struck me the most about being in Cannes was how big the presence was of the technology companies. And it was Meta, it was Alphabet and Google, it was then Pinterest, it was TikTok. They also threw the best parties and they had the most interesting demos and experiences. And it was nearly as if they were the king makers. I grew up in the world of marketing where we CMOs ran the show. We were the celebrities in marketing settings. But for the first time, I felt the amount of power and influence. And I mean that as a compliment to these tech giants, not as a criticism in the power that they have in how they own our audiences, how they are increasingly redefining what creative is, how they own the distribution, how they've made such massive investments in AI capital investments. And you see it in their earnings that they also own where AI is going forward. They are the new king makers of can and the new king makers of marketing. If I'm a CMO and I want to try and understand where marketing will be in the next five years time. My best friend and my job is more dependent on a Google than it is on an ad agency, than it is even on my CEO or anyone else.
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C
This is interesting and I think the other thing that has happened on the big tech front is they have convinced an awful lot of people if you can't measure it, you shouldn't actually do it. You know, you should move the money to us. Which I think is also a really interesting marketing play to be having, you know, your super yacht at Cannes where your basic story is we can measure everything. So give us, give us the money. If I'm getting that wrong, tell me.
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Yeah, no, I, I think it's been incredible. I mean when, when I was at LendingTree, a big part of my relationship with Google was we were optimizing our search spend. They were pushing me to do more display, they were selling me on performance max. But more than anything else they were selling me on YouTube as a replacement for TV. And, and they, and, and their argument was we have better metrics. It's an amazing closed loop and we'll deliver you incremental returns. The truth is that was true to a certain extent, but not completely, but.
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It works well for them.
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So without a doubt that happens, that continues to happen. Where Mike, it's about to get even more interesting is as we enter what I refer to as the zero click era of search where people use, whether it's Google search with their AI mode or AI overviews or they use ChatGPT or Perplexity or Claude and they search for content or they look to accomplish tasks but they don't click through to the websites, to the publisher sites, to the brand sites. And all of a sudden now we have these high intent users. Historically they'd go to these platforms and eventually come to us. Now they're not even coming to us. They're staying on the platforms, creating new monetization models for the technology, visibility into them.
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C
Yeah, we did a whole show on this called is your next best customer an AI bot? Let's go to your next, your next and your final five things was can is not for everybody. And, and, and one of the things you, we hear from some of our listeners is gosh, the marketers look really self absorbed at, at can. You know, they're, they're, they're drinking rose, they're doing this thing, they're talking to people that sometimes are even in the same city back home at the regular jobs. Tell us what you Meant by everyone's not everyone, it's not for everybody. And then also, you know, some of the people that are saying maybe this is a self indulgent thing for marketers. Can is not for everybody. You know, some of our listeners will have said, hey, gosh, it looks like a self absorbed bunch of marketers traveling to France when they could meet with each other right where they live.
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Now.
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Tell us what you meant by can is not for everybody. And then the, the self absorbed comment.
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So, Mike, that's a really important question.
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And I'm going to be careful in.
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How I respond because I don't want to upset too many dear friends that.
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I have would like a little upset on the show. So don't hold back.
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All right, look, so I want to begin with a premise that I sit on the board of a $50 billion market cap company that has 30,000 employees. And if I were to tell them that I went to the south of France for a full week drinking rose for a conference, they would laugh in my face and they'd be like, we don't believe that for a second that you were getting any work done whatsoever. I share that because for an industry that's all about building reputation and building brands, we score the ultimate self goal with the way we approach Dan. So regardless of how valuable it may be for marketers and agency leaders and technology companies, and I think anytime you bring a lot of leaders together, yes, goodness comes out of it. That leads to business growth. The optics of it continue to be terrible and I would argue even worse in certain industries, like in construction, like in financial services, where I've built my career, like in travel, even to a certain extent, just to be in that location. You're losing equity within the corporation, you're losing goodness, and then you're spending the next six months trolling to get your seat at the table once again. So that's the first basic challenge. And every year it's the same issue. It doesn't go away. It gets worse and worse. In fact, now what's happened now more, more than it has in the past is the tsunami around AI that we've been talking about is very real. It's very big. If I were the CEO of Cannes, Philip, instead of doing it in the south of France, I would say in 2026, we're going to move it to San Francisco. Because what was also missing in Cannes this year was real substance around AI it was the number one word from a hype standpoint. And it was know on the tip of everyone's tongue. But there was no substance behind it. There was no real conversation around which large language model to use, for which use case. Which AI tool can help you create a piece of creative better than any other? Which agentic AI framework is best used to rip up your marketing function and rebuild it from the ground up? There were not enough substantive conversations around the AI transformation. And I say this very seriously because in other corporate settings, you know, when CFOs come together, when technologists come together, when product leaders come together, when board members come together, they're having more serious, more substance driven conversations around not marketing or how marketing is changing or their field is changing, but how the business world is changing with AI and what's going on in the enterprise, where it's moving fast, where it's moving slowly, what kind of influence OpenAI has and how that gels with what's going on in their corporations. All those hard, serious questions can, for better or worse, where again, it's amazing to bring together everybody between the setting, between the lack of focus around AI and I run an AI trailblazers. You know, it's a, it's a summit and I write books on this stuff and work with startups and big brands. The lack of focus on AI is imagined five years ago. Can doing nothing around digital marketing, it would seem absurd. Part of the challenges. Also coming out of Cannes, there were a lot of conversations about that, you know, and it was in the, on LinkedIn and in the trade publications, how marketers and agency leaders were like, Cannes was special because it was about a return to the fundamentals, about the value of a great idea, about the value of relationships and the value of having a strong brand. Yes, that all still matters, but it only matters in the context of how much our world is changing. And it was completely, I agree with this.
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And I think the other thing is, you know, there's also an awful lot of advertising words given out at Cannes. I think I, I think it's thousands. So when all these people are posting this, I think a lot of the C suite peers are going, come on, we got a lot of work to do. I could be reading that wrong. And maybe I'm just trying to make this a little more edgy, but that feels like, wow, when you're talking about return to basics and you're talking about these awards, if your business isn't doing well and you're not doing execution, I think you could be really hurting your marketing credibility massively.
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And so, you know, along those lines, Mike, some of the best companies that I've seen in this AI era, because we're in this new era, whether we want to accept it or not, are the companies that are throwing out those old marketing playbooks and are going AI native from the start. So what does AI native means? Yeah, it means that you organization design your org design with AI agents side by side with you two. It means that for every task or activity, your go to is to see if an AI agent or an AI technology can solve that problem before a human can. It's a reason why at Google and at Meta, they've had the most number of layoffs in the Bay Area and the most number of the greatest number of profits simultaneously. In fact, just this week, Google announced earnings. They were off the charts. Meta announced earnings. They were off the charts. But their marketing teams are getting smaller and smaller. You need to go AI first and how you structure your organization, the roles you define for your teams, the work that gets done and then how tightly integrated it is into the rest of the business. And that's the conversation that's not happening in Cannes. There are not enough product leaders, there are not enough CFOs, there's definitely nobody or very, very few people from the AI world in Cannes itself. And for the life of me, I can't understand how the biggest advertising, marketing conference or festival in the world can exist without a much stronger business orientation and a much stronger technology orientation. Given this transformation, when we're on the cusp of not even AGI but super intelligence coming our way, it's. It borders on the immoral in a sense.
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C
All right. When you said you weren't going to be provocative and controversial, I think you actually crossed the line. So it's brilliant. I want to talk about another thing about AI you you said. I think it was either in our earlier chatter you posted, AI is making us less intelligent. Tell us what you meant by that.
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F
Yeah, there's. There's actually a lot of good research out on this and I'd say it's making us less intelligent and it's about to make us a lot less intelligent and intelligent. And I'll come to the latter in a moment. We're already at a point, if we know how to treat these AI tools as an equal partner, where they are able to do as good work as we can in many fields and for many types of activities and don't listen to me. There was this, and this is what I referred to at the start, this wonderful interview between the OpenAI chief economist and this Harvard Business School professor just Yesterday and It's on the OpenAI events page. And I talked about in some industries, 70% of the jobs are going to go to AI and away from human beings. They'll create new jobs too. Don't get me wrong. But that shift is happening on a more specific sense. What it translates into is for us to do our best work, we should depend on AI anywhere and wherever we can. And that's a good thing. But it does come with a critical cost. It's just sort of when Google Maps first came out, I was able to find where I needed to go far more easily. Navigation became a breeze, but there was a piece in my brain. My, my sort of my mental compass for the world around me started to corrode and it's been corroding ever since. And if someone gives me a street address in San Francisco, I can't find it without Google Maps. If they give me a physical map of San Francisco, it's still hard for me to find that street. I get lost far more easily without my phone. So that's already happened with wayfinding and navigation, and that's just one tiny example. Now you extrapolate that to all the kinds of activities we can partner with AI on to do our jobs. If I'm looking for a piece of inspiration, if I'm looking for, if I'm writing an email, if I'm analyzing a document, if I'm supposedly trying to run an SQL query on a massive table and I'm using AI with me for every step of the way, guess what happens? My own capability starts to degrade again more and more to the point where AI becomes my boss because I can't do anything without it.
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C
I'm just thinking, I'm just thinking if the if can move to San Francisco and Google Maps went down, no one would be able to make the event.
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F
We have to do it before it's too late. So anyway, so that's the first piece. The other piece I want to just very quickly touch on and I think it's super important is so we're already seeing that happen, happening with corrosion of our intelligence. And we have to practice to do things in the old world to stay sharp with the AI. It's nearly as if like there were certain activities I needed to do to stay clever with my kids. Now I have to stay sharp and train myself.
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C
So. So give me some recommendations for in this new world. What's a marketer to do? I mean, the CMO job is, you know, the five things they didn't tell you account where that, that's, that's not actually massively uplifting. So let's talk about what marketers should be doing right now.
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F
Okay, I'll, I'll first put two things to one side right away. There's, there's a great book I know that everyone should read. I don't need to mention it by name again. But you can guess the book I'm talking about.
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C
You want to hold it up? We can guess it. Yeah.
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F
So, so that's the first piece, you know, the second piece, and I think it's super important is, you know, we, we want to, everyone's talking about, you know, let's do an analysis, let's bring in some tools, let's do a little bit of cute experimentation on the side. Let's go attend a few conferences, let's seek out which are the three or four use cases and go deep with them. That's, that's the way we all are thinking about this change. I would argue that's going to lead to failure and loss of jobs or the CMO's own job.
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What I think is far more important.
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Is first and foremost is to understand the technology. Marketing as a function cannot survive anymore without the marketers being technologists at the same time.
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E
So, you know, if you're looking at.
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F
The very basics we all know, Google search, you know, that's, I don't know, half or a quarter of all marketing spend in the world. We know that's been changed dramatically. We're already seeing that changes. Do you as a marketer know exactly how the large language models work? Do you know what it means to be deterministic versus probabilistic? Do you know when someone search for your brand in ChatGPT, what the first result will be and what the 50th result will be? Do you know why your consumers use Claude in certain ways and why it works in a certain fashion versus perplexity? Do you know how to code your own AI agents? I was having a conversation with the chief consumer products officer at Visa at a last summit and I said, tell me fundamentally what's been changed? And he was changed. And he said it best. He said, our business partners at Visa, and he's like, that means the marketers and the product leaders, instead of giving the technologists specifications and strategies and presentations, they're now giving them food. So if so, one, you need to know the technology and understand the foundational models. Two, you need to be coding yourself and it's vibe coding.
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C
I'm not saying you can do vibe coding with lovable. You can do, you can get love. Lot of stuff you can do.
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F
Yeah, it's, it's a new language of communication. And as Mark says, we're fundamentally communicators. Third, you need to be able to imagine where and how your brand will live in the future. And there's a lot of noise and super talk around it. But there's a very important letter that was published two days ago on Wednesday, or maybe it was Tuesday, and that was Mark Zuckerberg's letter when they announced that blowout. Crazy, amazing earnings. Yes. And what he, what he said very specifically was he said, super intelligence is in our line of sight.
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That's mind blowing.
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F
And he said we're going to use it to empower users and individuals. So just to clarify, super intelligence means we have something, I'm going to call it something at our fingertips. It could be through our glasses, it could be on our phone, it could be in our ear. Each of us will have something that is a hundred times more intelligent than any single individual human being or the human species in combination. And he said, that's insight, which means five to 10 years. Now, just imagine when we have that as our personal tool and we'll be paying monthly subscriptions for it and all of that student stuff, we'll still be making brand decisions, we'll still be shopping, sometimes ourselves, sometimes with AI agents, etc. How will we be making those decisions? And what type of brands built in which ways will be the ones that will sell, survive in that world when we have our super intelligent agents or things with us? Those are the deeper questions that every marketer needs to understand and think about. So foundation models, you got to know how to work with the agentic AI world and you got to treat coding as your language of communication. And you've got to prepare for this future of super intelligence that is fast coming our way. And the only way to do that is to move Cannes from the south of France. And I'm a Francophile because I'm a wine drinker, so it pains me to say this to San Francisco. So you're seeing what's going on here, and you're building companies from the ground up. Nothing had happened before, I'm willing to bet my mike. Sorry, if you were to go back into an operational role, you would tear up the old design. That's what's needed.
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C
All right, I think this is a great way to get to our traditional last question, because there's an awful lot for everyone listening to think about There. Our traditional last question is two parter, funniest story you can tell on the air or practical advice we haven't talked about yet. You can take both of those or one, but you must take at least one.
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D
So knock yourself out.
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F
Okay, thank you. I'm going to start with some practical advice, which is, you know, every week is a tsunami in the world of AI. Not only are we seeing huge change, but we're seeing such a rapid cadence of change.
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E
The most recent example is barely a.
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F
Week ago, ChatGPT and OpenAI launched ChatGPT agents. You know, and you can go and give them activities to do and.
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E
And they go and run around to do them.
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F
My practical advice is, if you're a cmo, if you're a marketing leader, if you're a business leader with some of these innovations that come out, give your teams just one week and they get a Friday morning assignment where they have to do a show and tell on how they have played around or used that new innovation. And every week. So it's been a full week since we've had the ChatGPT agents. If I were enrolled, I would say, okay, it's been a week. Have any of you, tell me what you got?
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C
I think great advice.
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F
What have you learned from it? That would be the first piece of advice. Second thing I would say is I would, I would spend a lot of. I would want to do a knowledge exchange or not just a knowledge exchange. I would want to donate, you know, a fourth of my marketing function or send them on loan to the technology team, saying, you know, I'm going to find ways to get the work done without 25% to my department. I want them to shadow the folks in the technology function that are working on anything AI. I'm sure it'll probably be more junior folks, but I was like, that's the only way we start to learn the language of technology. Because what worries me and stresses me about in my stage of my career is I think the next generation of marketers, they're probably going to be a lot fewer of them and they're going to have much harder jobs. And it's, it's for us to do everything we can to set them up for greater success. And sometimes it's, it's, you know, taking the hard message, which is, go turn yourself into a technologist or shoving them away, telling them, don't aspire to be like me when you grow up. Aspire to be like a Sam Altman or a Satya Nadella or somebody else and learn that language. So that's the second thing. Push your marketers into technology and then maybe the final thing I would say is we are in an incredible era of solo entrepreneurship and you touched upon this mike too.
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E
Each of us can be both specialists.
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F
And generalists at once. We can do so much more, each and every one of us. Especially if you're building your career, go develop a side hustle that could maybe.
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C
Turn into like a podcast.
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F
Exactly. Could turn into a multi billion dollar business or not. But using these tools, thinking about yourself as having superhuman powers will allow you to just do so much more. Both in your day job, in your night job, in your life as a whole. Embrace this as a transformative future that could make you leap forward in incredible ways. It's not all frightening, it's not all scary. Even though, I mean it's not all.
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C
The Borg and Star Trek. It's better. So all you marketers out.
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F
You heard it.
- [38:29]
C
Giddy up, let's go. Thank you Shiv for joining us and thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. If you're enjoying the show, please like share and subscribe. Look for all of our shows on Spotify, Apple and YouTube which include it's a Bird, It's a Plane. Holy It's AI Parts one and two. Is your next best customer an AI bot? Synthetic Influencers should brands do it themselves? And why? Your current AI strategy needs to be a lot more than tools and efficiency. Hey all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.
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D
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- [39:26]
F
Touchpoint.
- [39:28]
D
Their AI native design transforms manual marketing tasks into automated workflows that create personalized text, imagery and video at enterprise scale. Typefaces AI integrates with existing martech stacks through APIs and native connections so you keep your processes while gaining AI superpowers and enterprise grade security. See how brands like Asics and Microsoft accelerate innovation and transform a single idea into thousands of personalized on brand experiences Instantly ready to see what marketing looks like when AI handles the heavy lifting? Learn more at Typeface aicmo.