The Top Mistakes CMO's Make During the Interview Process | Kate Bullis & David Wiser | ZRG Partners

Summary

Podcast Summary: CMO Confidential

Episode: The Top Mistakes CMOs Make During the Interview Process
Host: Mike Linton
Guests: Kate Bullis & David Wiser (ZRG Partners)
Date: September 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the most common (and often costly) mistakes Chief Marketing Officers (CMOs) make during the job interview process. Veteran executive search leaders Kate Bullis and David Wiser of ZRG Partners join host Mike Linton to discuss why marketing leaders—despite being analytical and strategic—often underperform as job candidates. Using a sports analogy (“pre‑game, game time, post‑game”), the episode delivers practical advice for CMOs on self-awareness, preparation, interview performance, and negotiation, with candid stories from the search trenches.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

State of the 2025 CMO Job Market

[03:09–06:34]

• AI dominates conversation and transformation is either an existential threat or huge opportunity.
• Strong demand for executive search, especially at large enterprises undergoing AI shifts and at AI-native startups. Middle-market tech firms lag due to the resource demands of transformation.
  • “Companies that are being born and the massive companies that are transforming—that’s where the bulk of the opportunity in new leadership roles is happening. The middle…don’t have necessarily the bulk and the wherewithal to make it.” – Kate Bullis [05:37]

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Pre-Game: Preparation Mistakes

[07:24–17:07]

Mistake 1: Not Knowing Thyself

• Many candidates fail to truly analyze and articulate their career patterns and value:
  • Are you a builder, optimizer, or fixer?
  • What size or stage company is your “sweet spot”?
  • What customer types or go-to-market models do you excel at (SMB vs. enterprise, etc.)?
• Quote: “If you really understand your own strengths, you really help yourself in essentially product market fit. So think about yourself as a product in the market.” – Kate Bullis [07:27]
• The majority lack self-awareness or mistake wishful thinking for actual, demonstrated strengths.

Mistake 2: No “Shopping List”

• Most candidates do not objectively list or rank what they want in their next role (industry, company size, comp, location, reporting structure, etc.).
  • Quote: “Different things are important to different people… Step number one is separate the opportunity and just list for yourself what’s most important to you.” – David Wiser [12:53]
• Failing to do this leads candidates to be swayed by “shiny objects” and make poor-fit decisions.

If You’re Not Prepared

• Search partners may try to help if the lack of prep is paired with self-awareness and humility, but “preparation gap” can get candidates cut if it signals trouble.

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Game Time: Interview Execution Mistakes

[17:07–25:30]

Mistake 1: Playbooking

• Candidates assume that what worked before will just drop into the new role (“airlifting the playbook”).
  • Quote: “Every playbook must be invented anew in every company… If you bring a playbook mentality, you bring one of assumption. And we know where assuming brings us.” – Kate Bullis [17:40]
• Organizations now reject “playbook” mentality more than ever (especially in B2B).

Mistake 2: Product Pushing

• Talking only about their own achievements and experience (“I did this, I built that”) instead of being curious and engaging about the company’s needs.
  • Example: Bringing a literal portfolio binder to an interview—unasked.
  • “You're missing the opportunity to be curious and really engage in a conversation…” – Kate Bullis [20:10]
• Rooted in overselling and lack of awareness.

Mistake 3: Disengagement

• Lack of research or energy in the interview. Asking questions easily answerable from public info signals laziness/disinterest.
  • Quote: “Do your homework. Bring some energy. … A lot of people lose the game in the questions that they ask or don't ask.” – David Wiser [22:14]
• Best approach: Show you’ve thought specifically about this company and ask questions with a hypothesis/opinion.

The Most Common Mistake: Talking Too Much

[26:08–27:07]

• Candidates who ramble lose attention and leave a poor impression.
  • “The average attention span for an adult is 20 to 30 seconds… After 30 seconds, you start sounding like that teacher on the Peanuts cartoon.” – David Wiser [26:18]

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Post-Game: After the Interview Mistakes

[27:41–39:58]

Scenario 1: You Get the Offer…And Blow the Negotiation

• Overly aggressive or disorganized negotiation can turn off the company and get the offer rescinded, or sour the relationship before starting.
  • “If something is very important to you, that’s fair, but you want to share it early and be really transparent…” – Kate Bullis [27:41]
  • One “ask” is standard; going back with a laundry list is a red flag.

Scenario 2: You Get the Offer but Decline It (the Wrong Way)

• Never let an offer get to paper if you seriously foresee declining. Air out issues beforehand.
  • Quote: “Frankly, you should never turn down a written offer… That’s the equivalent of me getting down on one knee, holding out the ring… and she says no.” – David Wiser [32:48]
• Turning down written offers, especially after board-level approvals, may land you on a “blacklist.”
  • “In 31 years, I've accumulated 187 names on my blacklist.” – David Wiser [34:06]

Scenario 3: You Lose Out—Make It Worse with Poor Behavior

• Some candidates sour or “ghost” their contacts, burning bridges after not getting the job.
  • Quote: “You have invested a lot of time and so has this company in getting to know each other… How you leave the situation gracefully is everything.” – Kate Bullis [35:49]
• The gracious, professional runner-up is often called back when a first choice fails or for future opportunities.

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Memorable Quotes & Practical Advice

On Change Leadership

• “Any opportunity that a CMO is considering is first and foremost an opportunity to lead change… Change leadership first. Marketing second.” – Kate Bullis [41:08]

On Interview Performance

• “Most people stretch a 30 second answer into two minutes and after 30 seconds, you start sounding like that teacher on the Peanuts cartoon.” – David Wiser [26:18]
• “Be the executive that says, ‘I didn’t lose here. I gained—relationships, insight and knowledge.’” – Kate Bullis [38:48]

On Video Interviews (Funny Story)

• “He stands up, he’s got boxer shorts on, very nice collared shirt, but boxer shorts, leaves his desk, comes back… Maybe we just do a phone call.” – David Wiser [42:28]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Job Market Overview: [03:09–06:34]
• Preparation Mistakes: [07:24–17:07]
• Interview/Execution Mistakes: [17:07–25:30]
• Talking Too Much (Most Common Mistake): [26:08–27:07]
• Post-Game/Negotiation: [27:41–39:58]
• Practical & Funny Advice: [40:43–43:19]

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Summary Table: Top Mistakes

| Stage | Mistake | Solution / Advice | |---------------|-------------------------------|----------------------------------------| | Pre-Game | Lack of self-awareness | Perform an honest career “market analysis”; recognize your build/optimize/fix fit. | | Pre-Game | No “shopping list” | Rank your priorities for your next job; weigh offers accordingly. | | Game Time | Playbooking | Don’t assume your old “playbook” is a fit—be present, adaptable. | | Game Time | Product pushing | Be curious, engage, don’t just pitch your resume. | | Game Time | Disengagement/lack of prep | Research deeply; demonstrate you care about this company. | | Game Time | Talking/running too long | Keep answers tight—20‑30 seconds per response! | | Post-Game | Over-negotiation or secrecy | Be open, prioritize asks, don’t play games—protect relationships. | | Post-Game | Declining after written offer | Air out issues early—never surprise with a no. | | Post-Game | Poor “grace in loss” | Leave doors open, maintain relationships, be professional. |

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Final Takeaways

CMO job hunts are high-stakes, high-visibility, and fraught with pitfalls even for seasoned executives. Self-awareness, preparation, humility, and authentic engagement are the differentiators. A little self-reflection, clear communication, and grace go a long way—before, during, and after the process.

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Listen to the full episode for more stories and actionable advice!

Transcript

[A]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential.

[B]

The podcast that takes you inside the.

[C]

Drama, decisions and choices that go with.

[B]

Being the Head of marketing.

[C]

Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton.

[D]

Typeface helps the world's biggest brands move from business brief to fully personalized campaigns in hours, not months with its Agentic AI marketing platform. They are the first enterprise platform with agentic AI marketing workflows designed to instantly automate work that used to take weeks. With Typeface, one campaign scales into thousands of personalized experiences across ads, email and video while staying true to your brand. The company's AI native platform integrates seamlessly into your martech stack and marketing workflows and includes enterprise grade security. Adweek named Typeface AI Company of the Year. Time Magazine featured them as a best invention and Fast Company called them the next big thing in tech. See how major brands like Asics and Microsoft are transforming marketing with Typeface. Learn more at typeface AI/cmo welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of Marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy, eBay, FarmersInsurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guests Kate Bullis and David Weiser. Today's topic the top mistakes CMOs make during the Interview Process. Now Kate and David are the Global Marketing Practice leaders and Managing partners of zrg. They have the longest business cards probably of anybody and they are both marketing champions. They were guests on one of our most popular shows, the top five mistakes CEOs and boards make when hiring a CMO, where they clustered these mistakes into movie themes. So for today's topic we have a sports analogy, pre game game time and post game about the entire interview process. Now full disclosure, I've known Kate and David for a number of years. Welcome back to the show Kate and David.

[B]

Thanks for having us.

[E]

Thank you Mike. Good to be here.

[D]

All right, let's start before we even get into the theme of the show, let's start by you all telling us about the job market. How are things looking in 2025, you know, everyone's talking about AI, the economy, tariff, blah, political, it's all kinds of stuff. Tell us what's going on in the job market from your seats.

[B]

I think, I think you've said a mouthful already. It's AI, AI, AI. And I think that, you know, with change comes opportunity. Every time we see fluctuations or changes in the economy and the market, we search and surge. I would say that so far this year, we're having a pretty close to a record year in terms, in terms of new search work open.

[D]

And that's for you, you all or the whole market? Because I know you guys are killing it, but how about the whole market?

[B]

Well, you mean outside of marketing?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, just in marketing, leadership and then all a business.

[B]

Yeah. David, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm remembering the stats so far for ZRG this year. And I know that in last quarter we had a record quarter, not just year over year, but in the history of zrg. And so, and that's across the business, across all of executive search, financial services, industrial tech, retail, cpg. David, any other comment?

[E]

Well, you know, what we've been all talking about the last six months are tariffs and trade deals. And I was optimistic, like many back at the, you know, in January, that this would, this would settle at some point. I think since the trade deals are settling, tariffs seem to be calming down. That's, that's opened up a lot of investment, you know, this big, beautiful law. The politics aside, I know a lot of our private equity clients are excited about it because it makes permanent, you know, 100% depreciation on capital equipment. PE's got a short life cycle. You know, that's great for the books. We're starting to see some more buying at the top to create that, that suction and that flywheel in the middle market. Certainly in private equity, I will say our partners in Europe still say things are a bit soft. Kate, wouldn't you say that's sort of the, the tone from Europe and Asia, US is a little different?

[B]

Yeah. And I would say the, the last thing there is, is I'm, I'm starting to see a kind of a tale of two, two cities, companies that are being born and the massive companies that are transforming. That's where the bulk of the opportunity in new leadership roles is happening. The stuff in the middle, the middle markets, the, when I say middle market, and I'm, and I'm referring a lot to, to, to especially to technology here, these companies don't have necessarily the bulk and the wherewithal and the resources to make it to transform into AI. And so these AI transformations of companies of size and scale and consequence, they've got it, they've got the ability to do it. It might be a little hard, but they're going to make it. And then that were born in AI, they're the ones that are native guys.

[D]

Are going to just run away with it. We've had a bunch of guests say the middle is nowhere to be in any of these games and I hear you emphasizing that. So it's time for CMO Confidential game time. Now that we've set the stage for all the interviews you might be going on out there in the marketplace, let's talk about the mistakes marketers make when they interview. You know your early show set a super high bar. It's one of our most popular shows and we here at though at CMO Confidential are certain you're going to jump over that bar. So if you're ready, let's go. First up, pre game, the preparation. You call out a bunch of stuff in preparation. Let's, let's hear the mistakes folks make in preparation.

[B]

Shall I start?

[E]

Fire away.

[B]

I'll, I'll start with Know thyself. Know thyself. Really understand what your own strengths and weaknesses are, what your differentiators are in the CMO market. How can you begin the search of of for a next opportunity simply by looking at, you know, similar companies in terms of product or industry. If you really understand your own strengths, you really help yourself in essentially product market fit. So think about yourself as a product in the market and ask yourself not only you know, what are my strengths as like brand versus demand generation versus product marketing excellence. Think about the patterns that you identify, can identify in your own career around things like company moment. Are you someone who's done more work in the, you know the, the growth phase of a business versus the transformation phase or early, early startup phase? What about customer. Are you someone who really knows a certain customer segment very well? SMB versus say enterprise? Because that says a lot about your excellence in go to market motion. You know, what are your, what do you know as far as buyer and Persona? What, what things do you bring to the table across a lot of the different positions you've had that allow you to be really dangerous as compared to your your peers and how does that help in this in the companies that you go after?

[D]

So two follow ons on that one. This is like a marketplace analysis of yourself along with pattern recognition. But the fact that you're bringing up it as a mistake to me says an awful lot of people actually are not taking a hard look at themselves. Like they might look at the marketplace for their brand or business.

[B]

And I should have said that right from the start. That's exactly right. We just don't see it enough. You know, I am personally surprised by how often an executive is not really recognizing the pattern of, of their entire career and are are not elevating those patterns out and bringing them into the decision making on what companies they should actually go after.

[D]

So. Oh, go ahead, David.

[E]

I was just going to say I may be repackaging what Kate said here with this first point, but now that I'm in my fourth decade of recruiting, I realized in probably year two or three that there's three jobs you could step into. You're building it, you're optimizing it, or you're fixing it. And a lot of jobs have elements of all three. But fundamentally, any business at any point in time is going to be defined in one of those ways. When I was recruiting for dotcoms back in 1996, 97, the big mistake was you had CPG people who were largely optimizers, big company optimizers move into a high growth build it role and they were just not skilled to do that. The builders and the fixers tend to have the same motivations and a lot of the same skills. Optimizer, it's a different skill set. There's. It's not like one is better or worse than the other. But to Kate's point, you have to really define which bucket you fit in and those are the opportunities that you should pursue.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

Now back to our episode with Kate Bullis and David Weiser and this.

[D]

So what you both are saying is you gotta take a really objective look at yourself. Look for patterns and patterns that you can prove versus patterns you wish you had. And then also one of the Other things that you talked about is you got to have kind of an imagination to see yourself and the opportunity in the preparation. Tell us about that.

[E]

Well, one, one suggestion we started making a long time ago and we actually laid this out in a spreadsheet and we share it with candidates. You know, marketers are great at analytics, but they're not great at analyzing themselves. I mean, you kind of made that point like a minute ago. Understand what's on your shopping list, right? Different things are important to different people. Is it industry? Is it, is it company ownership? Is it size and scale of business? Again, is it build, fix, optimize? Am I more about cash or equity? Does location matter? Who am I going to report? There's an endless number of things that could be important to you as you shop for a job. Step number one is separate the opportunity and just list for yourself what's most important to you.

[D]

And do a lot of people not do that? Because that's like going to the grocery store without a list.

[E]

You know what, Mike? That's exactly right. A lot of people will tell me that I'm doing that in my head, and they are. But here's the problem. You get to a new opportunity and there's some super shiny object feature about that, and you get all focused on it, only to realize, geez, that was kind of in the middle of my list. That wasn't even considered a critical factor. So rank those factors from most important to least important. Put a spreadsheet together. Column A is opportunity one, column B is opportunity two. And when you look at a role, that's your checklist. That's what you should be asking recruiters about. That's what you should be asking hiring managers about. And then you can objectively step back and see how that role really lines up against what's important to you. And you can score it.

[D]

Hey, let me ask you that. So when you two are recruiting candidates and we're just in the pregame, the preparation, and they are not really self aware and they don't really have this list, do they fall down in the, in the process with you or do you fix them up and then send them out? Or is it all situational?

[B]

I would, if I'm being honest, it's. It's situational. Especially if, if we see it, if we see the pattern or we see the opportunity. So often, you know, I'm approaching someone about an opportunity and just because it's not on the list doesn't mean it isn't potentially exciting. I mean, I'm Thinking about a major search I'm conducting right now where, you know, people just don't even see something like this coming.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And so having the list is important, but it shouldn't dictate everything. In the end, I think that, you know, we all know that the data will be in front of you, but in the end, you will go with your gut.

[D]

And so if I am a candidate and I don't haven't done a great job at preparation, if I'm really good or good for the job, you two will buck me up and get me there. And if I'm not good, you might strike me out. Is that right?

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

The only dangerous thing about that is actually the very end. What if it's a super building block, important thing to the executive and it's not being addressed in the opportunity, but a bunch of other things are.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

We all might be sorry at the altar.

[D]

Got it.

[B]

Because it'll.

[E]

Michael, I've said time and time again that Kate and I are in the retention business. We're not in the acquisition business. You know, our job is not to just get somebody into a role or get somebody hired. It's to get them into the right role where a year from now they get promoted. That's the sign of a successful search. And if somebody comes to an interview with us and they haven't really sorted this out, I think Kate's spot on. It depends on how they react to the conversation. If they recognize they haven't really organized who am I and what do I want to do? But they're open to it and they'll go through the exercise with us and there's some self awareness and some humility. I'll invest in that all day long.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[D]

Okay, great. So preparation is over. It's game time. You're going to the interview. You've made it through the tough ZRG screen. And the companies looked at it and said, all right, I want to talk to your candidate. You say there's three in game mistakes. We'll take them in order. Playbooking, product pushing and disengagement. Let's start with the playbooking mistake. This is during the interview. So here we go. Playbooking.

[B]

Yeah. So I'll. I'll start on playbooking. When we say playbooking, this is when a CMO assumes that work that they've done in their prior life absolutely applies here. And the way they were successful before is just airlifted and dropped down into the new situation. And. And just because there are similar similarities In a situation doesn't mean that the playbook is the answer. And so absolutely bring relevant experience, bring relevant knowledge, bring relevant plays. But every playbook must be invented anew in every, every company. I think we would argue this all day long. AI makes this only even truer. And I think that in the end, if you bring a playbook mentality, you bring one of assumption. And we know where assuming brings us.

[D]

Hey, I won't go to the grade school thing. But what you're saying is this, as a cmo, during the interview process or whatever job is going to pound that square peg into that round hole because they know they have the answer and they think they're being hired for the answer, but it is actually not why they're being hired. And those guys get scratched. I mean, those interviews, they get scratched pretty fast by the company. And then do they feed back to you all and say, what the hell? How did you not get through this playbook, guy?

[B]

Yeah. Yes. And, and I do think it's my job and David's to make sure that stuff like that just doesn't happen. But it, but we've seen it happen and it actually kind of relates to the, the second. The product pushing.

[D]

Product pushing you back.

[B]

That, you know, this is, this is kind of a classic look at this. How about this? I, I, you know, I, I did this and I did that in, in their zeal. Right. In their, in the zeal to share how relevant my experience is to this opportunity. The, the, the opportunity is absolute. The bigger opportunity, which is the, the, the recognition that this interview is actually a mini, you know, example of what it's like to work with me.

[F]

Yes.

[B]

And so when, when I'm interviewing with you and, and I'm doing nothing but, and this and this and this. Because you're assuming that that's what the interviewer wants to know. You're missing the opportunity to be curious and really engage in a conversation that says, I have a lot of experience, I believe a lot of it is relevant, but let's have a conversation about it.

[D]

Are playbooking and product pushing versions of overselling?

[B]

Yes.

[D]

Yeah. David, what do you think?

[E]

Yeah, you know, the going back to lack of awareness. Yeah, lack of awareness for sure. This may be an extreme analogy, but we've all seen those social media clips where some celebrity gets pulled over on the 101. They've been weaving for three miles and, and CHP pulls them over and inevitably they drop it. Right. Do you know who I am? It's, it's kind of A version of that. Right. And it just comes across to your point as not humble, not aware. It just, it doesn't work.

[D]

And there is there also a too eager component of product pushing where I want this job so bad. I'm not going to have a discussion. I'm just going to overwhelm you with all my talent.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I. I can think of an example where an executive brought. Now, this is. This is the high 90s, but it was, it was so. It was such a stunning example of this, of this subject that I have to share it. The individual brought a binder.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I've had them to the interview and whipped out the binder and started showing the executive examples. And the executive, like, don't care, didn't ask.

[D]

I have a note from my friend about how good I am. How about. And your third thing, Disengagement. David, do you want to talk about disengagement?

[E]

Yeah, I think, frankly, this is probably the biggest issue. And there's a. You want to go to the dance with somebody who wants to go with you. And there's a lot of ways to show engagement. That's where it gets a little bit tricky. But what I look for, and I think what most people who are hiring look for is, have you done your homework? Do you really understand who we are? Don't ask me questions that you could have answered on your own. Right.

[D]

What's a good example of that?

[E]

Of, Well, I had an. I had an interview last week with. With a candidate for a publicly traded health care company who is asking me questions that they could have found in the recent filings. And I said, have you looked at the recent filings? Well, no, I haven't.

[D]

Wow.

[E]

Take a look. It's those kinds of things, right? Do your homework. Bring some energy. And again, that's different for different people. You know, Mike Krzyzewski, Energy versus Bobby Knight, Energy. Those are two different things, but they both show it. I think a lot of people lose the game in the questions that they ask or don't ask.

[B]

Don't ask.

[E]

They're asking, again, obvious questions that they could have answered. One technique that I shared with people that's pretty effective. You state the question, you very quickly work in a hypothesis, and then you restate the question. Right. So, Mike, what's the situation with the company right now? As I looked at the numbers, they look a little bit flat. They look flat in Europe, they look flat in the U.S. looks like they need. So I'm just curious what's. Just show Some engagement by having done your homework and bring an opinion when you ask that question.

[D]

Implied in that is I've digested all the publicly available stuff in addition to the spec. Thought about it. And then I'm going to ask you a question that says I'm at the table already.

[B]

And notice that that isn't necessarily defined as a marketing question. The only thing that that does is demonstrate that this is an ex. I am an executive that cares about the business. Now how I can add to the.

[E]

The.

[B]

The goals of this business is via marketing. But the goals of the business are this. And I'm, I'm looking at the numbers. I'm. And I'm wondering what are the. And then I. It's my job to figure out how marketing can help to fix that.

[D]

I like that. So what percent of candidates make one of these three mistakes?

[E]

Roughly the majority, I would say.

[D]

Is that right? So over 50 of people.

[E]

But that's not a death sentence. Any one of these may not be a killer.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

If they're doing all three, there's a very slim chance they're going to get hired.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

But.

[B]

Yeah, and I would argue that playbooking in, in right now, in especially in B2B. It used to be the opposite. It used to be that everybody wanted the playbook.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

Bring.

[B]

Bring the playbook. Show me that. You know the movie and, and just. And like I said, airlift it. And it's the exact opposite now. It's the. Any sniff of someone who just thinks that they can bring with the way they did it before, there's the door.

[D]

Well, yeah. Prove you can think. So the game is over and it's post game. You know, there's three things that happen post game. You get the job, you take it, you get the job. You don't take it, you don't get the job. You guys had three heirs. You guys are really good. The two of you are coming in threes here. You want to take them in order. You know, you're the one. Congratulations. And then you managed to mess it up. Let's talk about what happens.

[E]

Hey, Mike, before we do that, can I backpedal for one second?

[D]

Of course.

[E]

So we didn't put this on the list, but if you, if you said, what's the one mistake that most people make in interviewing either with Kate or I or with a client.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

In my opinion, it's talking too much. That is the single biggest mistake on my link. I don't do a lot of writing, but on my LinkedIn page, there's an article I wrote a couple years ago called 30 Seconds, I think it's actually pretty funny, but it applies both inside of work and outside of work. The average attention span for an adult is 20 to 30 seconds. And if you don't think you can answer the question in 30 seconds, you're not pushing yourself. Most people stretch a 30 second answer into two minutes and after 30 seconds, you start sounding like that teacher on the Peanuts cartoon. That's exactly right. They won't hear it. Keep it tight. You can cover more ground. You're going to be more memorable. It's the number one mistake. Just tighten it up.

[D]

Also the other thing, there's those people that can talk while they're inhaling and you don't get a chance for them to take a breath. And I'm like, I would always tell my team, if you are doing that, stop it.

[E]

That's right.

[D]

Not talk while you are inhaling. And I don't even know how you do that, but stop it. So. So. All right, let's go to post game. You guys can. We'll take them in the order they're on the sheet. You're the one. Congratulations. But you're gonna blow it because who's taking this one?

[B]

All right, all right, I'll take it. So this is the, this is the mistake that happens when you've been offered the job and you want the job and you're. You have every intention of accepting the job, but you blow it in the negotiation of the compensation package. This is when it. When typically that, that's, that's what really goes awry. And you wind up turning the company off so much in your negotiation that the offer winds up being rescinded. And we have seen this before, and this is when people like David and myself can really help if the executive allows us to. If something is very important to you, that's fair, but you want to share it a early and be in a really transparent way with everyone in the process who's important. That means us, meaning David and myself, as well as the person on the other side of the table. And if it doesn't transpire that that important thing can be achieved, what you don't want to do is combine the disappointment with that with an assumption that the company doesn't get you or doesn't care. And then you get a little snippy, you get. You push too hard, you ask for too many other things to make up for it, and everything just goes. You've got to really come to the table with an open Open heart and, and, and open mind and implied in.

[D]

This from the two of you. You're also saying, look, you probably get one. One ask here to go back at it and maybe then a little counter on the ask. But if you are coming back with four or five things, everyone is going to think, oh, my God, this is a problem. Is, Is. Am I looking at that right or not?

[B]

I would argue that. No, I mean, you can, you can say, here are all the things that I would love to negotiate. Thank you for the offer. And here are all the things that I would really like to change. It's David, in my. Okay. A. That's a lot of things. That's. That's seven things or five things. You know what? And they might all be important, but you have to have your priorities because we're all adults here and we know that it's not likely that all of them are about to come true.

[F]

Yeah.

[D]

And David, when you have this problem, do a lot of people go directly to the company or. Because my thing is they should always go to YouTube first.

[E]

Some go directly to the company, some will work it through us. You know, the things that typically will blow up are about comp or about location and maybe even about title. Right. We've gone to market with a senior VP Marketing title. It's offer time. You get the offer. I really want a chief in there.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

Right. Or I want more money more than what Kate or I ever said was even on the table. Or I know I could. I, I said I could be there every other week for three days. I could be there once, once a month for two days. Those are the moving of the goal posts that can blow this stuff up.

[D]

And, and that will often cost you the job. Right?

[E]

Yeah. And even if it doesn't, Kate's right. I've. We've seen a lot of offers rescinded, but I would say maybe even worse is you still get hired, you still go there, but everyone's got a bad taste in their mouth. That is not the right way to get started in a new job.

[B]

No. And then the last thing I would just say, this is super important. Have your asks, don't ask, don't get. I get it. Right. You're allowed to ask. But know what is an absolute versus nice to have and be honest about it? If you want this job, let's get there. Right. And if, if, if, if I say to the executive, I'm going to ask, but we're not likely to get it all.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

You need to be really clear. If I ask for this, and I get it. Am I going to get a yes?

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

The executive on the other side, my client, the hiring manager, is about to ask for something specially true on stock brands. And that's. That's political capital that you're asking that hiring manager to invest in. If. If you still say no after we. We achieve it. That's a bad look.

[D]

Everyone loses there. Let's talk about when the candidate decides to say no. This is also a mistake people make. Kate started last time on that one. So, David, you want to start on this one?

[E]

Yeah, I'm going to. This going to sound like an absolute, and I will say there are situations where I understand why it happens, but frankly, you should never turn down a written offer. Never. There shouldn't be a surprise in that offer. Both parties should have had that conversation throughout the process. If you let a company make a written offer to you, that's the equivalent of me getting down on one knee, holding out the ring to Kate and saying, will you marry me? And she says no. Right. That should never happen. All right. Anything that would have been a showstopper, you should have ironed that out a long time ago. And when a written offer is turned down, everybody loses. Everybody's pissed off.

[B]

Yeah. Talk about political capital at that stage. That's a lot of work that just went down the drain.

[D]

And if I'm a candidate and I was one of your candidates, and this happened where, you know, the candidate turns down a written offer, especially if they had to go to the board and get stock approved or something else, then have to go back as the manager go. You know, actually, you know, Kate turned down David on this marriage thing. I got to put the stock back in the pool and go back to search. How much does that carry around in your head for that candidate for the rest of the candidate's life?

[E]

Oh, that's. For me, that's easy. In 31 years, I've accumulated 187 names on my blacklist.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

Blacklist means I would never present you as a candidate. And if you call me and need people, I wouldn't do work for you.

[D]

That's a lot of names.

[E]

187. Well, over 30 years. But. But really, I think. And again, there are situations where it happens and for some reason people couldn't foresee, or, hey, if the client moved the goalpost and you. You say no, that's an entirely different situation.

[B]

But absolutely, there's always the. There's always the case where the client is the one who has jumped the GUN made an offer that we weren't ready yet. We weren't there yet. You know, those things happen as well. But we're talking primarily about mistakes that the CMO is.

[D]

But this, this mistake, Dave, that's six a year in 30 years. So one every two months. I'm just doing it in my head, but I think I'm. It's like more than one every two months.

[E]

Well. Well, I'm just saying you can get on the blacklist for other reasons than just turning on a written offer.

[D]

All right, so. So let's go to the last one. You're not the one. They turn you down, but you manage actually to increase the damage to you and everyone else involved. What is that mistake?

[B]

So this is the mistake. I'm sorry, which, which, which mistake are we on now?

[D]

You didn't get the job, and then you're going to handle. You're not the one. The first two are you're the one and you mess up the negotiations. The second one is you're the one, but you're going to turn it down. The third one is you're not the one.

[B]

Here's. Here's the. Here's the thing about this last one. You didn't get the offer, even though you might have wanted it. That doesn't mean the game is over. Play the long game. You have invested a lot of time and so has this company in getting to know each other. You were almost the one. You were a finalist. And how you leave the situation gracefully is. Is everything. So many things can happen. We have so many examples in our careers of executives that actually a month later did get the job because the one who actually got the original job offer didn't work out. If you leave the situation in. In a way that is it not just graceful, but in a way that leaves the door open saying, I've really enjoyed this process. Keep those relationships alive. Those bridges that you built, those are yours forever now if you do it well.

[D]

So this implies that there's a lot of people that do this very badly or you wouldn't have to bring this up like you want to give us an example of very badly.

[E]

Well, by the way, that that behavior could be just to Kate or I, or it could be with the client.

[D]

Yeah. And just very bad behavior somewhere in the. I didn't get the job, so I'm going to be not a very nice person.

[E]

It's just a classic case of being a sore loser.

[D]

And any good story you want to tell, you guys have great.

[E]

I was just going to just flipping it around for a second. Mike, Kate and I are talking to new potential clients every week. And we're up against all the big firms, right? And we're a big firm. We don't win every single pitch. But if we whine about it and complain and gosh, I spent all that time, they're never going to want to talk to us again. Instead, what we say is, I'm disappointed. We were excited about the role. We're excited about what you're trying to do as a company. You seem like you'd be good people to work with. Is there anything that we couldn't have done differently? And listen, keep us in mind for something else down the road. That's it.

[B]

And this is true, of course, for the CMO who doesn't get the job to follow up and say, this is what I really learned and loved about learning about this opportunity. Here's what I'm here for. Forever. If ever you need someone or insight on something, you just remembering the value that you can bring to that organization outside of just filling a role, reminding those executives that you got to know that in your mind this is now a relationship forever and you're here for it.

[D]

And do a lot of people make a difference and do a lot of people do this badly or just ghost you after they don't get the job?

[B]

It's, that is the, I would say the ghosting is the bad behavior, not the sore loser necessarily. So that is the sore loser. Be the executive that says, I didn't, I didn't lose here. I gained. Right. I gained relationships, I gained insight and knowledge. And that could lead to something down the road if I play it well.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Hey, Mike, there's a, there's also a, there's a stage right before here that's critical. Right. I call you and say, mike, listen, they're gonna, they're gonna make an offer to another candidate. Yeah, they really like you, but they're gonna make an offer to another candidate and your position is okay, I understand. I'm still interested. If things don't work out, call me, let me know.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

And there's other people who get sour about that and they basically shoot themselves in the foot or they're non responsive because they didn't win the prize right out of the gate. And they've just eliminated themselves from what could be a job offer two weeks from now when the one who was chosen turned it down.

[D]

Wow. And that kind of thinking follows you around once it's out of your mouth too. Forever with the search firm. Right. Which is. I have to. I'm going to. I have to not just win. I have to win on my terms for everything is what that says.

[E]

All right.

[D]

Well, this is always. I expected a great show. It's been a great show. And we are now at our traditional last question, funniest story and or piece of practical advice we haven't discussed yet. Last time we got the antler story from David. So you can take one or both of those, but you must take at least one. So funny story and a practical vice. Whoever wants to go first should jump on and then we'll go to the second.

[E]

Kate.

[B]

David's always the fun one, so I'll be the heavy. I will say that, you know, the practical. I'll go with practical advice. Something that we haven't talked about overtly throughout this conversation is the idea that any opportunity that a CMO is considering is first and foremost an opportunity to lead. Change it. It is always. Any opening in a company is by default and design a change management opportunity. Something's in the mix that requires change. And that's why there's a. The position is open. CMOs must think about every opportunity they consider through the frame of change. Leadership first, marketing second. And I would just make sure. I would just advise every CMO to think about the opportunities they consider through that lens. Is this the kind of change I want to lead? Is this company truly ready for this change? How can I be sure, or at least try to be as sure as possible that this change is possible, that I will be successful in leading through it? What are these people like? Are they aligned on the change? You know, all of those things are important to consider, as important, if not more important than the marketing work itself.

[D]

Excellent. All right, last. Last but not least, David, take us away.

[E]

I don't know if I can top antlers.

[D]

No, I. We can repost the antlers for. For those people that want to see it in comments, but okay, the practical.

[E]

Advice, which was a funny story. Make sure in a world of video calls that you have your handle around, you know, your technology. Make sure your studio is set up right. Make sure you know that you're transmitting and receiving properly. So a couple weeks ago, I was waiting for an interview to start. I see the candidate, I hear the candidate. He doesn't think that he can see me right, or hear me or I can see anyway. He stands up, he's got boxer shorts on, very nice collared shirt, but boxer shorts, leads his desk, comes back. Anyway, I didn't want to call him out, but I did call him on his mobile and and say hey, maybe we just do a phone call. So make sure you really understand what's happening with your, your Zoom or your teams.

[D]

So you are you, you are video exposed to so many things. David Weiser all right, well thank you Kate and David and thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. If you are enjoying the show, please like share and subscribe. Look for all of our shows on Spotify, Apple and YouTube which include you're brought in to fix the brand. Now what managing the gray area, the fine line between puffery and lying, what HR really thinks about marketing and of course Dave and Kate's earlier show the top five mistakes boards and CEOs make when hiring a CMO. Hey all you marketers stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential. Legacy marketing tools weren't built for AI Typeface is the first multimodal platform where agentic workflows handle everything from brainstorming to launch across every channel and customer touchpoint. Their AI native design transforms manual marketing tasks into automated workflows that create personalized text, imagery and video at enterprise scale. Typefaces AI integrates with existing martech stacks through APIs and native connections so you keep your processes while gaining AI superpowers and enterprise grade security. See how brands like Asics and Microsoft accelerate innovation and transform a single idea into thousands of personalized on brand experiences. Instantly ready to see what marketing looks like when AI handles the heavy lifting? Learn more at Typeface AICMO.