CMO Confidential

Episode: Tom Stein and Jann Schwarz | The Truth Behind the Curtain in B2B Marketing
Host: Mike Linton
Guests: Tom Stein (Chairman, Stein Agency) and Jann Schwarz (Senior Director, Marketplace Innovation at LinkedIn; Founder, B2B Institute)
Date: December 16, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode brings together industry veterans Tom Stein and Jann Schwarz to expose the “truth behind the curtain” in B2B marketing. Host Mike Linton leads a candid discussion on the persistent challenges of integrating brand and demand, organizational silos, metric misalignment, and what it really takes for B2B marketers to win. Insights from joint research projects, including the 2025 ANA B2B Brand to Demand Maturity Study and their “Buyability” model, inform a conversation focused on the urgent need for B2B evolution—and the pitfalls awaiting organizations that lag behind.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of Brand and Demand Integration

• Key Finding: 80% of marketers believe integrating brand and demand is “very important” but aren’t actually doing it.

  “80% of the marketers that we surveyed, 100% integrating branded demand is very important. 80% aren't doing it at all.”
  — Tom Stein [05:39]

• The historic division between brand (awareness, reputation) and demand (lead gen, sales enablement) persists in most B2B organizations, despite near-universal belief that unification drives growth.
• Integration requires holistic strategy, creative, and content aligned with the buyer journey.

2. Why are Companies So Slow to Change?

• Structural Barriers:

  “You ship your org chart, so however you organized is what you end up producing as a business.”
  — Jann Schwarz [07:40]

• Siloed marketing and sales teams lead to fragmented effort, despite the reality that B2B buying decisions are group and journey-based.
• Emotional and social dimensions of buying are often overlooked in B2B.

3. The MQL Dilemma: Time to Move On

• Outdated Metrics:

  “My good friend John Miller…who pretty much invented the MQL, is now saying…that MQLs are pretty much BS.”
  — Jann Schwarz [10:00]

• The Marketing Qualified Lead (MQL) as a metric is increasingly obsolete; even its originators argue it misses the mark in today’s complex buying environments.

4. The Creative Gap in B2B

• There’s consensus that B2B creative quality lags far behind B2C:

  “On average, B2B creative is five times worse than B2C creative.”
  — Jann Schwarz [12:41]

• The risk lies not in bold creativity, but in failing to invest or differentiate:

  “…the risk is not doing it. The risk isn’t doing it.”
  — Tom Stein [14:16]

• ServiceNow was called out as a rare exemplar, with bold, consistent creative tied to real business performance.

5. Leadership Disconnect: CEOs, CFOs, and Boards

• Founders who “get” marketing (e.g., Salesforce’s Marc Benioff) build category-defining brands; most B2B leaders are product/engineering backgrounds and may lack this vision.

  “Most B2B CEOs…are much more technical. They believe in the superiority of their product, but they don’t necessarily understand why people buy things and how you have to use marketing and a strong brand to get people…to actually buy stuff.”
  — Jann Schwarz [15:46]

• Boards and investors often undervalue creative and brand until evidence is irrefutable.
• Marketers must take responsibility for translating impact into financial terms.

6. The “Buyability” Model: Shifting from Brand vs. Demand to Buyer-Centricity

• Buyability = making your product/service “easy to buy” for complex groups of corporate decision-makers.
• Focus should shift from brand marketing “costs” vs. demand/sales “returns” to what measurably increases buyer confidence and willingness.

  “Once you’re on the shortlist, what actually gets you bought is whether or not people have heard of you… before the official process even starts.”
  — Jann Schwarz [19:56]

• Key hidden influencers (CFO, procurement, security) must be considered in brand-building from day one.

7. Financialization and Metrics That Matter

• Marketers need to “financialize” their plans and arguments for internal buy-in:

  “We need to financialize how we think about it, and we need to financialize the conversations… because that becomes a really interesting conversation.”
  — Tom Stein [28:42]

• Lead volume obsession is out; focus on metrics like pipeline velocity, deal size, and customer lifetime value.

8. The Call to Action: What B2B Organizations Should Start Doing

• Strategic Investments: Invest more in brand as a primary driver of growth.
• Category Fame: Work for recognition and trust among all buyer stakeholders.
• Metric Overhaul: Move from vanity metrics to true business outcomes.
• Organizational Confidence: Cultivate conviction to drive and defend a modernized approach at the board level.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You ship your org chart, so however you organized is what you end up producing as a business.”
  — Jann Schwarz [07:40]

• “My good friend John Miller…who pretty much invented the MQL, is now saying…that MQLs are pretty much BS.”
  — Jann Schwarz [10:00]

• “On average, B2B creative is five times worse than B2C creative.”
  — Jann Schwarz [12:41]

• “The risk is not doing it. The risk isn’t doing it.”
  — Tom Stein [14:16]

• “You have to financialize buyability.”
  — Mike Linton [29:29]

• “28% of the respondents said they didn’t know [what % of company revenue their marketing budget represented].”
  — Tom Stein [31:03]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction of Guests & Topic: 00:35–02:51
• State of B2B Brand-Demand Integration: 03:17–06:07
• Why So Slow to Change? 07:15–08:53
• MQL Critique & Stories: 09:51–10:47
• The Creative Quality Gap: 11:08–14:16
• Leadership Disconnect & Metrics: 15:12–18:22
• The “Buyability” Model: 19:39–23:18
• Re-Defining the Funnel & Who Drives Change: 24:18–27:02
• What Playing Offense Really Looks Like: 27:02–29:29
• Actions for B2B Leaders: 31:38–34:44
• Funny Stories & Practical Advice: 35:13–37:59

Practical Takeaways & Final Advice

1. Start measuring what matters — move to business-impact metrics, even if more difficult.
2. Invest in brand-building as a competitive growth driver, not overhead.
3. Be courageous and financially literate — marketers must “financialize” their arguments to leadership.
4. Push for category fame to get on that all-important initial short list.
5. Have conviction and bring belief to your organization’s leadership and board.

Funniest Story

“I was…given the responsibility at midnight mass of carrying, cradling and carrying the baby Jesus onto the altar to lay the baby Jesus in the manger. My foot caught…and I threw the baby Jesus, who went clattering across the altar in front of, like hundreds of people, including my parents and their friends…”
— Tom Stein [36:22]

Episode Tone

Conversational, candid, and deeply knowledgeable. The guests balance hard truths (“five times worse”) with humor and practical optimism, making a potentially dry B2B topic both energizing and actionable for marketers and business leaders alike.