Tom Stein | Chairman, Stein IAS | The Inherent B2B Marketing Problem & What to Do About It

Summary

CMO Confidential: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Tom Stein | Chairman, Stein IAS | The Inherent B2B Marketing Problem & What to Do About It
Release Date: November 12, 2024
Host: Mike Linton
Guest: Tom Stein, Chairman and Chief Brand Officer at Stein IAS

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of CMO Confidential, host Mike Linton welcomes Tom Stein, Chairman and Chief Brand Officer at Stein IAS, to discuss the inherent challenges within B2B marketing and potential solutions. Tom Stein brings nearly four decades of experience in B2B marketing, steering Stein IAS to win numerous awards, including the B2B Agency of the Year by the ANA in 2023.

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Understanding the B2B Landscape

Tom Stein opens the discussion by challenging the notion that B2B marketing is in a "trough" or recession. He emphasizes that B2B is experiencing "a sense of energy and momentum and opportunity" (02:32). Stein attributes this positive outlook to several factors, particularly the burgeoning impact of artificial intelligence (AI).

Notable Quote:
“I think that it's definitely glass half full, I would say, and much more so than glass half empty.” (02:32)

Driving Forces Behind the Momentum

AI as a Catalyst: Stein highlights AI as a significant driver, stating that companies leveraging AI are creating new business models and enhancing service lines, which injects substantial energy into the B2B sector.

Market Corrections: He acknowledges the recent market corrections but believes they are temporary setbacks. Stein predicts that “momentum starts to be in front of us” (03:26), signaling a promising future for B2B marketing.

Notable Quote:
“I think the propulsive power of AI is just beginning to be felt, and I think it will be felt more and more and more and more in different ways and across every meaningful subsector in B2B.” (03:52)

The Rise of B2B Brands

Tom Stein introduces the concept of brand valuation in B2B, revealing that B2B enterprises are leaving a trillion dollars of brand value unaccounted for in their overall enterprise value (11:19). He explains that this valuation has traditionally been confined to B2C sectors but is now being recognized in B2B thanks to firms like Brand Finance.

Notable Quote:
“In B2B enterprises, if you take the top 100 to top 150 and compare them to B2C counterparts, they're leaving a trillion dollars of brand value as a component of enterprise overall enterprise value on the table.” (13:09)

Challenges in B2B Marketing

Disconnect Between Brand and Demand Marketing: Stein identifies a critical issue in B2B marketing—the lack of alignment between brand (top-of-funnel) and demand (performance marketing) efforts. This disconnection often leads to ineffective marketing strategies and wasted resources.

Notable Quote:
“If you have two different organizations within an organization that are doing two different things that are not aligned and they're both marketing to the same customer... it all falls apart.” (17:52)

Creativity and Long-Term Ideas: He stresses the need for more creative and long-term strategic ideas in B2B marketing. Instead of focusing solely on easily measurable tactics like Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs), marketers should develop “big long ideas” that span the entire buyer journey (15:01).

Notable Quote:
“An idea needs to be the big long idea... It needs to span a buyer journey. It needs to span all the channels, it needs to span the buyer journey stages.” (15:34)

Best and Worst Practices with Clients

Identifying Dysfunctional Clients: Stein explains that many clients may already recognize dysfunction within their marketing structures but fail to communicate it effectively to agencies. Successful collaborations require shared responsibility and clear alignment between marketing and sales teams.

Notable Quote:
“If they don't have that remit and it's a problem, it can often devolve into decision-making that is dispersed consensus-oriented decision-making... and how they're doing.” (24:51)

Structure vs. Trust: He emphasizes that trust is paramount. When organizations trust their marketing teams, structural issues can be resolved more effectively. Conversely, lack of trust often leads to marketing being viewed merely as a sales support group, limiting its potential impact.

Notable Quote:
“If marketing is considered a growth driver... a significant minority, say 25%, are considered growth drivers.” (25:55)

Advice to B2B CMOs

Recognizing the Complexity: Stein advises B2B CMOs to understand and appreciate the complexity of their roles. Managing various skill sets, technologies, and creative effectiveness is no small feat, especially in the B2B context.

Building Belief in Marketing: He encourages CMOs to build belief in marketing within their organizations. This involves gaining support from CEOs and the C-suite to allow marketing teams the freedom and resources to execute impactful strategies.

Questions for Job Seekers: For those looking to join forward-thinking companies, Stein suggests asking stakeholders, especially the CEO and CRO, about the role and perception of marketing within the organization. This can reveal whether the company views marketing as a strategic growth driver or merely a tactical expense.

Notable Quote:
“If you can't build the belief in the organization in marketing, then you should try really hard to do it. But ultimately, if you can, you should go somewhere where you can apply the power of marketing effectively.” (29:11)

Final Insights and Practical Advice

Embracing Risk and Creativity: Stein draws an analogy to modern football, where teams adopt a more dynamic and risk-taking approach compared to traditional, cautious strategies. Similarly, B2B marketing should embrace creativity and calculated risks to achieve significant results.

Personal Anecdote: Tom shares a humorous yet humbling story about falling off a stage during his early years as a bassist in rock bands, highlighting the importance of avoiding pitfalls in both professional and personal endeavors.

Notable Quote:
“The advice that comes out of the other end of that is don't fall off the stage.” (33:24)

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Conclusion

In this episode of CMO Confidential, Tom Stein provides a comprehensive analysis of the current state of B2B marketing, highlighting both its challenges and opportunities. By emphasizing the importance of brand valuation, creative long-term strategies, and organizational alignment, Stein offers valuable insights for B2B CMOs aiming to elevate their marketing efforts and drive substantial growth.

Key Takeaways:

• B2B marketing is experiencing renewed energy and momentum, largely driven by AI.
• There is significant untapped brand value in B2B sectors.
• Aligning brand and demand marketing is crucial for effective B2B strategies.
• Trust and structural alignment within organizations are essential for marketing success.
• B2B CMOs should advocate for marketing as a strategic growth driver and seek supportive organizational structures.

Notable Resources Mentioned:

• Brand Finance B2B Brand Valuation Reports
• Previous CMO Confidential episodes on related topics.

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Listen to the full episode on your preferred platform: Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and the I Hear Everything network.

Transcript

[Mike Linton]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, IHeAreEverything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential.

[Tom Stein]

The podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the head of marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linfen.

[Mike Linton]

Welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company and what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy, ebay, Farmers Insurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guest Tom Stein. Today's topic, the inherent B2B marketing problem and what to do about it. Tom is the Chair and Chief Brand officer at Stein IAS, a firm he founded nearly 40 years ago. He is a true champion of B2B marketing and marketers in general and a member on a number of industry boards. Both he and his agency have won many awards, including the B2B Agency of the Year for or by the ANA in 2023, where for full disclosure, we met for the first time. I read the list of awards that Tom and his agency have gotten, but we run out of time for the whole show, so let's just say a whole bunch of awards. Welcome Tom. Thanks for joining us.

[Tom Stein]

Great to be here. I've been looking forward to this one, Mike. And you know, I'm, I'm. I'm very. I want to know. This whole Confidential thing is. It's, it's very mysterious and do I have to now share confidences or how does.

[Mike Linton]

I'd like to tell you about it, but I can't because it's confidential.

[Tom Stein]

So.

[Mike Linton]

So let's start. We'll jump right in. Now Tom, why don't you. Because you. You're in the cathart seat for the whole B2B business. Give us an overview of the B2B landscape as you see it. And we've had guests say that B2B is in a trough. If you're not in AI or cyber, it's in a recession. Tell us what do you see? What are you seeing in the industry right now?

[Tom Stein]

But I certainly don't see that. I don't see it as being in a trough. I Don't see it as being in a recession. And I think that like all sectors and B2B is a very broad sector, know there are more energetic pockets than others, but by and large, there's a sense of, I think, energy and momentum and opportunity in B2B. And that comes from a business standpoint and it also comes from a marketer standpoint. So I think that it's definitely glass half full, I would say, and much more so than glass half empty. So I, you know, I think the macro, the macroeconomics and all that will. It probably will hopefully improve a little bit more. But I think, I think that we're poised, we're in a good. We're in a decent light.

[Mike Linton]

But what's driving the business side of that is that because, like, the market is up and, you know, we've had a rate cut and then what's driving the marketing component of that? So, and you look at it and say the glasses have full and maybe moving fuller. What, what are the driving forces you see on the business and the marketing side?

[Tom Stein]

Because the marketing is so excellent that everything is just.

[Mike Linton]

There we go. We're going to talk about that. I know you're making that up. Not confidential.

[Tom Stein]

Yeah, no. So, you know, I think that, that the, you know, certainly the. All of the traction around AI and all of the money that's. That's there, you know, it not only kind of adds energy to the space, but if you think about the brandscape in B2B and you think about companies that, you know, they're not open AI, but they're companies that are leveraging AI to create new business models and create new businesses and create adjunct and enhanced service lines to their own businesses. So I think that the propulsive power of AI is just beginning to be felt, and I think it will be felt more and more and more and more in different ways and across every meaningful subsector in B2B. So I think that is, That's a good thing. I think demand generally in a lot of sectors is starting to pick up now. I think that we went through the period from pre Covid to just post Covid a little bit beyond that, where there was so much momentum in the space and pretty much every category was doing very, very well. Certainly tech was doing very well. And then it had its kind of correction, massive correction, but that begins to. That begins to write itself as well. So, you know, every correction gets corrected. So I. So I think that generally, you know, a lot of the, A lot of the sluggishness starts to be behind us, and I think momentum starts to be in front of us. So that's, you know, I'm not a macroeconomics expert and all of that. All I can share is what I hear, feel, see both from my clients as well as from other folks in the space. So I think that. Yeah, that's what I think.

[Mike Linton]

So a rising tide is lifting the marketing boats as well in this.

[Tom Stein]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

Market. There's a lot more to work with too.

[Tom Stein]

Let me just, let me just add something to that, Mike, because, you know, the whole rising tide. So the B2B's rising tide, this, it's been rising for a while now. You know, I'm entirely biased, I admit it. I'm entirely biased about this, but in many ways, B2B, the tide has been rising. And, you know, it may have not risen quite as much the last couple of years, but overall it is rising. And so think of it as a. You called it a correction, a little period of time. But I think B2B is, is. Is going to outperform the rest of the world for any. For. For any number of years. I call this the B2B decade. And I believe that we're in it now, and I think we're going to see just from end to end, a, a new place for B2B in the world.

[Mike Linton]

So the trend line is going up and to the right and you see nothing. And you, you see if I'm shorthanding what you said, a ton of accelerants beat this, not the least of which is AI, but there's more to it than that. But also, this stuff falls right into the B2B power zone. So. Good, good. Look forward at that. Hey, you know, when we were talking down at the AA event and in one of our early shows, one of the things one of our earlier guests was titled or early shows was titled why is B to mark B2B marketing so bad and what to do About It. And the theme of that show was really, gosh, the B2B folks are just doing the same thing over and over again, or they're just captured with the salespeople and they're not doing marketing marketing. Your reaction to that kind of show and that statement, what. What do you, what do you think?

[Tom Stein]

Well, the, the easy answer for me would be to say that that that is a. A blanket statement that is fairly ridiculous. And so, but there is a part. There is an aspect of. Of. Of. There is an aspect of truth to it. So, you know, why, why is B2B marketing so bad. A lot of B2B marketing is pretty good. A lot of it is, is in fact really good. There's a lot of B2C marketing that pretty much sucks. There's a lot of marketing in lots of sectors that, you know, the stuff that's really good is, is dwarfed by the stuff that's not so good. So, so, you know, I think that's a little bit of unfairness directed toward B2B. B2B has the opportunity to be a lot better. So B2B marketing has the opportunity to be a lot better. And that's the exciting part of this Mike, and is that it's come a ways. It's got a long ways to go and, but it's come a ways.

[Mike Linton]

Let's talk about where it is then. And if you look on it, on that, on the kind of graph moving up into the right, where is it coming from, where is it and where's it go, where is it going? And then we'll talk about the challenges of getting there. But I, I, I agree. And it's getting definitely better. And it's a lot of the personalization stuff made for going forward. What do you see? What do you, where do you see it in its little evolution now?

[Tom Stein]

So I see a few different vectors that, that, that will help elevate V2B marketing. And so one is there's definitely a movement, maybe a bit of an overstatement, but for now we'll call it a movement toward greater investment in brand. So in brand level marketing. So the notion that you need to communicate with, engage with buyers who are in market at a given point in time, as well as buyers who may not be in market but will be at another point in time. So this is the 95 rule that exists and so I think that is being more and more acknowledged. But also the dimensions of brand investment in terms of talent, in terms of employee engagement, in terms of actually the financial value and we with brand finance Did a global B2B most valuable brands index last year and this year. And what we see is that B2B enterprises, if you take the top 100 to top 150 and compare them to B2C counterparts, they're leaving a trillion dollars of brand value as a component of enterprise, overall enterprise value on the table. So this is getting folks attention, so it's getting the CMOs attention, but it's also getting the CFO's attention and it's getting the CEO and the board's attention. So if you can I go Back.

[Mike Linton]

On that, how did you calculate that number? I mean, that is such a big number. And when you say leaving it on the table, what does it mean? Because we actually did a show on, on this saying brands are not on the balance sheet but should be and Wall street people are in, are actually imputing them with the value. Tell us how you did this and how you got to that massive number you put out.

[Tom Stein]

Well, so brand finance is one of the original, if not the original brand valuation consultancies in the world. And they're accountants, they're not marketers. And they, along with others, perfected the protocols for measuring brand value, brand valuation and measuring it as a, as a component part of overall enterprise valuation. And this is certified by multiple bodies and so on. It's done by a combination of analyzing financial performance and by surveying that's done in market around people's perceptions of companies and brands and kind of integrating the data points. And I'm not an expert in the, in the, in the research underpinning for this, but you know, brand finance has done this in the consumer space, Mike. Or like 27 years or something like that. And together last year we did this for the first time in B2B ever. And this year we did it for the second time ever. So you know, just think about that, that this has been a mainstay of brand valuation, has been a mainstay in the consumer space and it's never existed in the B2B space.

[Mike Linton]

Oh, they're calculating it like, like, like Interbrand and everybody else in, in terms of stock price and, and the valuation of the brand. Is that right?

[Tom Stein]

Yeah, that's right. It's a, it's, it's a combination of stock price, other financial data and metrics and you know, and, and then some quantitative inputs into, and if that's right.

[Mike Linton]

If, if this is. And we ought to get these guys on our, or these people on our show as well.

[Tom Stein]

So I can, I can hook you up, man. We'd love to be hooked up. I can do that.

[Mike Linton]

Because what this would say is the brand valuation is. It's pretty big. It's not captured yet in the stock price, but it's there.

[Tom Stein]

It's not captured as an intangible asset yet. And in the cases where it is captured, the percentage of brand valuation component part of total enterprise valuation underperforms consumer by about 40%.

[Mike Linton]

Okay, that is super interesting. We will take you up on that after the show. I want to go to the. Okay, so brands are in the rise.

[Tom Stein]

In B2B brands are on the rise. Brands are on the rise. B is the momentum, is the momentum behind that is not going to receive. It's going to keep going.

[Mike Linton]

So, so Big Mo is on the B2B sideline on our side. Tell us. We talked earlier or we talked, you know, about the inherent challenges of B2B marketing and you know, just talk about some of the things in the way of capturing all this brand value and using marketing to drive sales while you're on this up into the right move. Yeah.

[Tom Stein]

So the, the, the overall level of creativity, creative effectiveness needs to be, needs to get better and it needs to be better understood in B2B. You know, I think that there's been lots of, of, there's lots of data, there's been lots of conversation whether it comes from IPA or whomever. It comes from around, around creative effectiveness and around marketing effectiveness. And it's mostly lived in a consumer context and it hasn't lived in the B2B context. That is starting to change.

[Mike Linton]

So it makes no sense that it doesn't live in B2B because the purchase is so long.

[Tom Stein]

It makes no sense. It makes zero sense. And so that's changing. So that put that in the Big Mo column over here. So there's a lot of people thinking about it, There are a lot of people working on it. And I think it's making a qualitative and quantitative difference now. And you just said something about the buying cycle in B2B and that is very different than consumer. And when people say that B2B and B2C are really the same thing, I disagree with that. They're not the same thing. There are things that are similar and are the same, but they're big aspects of B2B marketing that are very different than consumer marketing. So, and one of which is the length of a buying process and the length of decision making and so on. And there's an idea. So this is our idea. So take full credit for it. But the big long idea. So an idea needs to be big. So of course it's stock and trade. An idea needs to be. But an idea needs to be long. It needs to span a buyer journey. It needs to span all the channels, it needs to span the buyer journey stages. So the idea of that, an idea being a big long idea is key. And I think that's being increasingly adopted in the B2B space. And also brand to demand connectivity needs to be better understood and better realized in the market. So you talked about what's holding us back. Here's A huge thing that's holding us back. This could be the hugest thing, which is in a lot of B2B companies. And there are reasons why this exists. But the fact of the matter is that that brand lives here and it has its budget, it has its team, it has its supporters and detractors. And this is in many, many, if not most organizations, demand is over here and demand its own budget, its own KPIs, all of these things. And so if you have two different organizations within an organization that are doing two different things that are not aligned and they're both marketing to the same, the same customer.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Tom Stein]

You know, it all falls apart. It does not work optimally well. And we in B2B need to fix that. We really need to fix it. It's not easy, but we need to fix it.

[Mike Linton]

And when I want to talk about the brand to demand connectivity and also when, when you say demand, are you essentially saying the sales arm of the B2B side or are you saying something different?

[Tom Stein]

I'm saying performance marketing. Okay, so call it mid to bottom.

[Mike Linton]

Of funnel sales, performance marketing and brand in there. And then talk to me about the connectivity and, and talk to me how the marketer should be or the company should be thinking about it differently than they are today in your mind.

[Tom Stein]

So the, you know, this has been talked to death about. The, so a disconnection, lack of alignment, whatever between the brand apparatus and the demand apparatus and then the marketing apparatus and function and the sales function. And so, you know, it's, we kind of devolve quickly into the world of MQ Wells. And if, you know, MQL's, you know, they're, they're, they're the, they're kind of the. I think they're a symptom of things being wrong.

[Mike Linton]

Is that, is that qualified leads?

[Tom Stein]

Is that marketing? Qualified lead?

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Tom Stein]

And no, sales people don't like them, the marketing people. Sometimes it's the only thing that they can hold their, their hand up and say, we did that. And it, you know, and so I think the, the, the easiest thing to measure.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Tom Stein]

Is it. Yeah, it's. And because the structures of companies are such that they aren't designed for easy measurement or for effective measurement. So the brand to demand connection and how something that an opportunity flows from brand to demand to sales, they're often not measured and often not adequately measured. Put it that way.

[Mike Linton]

And so if I'm parsing all your words, what you're saying is the brand is undervalued and in many organizations it's in a place where it is stuffed away and it's hard to get its value. And then the structure is also possibly in the way of it ever getting out from under that because there's so much focus on the easily measurable parts. Is that a fair summary?

[Tom Stein]

Yeah, that's correct.

[Mike Linton]

That's a very summer doing my job here.

[Tom Stein]

You're doing an excellent, excellent job. All right. I should have you as my spokesperson all the time.

[Mike Linton]

There you go. I'm available. I'm available.

[Tom Stein]

You synthesize very well.

[Mike Linton]

There you go.

[Tom Stein]

So there's one other thing I want to add to this. So many things I want to add to this. You know, when you and I had a chat a couple weeks ago, we were laughing about something that this all brings to mind, which is that B2B marketing, where it can fall down, is the old football adage of three yards in a cloud, you know, three yards in a cloud of dust. And so, yeah, you know, and so it's the notion that when B2B marketing is done in the way that has long been done and you know, where it's very tactical in its orientation and there are no, there are no big bets place. There's no, no one's going downfield, no one's looking for a 70 yard.

[Mike Linton]

Everyone's just looking at MQL and they.

[Tom Stein]

Ways to get them three, three yards in a cloud of dust. It's like the, it's, you know, football circa 1960 and football today is like everybody passes 53 times a game. And so I think that the B2B needs to catch up to those kinds of, that kind of approach where, you know, there's a understanding risk reward in marketing and you know, doing it in a prudent way with, with, with all of the necessary validation and forethought. But I do think that that that's another, that's a barrier that we're all trying to push beyond. And again, I think we're making progress.

[Mike Linton]

So let's talk about clients and when you're working with. I want to talk about best and worst practices of clients. Because if I'm a client and all I want is 3 yards in a cloud of DOS and you want to give me the big long idea how do I interact with that and how do I know if I'm a bad client? Like I'm looking for best and worst practices for clients here, particularly in the B2B space, so they can write themselves into this story of I actually do see big long ideas or I'm running a 3 yards in a cloud of dust office.

[Tom Stein]

Well, I think that the, the, the, the clients probably know they're not good clients. They probably do. You know, they, they, they probably know that they have dysfunction in their organization or there's dysfunction in the, in their broader company. There's a lack of alignment and all of that and they won't tell the agency that until the agency gets to experience it firsthand. And so I think that I don't. First of all, nothing should ever be put on the marketer and not put on the agency. So this is, you know, this has to be done together if it's going to be done, done right and have their own stuff. But I think that the, you know, from the clarity, the clarity among the marketers, the clarity of what they need to do their own seat at the table so that they're doing that with confidence, that they know they have stakeholder support, they have the CEO support, they have the C suite support and they have the, they have not just the influence but they have the responsive, the decision making responsibility to market as they deem best for the company. You know, they need to have that remit. In a lot of cases they don't have that remit and it's a problem, you know, it's, it's a problem because then it can often devolve into decision making that is dispersed consensus oriented decision making, least common denominator decision making, those kinds of things. And I, and the best marketers in the, in the B2B space, I'm sure it's the same in the B2C space know they, they have the confidence that comes from trust. They're trusted by their organization to do the right things and they typically then do the right things. But that's not, that's not the rule.

[Mike Linton]

In addition to trust, how much of it is structure? Because a lot of times you see in B2B particularly the marketing department quasi as a sales support group sometimes. How much of it is structure and how much of his trust?

[Tom Stein]

I think that a lot of it is trust and if there's trust, people will sort out the structure. You know, I think that the, what you're really getting at is does a B2B organization believe in marketing?

[Mike Linton]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tom Stein]

And so you know, if they don't, then it's a problem for the CMO and for the marketing organization and it's, it's a work in progress. That's a work in progress for sure. We see it every day, we see it literally every day.

[Mike Linton]

So what percent of companies would you say in the B2B space that you see believe in marketing versus those that don't? No names, just percentages.

[Tom Stein]

You can be sure I will not give you names. There you go.

[Mike Linton]

The.

[Tom Stein]

So I think the difference here, the way I would describe it, is that if marketing is considered a growth driver.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Tom Stein]

Or if marketing is considered a sales.

[Mike Linton]

Enabler or a line item. Yeah.

[Tom Stein]

And I think that the, the majority. A minority, A significant minority, are considered growth drivers.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Tom Stein]

So, you know, I, I put a number to it, say 25%, and then the rest are in a band of evolution from, you know, really, we used to call it balloons and brochures. That was. And, and you make a lot of money from balloons and brochures, but, you know, and then spending it to more sophisticated capabilities and contribution to the business. But, you know, that's another thing that is three yards in a cloud of dust. Right. That's the sales enabler way over a year. And then, you know, someone who's playing a contemporary offense is, you know, with Patrick Mahomes is over here. You know, I would use a jot New York Giants analogy, but it's not a good time to do that.

[Mike Linton]

I totally understand. If you could. You're talking to all the B2B CMOs listening the show. If you could talk to all the B2B CMOs in the world, what would you tell them? Just give them advice.

[Tom Stein]

One thing I would tell them that I don't think they get told enough is, um, how. How freaking hard their jobs are. It's a really hard job and there's a. The complexity of it, the things that one has to master at least well enough to manage well enough, the skill sets that need to be developed, the level of talent that they need to bring into their organizations, the technology that needs to be understood and adopted. And that was even before AI became a thing. Understanding the sophisticated principles of creative effectiveness of media, effectiveness of brand to demand connectivity, data, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's a hard job. And it's particularly hard, I think, in B2B because just for all the reasons we've been talking about, the B2B marketers are not necessarily, as the right word for this. They have a little bit more of an uphill climb and they have a lot of internal stuff that they need to deal with and manage. And B2C does as well, of course. But so it's a hard job and I have real empathy.

[Mike Linton]

Or we did a whole show on this Called.

[Tom Stein]

Is.

[Mike Linton]

Is the CMO job the hardest job in business?

[Tom Stein]

Oh, that's. I haven't listened to that one yet, but it is.

[Mike Linton]

So he's going to like this show. Tell me about. You can talk to all the building agencies now. Oh, go ahead.

[Tom Stein]

I want to finish about the, this, the CMOs for a second because I didn't answer your question. I didn't address your question. And what, what I would tell them is that, that building, you know, so the ultimate. Easy for me to say, but if you can't build the belief in the organization in marketing, then, but you should try, you should try really hard to do it. But ultimately, if you can, you should go somewhere where you, where you can apply the power of marketing effectively, because otherwise it's just too hard and too frustrating. The other thing, then I would say, like, find the places to, to, to, to, to actually do things differently. And, and, you know, maybe 90% or 80% or 70%, you're doing three yards in a cloud of dust, but you find the 30% where you have an opportunity to, to prove some things out and then to scale them from there.

[Mike Linton]

If I'm interviewing for a job, and I'm one of our listeners, I'm interviewing for a job and I want to go to that place where I can experiment and do something new. What questions should I ask the company and, or the agency to see if they're serious about adding in, you know, a belief in marketing?

[Tom Stein]

You know, I would, I, I would talk, I would talk to a few different stakeholders in a company, you know, and I would like look the, look the CRO in the eye and talk to that individual about what role marketing currently plays and what role marketing should play in the organization. And you'll tell pretty quickly if there's a belief there or the beginnings of a belief there, the beginnings of a partnership there. I'd have the same conversation, it'll have different context with the cfo, but I think the biggest conversation is with the CEO. And you know, does the CEO want to do things the way things have always been done? Does the CEO want to create a greater trajectory for the business and potentially also a legacy for himself or herself? So I would, I would ask those kinds of questions and, and, and really press people on this and don't, don't let the easy answer sway you.

[Mike Linton]

Well, goes back to your. Do you see marketing as a growth driver or do you see it as something else? And what I heard you say is ask questions and see how they actually are using it. And then want to use it. And if growth isn't in here, if it's all about efficiency, ROI or other stuff, they're probably not going to let you do anything that interesting.

[Tom Stein]

Let me, let me tell you a 30 second story. A CMO went from one company where that individual a very big company and to a smaller company, considerable but smaller company because of the vision of the CEO and the vision of the CEO in terms of what he hoped that business would become within a very fixed period of time and his belief that without better marketing, brand to demand, without better marketing, more joined up marketing, more effective marketing, he would not be able to achieve his vision and scale the business to the extent that he needed to. That's the kind of conversation that you need to have.

[Mike Linton]

Right?

[Tom Stein]

And then you have to hope it comes true on the, on the other side. But, but I think that that's the opportunity that you want to be looking for and then make sure that the individual puts his money where his mouth is.

[Mike Linton]

Well, thank you for that. That's a great way to wrap the show. We are now at our traditional last question. It's a two parter, funniest story or piece of practical advice we haven't discussed yet. You can take one or both of these, but you have to take at least one.

[Tom Stein]

So is this funniest professional story or.

[Mike Linton]

You'Re open, it's confidential so you can talk about anything you want.

[Tom Stein]

Well, the, the, the, the. I don't know if there's a funniest story but it's certainly one of the more embarrassing stories so they tend to be funny. But in my, in my, in my earlier years I was a bass player. I'm still a bass player, but a bass player in, in, in bands, rock bands. Um, and the. I, I managed, we, we finally got the big gig, you know the sort of like the breakthrough gig and I, I managed to fall off the stage.

[Mike Linton]

Nice.

[Tom Stein]

And it, it, it was, it was a definitely a memorable moment in my life. And so the, the, the advice that comes out of the, the other end of that is don't fall off the stage.

[Mike Linton]

Well, think about all the beads be clients that have benefited from you not opening for the Rolling Stones or you.

[Tom Stein]

Know, you know, I could have been a contender Mike, but if you and.

[Mike Linton]

Michael Trev of Code Theory could form a band. So thank you. I think that's a great way to end the show. Thank you Tom for joining us and thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. If you're enjoying the show, please like share and subscribe look for all of our shows on CM, Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and the I'm Here Everything network, which include what your agency wants to tell you but won't. Parts 1, 2 and 3. The top five reasons B2B marketers get fired. Why B2B marketing so bad and what to do about it. And it's artificial intelligence. An extinction event for agencies. Hey, all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.