← Coach2Coach W/ Jason Garrett
Coach2Coach W/ Jason Garrett
Joe Girardi: Mastering Decision-Making in Sports | Leadership, Analytics & Family | EP 3
00:56:55
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Transcript154 lines
- [00:00]
A
I had to show Mike Messina that I believed in him. So we're playing in Boston. It's early in April. We're winning, like, 2 to 1 in the fifth inning, and Manny Ramirez is up, and there's a runner on second, and Kevin Uchoulis is on deck. And I know the numbers. Manny's hitting better than Kevin, but. And Manny's a better hitter at this time in his career than Kevin. And I know that I want to walk Manny because there's two routes and put him on first and let him go after UCLAs. So I walk out there and say to. To Mike Messina, I said, what do you want to do here? I. I know what I want to do, but I want to hear what you want to do. And he says, I want to go after Manny, and if I get behind him, we can walk him and then I'll go after Kevin.
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B
Uchas.
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A
I said, okay. I get back to the dugout, turn around, put my foot back up on the step, and bam, he hits a double on the gap, and now it's two to two, right? And I'm thinking, why didn't I go with my gut, right? Why didn't I go with what I thought was right? But this is the thing about managing people. Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the.
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B
Hey. With me today on Coach to Coach is one of my favorite people I've ever met in sports, former Yankee manager Joe Girardi. Joe, how are you, man?
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A
I'm great. Jason, how are you?
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B
I'm doing fantastic. I'm doing fantastic. We've had a lot of great times together. Some of my favorite memories are coming down when I was coaching the Cowboys, hanging out with you in spring training down there in Tampa. Always had great times hanging out with you. You're always so welcoming to me.
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A
Well, I truly appreciate you speaking to our teams. And I used to joke with you, the only thing you weren't allowed to do was to take Aaron Judge as a defensive end. That was the only thing. I think he would have fit that pretty well at 67280 and the way he moves.
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B
I'll never forget him coming around the corner in the clubhouse, and I'm like, who is this guy? You're like, that's Judge.
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A
Yeah.
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B
He looks exactly like an all pro tight end to me.
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A
Yeah. So he's. He's done pretty well in baseball, though.
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B
Yeah. I think he made the right decision. No doubt about that. Hey, I want to. Let's start with this. You and I probably have some things in common, having been the head coach of the Dallas Cowboys, the manager of the New York Yankees, two marquee franchises all over the world. There's a lot of scrutiny that goes with it and you have to be bold in making decisions. And one decision that I always admired that you made was the 2012 division series against Baltimore. I think the series was one one and a rod was struggling a little bit and you chose to pinch it A banez in the 9th and obviously a Rod's one of the best players that's ever walked. That's a hard decision to make anywhere, particularly in New York. What was the thought process?
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A
Well, it was the toughest decision I ever had to make in a game. And Alex had hurt his thumb in the month of September and had missed some time and was coming. At game one we faced Jim Johnson who we got to and scored some one runs and won that game late off of their closer. And Alex did not have a good at bat. And I looked at the numbers of Alex off of Jim Johnson in his career and it just wasn't a great matchup for Alex. But to me it had more to do with health for Alex. But yeah, I started thinking about it in the fifth inning because I was, you know, we played Baltimore 19 times. I was familiar with how Buck used his bullpen and what he would do. And I was looking at the score and seeing that it tied and if, and if they were, they were ahead as we went like into the fifth inning and I started thinking about, man, if this goes the way that Buck wants to, Jim Johnson's going to face Alex in the ninth. And I always thought ahead because that's what I did as a catcher. I always counted backwards and I, I knew Raul Banas was a good low ball hitter, but for whatever reason in bp, I was watching him hit balls like, like ankle high into the right field bleachers. And I'm thinking, God, is he a great low ball hitter. And at some point I might need to pinch hit him off of Jim Johnson because Jim Johnson had that hard sinker that went down and it's tough on right handed hitters. So in the fifth inning I kind of nudged my bench coach, Rob Thompson. Great baseball man. I said, you know, I think if Alex faces Jim Johnson in the 9th and 2 to 1, I'm going to hit Raul Banyas. And he kind of looked at me like, are you out of your mind? And I'm thinking, I said, no, I just think it's the right move with the struggles that Alex is having. The bad thumb. And I think it's difficult. And I'm thinking in my mind, you know, I'm going to pinch hit for the guy that might break the home run record. And if this doesn't work, you know, they're going to run you out of town.
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B
Sure.
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A
And as I kept going through it, the sixth inning, the seventh inning, and this point, I'm praying that we either take the lead before we get to this point or they get so far up it doesn't matter what I do, and it doesn't come to fruition. And I just kept thinking about it. It's the right move. It's the right move for the team, it's the right move for the organization. And as you know, you can make the right move. It doesn't always work out. The reason it doesn't always work out is two reasons. There's a human development, and the people on the other side are actually trying to win. They're not trying to put a ball on tee to let you hit it out of the ballpark. But as time went on, so the eighth inning comes in, and. And I'm watching, I'm watching. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm gonna have to do this. I'm gonna have to do this. And as. As Alex goes out to. To play defense in the top of the ninth, I call up to the press box and tell the PR guy said, look, I'm going to hit for Alex in the bottom of the ninth. I don't want you to announce who Raul Banyaz is hitting for. Just say, now batting, Raul Abanas. And they did that. And as Alex came off the field, if we got three outs in the top of the night, is he went downstairs like he always did in. Into the cage area to get his bat and his batting gloves. I told him, I'm going to pinch hit for you. And he was, like, shocked. But he was like, okay, and came right back out to the top of the dugout and cheered for Raul Abanis. And that told me a ton about Alex Rodriguez, that. That he was a team player. And if you look when Raul hits the home run, Alex is like the first guy out there to greet him. But it just worked out. I was fortunate, you know, that the player that I picked really came through, and he ended up hitting another one, I think, in the 12th inning, where we won 3 to 2. But it was the. It was the hardest decision I ever had to make on a baseball field because I hadn't forgotten what Alex did in 2009. He was a big reason we won the World Series and how great he was, but he just wasn't healthy. And I just felt it was best for the organization.
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B
Yeah. You know, there's so many levels to that story. The first thing that I'm just amazed at, listening to you tell the story is how you knew about it in the fifth inning. I mean, counting backwards, all that kind of stuff. But to think that this scenario is going to happen and I'm going to have to do this, and then it played out exactly as you thought. It's pretty amazing. But then the other parts, the preparation, talking to Rob, but then talking to the PR guy, I mean, that's really, it's really. There's a lot of layers to this thing and really well thought out.
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A
Well, the one thing that you realize about players is they have a ton of pride in what they do.
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B
Oh, my God.
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A
And they have egos. And one of the reasons they're successful is that they have egos and they truly believe in themselves and they can accomplish anything. So you have to kind of massage that and understand this is just one game. I don't want to crush him because he's playing the next day. Right. If we go up 2 to 1 or down 2 to 1, he's playing. And, and the, and one of the most important things, I think, for a player is that the man that they know that the coach or the manager believes in them. And I had a ton of belief in Alex, but I just thought it wasn't a great matchup. He had been dealing with the broken thumb, and I just thought I would do it. But there's so many things that come into play, and our game moves slower than your game. I mean, you can have two plays that go to the house and the score is completely different in 15 seconds. Right. I mean, that's what.
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B
Sure.
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A
Our games, our game's not like that. I mean, it. And at bat takes two minutes. So I just kept thinking and thinking and praying and praying. And I was really fortunate that it worked out. And Raul Banya's obviously had to perform. And I gotta tell you, Alex was great. And, you know, at the time, I thought, man, you're gonna get fired if this doesn't work. But in my heart, I believed it was the right decision. And I think you always have to do what you believe is right.
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B
Yeah, no doubt. You know, I, I. The first day of every season, we have an opening team meeting, and one of the first words out of my mouth is, everybody in the organization needs to know that every decision we make is going to be for the best interest of the Dallas Cowboys, the New York Yankees. It's not for any coach, any player, any staff member. You know, the decisions are made for, for what we think is going to be the best for the team. And the decisions aren't always going to be right, but they have to be steeped in that. And clearly that's a decision you made. And it takes a lot of courage. You know, Bill Raftery, who does the NCAA games, it takes a lot of onions, you know, and, you know, it takes big onions to, to make a decision like that, particularly there. And it's curious to me, the thought process, the thinking, the praying, all of that that led up to it, but then the courage enough to, to pull the trigger when the time came.
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A
Yeah. I think that when you're in a position of leadership, you have to have courage because there's a lot of lonely moments.
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B
Sure.
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A
Where you have to make decisions, tough decisions. I mean, you, you have to cut players. You know, you have to sit a guy for a while who's struggling, and they don't understand. And they don't understand that you're trying to do it in their best interest to try to get them going. There's a lot of things, there's a lot of people that believe, you know, that should be my role, and it's not, and I'm. And I'm not happy about it. And there's, There's a lot of egos that you have to massage and communicate and let players know that you love them and they, they can trust you and you're doing what's in their best interest. But they also have to know you're. What's, you're doing what's in the best interest of the team first, like you said. And our decisions are.
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B
Are.
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A
We put a lot of thought into them. And as you said, they're not always going to work out. It's just, it's just the way sports is. And that's why we love sports, because at times it's so unpredictable. But for me, you know, I put a lot of thought and everything, and, and I still do because one of my favorite things to do is to study the game and to study players and to steady hitters and pitchers. That's probably what I enjoy most more than even playing. And because I put a lot of thought into it, I made the decision.
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B
Yeah. You know, a lot of young coaches will ask me, you know, do you have any advice? And the advice that I Always come back to is trust your gut, trust your instinct. You know, you have to put preparation in, you have to think about things, but at the end of it, there's something inside of you that's telling you which direction to go. And you know, my regret sometimes when I look back on decisions, it's like, you know, I didn't really trust myself enough to pull the trigger on that. Whether it's a play call or some sort of a decision, the many decisions you make as a head coach or manager. So that's interesting that you were able. That you were able to do that. What's curious to me about baseball is analytics are so immersed in baseball these days, and really, for a number of years, and as a manager who's making all these decisions, how important was the analytics versus your instincts as a baseball player for 15 years of the major league level and as a manager for 13? I mean, how do you balance those two things?
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A
Yeah, analytics have. Have always been in our game.
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B
Sure.
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A
But there's just so many more now. There's so much more information to help you with matchups, to help pitchers, you know, develop new pitches. I mean, there's just so many different things we can do. But we've always used it.
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B
Yeah, we used to call them tendencies in football, you know.
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A
Right. Probability of something happening.
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B
Yeah, these are the tenants.
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A
I mean, when we flip a coin, there's an analytic for flipping a coin, and it's the probability that it's going to be heads. Right, right, sure, sure. So we've always used it, but there's just more. And I've always loved information. When I. When I first came to New York, they used to make fun of me. They used to call me Binder Joe because I had so many numbers. Because I'm a math guy and I believe numbers tell a story over time. But the one thing that you realize is they don't always tell the story that day. And there's a lot of emotions that go into it. There's a lot of emotions in players. And the thing about analytics is they're designed to take the. The emotion out of the decision, but you can't take the emotion out of the player. And that's what you have to really put together and make your decision. That's why I didn't always go with what the numbers told me, because my gut would tell me something different. Sometimes I was making a decision to show a player that I believe in him and that you could trust me and that you were really good. And so I. I I think it's just another tool in your golf bag. It's another club. That's all it is. And it's an important one because there's a lot of tendencies that you can get from it. And the analytics will tell a story and you can, you can design what you want to do around that story. But there's also something about the heart of the player, the mind of the player, where his mindset is that day, you know, And I think about like some of the decisions that the going forward, fourth and one, right, in football. This is what I think about. Well, you know, the analytics doesn't tell you that your two left guards are heard and the backup guys are in there.
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B
No doubt.
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A
If you just follow the end. So there's, there's things that you have to decide like, okay, this is, this is a different scenario because of my personnel, no doubt. So for me it's just another club in your bag. And I'm not a very good golfer, so I don't really know how to use many of them, but I always love numbers because I thought it told a story.
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B
Yeah. You know, speaking of going forward on 4th and 1, we had a situation a number of years ago and we were playing Philadelphia and it was, we were in overtime and we had a great, it was a great game for us offensively. We're playing down in Dallas and we literally ran 100 plays. And 100 plays in an NFL game is a lot of plays, ton, you know, 65, 70, those are good, those are good games. And, and so it was just one of those days. We ran the ball well, we threw it well. It was kind of a high scoring back and forth game and you know, we're in overtime. And it was when the rules were such that if you score a touchdown in overtime, the game's over. And if you kick a field goal, they get a chance to come back and we're down to like the 10 yard line going in. It's a fourth and one and it literally was our hundredth play of the game. And you know, I'm standing on the sidelines and our guys, you know, our offensive lineman, shoulders are back, hands on hips, they're ready to go. And I'm looking at their defensive linemen and they're doubled over. I mean, great players. Fletcher Cox, these guys are just big time players and have been for a long time, but we were wearing them out. And so to me, the decision was easy. Of course we're going forward here. Right. Because we're dominating these guys. Fourth and one, we're going to go for it. We're going to go score the touchdown and then the game right here. And it worked out for us. And they ask you about it afterwards. And to me, it was like, okay, I get the idea that analytics wants us to go for more on 4th and 1. I get that. But the bigger factor for me was watching the game and feeling the game for three and a half hours. That's what led to that decision. And I'm sure you had a lot of those yourself.
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A
Well, having a feel for the game is really important. And I know there's just certain things that you do that you wouldn't always do, but the game dictates it. You know, in our game, it may be you don't have two bullpen pieces that you would normally have that you would go to the back end, so you're going to play for bigger innings, opposed to paying, just playing for one run. Because I don't. I don't have my big guns. So you have to have that feel of the game and how it's being played out. Is the ball flying that day? The wind is blowing out or the wind is blowing in and it's going to be really hard to score run. So I'm going to play my infield in with nobody out and runner on third in the first thing, which you, you know, you wouldn't always do. I mean, they're just. You have to have a feel for the conditions of the game, your players, who you have, who you don't have. And to me, that's what managing and coaching is all about, understanding who you have and putting them in the best position to be successful.
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B
Yeah. You know, talking about going down and visiting at spring training. I can remember sitting outside the dugout on a bench with you and our special teams coach at the time, Rich Basachi. I think Rob was there and Reggie Jackson. We're sitting there watching the game was one of my favorite sports experiences. And you were taking me through, you know, the different guys that you had on the team and the decisions you were making. And there was one guy playing third base, and you said he was a young guy, had a lot of potential. And you said something to me that really resonated. You said, the game's a little fast for him right now. And I thought to myself, I never viewed that in baseball. In football, that's. That's something. The game's fast for the quarterback, a young quarterback. It's like it's, you know, Times Square on New Year's Eve, I mean, he doesn't know what he's looking at, but I never really related that to baseball. And you said to me, both as a hitter and as a fielder, sometimes the game's fast for the young guys. Can you explain that?
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A
Yeah, the, our game is slow in a sense, but when there's action, it's really fast.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Balls are hit really hard and you got to make a decision of what base to go to. You know, the infield is in and there's. And it's a fast runner at first. There's runners on first and third, and that's the winning run. You know, do, do, do I try to turn the, the double play? Is it hit hard enough where I can? That's a split second decision that you have to make in real time. And that's our game moves really, really fast when it's being played. Balls in the gap, making a decision, do I take the extra base? And sometimes you slow it down by experience. That's usually how you slow it down. Most players are allowed to slow it down. And also when you're first called up, there's a lot more pressure on your shoulders because you want to prove that you belong and that you can stay in the big leagues for a long, long time. So sometimes your thought process is thinking about other things that shouldn't be. And players have to learn to slow the game down.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And when they do, they, you know, some of them become incredible. And then you have those players that have a slow heartbeat from day one and you're like, oh, my goodness, this kid's going to be special because nothing speeds up for him. And those are the players you love to have.
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B
Yeah, no doubt. They're naturals. You know, one of my other spring training experiences down there is we finished watching the game that you guys had and we're walking out, we're heading back to the hotel and you comes coming by in a golf cart and you got your wife and you got Dante and your kids there, and I think you were going to play.500 out in the outfield.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And it struck me that, wow, that's the manager of the New York Baseball Yankees right there. And how important your family is to you, how you included them in everything you were doing.
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A
Well, balance is the most important thing when you're in a job of leadership, because there's a lot of demands on your time, and it's just not necessarily demands of the coaching. You know, you have to deal with the front office, you have to deal with the owner, you have to deal with the fans, you know, you have to mingle, you have to sell your product all the time. But I always made time for my family, so that's why I'm not a golfer. I'm not a fisherman. I'm not. I don't really have any hobbies because my hobbies was my family. When I wasn't at the. At the field, everything was focused around doing things with things with my wife and kids. And I've always said, if you want to be great at something, you have to give something up. And what I gave up was doing some of those other things so I could have a wonderful marriage. You know, my wife and I have almost been married 37 years. We have three have wonderful kids. Proud of all of them. And that was the most important thing to me. You know, I laugh because our kids are still on. You know, I have a daughter, 26, a son, 24, a daughter, 19. They're still on Find My friends. We know where they are all the time, and they know where we all the time. And. And that makes me feel good because my wife put a ton of effort into keeping our family together and making sure that we were always doing things. My wife, Kim, and. And to me, the balance is so important because without your family, you have nothing.
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B
Yeah, that's great. I can remember in 2017, we were playing in the hall of Fame game in Canton and you guys were in Cleveland playing the Indian Slash Guardians at the time. And. And you came by, I think we did a walk through at the Cleveland Playhouse. The old theater.
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A
Yes.
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B
And you were kind enough to come by with Dante and talk to the team. Was a great memory for me.
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A
Yeah, I mean, football is my first love. I mean, baseball is what I did for a living, but I. To me, there's nothing better than football. And I. And I got to play through high school and just the excitement that builds up, you know, as you go from Monday to Tuesday to Wednesday. We used to play Friday nights. It was. It was just so emotional and so spectacular that I've always loved it. And I'm a huge college football fan. I follow a ton of that. I'm grew up a Bears fan, you know, was. Got to watch the 85 Bears, obviously, and go see the playoff game against the Rams with one of my teammates from Northwestern. But just. Just to let my son experience that and be around so many great professional athletes and you see the size and the speed and the athleticism, it was always great for him to see, and he loved every minute of it. And those are some of my fondest memories doing things with my kids like that.
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B
Yeah, it was great for me to, you know, I was so proud to have you, to kind of introduce you to our guys. And I can remember Jason Whitten and Prescott and Des Bryant all fired up to talk to you. So it was a great day. I love that.
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A
A lot of fun. I would have thought that your walkthrough would have been on grass or turf. I didn't expect it to be on a wood floor.
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B
It was an old theater. It was a crazy deal. Hey, let's go back. You mentioned growing up Peoria, Illinois. Your dad's an Air Force guy. Clearly, you're a guy of great moral leadership. Just the way you go about living your life is just always so impressive and inspirational to me. Talk about your influence of your parents and growing up in middle America.
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A
Well, I followed my father wherever he went. That was Joe Girardi. They used to give me a hard time and said that I was dad's pet. I was the fourth of five children. Two older brothers, an older sister, a younger brother. We grew up in a great town. Both my parents worked very hard. They were involved in everything that we did, whether it was little League or my dad, you know, cooking for the training table as we played on Friday nights. High school football. My mom and dad really believed in education. My mom was a child psychologist. Unfortunately, we lost her way too young as she died from cancer. But my father taught me so many things. My father taught me the value of hard work. As he worked three jobs so we could go to private schools, he took me to work with him. I'd lay bricks with him on the weekends. He would pay me as his laborer. He gave me my first hundred dollar bill when I was like 7 years old because I helped him for two weekends putting up a fireplace. And he taught me always to finish the job. And that was really important to me that you got to finish what you start, because my father always did that and did it.
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B
He.
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A
He didn't necessarily try to teach me that, but it was the lessons that I learned from watching him that. That taught me finish the job and then do whatever you have to after that. And I just had loving parents that allowed us to have a ton of success. They wanted us to go to the best schools. They allowed us to play sports and, and allowed us to play all sports. And they worked really, really hard. And we were fortunate. And we grew up in a great place in Peoria, Illinois, where families were really important. And we Grew up at a really good time there and I loved my childhood.
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B
Yeah, you know, my wife's from Chicago and she always talks about Midwestern values. Yeah, there's something, there's something about it. Hey, Northwestern, you know, obviously a great baseball career there. But what jumps out to me is all the other stuff. Industrial engineer, medal of honor winner, you're the president of your fraternity as a freshman. It sounds like a lot of great Joe Girardi stuff, legendary stuff. Talk about that experience.
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A
Well, it's really interesting how I got there. I was recruited by other schools. Northwestern came in very late and, and life was so much different back then. Northwestern head coach Ron Wellman, who was the longtime AD at Wake Forest, who retired about five years ago from there, came and saw me one, saw me play one game in the state tournament, which we lost 2 to 1. I think I had a couple hits, I threw a couple runners out and it was the end of May. And he said, whatever you do, don't commit until you come see Northwestern. So I was going to New Orleans. And here's the twist about this. Ron Maestry was the head coach at New Orleans. Ron Maistry's father and my wife's father were worked in a little town in Highwood, Illinois. My wife's grandfather was the postmaster and Ron Maestry's father worked as a postman. And Ron and my mother in law were friends. Now, had I went to New Orleans, I would have never met my wife because I met her at Northwestern. But it was such a small world. But when we went to visit Northwestern and Ron Wellman offered me a scholarship, my mom's eyes lit up. And at that time she had been sick for like four of the six years that she fought cancer.
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B
Wow.
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A
And I knew that that was the place for me because that's where my mom wanted me to go. And all the hard work they put in educating us. I chose Northwestern and it was a huge blessing for me. Just a wonderful university, wonderful experience and, and what I value so much is the friendships. In early May, we just had a reunion at Wake Forest because Ron was the AD there for a long time, still lives. We surprised him for his 78th birthday and 20 of us went, wow. And the connection that we have, and that's not to get off on a soapbox, but that's the one thing that I hate about this transfer portal is the kids will never have what we had. Where we still rely on each other to this day.
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B
Sure.
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A
And it's really important, but that's how I ended up in Northwestern, and I loved every minute of it. We had so much fun, and we had a pretty good team my sophomore year. We lost to Michigan in the Big Ten playoffs. They had Larkin and Sabo and Morris, but we had, like five or six guys from our team playing the big leagues. That's how talented we were. And we. We had a blast. And we got together, and it's 40 years since I graduated college, and it was like some of these guys never left. They talk like they never left. And it was. It was priceless.
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B
Isn't it amazing how the conversation just continues? I mean, you haven't seen them in forever, and it's like we're with each other yesterday. You're telling the same stories and great stuff.
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A
It is amazing. I did the St. John's baseball kickoff banquet this year, and they were celebrating the team that went to the World Series 50 years ago. And it was like these guys were never apart. And we couldn't get them to sit down to do the dinner. They kept talking and walking around, and I'm like, man, this is special. I mean, I told the kids at St. John's look at this, because this is what you want. Life. Because, you know, as we go through life, there are a lot of things that creep up that aren't easy to handle.
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B
Sure.
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A
And it's really good when you have a support group like that.
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B
Yeah, no doubt. You end up playing 15 years of major League Baseball. When you're a little kid growing up in Peoria, and even when you're at Northwestern, did you see yourself being a major league player? Was that always your goal and aspiration?
- [28:54]
A
Well, I think every kid did. Right? Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. But in third grade, I wrote an essay that I was going to play for the Chicago Cubs, and that's who I got drafted by. And I actually made it to the big leagues with. Which was a huge thrill for me. And growing up, my father used to take us to like, four or five games a year. And my favorite two players were Ron Santo and Jose Cardel. Now, for different reasons, Ron Sano, because he had Ron Sandel pizza in the stands. And it. At that age, I thought it was great. And Jose Carnell, you know, was dark, complected, had an afro, played center field. My Aunt Connie, we used to think, and I was only five years old when I came up with this theory that Aunt Connie looked like Jose Cardinal. My aunt was always in the sun, dark, complected, big hair. Right.
- [29:39]
B
That's so good.
- [29:40]
A
And I Always knew that I wanted to play baseball. I loved it. But. And as I said, football was my first love. But I knew I really didn't have a chance because I wasn't big enough. I was a quarterback that really couldn't throw, so I really wasn't going to do much in football. And I always practiced and practiced. I played 100 games a summer since the time I was like a sophomore in high school. I would play as much as I could and then I would go to football practice after I played because I wanted to make it.
- [30:11]
B
Yeah. How big of the jump was it from, from playing in college baseball in the Big ten to first of all minor league system and then the majors?
- [30:20]
A
Oh, it's a big jump. Each step is a big jump, you know, and I think as they, they reduce the number of teams, the jump isn't quite as big as it was because guys used to stay in the minors longer.
- [30:33]
B
Yeah.
- [30:33]
A
But it was big. And you know, you get, you get humbled. I remember my first or second game. Pete McCanna was my manager. He ended up managing in the big leagues. Loved Pete. But he tore me up and down because I dropped a collision play at home plate. And he was telling me, this isn't no college ball. You got to hold on to that ball. And Pete McCannon, I love him to this day. He was one of the funniest people I ever played for. I played for him in winter ball. I, I played. He was the guy that called me when I got called up the, the second time. But, but it was a big jump. And it, it's, it's not so much that you don't see the talent in college, but you don't see it every day. You don't see a starting pitcher like that every day. You don't see.
- [31:23]
B
Right.
- [31:24]
A
Five or six relievers like that opposed to one.
- [31:26]
B
Yeah.
- [31:27]
A
And, and that's the biggest difference.
- [31:29]
B
Yeah. What made those Yankee teams won three World Series with the Yankees in the 90s. What made them special?
- [31:38]
A
We were talented, number one and number two. I think there was just a burning desire for so many of the players to be great. A lot of players want to be great, but they aren't willing to do what it takes to be great. And they don't necessarily want to handle the pressure that it takes to be great. But those guys did and they fed off of each other extremely well. They were non selfish. But I think the, probably the most important thing is we were accountable to each other. We held each other accountable. We didn't expect the Manager to do it, we did it. And if a guy wasn't doing his job, we weren't afraid to tell him. And if I wasn't doing my job, I wanted someone to tell me. And I think that's what made those teams so great.
- [32:22]
B
Yeah, no doubt. Why was Joe Torre a great manager?
- [32:27]
A
I think Joe Torrey had the ability to make you feel like everything was going to be all right if you worked hard, stuck together, and were prepared. Like, don't worry about the outside noise. I will handle it. You know, you have an owner that's very demanding, but Joe just had a calmness to him in a place that wasn't calm. And I think you can understand that in coaching. In Dallas, sure, the expectations are huge, but. And Joe and David Cohn took all the pressure off of everybody else because they were the sounding boards when they needed a sound bite. And Joe just let us relax and do our thing.
- [33:04]
B
Yeah, it's not easy to do. Right. Because there's obviously pressure on him to win. I mean, you go to the Divisional Championship Series with the Yankees, I mean, that's not a successful season, you know. No, you got to win the World Series or people aren't happy. And for a guy to be able to handle all that as well as he did, pretty amazing.
- [33:26]
A
It. It was. And even after we lost the first two games in 96 to. To the Atlanta Braves, we got pummeled the first game, like, 14 to 1. Andrew Jones was like 12 years old and hit two home runs, and then we lost 4 to 1 to Greg Maddox. And these. Both these games were at home, and George came in and he was quite upset and was in Joe's office, and he said, george, don't worry, boss. Don't worry. He said, atlanta's my town. We're going to go win three there, and we're going to come home and win game six, and we'll be World Series champion. And I'm sure Mr. Steinbrenner was probably saying, are you crazy? Right? Are you crazy? But that's exactly what happened. And Andy Pettit, who started game one, who got pummeled, be John Smoltz one to nothing in game five. I mean, that's. That's our game. You can go from goat to hero in a short period of time. We didn't have to wait a week. We got to play the next day.
- [34:21]
B
Exactly right.
- [34:22]
A
And. And that was Joe. He was able. Like, we never knew that. George was so mad and upset about the first two games because he kept it in his office. And calmed him down.
- [34:33]
B
Yeah. You know, two of my all time favorite athletes are Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera. You know, as, as a player, I admired them. When I became a coach, we used them as examples all the time when talking to the team. You were teammates of theirs and then you coached them when you were the manager of the Yankees and you were so gracious to, you know, bring me down to spring training. And I had some special time with both those guys. They were amazing. Talk about that experience of being teammates and then being their manager and their influence on the Yankees.
- [35:06]
A
You know, people thought that that might be difficult on me, but I thought it was easier and here's why. The one thing that we want to know is a position in leadership is we want to know somebody's heart and we want to know what makes them tick. Well, I got to play alongside him for four years and I knew exactly what they were all about and who they were. So that was really made my job easier. Now, sometimes I would have to make a tough decision that wasn't necessarily easy because like, as G got older, I would have to have him tell him he was going to have a day off. And he never liked days off. And he would get mad at me, but I would just say, hey, G, you know, I'm going to give you a day off. And he'd say, well, sleep on it. Call me in the morning. And I said, okay, I'll sleep on it. But that made it easy. And what I appreciated about those two, right, is you never had to worry about them. Yeah, I could pencil Derek in every day and knew exactly what I was going to get. Now, I didn't mean he was going to go three for four every day, but you knew he was prepared. He was going to make the right decision, he was going to be in the right spot and he was going to play the game the right way. And the same about Mariano Rivera. I mean, he was always prepared. And I loved it about both of them because there wasn't that pendulum that you swing, like, how's he going to do today? I didn't worry about it. And it was a guy. Pencil him, put him in there and don't worry about him. Let me worry about somebody else.
- [36:24]
B
Yeah. You know, my dad was a, was a coach and a scout for years, and I can remember one of his favorite compliments to give was he said, you know that Girardi, we could write out his game report his grade before the game. Right. We knew exactly what we're getting. Such a dependable guy. And those guys, if you think about 162 games over the course of how many years they played, it's an amazing compliment.
- [36:49]
A
Yeah. I always said to people that the best compliment I could give about Derek Teeter and Mariano Beers, so I never worried about him. Yeah, I didn't. I just. There was no extra thought when they were in the game for me. That's not true for all players. I mean, there's players that you got a defense for, you don't know how they're going to do in a big moment. Are they going to over swing like that?
- [37:11]
B
Sure.
- [37:11]
A
Never had to worry about that with those two. They had incredibly slow heartbeats, which was great. There was no moment that was ever too big for them.
- [37:19]
B
Yeah.
- [37:20]
A
And those are the easiest players to manage.
- [37:22]
B
Yeah. Okay. So you have this long career, playing some great teams, championship teams, then you get a chance to go be a manager, your coach, and then you're a manager down there in Miami. When you're there your first year, do you go in with a mindset or a vision for how you want this team to be and where does that come from?
- [37:45]
A
Yeah, my mindset was we were there to win the World Series. That was my mindset. So how do you do that? You have to get better every day. You have to work your tail end off. You have to always be prepared, and you have to make good decisions. And it was our job to teach all these young kids. We had 23 rookies, I believe that year. We had four rookie pitchers that had won 10 games, which was absolutely amazing. And the kids grew up. We started off 11 and 31. And, you know, I called the owner, I said, can I make some changes in the rotation? I think we need to get some of these kids in there. And we ended up getting back to.500, which is a tremendous compliment to those young kids and what they did and what they were capable of doing. I think I had three guys in the top five. Rookie of the Year, Hanley Ramirez won rookie of the Year. And when I went to spring training, I knew, like, two people that were going to make the team. Miguel Cabrera at third base, I wasn't worried about him. And Dontrell Willis. And then everything else was up for grabs.
- [38:45]
B
Wow.
- [38:45]
A
And the kids just got better and better every day. You couldn't tire him out. That's the one thing about having youth, is those players never got tired. When you manage some older players, they get beat up. They're, you know, they need a day off. Was not the case with these kids. And I had so much fun managing them and watching them improve every day and so many of them going on to have great careers. I mean, All Stars and batting titles and things that we had a triple crown winner, it was, it was a lot of fun. And, and even though that year didn't end up the way that I wanted to, where I got let go, I probably learned more that year in managing than any year that I ever managed.
- [39:26]
B
Yeah. What going into it, did you, did you have a sense of what your style was going to be? Was it influenced by a guy like Tori or other guys you played for? Was it, hey, I'm just going to be Joe Girardi and kind of let it go? I mean, how did you, how did you navigate the first time around?
- [39:45]
A
I think I took bits and pieces from every coach I ever had.
- [39:48]
B
Yeah.
- [39:49]
A
Whether it was Coach Rogers, my little league coach who chose me for 11 and 12 year old all star team when I was only 10 and made a lot of parents upset in the town, taught me that you got to show players that you believe in them and what they can do. Whether it was Dave Lang, my high school coach, football, baseball, about the analytics. He was a math professor, so he was very analytical. So I really liked it. Don Zimmer about choosing from your gut. Joe Tory about how to run a clubhouse. Don Baylor about the toughness that it takes to be successful at this level. I learned so much, you know, Jim Essie and I learned so much from him about calling pitches and the importance of the pitching staff. And the game really revolves around pitching. I took bits and pieces from everybody and it was really important to me. And then what I tried to do is surround myself with great coaches.
- [40:41]
B
Yeah.
- [40:42]
A
So I didn't have to worry about the hitters, I didn't have to worry about the pitchers. I had to worry about the feel of the clubhouse, what I had that day, and just trying to put the guys in the right position because I trusted all my coaches.
- [40:55]
B
Yeah. Well, you do an amazing job there. And then like you said, they let you go. You're the manager of the year in the national, in the National League. I mean, it's, it's hard to imagine what was that like? What was that conversation like? And what was your mindset after that?
- [41:11]
A
Well, I called Don Zimmer, who I had Don Zimmer Nine of my first 10 years in the big leagues. Whether he was the manager with the Cubs, the, the, he ended up being the, the bench coach with the Rockies, the bench coach with the Yankees. I truly Adored Don Zimmer and who he was. And he was like my grandfather. He was built like my grandfather. And I. I just loved him. And I always look for my sin. I called him on. On a Monday, and I said the season was over Sunday. I said, don, I think I'm gonna get fired tomorrow. And I thought I'd get some great words of wisdom. And he said, welcome to the club, pal. And he explained to me that as a coach, you're hired to be fired. That's what happens. And you. You will be fine. And it will be difficult. And it was really difficult for me. And it's one of the things that I've always thought that I've wanted to start, but I've never. I've never taken the initiative. I don't think people realize how difficult it is when you're let go, how it affects so many people. Yeah, it affects your coaches, it affects their families, their kids, your wife, your kids, what it does to you. Because for a team, if you're truly doing what you're supposed to as a manager, you're giving your heart and your soul, no doubt. And it's like somebody just rips it out, throws it on the ground and stomps on it, and it takes you, you know. It took time for me to heal. I got some calls the next year to manage, and fortunately, I have a wife that's just full of wisdom. She didn't let me, like, take the first thing that popped up. She said, look, you got to do what's right, but you're going to manage again. Don't worry about it.
- [42:51]
B
Yeah.
- [42:51]
A
And she was right. And the Yankees popped up in 2008. I did not manage in 2007. I broadcast, which was enjoyable, but it wasn't what I really wanted to do. And then I got the Yankees job in 2008, and it was truly a blessing. I got to do that for 10 years, and it was great.
- [43:08]
B
Yeah, Amazing experience. You did an incredible job there. So. So now you go to the Yankees. In 08, you had been the manager. In 06, you have a year under your belt. How are you different a couple years later when you take over in New York?
- [43:23]
A
Well, it's just completely different because it's not as much teaching. It's more about managing the players and who they are and the demands on their time and just the like. I never really felt the pressure to win because who wanted to win more than us?
- [43:45]
B
Yeah.
- [43:45]
A
You know, when you were coaching, was there anyone who wanted to win more than you? No.
- [43:49]
B
So.
- [43:50]
A
So, like, if things weren't going right, I was mad at myself. So I didn't really worry about that. But understanding that these guys had a lot of demands on their times and they were older and they had families and like most of my players in Florida didn't have kids and wives, that I had to worry about how things were going, Were they doing the right things at home, were they spending time and all? And then all of a sudden you have to start worrying about those things.
- [44:13]
B
Sure.
- [44:13]
A
And just the demands from the organization, people wanting to talk to you. Didn't have to deal with that in Miami. Had to deal with it with the Yankees and understanding how many different hats I had to wear. And I figured it out. It took time, but I figured it out.
- [44:29]
B
Yeah.
- [44:29]
A
And I loved it.
- [44:31]
B
Yeah. Well, you did a great job. You know, we talked about the Ibanez decision earlier. Are there other decisions that either went your way or didn't go your way that you reflect back on and say, ah, I wish I had done something different there. I know I got a few of those.
- [44:47]
A
Well, there's a decision that happened with Mike Messina, and I'm trying to think. It was 2008, 2007. He kind of had an up and down year and he was in and out of the rotation, and I knew that he would be really important to us if we were going to make any noise in 2008. So I had to show Mike Messina that I believed in him. So we're playing in Boston, it's early in April, and, you know, there's a situation coming up. It's. We're winning like 2 to 1 in the fifth inning, and Manny Ramirez is up and there's a runner on second and Kevin Uchoulis is on deck. And I know the numbers. Manning's hitting better than Kevin, but. And Manny's a better hitter at this time in his career than Kevin. And UK has had some success, but has not seen him nearly as much as Manny Ramirez because he's a younger player. And I know that I want to walk Manny because there's two routes and put him on first and let him go after Euclis. So I walk out there and say to. To Mike Messina, I said, what do you want to do here? I. I know what I want to do, but I want to hear what you want to do. And he says, I want to go after Manny and if I get behind him, we can walk him and then I'll go after Kevin Euclid. I said, okay, do you know what you want to do. And he told catcher what he wanted to do. I get back to the dugout, turn around, put my foot back up on the step, and bam, he hits a double on the gap, and now it's two to two, right? And I'm thinking, why didn't I go with my gut, right? Why didn't I go with what I thought was right? But this is the thing about managing people. Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war.
- [46:26]
B
No doubt.
- [46:27]
A
And I just said, you know, it's. I gotta get Mike Messina, that he knows that I believe in him and trust in him. So after the game, I'm asked, you know, the media, like, what happened out there? You know, why didn't you walk Manny Ramirez and I. And. And as a manager and a coach, you always have to take all the blame and you give all the credit to the other people. And I said, you know, I just felt I liked the matchup, and I believed in Mike and I thought he was, you know, he could get him out. And obviously, man, he's a great hitter, but I just like the matchup, you know, and he was hitting like.400 off him. You know, what kind of manager likes. But I put none of it on Mike's shoulders. Like, nothing came out about. Mike wanted to go after Manny Ramirez. And Mike ended up winning 20 games that year and was the only year he won 20 games in his career. And I thought, wow, no doubt. Even though that situation didn't work out, we lost that game. I learned a lot about managing people and the importance of showing belief in them.
- [47:25]
B
Yeah, there's. There's no doubt about that. Something that always struck me about. About being a manager in baseball is 162 games. And you mentioned. I mean, it's the next day, it's the next day, it's the next day. And, you know, in football, there's a rhythm to it, right? We talked about the day one meeting, have this day one meeting. We have team meetings every night in training camp, and you have meetings on Monday after games, and you meet again on all of that stuff. It doesn't strike me that baseball does that as much. You just kind of get into the flow of the season. Everybody kind of does their stuff, just talk about that rhythm.
- [48:03]
A
Well, I. I think if you're having a lot of meetings, you lose the players. I. I used to have a meeting the first day of spring training. I would have a meeting the first day of the season, one right before the All Star break, and then maybe one, if Things weren't going our way or I saw stuff that I didn't like. Guys are feeling sorry for themselves, or sometimes that happens. It's a long year. You can get in a rut. You're, you know, you got three guys that are, you know, one. One's one for 22, one's one for 24. And just we're not winning games. And. But a lot of times when I would choose to have a meeting is when I needed to encourage them.
- [48:41]
B
Yeah.
- [48:42]
A
Because I feel players, like, I had a mature team, they knew what they needed to do, they knew when they failed, they knew when they. They had success. I didn't need to share that with them.
- [48:52]
B
Yeah.
- [48:52]
A
You know, sometimes I would individually. I would individually touch every player every day as I walked around bp and we talked to all the relievers, the pitchers, and each guy at the cage. But we don't have a lot of meetings because we play every day, and you would lose them. Now, that's not to say that you don't have a scouting meeting the first day of every series. We would do that.
- [49:13]
B
Sure.
- [49:14]
A
But that's different than a team meeting.
- [49:15]
B
Sure. How about meeting with coaches? Is it. Is it the same kind of thing? Is it more just oriented towards baseball, or is it, hey, how are the guys doing? You know, you're talking to the pitching coach about the pitchers, the hitting coach about the hitters. Is there a lot of that kind of discussion or is that more kind of organic? And as you're just moving around through your day, it's.
- [49:37]
A
It's more organic and you making sure that you have a good feel of what your team's doing, like every day. When I walked into the office in New York, the first person I would see would be our mental conditioning coach. That was the first person I saw.
- [49:51]
B
Chad Bowling. Chad, you know, it's a good friend.
- [49:54]
A
Yeah. And I would say, is everyone okay? And is there anything I need to do? Then I would stop in the training room, who's hurting, who's been getting more treatment than they should be, the. Or the massage therapist. Has there been someone in here that's in here more than usual that I need to pay close attention to? And then I would talk to my coaches, hey, how's this guy doing? Does he need a day off? You know, do I need to do anything in this situation? Do I need to talk to him? And it was more organic, as you saw issues. Because playing every day, you got four hitters going well, four going bad. You know, you got five relievers going well, you got two going bad. You know, do I, do I. Do I need to talk to him or do I need. But for the most part, I let my coaches do it because they spend so much time with their players.
- [50:39]
B
Right.
- [50:39]
A
That they really know what's going on. And I let them do that. And if I had to step in, I would step in.
- [50:45]
B
Yeah. You know, something we talk about in leadership a lot is there's this mentality that, okay, I'm the leader and I'm leading downward to everybody. I'm the CEO, I have my people, I'm the president, I'm the head coach, I'm the manager. I'm leading down to my staff and to the players. One of the things that I always share with people is the importance of leading upward. Everybody has a boss, right? You have a general manager, you have an owner, you have a board, you have something like that. How important was, was it for you as the manager of the Yankees to lead upward to the Steinbrenners and to other people in the organization, Cashmen and those guys who are making some of the big decisions, and you consistently sharing your vision about the team and about the players?
- [51:29]
A
Oh, I think it's really important. I would meet with Hal every, Every home stand, I would meet with Hal. I would meet with Brian, you know, five out of seven days. You know, I would see him. I would see him every day. But we would talk. I would talk with the analytical people. I would talk, I would, I would talk with like the people that were running the suites and everything. Like, do I need to meet people during vp? Is there anything you need from me? And I think it's really important. But the other thing that I always thought was really important is you show that truly is the manager or the head coach. You're a servant. Yeah, you're. You're not in a position of. You're in a position of serving people. And that's what I always tried to do because that's what was most important to me, that, hey, yeah, I have to make the tough decisions, but I'm going to rely on you to help me make those tough decisions. I have to speak to the media, but truly, I'm here for you. You know Chuck Cottier, who was the third base coach with the Cubs for a long time, I used to love what he said. He says, I'm a big league coach. I pick up bats, balls and helmets. And that to me was a position of. I'm a servant. I'm here to work and do whatever players and front Office people need. And that's how I always looked at it.
- [52:46]
B
Yeah, it's awesome. Hey, one last thought here. You know, you win the World Series three times as a player with the Yankees. You win one as a manager with the Yankees. When you reflect back on those championship teams, those championship moments, and you're by yourself, is there anybody that you can say, this person, this group of people, they're the ones most responsible for me living out these dreams?
- [53:14]
A
Well, I think you go to your parents first.
- [53:16]
B
Yeah.
- [53:17]
A
The ability that they gave me to play so much, to. To do well in school, just how they taught me so much. I mean, I talked about my father, but my mother had a real toughness.
- [53:29]
B
Yeah.
- [53:30]
A
When she was diagnosed with cancer, she was given three to six months to live. She lived six years. And she didn't see my daughter or my sister graduate high school because she was getting treatment for her cancer. And at the end, she said, I want to see three things. I want to see my one son get into med school. I want to see my other son get into med school, and I want to see my daughter graduate college because I missed her high school graduation. All three of those things happened in May. She passed in June.
- [54:05]
B
Wow.
- [54:06]
A
There was something really special about her. Her toughness, her vision, what she wanted for us, that. I always go back and am so grateful for the parents that I have, because I would not be anywhere close to person I am. And I think about all the coaches. I mean, I mentioned Mr. Rogers, who coached me 10, 11, and 12 years old, and he always showed belief in me. There's just so many coaches that I go back to. But then you go back to the people that showed belief in you. And I think about Mr. Steinbrenner giving me the managerial job for the New York Yankees. Don Zimmer showing, telling everyone, you got to go get this catcher. Yeah, I know he doesn't hit a lot, but his defense will make a difference on this team. And those are the people that you're so thankful for, because Billy Crystal said it in 700 Sundays, which is a play about the 700 Sundays he was able to share with his father. He said, you won't truly have success until someone who truly loves you shows that they believe in you. And I had that from so many different people. And I think about my college coach and. And my teammates and all the people. There are too many people to thank. And for that, I'm truly blessed.
- [55:21]
B
Yeah. You know, something I always think about is the greatest gift you can give someone is to believe in them more than they believe in themselves and instill that belief. And I'm like you every step of the way. Mom, dad, brothers, sisters, everybody, coaches, teachers, every step of the way. I had people like that in my life. And in those moments, you take a deep breath and you're grateful for them all along the way, because obviously you're not in those great, amazing situations without those experiences.
- [55:51]
A
I had the opportunity to win four World Series with the New York Yankees. One of my favorite moments was presenting George Steinbrenner the Ring on opening day in 2010 at Yankee Stadium and thanking him for what he did for me, because he changed my whole life. Bringing me there as a player and allowing me to manage the New York changed my whole life. My wife's life's, my kids life. All for the better, and I will be forever grateful. And, you know, it says, you know, it takes a village to raise a, you know, a child. It. It really does. And it's the people that pour into you that really make a difference.
- [56:29]
B
Yeah, well, you poured into so many, Joe, and so many people are saying the same things about you. Your greatness, man. You're a great friend, and I can't thank you enough for being here. Brought coach to coach with us.
- [56:40]
A
I love you, Jason, and I look forward to hearing you back on when football starts, because I miss it.
- [56:44]
B
Thanks, man. Follow coach to coach on social media and listen wherever you get your podcasts.