← Coach2Coach W/ Jason Garrett
Coach2Coach W/ Jason Garrett
Sean McDermott: Developing Josh Allen and Overcoming Adversity in Coaching | EP 5
00:56:40
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- [00:00]
Sean McDermott
If this is who you say you are, then there is no way that you can coach this game, you know, so whether that game was going to go on or not, Sean McDermott was not going to coach that game the rest of the rest of the night because of who I said that I was and what I was about. That's the follow through to me on leadership.
- [00:22]
Jason Garrett
Joining us today is a dear friend of mine and someone who I respect greatly as a person and as a coach. Competed against him for a long, long time, and just one of the best in the business, Sean McDermott. How you doing, Sean?
- [00:35]
Sean McDermott
I'm great, Jason. How are you?
- [00:37]
Jason Garrett
I'm doing well. I like that Notre Dame hat.
- [00:40]
Sean McDermott
Yeah, man. It's the Irish, right? Go Irish. Luck of the Irish, man. It's. My daughter's going there in a year here for softball. So we're proud parents.
- [00:51]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, that's awesome. As you might know, I do a lot of those Notre Dame games for NBC. And you know, I always had great admiration for the place from afar. But being there a lot during the fall and meeting everybody, you know, the student athletes, the coaches, the administrators, it's just an amazing place. So excited for you and your family. It'll be a great experience for your daughter.
- [01:13]
Sean McDermott
No, it's been her dream since being a little kid. And it's pretty cool to be able to pursue that into the, you know, as an older adult and. Or a young adult, I guess I would say. But going to college at a spot where you kind of dreamed of going for years, and we're extremely grateful and proud of her.
- [01:33]
Jason Garrett
That's awesome. It takes a village. Great job. Congrats. Hey, I wanted to start with this 2017 to become the head coach of the Buffalo Bills and a team that had some great success back in the 90s. Four straight Super Bowls, but after that, you know, there was a real dry spell there. And you get an opportunity to go up there to be the head coach. Your first chance to be a head coach. And I'm just wondering, you start off pretty well, then you kind of fall back, you get to five and five and then you make a little run and you finish nine and seven and make the playoffs. And my thoughts are, what was your feeling like when you clinched a playoff berth in your first year and having to go some of that adverse through some of that adversity mid season?
- [02:25]
Sean McDermott
Yeah, great question, Jason. And you know, 17 year playoff drought is a little bit unique or a lot unique because of the parity in our league. So it was a challenge but the team, the staff, the building overall, they were in it to be determined to break the streak or the drought, I guess you would say, right? So what a great example of people coming together for one purpose, one cause, one common cause, and really feeling a part of something bigger. And we talked that season, especially at the beginning of that season and through some of those times that you're referencing, where we felt a 5 and 5 about really just this, hey, this could be the biggest turnaround in professional sports history. The guys really bought into that and they wanted to do that. They wanted to be a part of something bigger, like I said. And man, it was a unbelievable experience. We clinched the playoffs, we beat Miami at the end of the season, last regular season game. We needed a couple things at the end, one or two things to, to fall our way. And everybody needs that usually to get in at some point, whether it happens, you know, week 8 or week 16, 17 at this point, like it did for us and the Bengals, on a fourth down and long play, Andy Dalton throws a completion and a touchdown pass on 4th and long. And the locker room goes crazy. We're finishing up our game and I said, hey, the guys want to turn the TVs on in the locker, right? And I'm like, hey, no matter how this goes, we got to be proud of our season. And lo and behold, that happens and the place just erupts. We could even, we could even hear Bill's fans on the concourse above us jumping around celebrating. It was just, I mean, guys were crying. It was, it was unbelievable.
- [04:36]
Jason Garrett
That's awesome. It's hard to do. It's hard to do for any coach, but certainly a first year coach and. But the next year you fall back before you go on a great run, where you go to the playoffs, you know, seven straight years. How was the year in 2018 after you have that initial success, you feel like you got it going the right way and then all of a sudden there's the adversity you hit in year two.
- [05:01]
Sean McDermott
Well, that's human nature, right? We're going to see, we're going to come across adversity, whether it's a course of one season or in this case, 2018, our second season. So we get off to such a great start and that was really going to 2018. We draft Josh Allen and we knew it was going to be a year of growing and having a rookie quarterback. And Josh is so special. We knew that he was going to be special at some point. It's just so hard for young quarterbacks. In our league with these defenses and what gets thrown at them. And fortunately, Josh got hurt on top of that. And so. But it really became a year of growth for us, a reset year. And, you know, we look back on the lessons we learned from that, and I was just recently talking with another professional team outside of the NFL about this. Hey, when you have a good year, it is really hard to sustain success in sports, but also in life or corporate America. One of the hardest things to do. And. But we learned a lot about ourselves, a lot about the journey, and a lot about the process in that season of 2018 and coming out of that
- [06:17]
Jason Garrett
year,
- [06:19]
Sean McDermott
I had a meeting with the organization and we just talked about the climb because it was time. Josh was going into, at that point, his second season. We were in a spot where we could put more on him, and he was ready for it, and we added some pieces, and next thing you know, we're off and heading in. In the right direction. On this climb that we talked about,
- [06:44]
Jason Garrett
if there's one takeaway from that year that says, hey, we gotta refocus on this, was there anything that stood out to you?
- [06:54]
Sean McDermott
Well, overall, I would just say the human nature piece of how you handle, how you handle winning, it is, you know, it. It's like I said, it's human nature. Relaxation syndrome wants to get you and you think you've made it, but in reality, we hadn't made it. It's so hard to win in the NFL, so hard to sustain winning. So it's more of just, I think, the psychology that in the mindset that you have to have when you do experience success.
- [07:25]
Jason Garrett
Right.
- [07:25]
Sean McDermott
In order to do it again or even improve your.
- [07:29]
Jason Garrett
Your situation and your role as a leader in. In helping everybody understand that you certainly want to be positive and upbeat, but you also have to kind of, you know, hold their feet to the fire a little bit. Right.
- [07:40]
Sean McDermott
Yeah. And start. That starts with yourself. Right, Started starts with me and making sure that I'm. I'm, you know, still hungry and knowing that we're not to our ultimate goal. And. And yes, you know, at some. There's times you have to. You gotta be the bad guy at times, unfortunately. But you can do it in a respectful way of. In a constructive way of teaching and reminding this is where we're at and this is what yet needs to be, what work needs to be done.
- [08:13]
Jason Garrett
Yeah. You mentioned Josh Allen before, and I can't help but think that your experience with Andy Reid for all those years in Philly had to have had an impact on you in so many ways. And, and probably with seeing him handle quarterbacks through the years, so many different guys played quarterback for him, and it just seemed like he always had an amazing ability to not put a quarterback in a box. Probably going back to his time with Brett favre, but Donovan McNabb and Michael Vick and some of these guys, and for you to see him and then see Josh Allen, who probably has a lot of the same qualities, this, this big athletic guy with this huge arm, he's a little bit wild. Early on, how did you navigate Josh's development and how much did you rely on your experience with Andy?
- [09:01]
Sean McDermott
Yeah, a lot. I would tell you a lot. I mean, I took a lot of notes being around Andy in a lot of different areas, Jason. And you know, when you draft a quarterback in the first round, you draft someone like Donovan McNabb. Man, I had a front row seat to watch Donovan's development and growth and how he handled the media. And so I took a lot of notes, learned a ton. And similarly with Cam Newton, when I was in Carolina under Ron Rivera, drafted Cam in the first round, obviously, number one overall and same thing, right? So I had a. Although I wasn't in the head coach's seat during those two moments, it was really about learning. And so I took what I learned from both of those situations and tried to apply it to the best of my ability with Josh. Even though Josh is different, Donovan was different than Cam. And so, as you said, we try not to put players in a box, in particular quarterback. And Andy was terrific with that. And so it was really just about, hey, make sure, you know, we have the right plan for Josh's development on the field, off the field, how we're going to handle some plays that he's going to want back, that we're going to want back, and how we're going to handle, you know, some of those great moments that we know we're going to have, especially early. So all that, as you know, is what really leads to the development of a player, in particular a quarterback that is a position is there's none like it in professional sports, especially the NFL. They have so much on their plate, so much on their shoulders, and, you know, Josh obviously has gone on to great things and he's going to be one of the best who have ever played the position. And listen, I'm just proud to have been a part of it and it's been a true honor.
- [10:59]
Jason Garrett
Well, a huge part of it. Were there any breakthrough moments for him? You know, well documented he completed 52% of his passes his first year. And, you know, he did some stuff where he changed his motion and increased his. Improved his accuracy, and he's just grown before our eyes since then. But was there any inflection point for you where you said, boom, he's really starting to understand how to play quarterback at this level?
- [11:26]
Sean McDermott
Well, it takes some time, as you know, Jason, and having played it yourself and coached it and been a head coach, it's. It takes some time. You got to go against some of these intricate defenses and some of these great defensive play callers that are out there and take. Take some. Take some scars. And I took some, and he's taken some. But to watch him, I don't think there was just necessarily one game, but the game, I guess I would say might be playoff game against the Patriots, wild card game. We're at home, it's extremely cold, and I think we scored on just about every drive, and I think that's still a record possibly out there. Don't quote me on that. But Josh was really dialed in that week. He's always dialed in, but in particular that week, and we had already obviously played New England twice that year. It's hard to face a team three times and. And beat them. And so, you know, it was just one of those games that. That Josh was on fire. It went our way defensively and offensively, and, you know, it's. You can't script one of those games, but they. They come up from time to time. You just hope you're on the winning end of those.
- [12:38]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, I just thought you did such a remarkable job there. And, you know, I always think about the context of when a coach takes over, and there's great history and tradition in Buffalo we talked about, but there was that drought, and for you to be there nine years and take that team to the playoffs eight of those nine years, remarkable, you know, for me, you know, as good a job as anybody in the National Football League during that time, and amazing job that you did there. You know, there were some points, though, that, you know, we couldn't break through. We couldn't break through. We couldn't break through. And Kansas City seemed to be the nemesis, like, they were the nemesis for fricking everybody in the league. Right? I mean, your old boss, Andy, and he gets Patrick Mahomes. Those guys are hard to beat. You know, the. What the. I don't want to bring up a bad memory for you, but the game when you guys, you know, go ahead. And there's 13 seconds and all of that. Any thoughts on that experience leading up to it, what you learned from it and how you guys grew from that, from that adversity?
- [13:40]
Sean McDermott
You know, obviously a moment in my career as a head coach and in our journey in Buffalo that people will remember, and those are situations and the way they were handled and. And you always learn from those situations and you lead through them. You lead your team through them, and that's what we did. And you come back and you say, hey, we got right back at it again the next year and made the playoffs again for the next. I don't know, it would have been five years or something like that, four years, what have you. And the game comes down to every game in the NFL, it seems like, especially playoff games, and especially against a great hall of Fame coach like Andy and a Hall of future hall of Fame quarterback like, like Mahomes, that it's, it's going to be, you know, in the margins. It's going to come down to the final seconds, and it's a game of inches, and sometimes it goes your way, other times it doesn't. But I can promise you, I learned from that situation, and we learned as a staff from that situation as well.
- [14:37]
Jason Garrett
Yeah. You know, I had the opportunity to visit with Mariano Rivera many years ago once, and, you know, the greatest relief pitcher of all time. And I asked him, I said, you know, for the last 17 years, you never go into the game in the second inning, Right. You go into the game when the game is on the line and you might throw a handful of pitches and it's going to determine the outcome, and that's your job. And so, like you said, the games on the margins, particularly as you get close, I mean, you're in the AFC Championship game again and again, divisional round of the playoffs. I mean, those are the best of the best going against each other. And how do you train your team for those moments? Is it a matter of going through the situations? Is it talking to them about it? How do you, how do you train them and learn from the different experiences you've been in?
- [15:29]
Sean McDermott
Yeah, I mean, experience is a great teacher. Right. And when you're a head coach, you're just trying to win the first game, trying to, trying to win one game. And so, but you, you're so, you're so green. Even though for someone like me, prepared year after year after year, but, but writing notes and, but not being a seat, they're. They're two different things. Right. And so when you're in those situations, you come back I do, at least. And you follow up on taking notes and, and you learn from other people's situations or, or mistakes. And around the league, you're always studying the league, always studying yourself, always trying to improve our process. And I'm a very process driven person and decision maker and planner for that matter. So we always tried to have the best plan going into, in terms of schedule, in terms of how we handle situational football, and educating our team, educating our team on our standard and what we expected on a daily basis. And all those things that lead to putting your team into those moments and getting there is one thing, and then being in those moments and executing is another. And so whatever situations would come up the year prior, whether, you know, we had success with them or didn't, we were always trying to review those and do those on the practice field, but also in the, in the meeting rooms because again, for, for just me to know how we want to handle those situations, that's not enough. Your players need to know it, your coaches need to know it, your game management people need to know it. So we're on the same page. And that collaboration is critical in the off hours where you're not actually playing the game, but you're getting on the same page and as they call, you're building that alignment.
- [17:18]
Jason Garrett
Yeah. You know, analytics is such a big part of the world today, and it certainly has creeped into football. And you know, I heard someone from West Point say once that, you know, all decisions, you make, the big ones, there's incomplete information. Right. You can't let some analytics guy take you all the way to the decision making point. And we've gotten a lot more information, we're closer to that point. But there's always a gap between that information you have and the decision that has to be made. And that gap is filled by the wisdom, experience and instinct of the leader. And I'm wondering where, where you are on that, because I'm like you. I mean, preparation, process, all of that stuff that you just said, you're preaching to the choir. But, but you have to allow for a little of that Sean McDermott gut instinct, all your experience being around great coaches and great teams throughout your career, to say, hey, this is the thing we got to do, we got to go for it, we got to kick it, or whatever that decision is. What's the balance?
- [18:21]
Sean McDermott
Yeah, and you nailed it. When you, when you have resources at your fingertips like analytics or different things, those are, those are parts of the equation. Right. They're variables in the equation. But they're not the full answer. And as you mentioned, Jason, it's that gut instinct of hey, I've now processed all the information and we prepared, you know, back in the off season, we handled off season the right way. We've handled our week leading into the game the right way. The this is what we talked about, how we're going to handle it ultimately. Then you go into the game and it's like you're gathering information and it's all of a sudden the situation may be similar to, but never the same. I don't think any two situations are ever the same, maybe because of how you get there and your team and maybe whatever. So. But I think that's a great point of you fill that gap with your gut instinct and your feel for where you're at, where your team's at, what you gotta do as a leader. And I mean that's really the essence in a lot of ways of leadership. Right. Is it's tell me what the situation is and I'll tell you what type of leader I gotta be. Never, never abandoning one's core values. But that changes all the time in terms of the situation.
- [19:43]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, no doubt. You know, I've known you for a long, long time and I value our friendship. I'm always amazed that you and Mike Tomlin were, were college teammates and I think Dan Quinn was running around on the coaching staff that time too. Tell me, what was, yeah, what was your experience like at William and Mary playing for Coach Laycock?
- [20:01]
Sean McDermott
Oh, phenomenal. I couldn't have asked for a better head coach, a better program to be around than what was run by Coach Laycock at William and Mary. He's a true legend and a great friend and will be forever. Just learned so much about crafting a vision for one's program, developing, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, a standard of what's expected on a daily basis and then being able to hold oneself and others accountable to that standard and ultimately build player driven leadership where the players do the same thing amongst one another. And you know, one of the things for Mike and I, and certainly for me going to the NFL, I was a graduate assistant for one year under Coach Laycock at William Mary and then went to, went to the Eagles. And I felt like once I got to the Eagles that it was oddly familiar to me, even coming from a 1 AA program. And took me, I don't know, a couple weeks to think through that and I'm like, I understand why. It's because of the program, program that I was around for close to six years between my playing years and my coach and my one year coaching for Coach Laycock. And he gave me such a great head start. And not just myself, but so many others in life, but also in the coaching profession as well.
- [21:40]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, you know, he's a legend. And then, then you go to Philly, like you said, and you're working for Andy Reid and you know, Jim Johnson's there, one of the great defensive coordinators ever, Steve Spagnol is there, John Harbaugh is there. I mean, all these guys. What an incredible environment. Did you realize that it was as good environment at the time? Were you able to soak up all the stuff from being around those great coaches and great people?
- [22:05]
Sean McDermott
I didn't really. I didn't realize, Jason, how good I had it. I thought, you know, I was the only place I was in at the NF level at the time. And I certainly appreciated and was very grateful, but I didn't. I thought it was like that everywhere. And then you get out a little bit, you go to the combine and you talk to some other coaching friends and. And you start to realize, hang on, it's not like this everywhere. Meaning that the program that Andy then was running, and I would say Andy and Coach Laycock, two of my biggest mentors in the business. But also being around the coaches that you mentioned, among others, Steve Spagnolo, Leslie Frazier, Pat Shermer, Brad Chodas, Rod Dauhauer, Jim Johnson, I mean, Ron Rivera. There's more, right? John Harbaugh. I mean, I'm leaving some out, unfortunately, probably because there were so many that went on to become head coaches. I was like at the time, kind of a young brother on the staff. And I'll tell you who really, really invested in me, and that was Steve Spagnolo. And to this day, we are very close, and I can't thank him enough. It seemed like every job that he was kind of moving on to, I was being kind of backfilled into his old job, whether it was coaching the safeties, whether it was a quality control coach, coaching linebackers, db. So I learned so much by watching Spags. And then what he did for me was he would always give me his notebook, basically his how he did the job in that specific role. And that helped me kind of get. Get me started. And I can't thank him enough. And so I tried to do the same for others that came after me. And I mean, that was really, as I look at it now, that was really, to me, the Harvard of coaching. When you Talk about Andy and what was going on with that staff.
- [24:03]
Jason Garrett
Yeah. And if you think about all the different levels, you're seeing an elite, Elite head coach, obviously one of the best of all time. You're seeing an elite defensive coordinator. You're seeing elite, like you said, spags there, you know, at the different position coach levels. You're seeing it done at the highest level. And then those guys being so generous with you. I mean, I love spag. We competed against Spags for years. I mean, I'm with the Giants or the Cowboys against the Eagles, against the Giants, all of that. And he was one of those guys that was so hard to go against, but you loved him. We had such a great relationship. The competitive spirit that you have, but it goes beyond that. You know, you almost felt like we're in this together, even though we're fighting tooth and nail against each other. He's just got a unique way about him, doesn't he? He.
- [24:50]
Sean McDermott
He really does. And, you know, you kind of brought me back to some of our games against the Chiefs, and obviously, he. He won some, and we won some. But even. Even in the games that we won, Spags would always come up to me. Give me a big hug. And it was like we never even played the game for the last four hours. Right.
- [25:09]
Jason Garrett
No doubt.
- [25:10]
Sean McDermott
And you can really appreciate that, especially in our business, how competitive it is. Right. And he's one of a kind, for sure.
- [25:18]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, no doubt. Okay, so you get the opportunity in Buffalo, and it's day one, and you're thinking about crafting that vision that you talked about. I'm sure it's a combination of Laycock and Andy Reid and Ron Rivera and all of that. Was there anything in particular that stood out that said, you know, this Buffalo team is going to be this. We're going to stand for this. This is going to be the identity of this team going forward.
- [25:45]
Sean McDermott
Right. Well, like you mentioned a few minutes ago, Jason, you want to be who you are, authentically who you are. And I learned so much from Andy, from all the people that we've already talked about, and that helped mold me, but it also. There was also this certain. Certain degree of, hey, okay, Sean, who are you? Yeah, and. And what do you want this team to be in terms of the.
- [26:09]
Jason Garrett
The.
- [26:10]
Sean McDermott
The reflection of the personality of the head coach? And so this, you know, when I played, albeit not in the NFL, it was, you know, I was a smart player, and I wanted our players to. To be. To play smart football. I wanted them to be tough because I always prided myself and what I lacked in ability, I tried to make up in toughness. Right. And. And I also felt that that was. That that was a great connection to our city in Buffalo and the people in the community.
- [26:38]
Jason Garrett
Yeah.
- [26:38]
Sean McDermott
And that's huge. Right. That fit. And I didn't realize it. When you're looking for a job, you're just, you know, there's only 32 of them in the world, so you're trying to get your hands on just one of them. But I was so fortunate to end up in Buffalo because of the symmetry between who I am, how I was raised, how I'm currently raising my family. And in our community, that toughness that just bleeds out of Buffalo is part of who I am. And I felt like that was a great marriage and I wanted our teams to play that way, play really tough football. And, and you know, you're going to have to be able to play in the trenches because the weather's probably going to change at some point late in the year in Buffalo.
- [27:23]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, no doubt. You know, I used to always say this, that, you know, a lot of coaches, you hear them make a great speech or they have a great sign on the wall or they give you a sweatshirt or a T shirt with words on it, and they're always talking about certain things. But, but ultimately, the people you choose to be with you are the ones that reflect what your team is all about. You can say we're going to be smart and tough, but if you, but if you draft guys who aren't smart and aren't tough and don't represent the things you want, the players look at you like, coach, you're saying this, but really you believe this because you drafted this guy with a first round pick or you paid him all this money and he, he doesn't represent anything you're talking about. It's hard for me to think that during that process, when you're evaluating quarterbacks in 2018, that you didn't think that quarterback from Wyoming reflected everything that you were trying to bring to Buffalo.
- [28:15]
Sean McDermott
Well, you're right. And you know, there's nothing worse, I believe, from a leadership standpoint than a leader who has all these slogans but no follow through. Right. I mean, it's. You talk about buy in, you're not going to get buy in or you're not going to get it for very long if you're not following up on some of these things you're preaching. And so, yeah, we didn't have a lot of slogans for that reason in Buffalo. But the ones we had, we were going to make sure we followed through on. And, and to your point on Josh, I remember going through, you know, the vetting process that, that year leading into the draft and one of my boxes was the fit to Buffalo. And without a question, it was like, yeah, check, you know, if, if 10 is the highest, it was a 10. If 5 was the highest on the scale, it was a 5. And it just, you know, it worked out and, and you know, but it also takes a person and a player like Josh to come in and execute not only as a player, but also as a person right. In the community and to invest themselves and their time and make an impact in the community like he did and has for it to work. And, and so for that I applaud him.
- [29:31]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, no doubt. You know, my dad was a coach and a scout for a long time and I can remember being a kid and in the back of the station wagon, I can hear him say something like, hey, the head coach's number one job is to, is to, is to pick the right players for the team and then play the right guys. And you know, as a young kid, I'm like, what's he talking about? I mean, you know, isn't it about calling the plays or is it about this, that or the other thing? And you know, when you've been in that, in that seat, like I said, you can make all these slogans and all these speeches, but getting the right people to come with you, players and coaches and then, and then getting, you know, playing the right ones and putting them in the right roles, it's really the biggest thing you do as a head coach.
- [30:12]
Sean McDermott
Isn't, certainly is. I mean, you got to, it's the people quotient.
- [30:17]
Jason Garrett
Right.
- [30:17]
Sean McDermott
The staff, as you mentioned, it's not just the players, it's the staff and the players. And it really is a puzzle that you're trying to put together piece by piece. Never the most talented, but you certainly need talent. And it kind of ebbs and flows from there. But I found that to be one of the greater challenges of the job every year. And that's where getting the right people, getting the right people in the locker room who can handle a three game losing streak, how's that going to be, how's this person going to be with that? And I mean, it's really one of the fascinating things of trying to build a team and a successful one at that.
- [30:57]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, you know, I always think about, you know, the biggest challenges of a leader sometimes, you know, just Making hard decisions about personnel. And you're in Philly. When Andy makes the decision to move on from Donovan McNabb, who's right, he's the forefront of the organization for long, long time and a big part of your guy's success. And then he has courage enough to make that decision. And I'm sure you saw him make a lot of other decisions like that at lesser profile positions. Was that something you were taking in at the time? And how do you, as a head coach for all these years in Buffalo, how do you process that part of the job? It's one of the biggest challenges, right?
- [31:44]
Sean McDermott
No, it is. You know, again, we go back to who do you say you are? And if you say you are X, then the follow through needs to be X. Right? So Andy did that. Andy always said it was about the team, and that's. That's how it was for him. And every decision that he then made with respect to our team, and I saw that modeled firsthand every day. And so that was not easy because those decisions are never easy when it comes to people's jobs and whatnot. In those situations, those are tough, hard decisions to make, but you do them with great process, great empathy, and also, ultimately then, hey, what's the best decision for in this case, the team and Andy had a lot of tough decisions to make. And then I learned myself how hard those were firsthand and. But again, experience is a great teacher.
- [32:54]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, no, no doubt. You know, we used to. You talk about expectations and standards, and one of the first things I would say to the team and Training Camp Line 1 is every decision we make is going to be in the best interest of the entire Dallas Cowboys football team, period. Not any coach, not any player, not anybody, you know, and we're not always going to be right, but know that our intention is, this is why we're doing this decision. This is why we're making this call in this particular situation. So I'm curious what you learned from Jim Johnson, you know, one of the all time greats, and as someone who went against him, you know, as an offensive coordinator, trying to match wits with him, it was a hard. It was a hard day. Now, but what was his impact on you?
- [33:40]
Sean McDermott
It was. It was profound in terms of, you know, who he was as a person in particular in the off season, very, you know, during the season, very intense. Hard to find a minute without him being intense in the building or on the field. But off off season, he was as laid back as, as anyone, and he taught me a lot about Life in the NFL as a coach. But then on the field, the way he was ahead of the game in terms of his, how he, I want to say defended offenses, but really, I think the word is attacked offense. Right. I mean he, he was, he didn't like quarterbacks. And I tell my guys in Buffalo when I was there, I don't like any quarterback other than you guys. Right. And so it's, he had a, just a disdain for opposing quarterbacks and he made them very aware of that in particular early in games and because he knew that that had a trickle down effect later when it was going to be, you know, critical situations and whatnot. But, you know, I would say at the time, Dick LeBeau and Jim Johnson were kind of, for me, the forefathers of what was going on in the game defensively when I was coming up. And the way they zoned, pressured and brought five, brought four, but it was a different four and covered behind it. And I mean, who would have ever thought you'd be dropping defensive ends into coverage, right. Of all things. And, and so Jim was way ahead of his time and he's dearly missed, for sure.
- [35:28]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, no doubt. Amazing. And those are some of those situations to reflect back on. And again, as an offensive coordinator at the time, going against him, it's like, boy, what, what an amazing experience to be able to have the opportunity to compete against a guy like that. And you know, it's the same thing with spags. I mean, the rule was always sit on the fastball, react to the curve. So every, every time, as a play caller, you know, as a quarterback, you expect heat every single down because you never know, you know, he's going to bring pressure from everywhere. So that's line one, that's the fastball. And then anything else that comes off of that, we can react to it. If they play it straight, hey, we're going to be fine. But you know, they put, they put that kind of mental pressure on you every snap, don't they?
- [36:14]
Sean McDermott
Yeah, I love, I love that analogy. It's, it's, it's spot on. I mean, you can't, there's no way when that pitch is coming that you're going to be able to, okay, it's, it's going to be a fastball, curveball, anticipate it all or what location, inside, outside, you know, straight over the dead middle of the plate. But you had, I think that was, that's probably the best way to anticipate what was coming because you never knew even, even for us when we would game plan, we're putting it in and I'm putting it in with our players and I'm coaching safeties or linebackers and I mean there's a new two or three blitzes every week. Even when I was the quality control coach, he's Jim's coming in. It was usually a Tuesday, maybe Wednesday, when the first and second down plan is pretty much already in. He put three new, you know, hand drawn blitzes on my desk and of course I had to do them on the computer. And he was a mastermind for sure. I still have, I kept a notebook. It's, it's probably this, this thick of all gyms, kind of a Rolodex of his pressures and hey, weak, strong at a tight end, open side and, and the notes I go back to in the upper right hand corner were basically the why of hey, who were we playing that week? It was Michael Vick, it was Tony Romo, you know, whoever. It's, it's kind of interesting to go back and look at those.
- [37:37]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, no doubt. And I can't help but think that that style of defense empowers players. You know, you think about Dawkins all over the defense and coming off the edge and I, you can't help but think that those guys were energized by having the opportunity to play in that system.
- [37:55]
Sean McDermott
Right. And players, they love to be in aggressive systems right now. You get them thinking too much, they're not going to be at their best. But. And there's a balance to that. But at the same time, players, and I've talked to players over the years and they just, they love being aggressive and they like, they want an aggressive play caller and, and so we were very aggressive and. But you also have to, you also have to. I think the balance of it all is you've got to know who you have. And hey, we love to be able to get there with four. Right. I think all of us love that. But, but you can't always do the same thing all the time. So the blend of it all, I think is where kind of the, you know, where the gold is in the play caller's hands.
- [38:36]
Jason Garrett
Yeah. You know, back to your experience in Buffalo, if you had to, if you had to try to put your finger on, you know, what that team, that organization needs to do to break through. Is there any one particular thing or do you feel like, you know, it's, it's, you know, different team every year, different circumstances. My feeling is you go to the playoffs eight out of nine years you're giving yourself a chance and you're going to break through. There's a long history of that in all kinds of sports, right, where teams knock on the door, knock on the door and then they knock it through. What, what do you think is the, is the missing piece for them right now?
- [39:14]
Sean McDermott
Well, if you look at it, you know, and we were really close, I mean, even the games, you know, we talk about our, our playoff, you know, situations or whatnot. Some of those games we wanted, some of those games were super close. I mean, you're talking about a catch or a no catch. You're talking about, as you mentioned. So, you know, the thing I love about our team, even in defeat, they battled, right? They battled to the last quarter and the last second. And so, you know, I thought some of the moves, I haven't followed everything, but some of the moves that have been made, I think are, were necessary and important moves for, for that club going from last year to this year. And seems like they made a number of moves on the defensive side. And you know, I do, I feel like, you know, that they're in a spot to, to win a Super Bowl. They, you know, Joe Brady is going to do a great job. He's smart, he's another William Mary guy and he studied four years under us there and under myself, and I think he's going to do a phenomenal job for him.
- [40:15]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, no doubt. What are your thoughts? I mean, obviously you're one of the most accomplished coaches in the NFL and you know, you certainly have opportunities to do a lot of different things. Was the thought just to take a year off, take a breath and then get back at it in 2027?
- [40:33]
Sean McDermott
Correct? Absolutely. Yeah. Listen, I love leading, I love leading a team and I have a burning desire to lead a team to a world championship. Jason. And at the time, coming off of the season, we had been eight and nine years in the playoffs. And so those get long years. And so for me and my family, it was an opportunity to say, hey, you know what, before we jump right back in, let's take a little bit of time and reflect and catch our breaths here. And it's given me a real unique opportunity to kind of do a 360 degree reflection and evaluation of, of myself, spend time with my family, of course, which is important to me and I enjoy doing that. And then also really learn as well and, and spending some time in, in different areas trying to learn and, and build on the success that we did have in Buffalo. That's, that's what I'm planning to do, Lord willing, in the future here.
- [41:37]
Jason Garrett
Yeah. Not trying to delve into anything too personal, but on the 360 review, anything come out that was particularly interesting for you?
- [41:48]
Sean McDermott
Oh, man. I was just up at the Giants and I took about 10 pages of notes and got back earlier from visiting with another professional team outside of football. But nothing that I could say that is like, hey, I've kind of crystallized it to this point. It's just all that process continues for me. And as you know, you're always growing, right? You're always wanting to learn, hey, we did this. How are you doing it? And I really am focused on just being elite in all areas. And I think that constant pursuit of wisdom and knowledge is just really how I'm wired. And I'm not really one to sit around and say, well, you know, I've done this or accomplished that. And we have. We had a lot of success in Buffalo, and there's really one thing left to do on my coaching resume, and that's to. That's to win a Super Bowl. So I'm in pursuit of that, but also enjoying a little bit of downtime with my family right now.
- [42:57]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, no doubt. You know, I've been fortunate in this. In the media world that I'm in right now, I've been in 21 of the 32 buildings over the last four years. And everybody like yourself, very grateful for the experience I've had up in Buffalo, where you can sit in meetings, I'm in the team meeting or the offensive meeting or the quarterback meeting, and out of practice and get a chance to talk to people. And it's really interesting because I'm not so sure people fully understand that when you're coaching a team, you're with that team, you're with that team all the time, and sometimes you wonder how other people are doing things, and you talk to people in the off season or whatever, but to have the opportunity to sit in and feel it like you did the other day with the Giants, and I've done with you and other places, you know, it really can be impactful on you.
- [43:43]
Sean McDermott
Absolutely. It's rare. It's rare in that way.
- [43:47]
Jason Garrett
Right.
- [43:48]
Sean McDermott
Usually you're on this cycle of the season, the draft, the. The free agency, the draft, and then you're with your own team. You hit about four or five weeks of vacation, and then you're into training camp, and it's a cycle, and it never stops. And so even though you find time. Windows of time to learn while you're on the job. It's a situation like this for me that is, man, it's not that you want to be there, but it's an opportunity to say, hey, we're going to take advantage of this. And I get a chance to go and learn from John Harbaugh, who, yes, we came up both around Andy. Right. For. I think I was with John for eight years. But to see how he then has make it, made it his own and compare and contrast notes of how you doing this, how you doing that, and it's. And get, get into another building, as you mentioned. I mean, you're, you've been in 20 some. You said buildings in four years. And no one's going to let you in their building when you're coaching for another team.
- [44:50]
Jason Garrett
Sure.
- [44:52]
Sean McDermott
So in the NFL, we do share, but we also hold a lot back. Right. And so it's. You gotta, if you want to really get into that, you gotta go to a college program. And again, the windows of time are small. And when you get a chance to do that. So this has been a really unique opportunity. And like I said, this is one we're taking advantage of.
- [45:18]
Jason Garrett
One of the things that struck me when I was up visiting you guys in Buffalo is practice was great, really enjoyed it. And I look out after practice and your son is out there. You're kind of 10 or 15 yards away and your son's working with Josh Allen after practice on throwing the football. And just a couple thoughts. You including your family into, you know, that whole workspace, which is so unique, and then an opportunity for your son to work with one of the, one of the best to ever do it. Great experiences, right?
- [45:52]
Sean McDermott
Yeah. Yeah. Well, obviously I wasn't enough of a teacher for him, so he had to go. He had to go to the best.
- [45:57]
Jason Garrett
Yeah.
- [45:58]
Sean McDermott
Now it's. Listen, when you're, as you know, and you grew up around a dad that was a coach. I grew up. My father was a coach. I vividly remember those days. Going to training camp or before practice, after practice, in the stretching lines, walking through kind of the lines and the, and the dew on the grass is getting all over my shoes and you're just the smell in the air. And those are great memories. Right. And I wanted my kids, but also collectively our culture to be about family. And these, these coaches, the staff, the players too, spend so much time, sacrifice so much. But guess who also sacrifices the families. Right. And so we, we did a. What I thought was a really good thing and we opened up our doors to the families. Hey, you got kids, you want to bring them in? Let's, you know, bring them out to practice. Come watch practice the day before we leave for a game on a Saturday or even a home game, come watch us practice. I mean, that, that connection, it just helps everything, right? It helps winning, it helps family dynamics. There's so much stress on, on the families. It's. I think it's an important part of being a transformational culture and not just a transactional one.
- [47:20]
Jason Garrett
Yeah. Hey, back to your William and Mary days. What was Mike Tomlin like back then? And did you, did you see him as someone who is going to, you know, leap into greatness like he has? He's now going to be our partner at NBC, so I'm looking forward to working with him.
- [47:34]
Sean McDermott
Yeah, no, you know, you got your hands full, I can just tell you that. Jason.
- [47:39]
Jason Garrett
I know that. I know that already.
- [47:41]
Sean McDermott
No, it's funny because everyone that doesn't know Mike in terms of back from college like I do, they think like he's come up with these new slogans and lines and he, he makes them all up or he must rehearse them because he's such a, he's so good with his words. Right. And the truth is that he was the same way in college when he would, he was a fifth year senior, I was a freshman. He would come to the middle, being one of the captains after practice, break the team down. And he just had a unbelievably unique way of communicating, just like he does now in his press conference. And I'm sure, I'm sure his team meetings and I've talked to some of the players that have played for him and they've, they've experienced the same. So I think he's going to do a great job. I think he's going to be great for, for the, for the team. And I'm sure he's looking forward to it.
- [48:36]
Jason Garrett
Yeah. You know, my last year playing was in Tampa bay. It was 2004. I played with the Cowboys for eight years and the Giants for four. And getting to the point where I was, what's next? And I said, what the heck, I'm going to go down. And I signed with the Buccaneers. Jon Gruden was the head coach, Monty Kiffin was the defensive coordinator. Rod Marinelli is there. Rich Passage is there. All these guys, amazing coaches, great team. And I come out of the locker room and I'm first day of practice and I'm not on the field for, for 10 minutes, I'm like, who is that guy? And it was Mike Tomlin working with the dbs. I'm like, huh, that guy's a pretty good coach. And he was. I Bet he was 32 years old at, you know.
- [49:17]
Sean McDermott
Right.
- [49:18]
Jason Garrett
Just a young guy coming up. But you could tell right from the start.
- [49:22]
Sean McDermott
Oh, yeah, his energy, his ability to communicate, his sense of humor as well. I mean, he's a fun. He's a funny. He's a character. Right. And you've seen it. I've seen it. And his humor, his energy, his wisdom on top of that. I mean, it's. He's going to be great in that. In whatever role he's in, in life. But also when you guys team up there, it's going to be great to see.
- [49:47]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, no doubt. Hey, just a couple more questions. The best thing you did in Buffalo during your time there, and what was the thing that you say, I got to get it better in that area?
- [50:00]
Sean McDermott
Well, I hope the best thing that I did, and I believe this, as a head coach, you want to win games, and that's certainly your job and your responsibility. I think that that combined with making a. A positive impact in the community, that, to me, is really the full role of a head coach. When you take a job in professional sports, it's winning and winning in such a way that it impacts the community in a positive way. And I hope our family left Buffalo in a good spot, and I believe we did in terms of learning or something I could have done better. I mean, you're always wanting to win the Super Bowl. You're always wanting to win the World Championship. That's the goal. Or my. In my mind, should be the goal of every team when you start. And. And so for me, that. That goal is still out there. That's. That's. That's. I'm still in pursuit of that goal, so. I wish I could have brought a world championship to. To the Buffalo Bills and. And to the community and Bills fans all across the world. And so, you know, that's. But that hunger is. That hunger is still in. In my heart here, so.
- [51:07]
Jason Garrett
But they'll.
- [51:07]
Sean McDermott
They'll forever be in my heart and. And in our thoughts here as a McDermott family.
- [51:12]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, it's awesome. Done an amazing job. You know, I think about all the highs and lows that you go through as a head coach or, you know, as a player in the National Football League, and many of them are. Are what happens on the field. Great successes where you win a game or you win a championship or you have a heartbreaking loss. But some of them are off the field, too. And you had a unique situation where it's kind of a combination of two when you think about the demar Hamlin situation. And, you know, leaders reveal themselves, you know, in traumatic situations, and that's probably as traumatic as it comes. You know, how did you handle that situation and how did you get the team to respond the way they did?
- [52:02]
Sean McDermott
Well, that was a unique night as well, and one that I hope I never experience again. And first of all, thankful that Demar is doing well and thriving and playing football again, but more importantly, healthy and with us, because that was certainly a scary, scary event and one that as a coach, you never think you'd experience when you sign up for a job. Sure. And. But what I, what I really tried to execute that night was following through on what I pretty much start every season with, with our team in our, in our first team meeting is communicating to the players that their health and safety is, is number one above, believe it or not, winning games. And so when demar went down that night, you could tell pretty early that something wasn't like a normal injury. Something was, something was different. I happened to be able to see what was going on a little bit with Demar, but then also the way our trainers were reacting once they understood what was going on, and certainly they knew more at that point than I did, but I just knew something wasn't, wasn't right. And the way that they responded, I can't thank them enough. And they were fantastic. But there's no playbook for it. Right. How are you going to handle what's going on in the field, unfolding on the field at the time? How are you going to handle return to play, how you're going to handle the next, you know, days that, that were going to come the next week? And I would just tell you this, that, you know, because there was no playbook. I take a lot of notes, a lot of preparation over the years leading into the head coaching job. I just said at that point in time, hey, listen, if this is who you say you are, then there is no way that you can coach this game, you know, so whether that game was going to go on or not, Sean McDermott was not going to coach that game the rest of the. The rest of the night because of who I said that I was and what I was about, that's the follow through to me on leadership. Right?
- [54:28]
Jason Garrett
Yeah.
- [54:30]
Sean McDermott
And then it just so happened that we both teams decided, the NFL decided not to play. And so myself, Brandon being our general manager, Terry Our owner, Terry Pegula, and one of our training staff members went over to the hospital, spent some time with Demar's parents, and. And then we returned to the team plane, met the team at the team plane, and I jumped on the intercom and gave them a quick update on, at least on what we knew to that. To that point. And then every day after that, leading into the next week's, we tried to get an update, and I would communicate that to our team in a team meeting. And at one point, we got so far as to be able to FaceTime demar from his hospital room. And you can imagine the emotion in the room that morning.
- [55:32]
Jason Garrett
I always think that the energy and the character of the leader pervades the team. And to me, that's. That's probably the most sterling example for me of you throughout your amazing career as an assistant, as a coordinator, and then certainly as a head coach. You know, that moment, how you handled that and how you supported Demar, his family, you know, your team, everything you stood for. I just thought. I thought it was remarkable and a great reflection of who you are and who you've always been.
- [56:01]
Sean McDermott
Appreciate that. Hey, I appreciate that. Thank you, Jason.
- [56:06]
Jason Garrett
Yeah, you're awesome. Hey, can't thank you enough for coming on coach to coach. I could do this all day long, and I just have so much respect for you as a person, as a coach, and I know great things are ahead.
- [56:20]
Sean McDermott
I appreciate that. Jason, I think the world of you. You've always handled yourself with class, a true friend and pro and I respect to have out of you.
- [56:28]
Jason Garrett
Thanks, man. Look forward to talking to you soon. Follow coach to coach on social media and listen wherever you get your podcasts.