450R: The Way to Influence Executives, with Nancy Duarte

Summary

Podcast Summary: Coaching for Leaders - Episode 450R: The Way to Influence Executives with Nancy Duarte

Introduction

In Episode 450R of Coaching for Leaders, hosted by Dave Stachowiak, the focus is on mastering the art of influencing executives—a crucial skill for any leader aiming to drive impactful change within an organization. Dave welcomes Nancy Duarte, a renowned communication expert and author, to delve deep into effective strategies for communicating with top-level executives. This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and actionable advice shared during the episode.

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Understanding the Power of Storytelling with Data

Timestamp: [03:07]

Nancy Duarte introduces the foundational concept of blending data with storytelling to create compelling narratives that resonate with executives. She emphasizes that stories, grounded in factual data, activate the brain's sensory regions, enhancing memory and emotional connection.

Nancy Duarte: "We have so much brain science now. We can hook up an fMRI machine to the human brain while the story is being told, and the results are fascinating... applying story structures to data is what this book does."

Duarte elucidates how structuring data within a narrative framework not only makes information more digestible but also ensures it "lives in my heart forever" ([04:21]).

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Tailoring Communication to Executive Preferences

Timestamp: [05:28]

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around customizing communication strategies to align with executives' preferences. Nancy highlights that executives often prefer succinct, visually engaging presentations that allow them to process information rapidly.

Nancy Duarte: "Are they spoken word or visual people? Are they better when I hop in the car with them on their way to the airport?"

Duarte advocates for understanding whether an executive favors written reports, visual presentations, or verbal discussions, enabling presenters to align their delivery method accordingly.

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Strategies for Effective Executive Briefings

Timestamp: [07:54]

Nancy Duarte and Dave discuss practical strategies to maximize the efficiency of executive meetings. Key strategies include:

1. Use of Read-Aheads: Presenting dense, skimmable slide documents in advance allows executives to review information at their own pace, facilitating more focused discussions during meetings.

   Nancy Duarte: "If you have 30 minutes for briefing an executive, your invitation is prep 15 minutes and be really concise and clear so they have time to ask you the questions." ([12:08])

2. Anticipating Interruptions: Executives may interject with questions or seek clarification. Being well-prepared ensures that presenters can handle interruptions gracefully and maintain the flow of the presentation.

   Nancy Duarte: "If you’re willing to follow some of these breadcrumbs and think from the perspective of the executive, it’s going to help us to do a better job of serving them well." ([26:51])

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The Importance of Sponsors in Executive Communications

Timestamp: [19:11]

Nancy introduces the concept of a sponsor—a mentor or supporter within the organization who guides and prepares you for executive interactions. Sponsors provide invaluable insights into the preferences and expectations of executives, enhancing the effectiveness of your communication.

Nancy Duarte: "A sponsor is somebody who will teach you the ways of the mysteries of executives... having a sponsor or not." ([20:18])

Sponsors help navigate organizational politics, determine the best communication channels, and offer feedback on presentation styles, ensuring that your message aligns with executive priorities.

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Executives' Core Metrics: Money, Market, and Exposure

Timestamp: [27:18]

Nancy discusses a pivotal framework from Dave's book, categorizing executives' key performance metrics into three areas:

1. Money: Focusing on revenue growth, profitability, and cost management.
2. Market: Enhancing market share, reducing time-to-market, and eliminating obstacles to growth.
3. Exposure: Increasing client and employee retention while mitigating risks.

Nancy Duarte: "If you can tie your initiative to one of these things they’re measured on and you use the language, they’ll see it right away." ([28:41])

Understanding these metrics allows leaders to tailor their proposals and communications to address what executives truly care about, thereby increasing the likelihood of gaining their support.

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Preparing Mentally and Logistically for Executive Meetings

Timestamp: [15:13]

The conversation underscores the importance of mental preparation before engaging with executives. Techniques discussed include:

• Confidence in Material: Deep familiarity with your content reduces anxiety and enhances the ability to respond to unexpected questions.
• Simulating Executive Interrogation: Practicing with colleagues by simulating tough questioning can build resilience and adaptability.
• Physical Preparation: Techniques like breathing exercises or yoga can help manage stress and maintain composure.

Nancy Duarte: "Whatever to your true self, have you walk in there controlled and confident and knowledgeable. That's what you need to do." ([17:28])

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Adapting Communication Styles Across Different Executives and Organizations

Timestamp: [25:01]

Nancy emphasizes that each executive and organization may have unique communication preferences. Successful leaders invest time in learning these nuances to ensure their messages are received as intended.

Nancy Duarte: "The medium is really important... use the bold tool, use colors, use the highlighter function... make sure they see what was the most important part." ([22:31])

This adaptability extends to understanding cultural and organizational contexts, ensuring that communication is both effective and respectful of the executive's environment.

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Transformational Leadership and Organizational Change

Timestamp: [33:07]

In the latter part of the episode, Nancy shares her personal journey of leadership transformation, highlighting the challenges and rewards of fostering a high-performing organizational culture. She discusses the difficult decisions involved in letting go of underperformers to drive the organization forward, underscoring the delicate balance between empathy and strategic action.

Nancy Duarte: "The people that get you and your organization to one point aren't always the people that are the ones to take you into the next phase." ([34:49])

This reflection offers valuable insights into the often-painful but necessary steps leaders must take to sustain and enhance organizational vitality.

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Conclusion

Episode 450R of Coaching for Leaders offers a comprehensive exploration of effective strategies for influencing executives. Nancy Duarte’s expertise illuminates the critical interplay between data, storytelling, and tailored communication. By understanding executive metrics, preparing meticulously, and leveraging sponsorship, leaders can enhance their ability to persuade and drive meaningful change within their organizations. This episode serves as an invaluable resource for leaders seeking to refine their approach to executive interactions and elevate their leadership impact.

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Notable Quotes

1. “Tell me the truth and I'll believe, but tell me a story and it will live in my heart forever.” — Nancy Duarte ([04:21])

2. “If you have 30 minutes for briefing an executive, your invitation is prep 15 minutes and be really concise and clear so they have time to ask you the questions.” — Nancy Duarte ([12:08])

3. “A sponsor is somebody who will teach you the ways of the mysteries of executives.” — Nancy Duarte ([19:11])

4. “Whatever to your true self, have you walk in there controlled and confident and knowledgeable. That's what you need to do.” — Nancy Duarte ([17:28])

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Further Resources

To delve deeper into the strategies discussed, consider exploring Nancy Duarte’s book, Data Story: Explain Data and Inspire Action Through Story. Additionally, Dave Stachowiak invites listeners to join the Coaching for Leaders Academy for personalized leadership development.

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Join the Conversation

For those inspired by this episode, consider setting up a free membership at CoachingforLeaders.com to access a vast library of leadership resources and engage with a community of like-minded professionals.

Transcript

[Dave Stahoviak]

Hi, Dave Stahoviak here. You heard last week that I'm on a brief break for new episodes until next Monday, the 21st. So today I'm bringing you another conversation that aired a while back that I reference all the time. I get asked regularly about how to manage UP and especially how to talk to executives, whether those executives are internal folks or are external stakeholders, customers or donors. Nancy Duarte knows more about this than almost anybody. Not only has she lived it as an executive herself, but her firm, Duarte, is at the forefront of helping top leaders with persuasive communication. I'm constantly pointing our members back to this conversation and I know that you'll find it helpful as well. One other quick note. I've got a survey out this week to get your input on the podcast and much more. If you didn't already get an email inviting you to complete it, I would love your input too. It's a quick two to three minutes will help me know how to best serve you.

[Nancy Duarte]

Ongoing.

[Dave Stahoviak]

Go over to coaching4leaders.com survey to complete it and thanks in advance if you do. And now this is a rebroadcast of Coaching for Leaders Episode 450 produced by.

[Unknown]

Innovate Learning Maximizing Human Potential.

[Dave Stahoviak]

Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders and I'm.

[Nancy Duarte]

Your host, Dave Stahoviak. Leaders aren't born, they're made and this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. A key skill that leaders need is to be able to influence. To be able influence in so many different venues, presentations being one of them and one of the audiences that we all need to influence. Well, I should say almost all of us need to be able to influence well is executives. Whether those be executives in our own organization, whether those be executives in another organization. Today I'm really glad to welcome back to the show someone who has a great expertise on doing this. Sometimes there is just one person who comes to mind when you need to discover how to do something better. And if you ask me who the.

[Dave Stahoviak]

Leading expert in the world is on.

[Nancy Duarte]

Visual messaging, that's easy. It's Nancy Duarte. Nancy is a communication expert who has been featured in Fortune, Time Magazine, Forbes, Fast Company, the Wall Street Journal, New.

[Dave Stahoviak]

York Times, many others.

[Nancy Duarte]

Her firm, Duarte Inc. Is the global leader behind some of the most influential visual messages in business and culture. As a persuasion expert, she cracked the code for effectively incorporating story patterns into business communications. She's written many best selling books including Slideology, Resonate and Illuminate she is the author of the new book Data Explain Data and Inspire Action through Story.

[Dave Stahoviak]

Nancy, so glad to have you back on the show.

[Unknown]

Thanks for having me.

[Nancy Duarte]

The pleasure is mine. You have released a new book on.

[Dave Stahoviak]

Data and story together, and I think.

[Nancy Duarte]

There'S an intersection there that you're really looking at with this book. Tell me about the intersection of those two words, data and story.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's funny. As I talk to analytical profiles, the word story sometimes freaks people out because they think when I say the word story, it means fiction or fairy tales or fantasy. And that is not how I use the word story. We have so much brain science now. We can hook up an FMRI machine up to the human brain while the story is being told, and the results are fascinating. So the sensory parts of the brain light up. My brain and your brain would synchronize at the same part, at the same time while a story is being told. And its power is just. It's crazy for the ability to recall and retell what we're hearing. And so applying story structures to data is what this book does. So that once you get to a place where you found the problem or the opportunity in the data, you have a communication situation. Suddenly now you have to communicate the problem or the opportunity you found in the data. And that's where this book Data Story kicks in, where it'll teach you how to frame what needs to happen because of the data in the shape of a story.

[Nancy Duarte]

Yeah, it's so fascinating. The science behind what we, I think, intuitively know as human beings. We hear someone tell a great story. And like you said, it's not about fiction or a novel necessarily, but it's about what's memorable. And I think about you have this wonderful quote in the book, Native American proverb that says, tell me the facts and I'll learn. Tell me the truth and I'll believe, but tell me a story and it will live in my heart forever. And I love that quote because it just speaks to the human experience of when it's a story. It's so much more likely that we're going to be able to remember it forever.

[Unknown]

It is something about the shape of it, the structure of it and how it's told, how it's actually delivered that makes it live in your heart forever. And I think data can do that, especially when so much of what we're doing, major decisions today, are made from data and shaping it in something that moves the human heart. You're not changing the data. The data is still true. It's still fact, but shaping it in a way that lives in a heart forever is. That's amazing.

[Nancy Duarte]

Yeah. And I appreciate you saying the word shape because how we shape it does vary depending on who our audience is. And your work is so focused on serving the audience well, whoever that audience is. And there is a difference, especially in a professional capacity, of who we're talking to, whether it's we're talking to our peers, whether we're talking to managers, or whether we're talking to executives. And specifically with executives, there are things that are different that we would do than if we were talking to a peer or a manager. Perhaps what's different about persuading executives?

[Unknown]

You know, I think executives got into the position that they are in because they're pretty bright. And what happens sometimes is people try to fill in more gaps than an executive needs and they work really, really quickly and are pretty bright. So if you present, if you have the opportunity to present to a board or an exec staff meeting, the minute they hear what you're proposing, most everything is filled in. They can see a lot of things. And so what you have to do is be brief, maybe even get a sponsor who has communicated to this executive before so you can understand how they information, what formats they receive it in, but also how they like to receive information and what type of information. I spent a lot of time on this, so there's probably a lot to unpack about how executives receive information.

[Nancy Duarte]

Yeah. And one of the things you, you said there a moment ago is the word brief. In so many meetings, you know, the standard is, you know, a half hour. You've got a half hour to make your case or whatever to whoever you're presenting to. And one of the things that's just interesting is the level of efficiency that executives need to work at. And one of the things I really appreciate you including in the book is some real life examples of how you as an executive managed your time. Because I think that sometimes we know that like executives have limited time and they need to work efficiently, but I think sometimes we don't do what Dale Carnegie would challenge us to do, which is try honestly to see things from the other person's perspective and really understand where you're coming from. And use the example of just how you and your team have a workflow for documents. As far as maximizing your time on airplanes, would you be willing to share that, how that works?

[Unknown]

Yeah, I'll do anything to save three to five minutes in a day. Because if you find 10 of those, you've bought yourself almost an hour. And so everybody works differently, as do I. One of the things that we've instituted in our own shop, we've been doing this for quite some time. Is anybody on my team that wants me to approve an idea or make a decision, they'll send to me a read ahead. And our read aheads are slide docs. It's really hard to convey everything that you want to say just in word. And PowerPoint tends to be a visual communications tool. So my team will make a dense document. It's skimmable, but it's a document and they send it to me and I read it ahead of time. Now, I used to print it out on paper, but I'm getting better at an iPad and a pen. And I literally will write all my feedback on the document. And then when we meet, we spend time only going over the questions I have or the clarifying things that I need so that I can make the decision. So what happens a lot of time in organizations is they will use a meeting time to basically have a presenter present a document. And that's ridiculous because I could read almost three times faster than you can present. What that does is it speeds up my ability to get straight to the questions I have so that I can approve a decision. And we spend the whole time in the meeting, when we're together, getting to a place of consensus instead of just me having to passively listen to somebody drone on and on about what they're trying to propose. I mean, I do all kinds of things to buy back time in a day, and that's one of them. And I have some crazy examples of things in the book. One of my girlfriends, she's on the board at Nordstrom and Verizon and Okta, and she literally is African American gal, beautiful, stunning. And she literally cut off all her hair. Like shaved her, almost practically shaved her head because it saved her three hours in a week just not having to style her hair. Wow. And I think that people. Yeah, it's just. I mean, it is crazy. I hear about, you know, people who will sleep on airplanes just so they can get. Like, they have the way executives, they travel in private jets, because most of the time they have the jets set up internally for meeting spaces, and they are meeting. They have people travel with them so they can keep meeting and keep meeting, and then they land. I start. I even have someone drive me places now, just the Uber or a Lyft, but I have my favorite guy, Elmo. He takes me anywhere so I can sit in the back of the car and keep getting work done because I cannot drive and do my focused work. Really focused conversations, really focused review of documents, really focused and thoughtful replies to email. So I have a whole lot of it. Like, I even went to washing my hair only two to three times a week because. And I let it air dry. So I get up, wash my hair, I'll let it air dry for two hours while I do email, then I blow dry it quickly and then head into work. It's kind of crazy. It sounds weird, but it saves me about 20 minutes in just, you know, women have so much more time they're expected socially, culturally, to spend getting themselves presentable. So I just don't, I just don't want any less time than the dudes get, you know?

[Dave Stahoviak]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nancy Duarte]

Well, and you, and you mentioned in the book that, you know, you let your hair air dry and then you work on email while you're doing that. And I really appreciate you sharing this because I think there's the tendency to walk into a meeting, be briefing an executive, and they start interrupting, which we're going to get to, because they're going to do that. Right. And we don't see what's behind that. And I know there are people listening who are thinking like, wow, you know, Nancy's really busy. That's not me. That's not my organization. We're not quite at that level. But the invitation I'd make to folks is, that's your customers. There are customers that you're serving that are at that level of busyness as you are and more. And you cite a whole bunch of examples in the book of executives and some of the things they're doing. And so this all speaks to the importance of being concise and coming back to that 30 minutes we talked about earlier, if you have 30 minutes for coming in and briefing an executive, your invitation is prep 15 minutes and be really concise and clear so they have time to ask you the questions.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think it's so funny because I hear people complain all the time that an executive has interrupted them or I can't even get my whole comments out and they just start, take over the whole conversation. It's like, well, that's because it's for expedients, because I have a couple of my CEO friends, they have a day a month where the whole day all they do is approve things or people come through and present to the executive team and they're making decisions rapidly. And I think that when you're constantly being fed information and need to make decisions. You just. I think it must be tiresome. So the reason I interrupt is what'll happen is when someone proposes an idea, I see it. Like I was saying earlier, they see a lot. I see probably 80% of it. For some reason, I'm visual, like you mentioned in the intro. It's almost like I see it like a mosaic. Mosaic. It comes out of their mouth and it splatters on the wall. And I just see it. And what I do is maybe there's these two parts of it or three parts of it that aren't clear enough for me to make a decision. But I've seen most every. The picture. Telling someone the obvious, like, that's the color blue. Well, I already know that's the color blue. Like, don't tell me the obvious. Tell me the anomalies, or tell me the things I don't know, or tell me the parts that aren't clear to me. And you should be prepared. So you should be prepared for them to ask you anything. And I think that people. So you walked in the shoes of an executive. Like, do we get vacations? Do we get to be offline? Do everything that comes out of our mouths affects people's jobs and the stock price? Yeah, it does. So we have to be careful and concise and precise and get through a lot of decisions quickly. And so I interrupt, because that little bit of 20% that might make or break my decision, I don't see clearly. And I want to get straight to that as fast as possible so we can unpack the proper thing. And so I hope that refrains in people's minds, because it's agitating and not everybody. When you prepare for an exec, you're thinking linearly. You're constructing it structurally, you're making it clear, you're making it really concise. And it's a lot of work to prepare for that just to get interrupted. And I know that's frustrating. But all of that preparation, in a way, is like rehearsing. So you know your content now. So if they pelt you with questions, you have the answers because of how well you prepared. So it is just the nature of addressing that particular audience.

[Nancy Duarte]

You write in the book, the consequences of even one failed decision by an executive could bring unsurmountable internal and external chaos or even epic public humiliation for themselves and the company. Let them interrupt you, it says in bold print. And you mentioned one of the key strategies around this is, you know, if you've got 30 minutes, prep 15, be ready for the Questions be ready to be interrupted. What I'm curious too though is, is when you're working not only with your own team, but when you're teaching professionals how to handle this well, what can they do to be ready mentally for going into an executive briefing where they are going to get interrupted a lot.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's fair. You know, the mental preparation sometimes of preparing your content is one of the best things you can do, you know, so if you have an appendix, like you got to get your narrative out to your point. If you have 30 minutes, prepare about 12, get about five out, but prepare formally about anywhere from 12, 10 to 15 minutes total. That gives the flexibility to the time frame for the exec to take over and start to ask what they need. Now what's interesting about knowing walking into the room where you know you're going to get assaulted with questions, it's going to make your fight or flight instinct heightened. So the thing that makes us scared of public speaking is that our amygdala takes over and it thinks we're in a dangerous situation. And it tells you you should be really scared right now. And so one of the best things you could do is be confident to know your material. Behave as if you know the material, have all the answers. One of the things we coach people to do is if it's really high stakes and it's your first or second time in an exec meeting, have someone pelt you with questions. Have someone think of things that may not have even been on your purview. Have people just try to think of every single way they might interrupt you or every single way every single question they might anticipate that you have not anticipated. So the more prepared you are. I have to do breathing exercises like some people need to amp themselves up before something like that. I did a blog post not too long ago about what people do as their pre talk ritual. I noticed a lot of the men, a lot of the men like listen to hard rock and or even heavy metal and jump around and kind of move their head around a lot, whereas I have to calm myself down. So I do something completely opposite. I breathe. I'm already kind of wound up. I just kind of breathe. I do some yoga breathing and I just calm myself down and everyone does, everyone handles that situation. It was so bizarre to me how different everyone handled a situation where they were going to be very nervous in front of a crowd. So whatever, to your true self, have you walk in there controlled and confident and knowledgeable. That's what you need to do.

[Nancy Duarte]

You make the point in the book that the executives, by the nature of the fact that they're in the executive role, they're going to see things you don't see. So to be prepared to be surprised, as you mentioned, and so part of having someone toss you a bunch of questions even before you get into that just in advance, it's not necessarily to get every question answered or thought through in advance because you're never going to do that, but it's just to get comfortable. I think if I'm reading between lines here, it's to get comfortable with getting knocked off your feet and thinking in the moment and responding and being ready for that kind of an interaction. When you get in an executive level dialogue.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's not easy. And there's a lot of temperaments. There's only one temperament that actually really kind of enjoys that kind of sparring. And no, that's not what I meant to say, you know, and really taking it back on. And so the others have to really work hard at making sure it's very clear and making sure they don't get run right over and that they can actually come almost like a debate. We at my shop, we have really great luck with debate students because my team goes toe to toe with the top executives in the world. In the world. And so it does take a conviction around what you feel is the right perspective that we're wanting an executive to take on. And that's not easy. It's not easy. And it's the fact that if people that are listening to this have an opportunity to present to executives, that's a really big deal. That means they're doing well in their career.

[Nancy Duarte]

Indeed. And you mentioned a word a bit ago that I'd like to loop back to because I think there's a ton of wisdom there potentially. And the word was sponsor. What is a sponsor and how can a sponsor help you get ready for talking to an executive or group of executives?

[Unknown]

Yeah, so a sponsor is somebody who will teach you the ways of the mysteries of executives. And what they would do is maybe they are already on the executive team or they're a level down and present to the executive team often, but they would be the ones that prep you, that rehearse you, that help you. A lot of times they may be the ones that would, would be in receipt of the funding. So like, let's say you found a problem in the data and it's going to cost the company $10 million and your boss wants you to go in and be the One to stand at the executive team and present it. There's a lot at stake, a lot of times money or time or a new strategy or initiative when you're presenting at the exec table. So having somebody who is behind you on the idea and helps prepare you for how the politics work, where you should sit, how you should or should not, not behave, all those things are nuanced from culture to culture and from exact table to exact table. And you could really blow your whole career or make your whole career based on whether you have a sponsor or not.

[Nancy Duarte]

I had a mentor used to say, five minutes in front of the right audience can be worth more to your career than a year behind your desk. And I think about what you just said in using that few minutes of perspective from a sponsor can go a long way on not stepping in something you shouldn't or perhaps making the choice that's going to. That's going to really help leverage your brand in front of the organization, in addition to the reason that you're there presenting.

[Unknown]

Yeah, exactly. It is amazing how quickly a clear and bright communicator's career can travel in an organization.

[Nancy Duarte]

Yeah. And the sponsor might be, in fact, probably often is different even within the same organization. Depending on who you're talking to, which executives, you may have one sponsor for one particular action, another sponsor somewhere else. And if you're going to talk to a different organization, that sponsor is obviously going to change, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, you have to get a new one because that team is going to be very, very different. And I mean, there's some people who maybe could be natural at it, but yeah, it's like communication is like streams. Right. And you put your canoe in the stream and you can travel on it when you. When you travel well, but you've got to figure out the right streams and the right kind of boats to work. And so I think it's really important that you really are a student of the culture, even in any new setting. Like, even if you go and you're going to help on the board of a nonprofit, even that would be different how that team behaves even than the one at your company. So you just gotta have eyes wide open.

[Nancy Duarte]

And in the same vein of being a student, part of this is also being a student of potentially the specific executive that you're talking with and working with. And you alluded to this a bit ago just on how your team communicates with you. Nancy, one of the really helpful perspectives that's in the book for me was thinking about how executives prefer to communicate. And it's a two by two matrix. And on one side is the level of visual complexity that executives prefer and on the other side is the distinction between it being written versus being spoken. Could you tell me how that emerged and what we should be watching for as far as thinking about how we would learn how executives want to be communicated to?

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's super interesting. So some are heavily weighted visual. I am. That's why I really prefer one idea per page. In a slide doc, I can see the visual associated with the test. I'm very spatial with my text and pictures. Others aren't. Others you can just pop an email. Part of it is how far along you are. So I have an employee who used to work for an executive of a top public company and she would go in the data, have findings in the data, and she could actually write up a tight, short recommendation as a text while the CEO was on the corporate jet. She could text it and get approvals back because this person had gone through the cycle so many times of making the right kinds of recommendations. Now the relationship didn't start there. It didn't start, hey, text me while I'm on my jet. It started with, wow, this person. Person's thoughtful. Wow, this person tees up information the way I like it. Wow, this person's now my trusted advisor. And then they can text short 50 things to them while they're on their jet. Right? So you have to really understand, is this person a spoken word person or a visual person? Are they better when I hop in the car with them on their way to the airport? Like I've done that. I've had people when I went into a Geo, they're like, I'm like, oh my God. The only time I can Find is the 30 minute ride to SeaTac Airport. Like I'll hop in the Uber and I'll drive with you. And then we have a meeting and they hop out and catch an Uber back. So you have to understand like, are they spoken word, are they written word and what are they? And then you can communicate with them in the way that they know best. So the closer and closer you get to the executive and to the executive suite, each one of them is going to want to process information differently. I have one of my execs is almost all email all the time. Others are, you know, regular cadence one on ones. Others are like, oh no, just surprise me when you need something. And then the medium is really important. Whatever is their favorite medium to communicate with. You need to make sure you keep it really tight, really brief. A lot of people don't use hierarchy like bullets. Like anything they need to do to process it quickly, skimmably, and use the bold tool, use colors, use the highlighter function like whatever you need to do to make sure they see what was the most important part. And then they can read. If they want more information than just the title or subtitle, they'll read the supporting information on the ones that they choose to report. So your word choices in your titles and subtitles are very important to use really good word choices. So it's very, very clear.

[Nancy Duarte]

As you said earlier, your team goes toe to toe with many of the top executives in business. And I'm curious how you figure this out, you and your team. Like when you're working with a new organization, a new executive, how do you efficiently determine what that preference for communication is with that person?

[Unknown]

Yeah, we actually spend time with their execom and ask those questions. We're like, okay, how does he run meetings? Or she. How do they like to make decisions? How are they going to behave in the room when we show up? Do we press them for answers or just nod and listen and then we all convene out of the room? Outside of that, I mean, all those things are things that we profile we have to look at. Where are they? How agitating or enjoyable is the subject matter to them. There's just so much you can learn by just talking to the people who work for them. Because when we're brought in at the highest level, that's because this message is pretty critical and then the relationship forms. But yeah, we spend time really because we don't want to mess up. We don't want to mess up what we put in their mouths because we write and produce, you know, what they say and how it's visualized. But then we also, you know, want to keep the relationship ongoing so we want to show up as our finest selves in their presence.

[Nancy Duarte]

The message I'm hearing loud and clear from you is take the time to do this. So whether it's like you at the highest levels, going into a large organization and there may be many meetings of figuring this out, or as an individual going to talk to your boss at the executive level of taking some time at the very least to do some thinking for yourself of how does this person tend to like to receive information? What do I see them responding to? What kind of topics are comfortable for them, those kinds of things, even, even doing that for a few minutes can make a big difference on how you show up.

[Unknown]

Yep, it sure can.

[Nancy Duarte]

One of the other things I really appreciate is this beautiful graphic on how executives are measured that you have put in the book. And I think, wow, everyone should look at this graphic and be thinking about this when talking to executives. And the three areas that you identify that executives are being measured on is money, market, and exposure. Tell me a bit about those three and why those three are so critical.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Executives are charged with driving money up and driving it down. Drive the market up and the market down and exposure up or down. And I'll go through that. So with money, executives are supposed to be driving revenue and profit up and costs down. I mean, that's what you sit at the table and spend a lot of time talking about that. And then the market, you're supposed to be driving market share up and time to market down, like remove every obstacle that's blocking us from getting to market. Right. And then exposure, you're supposed to drive retention up. That's retention of clients, partners, employees. Supposed to be driving that up. And you're supposed to be driving risk down. Mitigate risk. You're supposed to be, you know, making sure you're legal, compliant, financial equality, just mitigate all the. Any risk around that. And so that, to me, is pretty finite. And, you know, we've been doing corporate goals for years. And when I was thinking about, how do you constrain this into buckets? And it was really easy to go back a few years at least, even with our own goals here at my own shop or a medium business, I have 120 people that work for us, about 40 contractors. And I can go back several years and categorize every single thing that's been an executive goal here into these categories. So it's not exhaustive research, but. But everyone, everyone that's seen it like you has been like, wow, it's not really been articulated like this before. So that's cool.

[Nancy Duarte]

Yeah. And the. I saw this and I thought, wow, whenever I'm going to brief an executive, the challenge I'd have to myself and to our clients would be be thinking about what you're saying in the context of are you addressing one or more of these? And if you're not to your point, this isn't exhaustive. There's probably exceptions, but if you're not, that's probably a bit of a warning sign to spend a little more time talking with the sponsor, making sure you're really in alignment. Because if it's not answering one of these questions, it's probably not something the Average executive is thinking much about or that concerned about.

[Unknown]

Well, that's what's so bizarre is once I kind of figured out these, this framework for what execs care about, then there's another section in the book that helps you write words in a way that'll resonate. So if you're going to approach the exec team and you're going to propose a recommendation, if you review this model in the book, if you can tie your initiative to one of these things they're measured on and you use the language, they'll be like, oh my God, I need to care about this. Oh, my gosh, you know, they'll see it right away. And there's certain verbs, because the action you're asking people to take is also very important. There's a way to shape your recommendation with what we call performance verbs. Those would be KPIs or OKRs and stuff like that. Those are performance verbs. And then there's process verbs, which are the actions you do to improve the performance. So it was super interesting. I don't think I've shared it, but I did an anthropological dig through slides that. We have thousands of slides that we had that had data on them from the highest performing brands in the the world. And it was just so fun to dig through. And that's where I found these verbs. I pulled off all the parts of speech and I looked at the type of chart they used. And when I pulled off the parts of speech, specifically collected the verbs, that was the most interesting part. Because a verb is when you're asking someone to take action. And then I could quickly. Originally I had four categories of verbs. And then one of my content people on my team, they're like, you know what? I think it's two. It's just binary. So there's just two types of performance verb and a process verb. But they were pulled off of the slides of the highest performing brands in the world. So there's a great spread that would show you also verbs to use that would appeal to an executive that can fit into these same money market and exposure categories. So it's kind of fun. I love this stuff.

[Nancy Duarte]

Yeah, well. And you're doing the work you should be doing, right, because of your passion for it, but also because of the research your team has done around this. And the theme that just so much is coming up for me thinking about our conversation is it's all about the audience. Right? It's not about us. You know, so often when we think about presentations and preparing a presentation, we're thinking about, you know, our nervousness and we're thinking about us first and we're not leading with the intention of how do we really serve this audience. And this conversation is really a reminder for me, especially when we're talking to the executive, is if we are willing to follow some of these breadcrumbs and to be thinking about it from the perspective of the executive, that it's going to help us to do a better job of serving them well. And if we serve them well, then everybody wins, right? This is fabulous, Nancy. So I have two invitations for audience. One of them is to go get the book. And this is one of those books that I don't know if you can get it electronically, but anytime Bonnie and I purchase one of Nancy's books, we always get the hard copy because there's so much visual in these books that is going to be so helpful to you that I don't think reading on a Kindle is going to do you justice as much. So my invitation to you would be to get the book, utilize all the graphics that are here that will help you visually to capture what Nancy's told us about data and story and integrating them together. The other invitation Nancy, I didn't know this, but you have a workshop built around this. You come into organizations to offer it, but you also have a public workshop that folks from any organization can come and attend and learn how to do this, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah. So people fly in either to our shop here in Silicon Valley. We have them in New York, Chicago. We have them in all the major cities, the public ones. And then I have a team of 19 facilitators who travel into companies and organizations or even business unit heads like sales or the data analytics folks are just beating up this book data story. So yeah, we come in either to the team level or the L and D level and teach it company wide.

[Nancy Duarte]

Fabulous. Well, we're going to put links to all of the resources Nancy has for the book, the book itself, of course, in the episode notes, in addition, in this week's weekly Leadership guide, so be watching for that. Nancy, one final question for you. As you have been on this journey of writing the books and leading your organization over the last few years, I'm curious what you've changed your mind on. Last time you were on, we talked about how you had learned empathy more effectively over time. As you've put this book together in the last couple years, what's changed in your thinking?

[Unknown]

You know, what's interesting is we've been on a journey the last 18 months or so. So I've had a president in the past and then stepped in recently as the operational leader at the organization about 19 months ago, 20 months ago. And we've put in a high performing culture, just really high performing. We have really great development, systems management systems, got rid of the underperformers and stuff like that. And I think the thing I've learned the most is that the people that get you and your organization to one point aren't always the people that are the ones to take you into the next phase. I think I didn't deal with a lot of the people who'd stalled in the organization because they were so beloved, so well loved by me, so well loved by the organization. And that was hard. And we're done, close to done. And it's so different. Like the whole company is vibrant and it's just so different now. And that was hard. This last season has been one of the hardest, but also one of my most defining moments as a leader. And yeah, I would say that that's definitely one of them.

[Nancy Duarte]

Dave, what, what prompted you to realize that you did need to do something different there?

[Unknown]

You know what one of them is? My VP of HR made me brave and made me see my own organization at scale and how it wouldn't be able to work. It took bravery, I think, to do that and believing that it needed to be done. But also I started to realize that a couple people were like Kryptonite. There was a person on my exec team that was Kryptonite. And we would just spend every exec meeting tangling over where we were actually kind of misaligned around values, all the way to our values. And instead of dealing with it, I kept thinking, oh, I'll produce data that'll convince her. Oh, she'll produce data to try to convince me. Or we would just talk and contend and contend and draw pictures on the whiteboard and kept trying to align and trying to align and no, I see it like this. Okay, well, I see it like this. Oh, I prioritize like this. Oh, I prioritize it like that. Like just, just the amount of tangling that happened in front of all the other execs in a really unproductive way. And I think I just was so caught up in trying to align for like 18 months, almost two years trying to align with this other exec. It just stalled our go forwardness, you know? And so I, I just feel like there were a couple people that were Kryptonite and we dealt with those first. And once they were gone, I could see, I think a thing that execs do is they can see the future. They can see based on history or based on the markets. We can kind of see a direction for ourselves. So the first thing that happened when I got rid of these two bits of Kryptonite is I could see. I could see again. And I hadn't seen the future for a long time. And so then that motivated me to keep going. To keep going. And it sounds bad or maybe cold, but we're such a different organization today in such a beautiful and winsome way. So I'm excited.

[Nancy Duarte]

Nancy Duarte is the author of Data, Explain Data and Inspire Action Through Story. Nancy, always a pleasure.

[Unknown]

Thank you for having me.

[Dave Stahoviak]

If this conversation was helpful to you, two invitations for you today. The first one, if you haven't already, is to set up your free membership at Coaching for Leadership. It's going to give you access to the entire library of episodes I've aired since 2011, searchable by topics you can find what's most relevant to you right now, whether that is team leadership, managing up, negotiating your next step in your career. All of that is at coaching4leaders.com under the free membership. Get inside there. It will give you access to that plus more of the free benefits in Inside. The second invitation I have for you is if you happen to be at an inflection point right now, maybe you are handling a big new initiative for your organization or you are putting together a team for the first time, or maybe you're inheriting a team from somebody else. Or perhaps you've just gotten a promotion. If you have, congratulations, or maybe you've moved into a new organization. Oftentimes when we get to these inflection points in our careers, we discover, as I have many times, what worked yesterday doesn't work today. And that's why at those inflection points, I bring together leaders inside of our Coaching for Leaders Academy. It is a opportunity to work personally with me, several other leaders in a group coaching environment to support each other. You know, often when we get together with other leaders inside of our organization or just inside of an industry group, we end up talking shop a lot. But we don't end up talking about the critical leadership skills that transcend industries and the critical people skills that are so important for all of us regardless of discipline or industry or organization. And that is why it's one of the many reasons I bring together leaders from across disciplines, from across industries for profit, nonprofit government, to really be able to help us focus on specifically on the human skills that will help us to lead better and to provide the support in a safe and confidential environment to do that. If that may be helpful to you right now. Our next applications for the Coaching for Leaders Academy will be opening in early September. And if you'd like to get a invitation to apply once our applications are available, go over to Coaching for Leaders. On that page you'll see a bit of details about the Academy. You'll also see the opportunity to request an invitation. Just hit that button, enter your information, and I'll make sure that you get an invitation when we open up our applications next in early September. Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest. Thanks as always for listening. I'll be back on July 21st with the next new episode and I hope.

[Nancy Duarte]

You have a great week. Take care.