Podcast Summary: Coaching for Leaders, Episode 585R

How Top Leaders Influence Great Teamwork, with Scott Keller

Host: Dave Stachowiak
Guest: Scott Keller (Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company)
Date: December 29, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores how exceptional leaders foster extraordinary teamwork within their organizations. Drawing on research from his book CEO Excellence: The Six Mindsets That Distinguish the Best Leaders from the Rest, Scott Keller shares insights from interviews with top global CEOs. The conversation focuses on shifting from a surface-level view of teamwork to understanding and intentionally shaping the deeper team dynamics that drive sustained success. While the episode is a rebroadcast, its lessons on team psychology, leader mindsets, and orchestration of teams remain highly relevant.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Hidden Life of Teams: Beyond the Surface

• Analogy of the Forest: Like trees in a forest, teams have both visible (mechanics) and hidden (dynamics) aspects.
  • Visible/Mechanics: Structures, meetings, processes.
  • Hidden/Dynamics: Relationships, trust, psychological safety, and unspoken norms.
• Quote:
  • "The best leaders think less about the mechanics of the team and more about the dynamics...the hidden stuff, the things you can’t see, the way people are relating." — Scott Keller [06:35]

2. Shaping Team Psychology Over Tactics

• Leadership Example: The 1992 US Olympic "Dream Team" lost a scrimmage on purpose to instill hunger and humility—an intentional act by coach Chuck Daly to shape team mentality.
• Core Message: Great leaders deliberately design team psychology, often prioritizing long-term cultural wins over short-term results.
• Quote:
  • "What a gift it would be...because this team will go from complacency and arrogance to hunger and determination and never again." — Scott Keller [05:35]

3. Aptitude and Attitude: The Twin Pillars of Team Selection

• Aptitude: Top leaders seek those who can balance short- and long-term thinking, revealing their ability to manage paradoxes—balancing results and investment, speed and caution, past and future.
  • Quote:
    • "If you can balance your near-term delivery of results with being able to invest in the long-term, you probably have the skill to manage the paradoxes of leadership." — Scott Keller [09:47]
• Attitude: The ideal team member consistently puts the organization above personal or departmental interests ("company-first" mindset).
  • Manifestations: Taglines like “One Lockheed Martin,” “One Sony”; metaphors, e.g., “the fist” to symbolize unity.
  • Memorable Metaphor:
    • "The fist means nothing gets between the lines and the fingers—not the unions, not the board, not anyone. We are one team solidified." — Lilach Asher-Topilsky (via Scott Keller) [12:41]
  • Caveat: “One team” isn’t about avoiding conflict, but about having the courage to stand alone for what’s right for the company and client.

4. Moving from Siloed to “First Team” Thinking

• Shift Needed: Leaders often focus too much on their departments; excellence comes when leaders see the executive team as their “first team.”
• Process:
  • Leaders apply a structured approach to shift mindset, summarized in four main levers (see below).
  • Quote:
    • "Many of the top leaders...really created a culture where it's team first." — Dave Stachowiak [13:58]

5. The "Four Levers" of Leadership Influence

Scott outlines the four consistent levers used by the best CEOs to change team behaviors:

1. Role Modeling: Demonstrating expected behaviors (including CEO, board, influential leaders doing so).
2. Storytelling: Crafting and sharing powerful narratives that make the case for change (“Cartwheels for Cancer” analogy).
3. Enabling Mechanisms: Providing resources, rewards, or reducing barriers (e.g., tools, incentives).
4. Building Skills & Confidence: Training and support for new behaviors.
   • Quote:
     • "There's a pretty short list of things you can do as a leader to influence behavior change—role modeling, storytelling, enabling mechanisms, and building skills and confidence." — Scott Keller [17:37]
   • Application: Top leaders systematically apply these to ensure everyone is set up for “one team” behavior and give a time-bound opportunity for adjustment (often ~6 months).

6. Balancing Fairness and Speed When Managing People

• Public Perception: Externally, leader transitions often seem swift (“cleaning house”), but exceptional leaders are careful and measured, ensuring fairness first.
• Process: Provide clear expectations, support, and consequences; only make changes if people cannot (or will not) adapt.
• Quote:
  • "It's not just about moving fast—it's being fair and moving fast." — Dave Stachowiak [20:42]
• Social Science Insight (“Ultimatum Games”): Unfairness in how people are exited from teams can cause others to disengage or resist, even at personal cost.
  • Quote:
    • "People will self-sabotage...to make the point that that was unfair. And this is the thing that can happen with new CEOs where they just clean house..." — Scott Keller [25:00]
  • Advice: Exit people with grace; the whole organization is watching.

7. Stay Connected While Keeping Distance

• Staying Connected:
  • Top CEOs conduct “skip level” meetings for greater organizational awareness and faster communication.
  • Examples: Meeting all 220 top leaders at least annually (Richard Davis, US Bank); broadcasting staff meetings to hundreds (Brad Smith, Intuit).
• Keeping Distance:
  • CEOs remain friendly but avoid deep friendships with team to preserve objectivity and make tough decisions when needed.
  • Quote:
    • "I'm friendly, but I don't really want to make friends with my team members, because I have to be able to make unbiased decisions." — Caspar Rorsted, via Scott Keller [28:31]
  • Language Matters: Avoid calling the company a “family” to prevent misaligned expectations about the nature of organizational decisions.

8. Focusing on Highest-Value Roles

• Time Allocation:
  • CEOs analyze where value is created and invest disproportionate time supporting those roles, which are often below their direct report level.
  • Example: Top 50 value-creating/protecting roles may primarily be one or two levels below the CEO. [31:48]

9. Final Reflections & What Top CEOs Changed Their Minds About

• On Talent:
  • The mantra isn’t just “move fast on C players,” but “put energy into turning B players into A players”—giving people a real chance.
  • Quote:
    • "You're not really a great coach if you have to replace all the players." — Brad Smith (via Scott Keller) [22:31]
• Culture Change:
  • CEOs who succeed distill their culture message to “one thing” and drive it relentlessly using the four levers.
  • Examples: “Growth mindset” (Satya Nadella, Microsoft); “Decency quotient” (Ajay Banga, MasterCard).
  • Memorable Moment:
    • "Don't talk about three things. Talk about one thing. Make it mean a lot; make it mean..." — Scott Keller [35:22]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The best leaders think less about the mechanics of the team and more about the dynamics...the hidden stuff, the things you can’t see, the way people are relating." — Scott Keller [06:35]
• "Aptitude kept showing up as a window into whether a leader can manage paradox." — Scott Keller [09:47]
• "The fist means nothing gets between the lines and the fingers—not the unions, not the board, not anyone. We are one team solidified." — Lilach Asher-Topilsky (via Scott Keller) [12:41]
• "Being one team is not code for everyone gets along. Being one team means people have the guts and the courage to stand alone if they don't think what we're doing is right for the client and the company." — Jamie Dimon (via Scott Keller) [13:05]
• "There's a pretty short list of things you can do to influence behavior change: role modeling, storytelling, enabling mechanisms, and building skills and confidence." — Scott Keller [17:37]
• "You’re not really a great coach if you have to replace all the players." — Brad Smith (via Scott Keller) [22:31]
• "People will self-sabotage...to make the point that that was unfair. And this is the thing that can happen with new CEOs where they just clean house..." — Scott Keller [25:00]
• "I'm friendly, but I don't really want to make friends with my team members, because I have to be able to make unbiased decisions." — Caspar Rorsted, via Scott Keller [28:31]
• "Don't talk about three things. Talk about one thing. Make it mean a lot; make it mean..." — Scott Keller [35:22]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:33] – Forest/trees analogy for teamwork dynamics
• [05:03] – Dream Team example and shaping psychology
• [08:12] – On staffing for aptitude and attitude; company-first mindset
• [13:58] – The "first team" paradigm and culture building
• [15:03] – The "cartwheel" illustration of changing behavior: the Four Levers model
• [20:42] – Balancing fairness and speed when managing people transitions
• [24:34] – Ultimatum games and importance of fairness
• [28:00] – Staying connected via skip-level meetings; staying objective as a leader
• [31:48] – Focusing on high-value roles below the executive team
• [33:23] – On what top CEOs have changed their minds about: focusing on B players, culture simplicity

Takeaways for Leaders

• Focus less on team mechanics (meetings, structures) and more on healthy team dynamics—relationships, trust, and clarity about shared priorities.
• Select and develop leaders for their ability to balance paradox (short/long-term, confidence/humility, speed/caution).
• Build a culture that puts the organization first, using clear symbols and repeated storytelling.
• Use deliberate, structured approaches (role modeling, storytelling, enabling mechanisms, skill building) to drive change.
• Be both fair and swift in people decisions; exits must be handled with grace to maintain trust and performance.
• As CEO/leader, remain connected at all levels—but keep enough professional distance to make tough calls.
• Invest your time where it creates the most value—often not just with your direct reports.
• Simplicity is powerful: Distill your culture message into “one thing” and drive it relentlessly.

Recommended Next Step

To dive deeper, read Scott Keller’s book CEO Excellence and consider reviewing the full podcast transcript to identify tailored strategies for your own leadership teams. Visit CoachingforLeaders.com for additional resources.