Coaching for Leaders Episode 713: How to Grow From Feedback with Jennifer Garvey Berger
Release Date: December 16, 2024
Introduction
In Episode 713 of Coaching for Leaders, host Dave Stachowiak engages in a profound conversation with Jennifer Garvey Berger, co-founder and CEO of Cultivating Leadership. The episode delves into the transformative power of feedback in leadership, challenging traditional one-way feedback models and promoting a bidirectional, growth-oriented approach. Jennifer, a seasoned leader and bestselling author, shares her insights on fostering environments where feedback serves as a catalyst for mutual learning and development.
1. Rethinking Feedback: From One-Way to Two-Way Learning
Dave opens the discussion by highlighting the common perception of feedback as a unidirectional process—where leaders impart knowledge to subordinates. He cites Jennifer’s critique from her latest book, stating:
“As long as we hold this image of feedback being something that one person... gives to another person, we’ve missed the ultimate point of the feedback system.” (02:45)
Jennifer elaborates on this perspective, emphasizing that feedback should be a reciprocal process:
“Feedback is supposed to be the way systems learn... When we make it a one-way game, we’ve kind of messed up the whole system.” (02:55)
She argues that feedback should be viewed as a mindset and a continuous process rather than isolated events. This shift allows both parties to engage in meaningful dialogue that fosters growth and understanding.
2. Separating Data from Interpretation
One of the foundational steps Jennifer introduces is the separation of data from interpretation. She explains:
“We build stories that get very far from data... What really happened, and then what’s the story I made up about what happened.” (05:21)
Dave acknowledges the simplicity yet challenge of this concept:
“It sounds really simple and intellectually makes a ton of sense... yet I back to all the times that I have failed at being able to pull those two things apart.” (05:46)
Jennifer advises leaders to consistently ask themselves:
“What story am I making up here? And what was the event that happened? Can I separate out the event from the story I’m making up?” (06:50)
This practice helps in recognizing the difference between objective facts and subjective interpretations, paving the way for more constructive feedback exchanges.
3. Embracing Curiosity in Feedback Reactions
The conversation shifts to understanding the emotional responses elicited by feedback. Jennifer points out the hidden learning within our reactions:
“There’s so much gold in our reactivity that we try to numb or tamp down... there’s something in me that’s happening that I could learn from.” (09:55)
She encourages leaders to explore the root causes of their emotions, fostering self-awareness and personal growth. By examining what triggers strong reactions, leaders can uncover deeper insights about themselves, enhancing their leadership effectiveness.
4. Transforming Feedback Conversations: Description vs. Judgment
Jennifer introduces the critical distinction between descriptive and judgmental feedback. She states:
“To make it so that you’re not defensive... is to not give them anything to defend themselves against. And what do we defend ourselves against? We defend ourselves against judgment.” (15:10)
Instead of labeling behaviors with judgments, Jennifer advocates for describing specific events and seeking mutual understanding:
“I noticed this thing that happened between us, and I’d like to understand what my part was, what your part is...” (15:10)
This approach minimizes defensiveness and opens the door for collaborative problem-solving, fostering a more open and trusting relationship between parties.
Dave inquires about practical application:
“As someone who wants to do a better job at having a conversation like that... what does it sound like, especially at the start of a conversation like that?” (17:03)
Jennifer responds by outlining strategies to create a safe space for dialogue:
“I often start a conversation like this with something like... I just love to clear that with you, and I’d like to hear your perspective...” (17:03)
By setting the tone for mutual respect and curiosity, leaders can facilitate more effective and meaningful feedback conversations.
5. Building Solutions Together: Collaborative Problem-Solving
Moving beyond feedback, Jennifer emphasizes the importance of joint solution-building:
“If we have a conversation about it and I understand those things, then we have to say, okay, what are we going to do about that? What’s our next step? And we make that together.” (26:06)
She contrasts this with the traditional approach where solutions are imposed, highlighting the benefits of collaboratively developing strategies that consider both parties' perspectives and contexts.
6. Evolution of Jennifer’s Perspectives on Feedback
In reflecting on her work and the updated second edition of her book, Jennifer shares how her views on feedback have deepened:
“I used to think if you got really good at it, it wouldn’t be hard. I don’t believe that anymore. I believe it’s always hard.” (28:39)
Despite becoming more adept at giving and receiving feedback, Jennifer acknowledges its inherent challenges but underscores its immense potential for personal and organizational growth.
Conclusion
Episode 713 underscores the transformative potential of reimagining feedback as a bidirectional, learning-centric process. Jennifer Garvey Berger provides actionable insights and strategies to foster environments where feedback leads to mutual growth and stronger relationships. By separating data from interpretation, embracing curiosity, focusing on descriptive over judgmental feedback, and collaboratively building solutions, leaders can harness feedback as a powerful tool for development.
Notable Quotes:
- “Feedback is supposed to be the way systems learn...” — Jennifer Garvey Berger (02:55)
- “What story am I making up here? And what was the event that happened?” — Jennifer Garvey Berger (06:50)
- “We defend ourselves against judgment.” — Jennifer Garvey Berger (15:10)
- “There’s no statute of limitations on our learning.” — Jennifer Garvey Berger (09:34)
- “I believe it’s always hard. I don’t expect it to not be hard anymore.” — Jennifer Garvey Berger (28:39)
Further Learning:
Dave recommends several related episodes for deeper exploration:
- Episode 273: Essentials of Adult Development with Mindy Dana – Explores stages of adult development and their impact on leadership.
- Episode 583: How to Give Feedback with Russ Laraway – Delves into the mechanics and timing of effective feedback.
- Episode 613: How to Lead Better Through Complexity – Discusses distinguishing between complicated and complex challenges in leadership.
Listeners are encouraged to visit coaching4leaders.com for additional resources, show notes, and to join the free membership for access to a comprehensive leadership and management library.
Produced by Innovate Learning and edited by Andrew Kroger with production support from Sierra Priest.