Dave Stahoviak (5:12)

You write, we don't only follow advice when it is good. We often follow it when it is bad, even when we know it is obviously bad, to avoid appearing unhelpful to the other person. And there's a term in the book you talk about a bunch insinuation, anxiety and how powerful it is. Could you tell me about that term?

Sunita Sa (5:34)

Yes. So this is a term that I discovered during my research, but the feeling I've had for many Many years and I certainly had it on that day when I had the CT scan. So insinuation anxiety is a distinct type of anxiety that arises when people worry that their non compliance with another person's wishes may be interpreted as a signal of distrust. And it insinuates that the person is not whom they appear to be or should be. And this increases the pressure to comply. So it's quite an aversive emotional state because we become concerned with offending the other person. Like we don't want to insinuate that our advisors or even our co workers or friends are not trustworthy or they could be wrong, incompetent or biased. And this concern of offending the other person, these relationship concerns I've discovered occur even in one off situations, even with strangers. And it's such a powerful force that leads us to comply that we want to be aware of when we are having that feeling and think how we could manage it.

Dave Stahoviak (6:44)

And it's so interesting how defiance, like we all want to think of ourselves, I know I certainly do, as someone who will speak up at the right time. Yes, compliance when it's normal everyday activities, following the speed limit, following the rule, all those kinds of things, but that at the right time that we would defy what doesn't match up with our values. And yet, as you point out, defiance tends to be the exception. Obedience is the rule. More often than not we are going to go along with whatever system authority has told us to do, aren't we?

Sunita Sa (7:20)

That's right. And really a lot of this comes from our socialization and me in particular. As a child I was known for being an obedient daughter student. And my name, I remember asking my dad when I was young what does my name Sunita mean? And he said in Sanskrit Sunita actually means good. And so I also felt this pressure to live up to that and be good. I did what I was told. I got up when I was told to. I even had my hair cut the way my parents insisted. And these were the messages I received from not just my parents, from teachers and the community is that to be good is to fit in, to obey, be polite, not make a fuss. And we often teach children these messages and we start equating compliance with being good and defiance with being bad. And it wasn't until later that I started to see some damage due to that, that in one survey they found that nine out of 10 healthcare workers, many of them nurses, did not feel comfortable speaking up when they see a colleague making an error. And it's similar to findings from another survey which found that more than 1700 crew members on commercial airlines only spoke up half the time when they saw their superior making an error. And so I started to wonder, is it sometimes bad to be good? And what do we sacrifice by trying to be so good, so compliant? Because even if it's not a life and death situation like the nurses or in commercial airlines, I often felt drained and muted by disregarding my values a lot of the time. And that inspired much of my work and my research.

Dave Stahoviak (9:05)

You've already changed my mind reading your book on how I think about Defiance. Because if you had asked me a week ago what it looks like, I think I would probably have said defiance is like at the right time, at the right moment. It's that moment where we decide to rise up. It's more of a snap judgment. And when you look at so many situations, both the everyday ones and also some of the amazing leaders that you talk about in the book Reaching a no, actually, much of the time isn't so much a snap judgment, it's a process, isn't it?

Sunita Sa (9:46)

It absolutely is. And this is one of the things I discovered in my research, is that we often think of Defiance as being a personality. And then we start to think that, oh, we have to have a strong personality or be larger than life or we have to be really brave. But it's not actually just for the brave or the extraordinary. It's available and necessary for all of us. Because in actual fact, defiance is a skill. It's a practice, not a personality. And it's a skill that we can all utilize if we wish to. We just have to learn the skill and how to apply it. And one of the figures in the book I discuss is Rosa Parks story that many people view her resistance to move on the bus as this bold, loud act. But in actual fact, it was built on daily practice, I believe. And it wasn't a spontaneous decision as many people like to think. I mean, the New York Times stated that referred to Rosa Parks as the accidental matriarch of the civil rights movement. And then an LA Times article referred to her as being tied all over after a long day of work. And they're both wrong. That story that she didn't move on the bus for a white man because she was tired. She actually said the only tired that she was was tired of giving in. She didn't become defiant overnight and decide not to move on the bus. A lot of things led up to it, which I found fascinating. So when she was younger she actually witnessed her mother refusing to move on the bus. When the driver told her mother that she couldn't sit next to a white man and he threatened to throw her mother off the bus. And she heard her mother say the words to the driver quite politely, you won't do that. And that was the end of it. And she also mentored a 15 year old girl called Claudette Colvin. And almost nine months before Rosa Parks own stand, Colvin was removed from a bus and arrested because she refused to move for a white woman on the bus. And although Parks wanted to use her as a case study, she was too small, too young. Sorry. But when Rosa Parks found herself in that situation, she decided to say no. It wasn't just a spontaneous decision. It wasn't just a matter of tired feet. She had been practicing for that day all her life. So I've always been inspired by Rosa Parks. Not because she made what people call a spontaneous decision, but because she prepared for that crucial moment and she was ready for it when it came.

Dave Stahoviak (12:35)

And when you get in her story, even as far as the bus driver that she ultimately said no to on that day, had had a previous interaction with them and had decided not to get on that bus, but ended up on that bus anyway and had decided like what she would do in future situations, it so much speaks to. This is a process, it's a skill. We get better at it, we learn it as she did so beautifully.

Sunita Sa (13:02)

Yeah, absolutely. So what we need is an action plan that starts long before the moment of crisis. We need to be developing our defiance skills so when the moment arises, we can put it into practice.

Dave Stahoviak (13:18)

One of the things that's really fascinating is when looking at so many of these situations that there are some common stages that emerge. There's five of them you've identified in, in your research. And as you point out, they, they, you do jump around sometimes. They don't necessarily always go in order, but they are very common. And when we look at many of these situations, we see the patterns of those stages. I'm wondering if you could share what those stages look like and what that looks like and feels like when we're in that moment of being confronted with something, we're trying to decide, okay, is this a time that I say no?

Sunita Sa (13:57)

Absolutely. So one of the first things that we feel when we're in a situation that is expecting something from us that we don't feel good about, doesn't feel right, is that we feel some tension. And that is stage one is the tension. And it can show up in different ways for different people. Like I have a particular way that I feel. Some people might feel it as a punch in the gut or a dry mouth, a constricted throat. There's many different ways that we can feel it. But you should know what that telltale sign is for you. Because the second step is not to disregard that, but acknowledge that tension. Because so often we think the tension isn't worth it. If we have doubts, is this right? We sweep them away, or we feel too anxious and we think somebody else must know what they're doing, and so we don't pay attention to it. And that's a shame because that tension is really powerful, powerful signal to telling you your body's warning sign in a way to tell you that this might be the time where you need to defy. So you need to acknowledge that to yourself that stage two, now stage three, is a really critical one. And that is simply telling someone else that you're not comfortable with this. So it's vocalizing it to somebody else. And doing that external vocalization is such a critical step because the research shows if you get to that stage, you're more likely to continue and get to the end, the fifth stage, which is the final act of defiance. So just telling someone else that you're not comfortable with this, you're still in a subservient position at that point. You're not threatening to defy, but you're just letting them know. And that means you can't go back and ever say, oh yeah, it was fine, I wanted to do it. You can't rationalize that to yourself later on because you've actually now explicitly, explicitly said this out loud, that you're not comfortable with this. And then stage four is continuing that and then saying that you cannot defy, you cannot comply. So it's that threat of non compliance. This is not what I want to do. And then stage five is the final act of defiance.

Dave Stahoviak (16:17)

How interesting. When I think back to your story about the CT scan, like those stages show up, right? Like the tension acknowledgment. And I think one of the really interesting things that you point out is that the escalation, the vocalizing it to someone else, it might be something as clear as I'm not comfortable with this, but it also could show up in a different way. And in fact, it did for you in that situation with the CT scan. You did vocalize. It wasn't that you weren't comfortable with it, but it was like asking about the radiation, right?

Sunita Sa (16:48)

That's right. It was asking questions. So stage three could be clarifying questions. You don't want to move ahead straight away, but so you ask a question, what does that mean? How much radiation is there? And yes, when I was in that situation, I definitely felt the tension. I acknowledged the tension to myself. And then I started to ask some questions, but I wasn't able to persist with that. And so I fell back down. I was somewhere between stages two and three. And then I went back and. And acquiesced to the scan. So understanding those stages really helped me later on when I encountered a similar situation, to be able to actually persevere and get to the final stage.

Dave Stahoviak (17:33)

Yeah, and that's like the beautiful hope in so much of this is as we learn about it and we can train ourselves to do better. I mean, one of the examples used in the book is aviation and the process of communication in the cockpit between pilots. And I think how interesting that, like, one of the things pilots are taught, especially the first officer, the person who doesn't have as much power, is to vocalize and to. There's a whole process that pilots are taught to do that. And how interesting that that, like, comes right into this if you are saying something that you're just more likely to go down the path of. Of ultimately defying something that doesn't match up with your values. And yet I'm also struck by the term conscious compliance that you use in the book and you write, I would argue that every act of defiance is preceded by dozens, hundreds, perhaps even thousands of moments of conscious compliance. Moments when defiance is not declined, but merely deferred. What's significant about conscious compliance?

Sunita Sa (18:43)

Well, often when I talk about defiance, so people have an understanding, first of all, that defiance, as I've said, is loud and angry. And even the definition in the Oxford English Dictionary, the definition of defiance is to challenge the power of someone else boldly and openly. Whereas my definition is that to defy is simply to act in accordance with. With your values when there's pressure to do otherwise. But there's times when we also need to assess what's happening in the environment. Is it safe and effective for me to defy? And conscious compliance is not the same as our default wiring, our socialization of just sliding into compliance without thinking about it. In these situations, we are aware. We have the knowledge, we have the understanding, we even have the freedom to say no. But it might be too costly for us in that moment to defy, so it might not be safe. There's certain moments where it Might not be safe for us to defy, both physically or psychologically. And in these moments, even if you think about Rosa Parks, how many times had she complied on the bus before at that special time where she decided to defy? We often consciously comply, whether it be because the costs are too great or the benefits are too meager. But in those situations, we're making a conscious decision to comply. We know it doesn't align with our values, but we're doing so at this moment, but not forever. Because even though there's cost for defiance, there's also costs for continually complying. And we often don't think about those costs and how severe they can be. If you're constantly bowing your head to someone else and disregarding your values, it can have a huge impact on us. So psychologically, spiritually, even physically, in terms of burnout and stress. So we want to think about those and use conscious compliance as a useful tool to make defiance more effective in the future.

Dave Stahoviak (20:50)

You said a moment ago that defiance is acting in accordance with your true values when there's pressure to do otherwise. And one of the tools to really surface what's important for you and your values is the defiance compass. And you outline three questions that are helpful for us to think through in that time of thinking about, okay, maybe I've been doing some of the conscious compliance. Maybe I've been in this situation before. What do those three questions look like, and what's the right way to use them?

Sunita Sa (21:29)

The defiance compass has really helped me navigate situations when I think about, should I comply or should I not? And that's because when we're in a situation, we often ask ourselves these questions implicitly when we're deciding what to do. And what I'm asking is that we make these questions really explicit. So if you're in a situation, you're thinking about defiance, you can step back and you can ask yourself, who am I? What is it that I really value? What are the things that I put a high priority on? And when I talk about values and I ask my executive students to think about their values, often they all come down to really simple ones like integrity, justice, equality, compassion. People have the same, even though they were brought to those values in different ways. But what my research has shown me, and again and again, what somebody believes their values to be is quite different from how they actually behave. And the defiance compass allows us to decrease that gap between our intentions and our behavior. And so the first question is, who I am? I? So connecting with those values that are really important to You. The next is, what type of situation is this? So that's looking outwards. Now we've done our internal work, we're looking outwards. What is this situation? Is it safe and is it effective for me to defy in that situation? We can decide, can we make this situation safer? Can we make it more effective? Once we've done that, we then think about what does a person like me, a person with these values, fairness, integrity, do in a situation like this? And that really comes back to our values. So it goes around in a circle to who am I? Because what does a person like me do in a situation like that is really calling on for our aspirational selves? How do we wish we would behave in a situation? A person that says that they have these values, how would they behave? What is it that we would like to see in ourselves and that defines compass, can help us meet our aspirational self and align our actions with our values.

Dave Stahoviak (23:48)

You did this for yourself in thinking about that experience with the CT scan in the emergency room, and you walked through these questions and considered them for what may happen in the future. And I think, like, it goes back to the point of that this is a process. This is something that, like, for most of us is. It's a timeline we're working across. It's not necessarily just a single moment. Right. What did that look like for you when you went back and examined that situation and thought about it through these three questions?

Sunita Sa (24:24)

When I thought about why I complied with a CT scan, so many things came to my mind and I very much regretted just saying yes, because first of all, it didn't meet my values. And when I think about medical ethics as well, I'm a supporter and advocate for patient autonomy. They should be able to make that decision and do no harm. So with those values in mind, I was wondering why I went along with that. Because if you look at the situation, it was safe and it would have been effective for me to say no. So the situation was safe. It was effective if I had declined the CT scan. And so the next time I was in that situation, and I. I recall it so well that this time I was going for some pain in my shoulder, I wanted physical therapy, and I'd entered this clinic and all of a sudden I was being taken to the X ray department. Now, I had already crossed my mind when I saw the X ray sign that, oh, I wonder if they're going to take me for an X ray before I've even seen the doctor. And that's exactly what they were doing. And so when they started walking me along, I said, but I haven't seen the doctor yet. And I became what I had dreaded, which was the difficult patient. They were like, are you refusing an X ray scan? And I was like, until I see the doctor, because I think I have inflammation, it's not going to show up on an X ray. And so I could connect in that situation with who I was, I knew it was safe and effective. And when I thought about, what does a person like me do in a situation like that? The answer had now become really simple, like, just simply to defy and say no. And even though it felt uncomfortable, and even though I met with many healthcare professionals after the X ray technician who all asked me the same question, no X ray. With some judgment, and even though the doctor berated me for not having the X ray, I was able to stand my ground and say no. And that was the right decision for me in that moment.

Dave Stahoviak (26:28)

And then, I should add, went on to write about it, and it was picked up in a journal and influenced, like, the thinking of many physicians who you heard from, like, what a beautiful story of, like, process of defiance, aligned with your values. And then doing something that not only affected you and your life and made it better, but so many others too, like, how powerful it can be when you think about it as a process.

Sunita Sa (26:54)

I mean, there's definitely a ripple effect that comes from defiance, because even though Rosa Parks had a massive moment with her defiance that was so effective for many of those defiances, on a quieter scale, it's just between two people. And certainly I thought that was the case when I said no to the X ray. But I told my story to other people, and they encouraged me to write it up for a top medical journal, and I did, and they published it. And it was called Investigations before for examinations. And the editor also wrote a short note on it about testing before seeing the patient, and it did have an effect. So my inbox was filled with emails from physicians, some agreeing with me about the system being this way, but the system needed to change before they did. Others saying, oh, it's not that much of a problem. We need to make money through scans and tests. So it really did create a ripple effect. Maybe the physician who I saw didn't change his practice. Maybe he did, but if I could do that, maybe one other person might be able to do that, and that could make him think a little bit further about whether that's the right way to run a clinic. So that is something I call it this ripple effect or the Defiance domino effect, that even though it seems small to begin with, defiance can really have a great impact because it not only changes you and your life, but it has an impact on those around you, those who observe it, those who hear about it.

Dave Stahoviak (28:35)

And the power, especially of that third question, what does a person like me do in a situation such as this? And you cite Viktor Frankl's beautiful point in man's search for meaning, that between stimulus and response, we have a choice. And the key, it sounds like, is taking that pause, especially in that third question, like, to actually, like you said earlier, rather than just sort of implicitly thinking about it, like, explicitly asking ourselves that question, what does a person like me do in a situation such as this? Like, actually stopping and answering that question can make all the difference in this process.

Sunita Sa (29:14)

It's a powerful question, and I also call it the power of the pause. Because even though it seems so simple, taken a pause, it can be profoundly impactful. Just taking a few seconds to really think about what does a person like me do in a situation like this? Connecting with your values and thinking about how to react. So it's very conscious. So when we think about defiance, we often think about it with like, oh, it's got so much emotion, but really, sometimes it's led by emotion. Like, I'm sure Rosa Parks was led by emotion. But it's not an emotional response. It's a strategic decision as to when it's the best time to defy. And what it actually means for you that you're acting in alignment with your values.

Dave Stahoviak (30:06)

You've dedicated so much of your work to looking at defiance. And we're going to, of course, link up to your website, your newsletter. I mean, so many great resources on this. And we'll have that in the weekly leadership guide for everyone. And I've got one final question for you, Sunita, is you have dedicated your work to teaching people about this and the research and talking with so many people about compliance and defiance. I'm curious, what have you changed your mind on? What, if anything, have you changed your mind on? On this?

Sunita Sa (30:37)

I can tell you a big decision in my life where I took a turn which is to do with compliance and defiance. So when I was saying that, I was brought up with a masterclass in compliance, really? And my career now as a professor is actually my third career. And that's because my first career was in medicine. I became a physician, and I had the grades, and they were the expectations. In fact, I was explicitly told medicine is the best thing you can do. And so that's what I did. I went to medical school in the uk. It's a combined five year. At the time it was a combined five year undergraduate and graduate degree so you could be qualified as a doctor in your early twenties. But during that five year degree I took a year out to study psychology and I loved it and I never forgot those psychology days. And that's when I came across Milgram's studies, his obedience to authority studies where he had subjects come in and give what they thought were electric shocks to another person and harm another person. And that study on obedience stayed with me even when I returned to medicine as expected and ended up working as a doctor and later really drove me to study compliance and defiance and then do a PhD in Organizational Behavior and become a professor. So I could say it was all perfectly planned, but definitely was about defying those expectations.

Dave Stahoviak (32:10)

Sunita Sa is the author of the Power of no in a World that Demands yes. Sunita, thank you so much for your work.

Sunita Sa (32:17)

Thank you very much. It's been wonderful to be here.

Dave Stahoviak (32:26)

If this conversation was helpful to you, three related episodes I would recommend to you. One of them is episode 229, find courage to speak when it matters most. Al MacDonald was my guest on that episode. We talked about his involvement, his intimate involvement with the decision to launch Space Shuttle Challenger back in January 1986. He was one of the key people at the table the evening before and the one person who officially declined to sign for Challenger's launch. We know where the story ended, but the story leading up to that launch is so important to understand not only from ethics, but also defiance. He's a wonderful example of the things that Sunita is teaching in this book and what her research shows. I'm also thinking about him because his story is featured prominently in her book. Again, episode 229, an opportunity to hear from him in his own words. Also recommended episode 404, how to Build Psychological Safety. Amy Edmondson's work, so critical for all of us in leading teams where people feel comfortable speaking up and being able to share what needs to be said in order for a team to learn and to grow. Psychological Safety key for that. Amy Edmondson has been leading the conversation on that for years. Episode 404 A Critical Complement to this conversation. And then finally, I'd recommend episode 546, how to Speak Up. Constant Locke's book, a incredible resource, one I recommend often for those who are looking for the path to do a better job at speaking up. I think it's a wonderful compliment to this conversation and Sunita's book as well. If you're looking for even more of the how to to take that first step to speak up more effectively. Constants work episode 546 a great starting point. All of those episodes, of course, you can find in the coaching4leaders.com website if you haven't already. I'm inviting you today to set up your free membership@coaching4leaders.com it's going to give you access to the entire suite of benefits inside of the free membership, including the ability to search every episode that I've aired since 2011 by topic so you can find what's most relevant to you right now. Plus many of the other free benefits included. Also including the audio courses. Dozens of free audio courses inside of the free membership with lots of resources, my own personal library and a ton more. Go over to coaching4leaders.com to set up your free membership and if you've been using the free membership for a while now, I would invite you to take the next STEP and Discover Coaching for Leaders Plus. You can find out more by going over to Coaching4Leaders Plus. One of the key benefits of coaching Coaching for Leaders plus is getting my personal journal entry every single week in your inbox. It is a very quick read, 2 minutes, 3 minutes at most, and it is a reflection on something that I have learned recently from one of our members, from one of the experts who's been on the show from a past episode, and in an actionable and tangible way that'll help you to move forward and continuing to support your leadership development. It's one of the key benefits inside of Coaching for Leaders plus. If you'd like to find out more, just go over to coaching 4 leaders plus. Coaching for leaders is edited by Andrew Kroger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest. Next Monday I'm glad to welcome Adam Galinsky to the show. We are going to be talking about how to share an inspiring vision. Join me for that conversation with Adam and I'll see you back next Monday.