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Coaching for Leaders
723: Create Visibility for Your Work, with Melody Wilding
00:39:32
Melody Wilding: Managing Up Melody Wilding is an executive and leadership coach for smart, sensitive high-achievers who are tired of getting in their own way. She teaches human behavior at Hunter College and is a regular contributor to Harvard Busines...
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- [00:01]
Dave Stahoviak
Good work speaks for itself. It's a lie many of us have wished was true, but found that there's actually much more work involved in this episode. What really helps in creating more visibility, this is Coaching for Leaders, episode 723.
- [00:19]
Melody Wilding
Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human potential.
- [00:27]
Dave Stahoviak
Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I'm your host, Dave Stahoviak. Leaders aren't born, they're made. And this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. A topic that comes up all the time again and again with our members and listeners is how do I create more visibility for my work? I have lost count of how many times I've had that conversation over the years and helping folks with the tactics and next steps to do that. And that's why today I'm so glad for us to zero in on this topic to help all of us to do a better job at creating the visibility for our work in a way that, yes, helps us, also helps the people around us and supports our organizations too. I'm so pleased to welcome Melody Wilding. She is an executive and leadership coach for smart, sensitive high achievers who are tired of getting in their own way. She teaches human behavior at Hunter College and is a regular contributor to Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Business Insider, who named her one of the most innovative coaches. She is the author of Managing up how to get what yout need from the People in Charge. Melanie, so glad to have you.
- [01:41]
Melody Wilding
I am honored to be here. Thank you.
- [01:44]
Dave Stahoviak
Oh, the pleasure is mine. I. As I mentioned, this is a topic that comes up so much and I find that one of the things that is behind this and the struggle that so many of us have, and certainly I've had over the years too, is a belief. And the belief is that good work should speak for itself. And I find that that's a belief. It certainly held me back and I think it holds back a lot of other people too, doesn't it?
- [02:12]
Melody Wilding
I see this all the time and certainly I fell into this too in my own career. It's very tempting to want to believe the workplace is a meritocracy. And in an ideal world, talent and skill would equal recognition and reward. That would be great. It would be fair if you were automatically recognized for those efforts. But the fact is we're living in a time where attention is fractured, leaders are busier than ever before, and so much of people maybe not noticing your work comes down to that because people are juggling their own priorities, projects, pressures and your achievements can get lost in the shuffle. They may not literally be visible if you're remote or hybrid, no matter how impressive they are.
- [03:07]
Dave Stahoviak
Yeah, indeed. And it is one of the fears that comes up in a lot of conversations that I find myself in on this topic is that the fear of like, I don't want to self promote. I don't want to be that person that's always talking about themselves in the workplace. And you write about this and say, while many people know that advocating for themselves is important, few understand that the visibility conversation isn't about shameless self promotion, but rather about how you present what you're doing, how you frame the way you're growing from challenges and how you put your contributions in context of the goals and objectives of the organization. I was thinking about that, those few lines and wondering how you think about that distinction between the shameless self promotion that like none of us want to be and what we really should be doing.
- [04:03]
Melody Wilding
Yes, you know, hard work, just going back to that idea, it's, it's undoubtedly important. It is table stakes. Everyone is working hard now and that effort alone is not necessarily going to differentiate you. On top of that belief that hard work is not enough, we're usually also told team players don't take credit, which is why we think that we'll look selfish, we'll look arrogant, big headed if we do share our accomplishments. But you know, being an executive coach, I, I'm coaching leaders through these limiting beliefs for themselves. But I'm also on the other side of the table with the decision makers who are saying we need to know what people are doing, what they're accomplishing. Because I need to make a case to my leadership to get resources for the team to fund this project that they're working on to get more headcount or get someone a promotion so they can take on more responsibility. And so I really want to encourage everyone who's listening to not think of self promotion or visibility, rather that's probably a more comfortable word to call it. Instead of thinking as visibility as this extra or something you have to do on top of your work or when you're feeling particularly bold one day, you want to think of it more like an obligation. It is a task on your to do list because the people you work with are not mind readers. And we really do have a responsibility to keep the people above us, across from us, informed on what's happening within our sphere. It's not us just stroking our own ego and just puffing up our chests for the sake of it. It's about giving your superiors, the decision makers, the full picture, all of the data they need to make informed decisions about projects, budgets, the overall direction of the team.
- [05:57]
Dave Stahoviak
I'm thinking about what you just said and how in a way this is so ironic that the fear we have so often is that I'm going to be the self promoter, I'm going to sound like the shameless person. And because we have that fear, we end up thinking about this so much just from ourselves, what it means for me, what it means for my career, how I'm perceived by others in the organization. And we miss what you just said, which is actually most of us have roles where we have a responsibility to make our work visible. And it's not just us, it's the team, it's getting the resources for the folks we support for our stakeholders and like, how easy it is to get in this myopic view of like, it just is all about me, isn't it?
- [06:45]
Melody Wilding
Yeah. And it comes from a great place. Most of the people who say this are very humble and, and team oriented, which is wonderful. And to your point, sometimes we don't think about the other side of it. And for all of my people out there who imagine themselves and think of themselves as servant leaders, also think about the example that you want to set. Do you want your people to be proud of their accomplishments when you accomplish something, hard to speak about it and share about it. And so when you do that, you give other people permission to do the same. And so thinking about it more as is this the type of culture I want to create? Where again, we're not talking about just shameless self promotion where people are bragging and showboating. We're talking about fact based reporting about what has happened, focusing on relevance, of tying outcomes, wins, milestones you and your team are achieving to why does this matter? What does this facilitate, enable, create? What opportunities does it open up? So we're using more neutral, grounded language to describe what happened, but more importantly connecting it to why does this matter in the bigger picture if you don't do that? Unfortunately, people may make their own assumptions and they may not interpret that correctly. And so really being able to share your wins also allows you to shape the narrative.
- [08:20]
Dave Stahoviak
Yeah, indeed. Like a story's always going to be told. It's just the question of are you shaping the story or are you entirely leaving it to chance as to what other people will shape the story about you and your work? Which might go well, okay sometimes, but boy, I'd rather be Intentional about being in that conversation. Right. And one of the ways you invite us to be really intentional and you hit this theme throughout the book is something you call a one year vision. How does that play into this when thinking about visibility?
- [08:51]
Melody Wilding
Yeah, and as you mentioned, the name of the book is Managing Up. And I think when people hear the word managing up, they think I have to put all of my needs and wants aside. And that's the exact opposite of what I'm advocating for. The book actually starts with having you craft your one year vision. So if you think about one year from today, 365 days later, where do you want to be? What will be different for you in terms of the type of responsibilities you have, the type of people you're working with, the quality of your relationships? Really just take a minute to imagine that and put yourself there. Maybe it is a stronger relationship with your boss or you have more trust with certain stakeholders. Maybe you're doing more strategic work instead of execution. And your one year vision really comes back in this visibility conversation because it acts like a filter for what you want to bring visibility to. That's important because a big mistake people make around visibility is just letting it happen by happenstance or thinking that I have to bring recognition and shine a spotlight on every single thing that I'm doing and accomplishing. But your one Year vision allows you, and it forces you to be much more selective to pick out things that align with where you want to go in the year ahead. Not necessarily what you may be known for right now. A great example of that might be someone who is doing a lot of crisis management communication for their organization and they're in this reactive mode. If you bring recognition to that, if that's what you are telling stories or anecdotes around, then you may become known as the crisis management person and sort of pigeonhole yourself into that personal brand. And so we have to be mindful of are the stories we're telling, is what we are bringing people's attention to, aligned with where we actually want to go?
- [10:54]
Dave Stahoviak
You paint this really important distinction between listing what you've done, which I think is what a lot of people tend to do when they start this versus highlighting what you want to be known for. And I think that that comes back to so much of what you just said about the vision. Like this isn't just I get into a conversation and I talk about what I did yesterday or the day before. But I'm. I'm stepping back first, doing some thinking about what do I actually want to highlight. And the vision, the decision of like those two or three or four things informs then what you actually do highlight.
- [11:31]
Melody Wilding
Exactly. Yes, you nailed it. And it, it also can act as a criteria for what you do and do not say yes to. And so if, if you are someone who finds yourself saying yes to everything again, your one year vision can act as a barometer for that. Because if you are getting asked to lead client pitches and you keep saying yes, but what you really want to do is get into the product side, the more you keep agreeing to those types of presentations, the more you might be seen as the sales support type person. But once you start declining those opportunities, you free up time to work on more of the product work. So it also adds, acts as a razor for those types of decisions.
- [12:20]
Dave Stahoviak
It's such a helpful grounding point because I think so often we do just think about this in the moment or today's meeting and we're not really thinking about it from the bigger picture of our careers and what's important for us and our team. And then there's a bit of the how to on this. And you write, the visibility conversation goes beyond simply listing what you've done. You want to bring visibility to your promotable work, meaning work that's first, central to the strategic direction of your team or company. Second, puts you in contact with key stakeholders, including upper management or external clients. And third, has the potential to impact the company's bottom line. And so part of what I'm hearing there is, is you're thinking about, okay, what are these things in my vision of also then looking at it through this lens of like, all right, the team, the stakeholders, the bottom line, the numbers. Thinking about it through that lens and having that conversation, that's critical, isn't it?
- [13:18]
Melody Wilding
Oh yes. It's very easy to get caught up day to day just reacting to the work that is in front of you and to feel productive but not actually be doing work that is moving your career ahead. And going back to how we were redefining visibility, moving it, moving it away from that shameless self promotion that's at the core of that finding promotable work. Because the things you're bringing visibility to need to be more outcome oriented. They need to have a so what element? Why does this matter? So what that you created this new process or helped organize this conference? Why does that matter in the grand scheme of things? What's in it for other people when they know about your participation in this?
- [14:09]
Dave Stahoviak
Yeah, and this gets back to what we were mentioning earlier of like it's, it's so easy when we start thinking about this, just to think about it from only our own lens of like, all right, what's good for my career? What do I need to say? What do I need to highlight and to miss the real desire that so many stakeholders around us want, which is actually do. By and large, people do want to know what's going on. They want to know the work that's being done, how it's contributing to the bottom line or retention or stakeholders or donations or whatever the organization's measuring. And so often we don't address that, but by addressing that, boy, it just, it's then not about us, it, it's about how does this help out everyone. And by virtue of that we're helping ourselves too.
- [14:57]
Melody Wilding
Yes, that's such a great way to think about it. I never put that together. It actually takes the self centered feeling out of it for people because you're focused on contribution and value. And that is so powerful because so much of what I try to break down in this book is some of the hidden psychology behind managing up the invisible pressures, priorities, incentives that leaders have that we're not often privy to until we often experience the negative consequences of them. And one of those is that your leader needs information to report up their own chain of command. And so if you can be arming them with ready made stories, anecdotes, tidbits, metrics that they can surface to their own leadership and look good, that's going to influence their own own bonus structure or career trajectory. Again, you are showing and you will feel better about the impact that you're making. You're also be helping your manager and your team, your reputation at large.
- [16:06]
Dave Stahoviak
There's a wonderful invitation to start to keep a story bank that you make. What is a story bank and where do you start with it?
- [16:16]
Melody Wilding
Yes, so many people I talk to, as soon as we start talking about visibility, they get nervous, they clam up and they say, well that's great for some people, but you don't know me, I actually have not done anything very impressive. I just get my work done, I keep my head down and to that I try to gently call those people out. Because if you are listening to this show, you are accomplishing impressive things every day. The problem is that we just haven't trained ourselves to look at the impact of those things, to document the meaningful tasks, the wins that we are taking on. And so your story bank is a structured way to do that, to build that habit. It's a tool where you can collect those anecdotes, those tidbits that highlight your skills, your achievements, your values, your experience. And keeping this can be great for a few reasons. First of all, it reinforces a sense of competency for you. And when you feel like you are making progress, you are moving ahead, you are growing, that increases your confidence. So competence is directly related to confidence. And second, it makes it so that you're always ready with a great response. So you can take advantage of those one off moments where a client was asking me the other day, how do I not ramble when I'm with an executive and we're kind of talking in the hallway, how do I actually make the most of that situation? Yeah, well having these stories top of mind helps you do that. And then third, this is really handy. You will thank yourself tremendously when you have this come time for performance reviews or you're updating your LinkedIn. Because it's very easy for all of that to just go out of our heads with the day to day, all the busyness we experience.
- [18:11]
Dave Stahoviak
And this is where the vision becomes really key because you, you, you sort of caution us like don't start logging everything. As far as keeping this huge bank of stories, it's, there's some judgment and some nuance to this of like you want to have. Well actually I'm curious what you think, like how many of these like should we have in our brains? Because we don't always know when these conversations are going to happen or when the opportunities like what, when you see people do this, well, how do they frame it and how do they actually structure it?
- [18:39]
Melody Wilding
Yeah, let's talk about the story bank itself because this can feel very overwhelming and I want to encourage everybody to keep it very, very simple. You don't have to over engineer this. It does not have to be a complicated notion board with different tabs and filters. It can be a Google Doc, it can be a note you keep physically or on your computer. And my recommendation is every week, a Friday or a Monday, set aside about 15 minutes and think about what am I proud of that happened this week. And that feeling of pride is important because a situation may have happened where you didn't get the outcome that you want, but how you handled yourself and the skills you had to display, whether it was having a tough conversation, negotiating, strategic thinking or problem solving. Even if you didn't get the outcome you want, that is still a great story to be able to tell about how you navigated through it. And so I do have some clients where depending on their one year vision, they may be working towards a specific goal, they may be working towards wanting to have more interfacing with the board of directors, for example. And so their stories, they'll be looking for skills and experiences that would ladder up to what their manager or someone else would want to see about interfacing with the board, whether it's concise communication, preparing certain documents, building relationships, or bringing in new opportunities, governance, what have you. And so they may actually split their story bank into different headers where they're capturing those types of things. But most of all, again, a short amount of time each week. And this should be something you keep refreshed. So at any one time you maybe have five to seven, I would say no more than 10 different stories, or else you start to forget what they are, they start to feel unwieldy. And the truth is, usually one story can flex to cover different skills. And so think of it a little like a diamond. You may have one situation where if you emphasize a different facet of it, you could show technical acumen, you could show how you had to handle somebody you disagree with. You could show different aspects through the same story.
- [21:04]
Dave Stahoviak
There's such power in thinking about this in advance, because when I think about this, and by the way, one of the things I love in the book is all the questions you ask of us that help us to think of like, okay, what are the stories that I actually do bring into the story bank? And so there's, there's a ton of gold there on just getting you started. And as I look through those questions just for myself and thinking of our clients, there's answers to many of them. There's obvious answers to many of those, those questions just in the past quarter or six months. And it's just that when we're in the moment where all of a sudden we're like riding up the elevator with the CEO or we run into someone unexpectedly on the weekend somewhere, or we get pulled into a meeting unexpectedly, like we have that. I know I've had this sort of deer in the headlights moment where I'm like, okay, I don't know what to say. But if we've stopped and thought about it in advance and we've got a couple of stories that are like, okay, this quarter, these are my two or three or five or however many stories, then we're so much more likely to remember and recall it in the moment. And to your point, be more concise, not ramble, because we're trying to craft the story in the moment as we're thinking about the situation. Like, if we already know what the story is, it's so much likely we'll be more concise.
- [22:26]
Melody Wilding
It's so true. A little preparation goes such a long way to help you feel confident in that moment and sound more articulate. And what I love about what you're saying is capitalizing on those seemingly small moments that you may be overlooking right now. When someone asks, oh, what have you been up to? How are things going with you? Most of us just freeze or we ramble. We downplay our work. We say, oh, yeah, you know, I'm just busy working on some things. It's been a crazy start to the year, and that opportunity passes us by now more than ever. We have fewer and fewer of those opportunities for real facetime with people, Right? And so we don't have to put a lot of pressure on that moment. But just having that little bit of forethought allows you to be prepared to take advantage of that. And the way I suggest doing that, translating something from your story bank to an actual conversation, I like to call this having a pocket update, because it's just an update you sort of keep in your back pocket and pull out when you need it. And the formula here is one current project plus one specific detail plus one result. And this should be no more than 30 seconds to a minute. Instead of just saying, oh, yeah, you know, I'm working on some research tasks, you could say it has been a really interesting few weeks. I have actually been digging into how AI can help us with hiring, and it's showing some promise, really early for how we do our hiring that is so much more impactful, gives me so much more insight to someone's skills, what they care about, the level that they're operating with. And I think most of us just sort of brush off those moments when in actuality, every one of those is a chance to shape how people perceive us.
- [24:21]
Dave Stahoviak
And isn't it interesting, like, how often things come out of casual conversations? I have missed so many opportunities in my career, in life of like. And it's also interesting how often we miss invitations that people make. Like, we get into a conversation and someone will say, oh, you should. We should set up a time to talk about that. Or we should get together at some point, like someone who's often really important as a stakeholder or a colleague or a mentor. And it's interesting how often, sometimes we say so much of that in casual conversation that sometimes we miss the real genuine invitation that I think people make as a Follow up when we say that too.
- [25:04]
Melody Wilding
Yeah, yeah. You know, I tell the story of a client who had a run in with an executive and instead of just not utilizing it, was able to share their Pocket update. And the executive said, you know, we, we really need to talk further about this. I would actually love to hear more. It's easy in those moments to say, oh, they, they weren't serious, they were just being nice. Right. Your imposter syndrome comes in. But again, this goes back to the psychology of managing up, that the higher someone gets in the organization, the further removed they are from what's happening on the ground. And that's a fundamental shift in how we think about internal networking and relationship building, is that even if you are in a position of lower positional power, you still have insights, information to offer people that are further up the chain.
- [25:59]
Dave Stahoviak
Yeah. And to say yes to like, some of those invitations, because again, not just for us, but for the benefit of the organization too. And as you were saying that, I was thinking about, oh, gosh, it was probably about 10 years ago, I had a client. This was back when I worked at Dale Carnegie. I had a client that we served this large organization. And I ran into her in the parking lot one day or the lobby of the building, and she had just started a job as an executive assistant to the number two person in the company. This was like a Fortune 500 company. And she said to me, oh, I've got this new job. It's so good to see you. I hope you will come up and stop by sometimes and say, hello, Would you do that the next time you're in? And I said yes. Which is of course, the thing we all say. Right. And I remember walking to the parking lot because I was leaving and thinking, like, did she mean that? Like, should I actually go up there next time? And I had this thought. I was thinking about it. Yeah, that's probably something I should do. That would be like a good career move, right? Maybe. And I ended up the next time I was in the building, I called her up and I said, hey, remember, you had invited me by, I'm actually here. And I went up to her office and long story short, that conversation, a month later, I was briefing the executive team of this $10 billion company. And I wouldn't have if I hadn't said yes to that. And it was one of those, like, very well intended, very clear invitations. But I thought back to like all the times in my life and in my career that I just never said yes because I was like, oh, they didn't really mean it. They don't really care about it. They were just saying that to be nice. And maybe sometimes they were right. But I missed so many of those and boy, that one time I did say yes and it sure paid off. But it was a, it's been a reminder to me ever since of to say yes to those opportunities when they come.
- [27:54]
Melody Wilding
Fantastic story. And I hope that that gives anybody else who has been in that position just the little bit of courage. You know, you only need to be courageous 30 seconds at a time.
- [28:04]
Dave Stahoviak
Yeah.
- [28:05]
Melody Wilding
Because put yourself in the path of serendipity. That is what so much of internal networking and relationship building is, is about, is just getting more surface area exposure to those people so that they can genuinely get to know you. The more exposure they get into how you think, what you're working on, the more you're going to be top of mind when real tangible opportunities do come up.
- [28:30]
Dave Stahoviak
And how often we don't do that in our personal relationships too. I think of how often someone's like, oh, we should get together for coffee or lunch. And then we never actually follow up a lot of the times with those invitations. And not that we can say the yes to that all the time, but at the right time and the right place of saying a yes. And to come back to what you said earlier of like the one year vision, who's important, what's the kind of message that I want to convey if that's lining up in that situation, wow, what a great opportunity to say yes and just be really proactive about that yes.
- [29:00]
Melody Wilding
And you just made me think of something that I maybe do subconsciously. But now after this conversation I'm going to be more aware of it is I always try to play the role of being the person who moves the relationship ahead. To your point, if someone says, oh, we should get coffee or we should catch up, I then offer specific times. I don't say, oh yeah, that would be great because I know it's never going to happen. So I say, great, here's what I have available, what works for you. And so I try to turn it into a tangible, you know, yes or no and move it forward. And that is so true for managing up as well. One of the core concepts that will make you successful with this skill set is looking for ways you can save the people above you, across from you, that you can save them cognitive energy. And if they say, oh, would be wonderful to hear more about this, you be the one to take initiative to say great, I'll get with your assistant and find a time on your calendar. Or if they say, I love this initiative, I would be happy to support you with this. You're the one who says, wonderful, let me put together a one pager of FAQs that you can share in meetings or some text that you can copy and paste. So if you lower the cognitive load, someone is going to be so much more likely to follow through to support you because you've made it easier for them.
- [30:25]
Dave Stahoviak
Make it easy, make it tangible. Right. You know, and there's so many ways to do this. And for those of us who, who are more introverted, like me, who have missed so many of those opportunities, one of the other invitations I love that you talk about is just maybe even thinking about something that you do in writing and doing a weekly update or a newsletter update. And it's interesting how often we end up in conversations within our academy cohorts of trying to give more visibility to stakeholders and that this hasn't been done like no one's ever done any kind of okay, here's an update for my team this week or here's an update on Slack or, or whatever the medium is the organization is using and just doing a little bit of writing and being strategic about that. Also a really good medium for it, isn't it?
- [31:11]
Melody Wilding
Especially if you are an introvert and someone who may not be as comfortable thinking on your feet or spontaneously. Yes, being able to capture this in written form gives you time to think. It also in some ways can add more gravitas to the information depending on how you package it. You know, if it's in a beautiful deck or a one page PDF, it just, it feels more official in some ways than just a fleeting conversation. And to your point, if can look for ways that you can be the one to create visibility chances, whether that's like you said, something I recommend is can you send some sort of roundup maybe once a quarter, once a month that gives you an opportunity to share? Yes, this is what I have been working on. But the main thrust of it is here's the progress the team has made and so it's really a collective visibility effort rather than just shining the spotlight on yourself. But if you can be the one to chief that and really be the author and the one it's coming from, then it positions you as more of a leader.
- [32:22]
Dave Stahoviak
Melody, we didn't say this at the beginning, but you have been listening to the show for the last several years and I'm so grateful for you listening and now coming to contribute to the show. And so you know what my last question will be is, you know, I'm always asking people what they've changed their minds on. As you reflect on all the work you've done over the last few years, putting this book together, thinking about managing up and visibility in such an intentional way and teaching people how to do it, what, if anything, have you changed your mind on?
- [32:50]
Melody Wilding
What I would say is I started out writing this book thinking managing up equaled sucking up. And I have completely and totally changed my mind on that. Managing up is not something you do for your manager's benefit. It is something you do for yourself. It's something you do to make your own work life easier, to advocate for yourself, to get your voice heard. And that's been a big shift because I think a lot of people still think of managing up as brown nosing, ingratiating yourself. They think it's something you only need to do when you have a bad manager, a difficult manager, when in actuality this is proactive career development, professional hygiene. Think about it that way and I'll put a bow on all of this. That also to our conversation today, managing up is not only constrained to your direct boss. It is about thinking more broadly about the systems of influence in your organization. Because now more than ever, your projects, your potential in the organization is determined by a lot more people than just your direct manager. So you need to be thinking about your skip level, your boss's peers, that other powerful stakeholder, the client. All of those are people you need to manage up to.
- [34:16]
Dave Stahoviak
Melody Wilding is the author of Managing up How to get what you need from the people in charge. Melody, thank you so much for your time and for the book.
- [34:25]
Melody Wilding
Thank you.
- [34:32]
Dave Stahoviak
If this conversation was helpful to you, three related episodes I'd recommend. One of them is episode 480, get noticed without selling out. Laura Wong was my guest on that episode. Of course, none of us want to sell out and yet we do want to get noticed for our work. And one of the wonderful analogies she talks about in that conversation and in her book is thinking about holding a gemstone, a diamond or something else beautiful and the different facets of it that tend to show up. And oftentimes we look at a diamond or a gem and we only see one side of it. You can turn it though, and you see a different perspective. She invites us to think about that, in how we're sharing our own work and talking about the things that matter to our stakeholders, still being true to ourselves, but sometimes turning the diamond to show the facet that's going to be most helpful in that situation. Episode 480 for so much more on that. Also recommended episode 593 how to start Finding Useful Stories David Hutchins was my guest on that episode. David, our resident storytelling expert, has been on the podcast half a dozen times over the years, has taught me more about storytelling than probably anyone. We talked in this conversation about the importance of building a bit of a story bank and David has so many helpful resources on how to get started with that. And in that conversation in episode 593 we talked about that. How do you actually find stories? How do you start noticing them once you do? What do you do with them? How do you start getting a list of them or database together and taking that next step really practically episode 593 for that. And then finally I'd recommend the more recent episode with Roy Schwartz. Episode 687 Getting Better at Internal Communication Roy shared the lessons from their best selling book Smart Brevity and his work at Axios and how they are using newsletters and email in order to communicate both internally and externally and some of the helpful practices for doing that on internal communication. So many useful tactics from Roy. I've adopted some of them in the work that I do within our own community and our Coaching for Leaders Academy and Pro members in being able to message more effectively. Episode687 if that's on your radar screen right now, all of those episodes you can find on the coaching4leaders.com website. And if you have not yet set up your free membership, I'm inviting you to do so today so you can get access to the entire library of episodes since 2011. Just like all those related episodes plus many more are inside of the episode library. You can find what is most relevant to you right now simply by setting up the free membership, going over to the episode library and tracking down what's important to you. And in addition to that, several other benefits inside the free membership. One of them is my weekly guide later in the week. Every week I send out a guide with all the relevant links, the notes from each episode, plus a lot more the things I've been finding in the news media, other podcasts, YouTube, things that I think are helpful to you to know about in order to continue your leadership growth. All of that's part of the free membership. Just go over to coaching4leaders.com to set that up. And if you're looking for a bit more, you may want to check out Coaching for Leaders plus One of the things I'm doing every single month is inviting one of our recent guest experts into a conversation with our members in something we call the Expert Chat. Rather than me asking the questions though, it's our members asking questions of the experts directly. And just this past month we had one of our own Academy alums, Kasimi Jazz. On the Expert chat we had a conversation about what leaders need to know about cybersecurity. He works in that space extensively and began teaching us about what are the personal practices we need to know and also what are the things we need to be aware of. For our teams. Of course, a critical topic and one oftentimes leaders and organizations don't think about until there's been a lot of damage done. Conversation with Kasim on how we can get better personally and also for our teams. It is one of the many expert chats available from conversations from our members. We do it all on video. It's recorded. It's one of the benefits of your Coaching for Leaders plus membership, but not only all the archives, but a new one every single month coming to you. For details, go over to Coaching four Leaders plus Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest. Next Monday, I'm so pleased to welcome Donna Hicks to the show. We are going to be having a conversation about how to bring out the best in people and a key word and how to do that take. Join me for that conversation with Donna and I'll see you back on Monday.