Dave Stahoviak (7:07)

Wow. And like so many of us, you have been learning so much as you go, and Desmond Tutu was influential in your work, as I mentioned in the introduction. What did you learn from him?

Donna Hicks (7:20)

Oh, boy. I mean, just about everything, honestly. Well, he. The most. The first thing he taught me, Dave, was when he asked me, he said, okay, Donna, this is really interesting. When I first met him, he said, tell me how you arrived at this concept of dignity. And I said, oh, sure. I said, I was working all over the world on these international conflicts, and it was very common for the parties to say to me that the other side stripped them of their dignity and that they were fighting in order to regain that lost dignity. And Archbishop Tutu, mind you, this is like the first 20 minutes that I met this guy.

Dave Stahoviak (8:04)

Yeah.

Donna Hicks (8:04)

And he said, stripped of their dignity. And I said, yeah, that's what they said. And he said, don't ever say that again. I said, oh, what?

Dave Stahoviak (8:15)

Yeah.

Donna Hicks (8:15)

Why? What did I say? He said, nobody can strip us of our dignity. Our dignity is deep inside us. It's in our soul. Nobody can take it away from us. It can be injured. It can be trampled on. And you know better than anybody else, you've seen it in action all over the world. And so he said, but it can never be stripped. And he said, don't you ever perpetuate that myth anymore. And then he finally looked at me and he said, how do you think we got through apartheid in South Africa, we black South Africans, during that horrible, dehumanizing regime? How do you think we got through it? And he said to me, we got through it because we knew that we had our dignity and that we weren't going to give it up for anybody. So that, Dave, was like the first real whoa kind of moment for me with recognizing that. I guess I did, in the beginning think that we had. Somebody had the power to strip us of our dignity. I thought that. But never again. I have never, ever said that again after that encounter with. That first encounter with him. So. But, you know, he was such a. A man of honor and integrity, and. And I remember asking him another question. I said, look, you're considered the champion of reconciliation all over the world. You got a Nobel Prize for all your work that you've done. And I said, I've got to ask you, I've been working in these conflicts for, you know, going on two decades now. What. And my question to him was, what do you think it takes to put the past to rest when you've been in conflict with somebody? What do you think it takes? And he paused for a second, not very long, but he paused and he said, well, Donna, when people have been roughed up, they need acknowledgment for the suffering they've endured. Acknowledgment. And I thought, whoa, that's it again, you know, because think about it. When somebody mistreats you or violates your dignity and you get that horrible feeling, you just want somebody to come to you and say, look, Dave, that was awful what happened to you. That should have never happened. And when we can get that validation from. And it doesn't have to be the perpetrator. I mean, it can be. Any of us can help people who've been violated. What I call jumpstart the healing process. Because Tutu said there's no healing without acknowledgment of these dignity violations. And that's something all of us can benefit from. All of us, no matter where we are, whether we're in a leadership position or whether we're somebody's direct reports. This is the essence of acknowledging that something bad happened to somebody.

Dave Stahoviak (11:10)

You write, one of the major misconceptions about dignity is that we think we gain our sense of worth from external sources. And I think about that line and the lessons you learned from Desmond Tutu, and you crafted something you call Mandela Consciousness, in learning from that, what is that?

Donna Hicks (11:34)

Well, first of all, let me just say what my simple definition of dignity is, because I think we have to start with that. My definition is that we were all born worthy, we are all born as something of value, but we were also born being vulnerable to having that dignity assaulted and injured. Very simple definition, very simple. It's our inherent value and worth and also our inherent vulnerability. I mean, we're physically vulnerable to injuries, but our dignity is also vulnerable. And we have to take care of that just the way we would take care of our physical selves. So those Mandela consciousness, I mean, the first starting point of it is we have to develop a deep connection to our own dignity. In fact, Mandela consciousness is broadly defined as being connected to three things. Connection, connection and connection. First connection, you have to embrace and accept your own dignity. That starts there. Because so many people feel like their dignity comes from something that they've actually achieved. Like, oh, I've got a good job, I made X amount of money, and I've got a house here, a house there, whatever. Those external things are not true dignity. True dignity is embracing that inherent birthright that each and every one of us has. So the first connection in the Mandela consciousness is to our own. That's our first job. Second job is to connect it to the dignity of others, to recognize, well, if I have this inherent value and worth and I'm a human being and everybody else around me is a human being, then they deserve to be treated with dignity. And the final connection is to be connected to something greater than yourself and bigger than yourself. I don't necessarily want to say greater, but bigger than yourself. And, you know, Tutu informed me this. You know, he always says that we are born in the image and likeness of God. And, and I. And I think, wow, you know, that that's great for people who are members of faith communities, but I work with people who are not necessarily members of faith communities. And as much as I'm, you know, can embrace that whole notion of being part of the divine plan, I. I say to people, look, we have the desire. We humans often have a desire to do something big in our lives. We want to have a purpose that helps others. We want to be thought of as contributing to the greater good. My students, Dave, are all wanting this. This is a. A major aspiration for them that they want. They want a life of meaning and they want a life of purpose. So the third connection, first one to your own dignity, second one to the dignity of others, and the third one to Something bigger than yourself is making sure that you're making, they're contributing to the greater good somehow that you are doing work that enhances other people's lives, not just your own. So it's like a, it's like a defense against narcissism. Because you could say, oh well, if you think you're so great. But no, these three connections really are. I think if they're in alignment, if they're, if you have all three secure inside you, I believe it's a recipe for a fulfilled life. I really do. And I want to say one other thing pivotal for the work that I do in the corporate world, because one of the things that happened, Dave, when I discovered this insight about the role dignity plays in conflict and how we all want to be treated with dignity, I mean, I see it as our universal human yearning. We all want to be treated as if we matter. When we don't, we suffer terribly. And so for leaders to understand this profound aspect of what it means to be human, that we all want that feeling that people are valuing us and seeing our inherent worth, that's a fundamental and simple truth. It's a really simple truth. But also the other simple truth is that when we are treated like that, we flourish as human beings. So for leaders, this is a no brainer to try to deeply understand this.

Dave Stahoviak (15:56)

Oh yeah, yeah. You said something really big a moment ago that I'd love to come back to. I think about those three Cs that you highlight. Connected to our own dignity, connected to the dignity of others and the dignity of something bigger than ourselves. And I thought one of the really interesting things that you surface in the book is especially thinking about this from an organization standpoint, that how interesting it is that sometimes the organization is really good at that third one, right? The dignity of something bigger than ourselves and serving the world and serving customers, stakeholders, clients, donors, whoever that organization is serving. And yet sometimes missing one or both of the other two. You've seen that come up a bunch, haven't you?

Donna Hicks (16:44)

Oh, all the time. All the time. And in fact, the first order of business that I engage with when I'm asked to consult in an organization is making sure that people have the consciousness of their own dignity and that they have accepted it. Because so often, I think I mentioned this earlier, so often people think that their dignity comes from something that they have to do. They have to outperform somebody, they have to get to the top of the hierarchy and they have to gain so much power. Well, that's what scientists call False dignity. The true dignity is the dignity that we're born with. And I'll tell you, Dave, when, when people, like grown people, you know, grown adults, they, they say, when they listen to me say this, it's like, oh my God, all these years I've been thinking that I've got to, in order to feel good about myself and to feel worthy, I have to do something. Well, okay, doing something is, is, is important. But that core essence of who we are, we. We don't get that message very often anywhere else. And so as Tutu said, that's your first thing that you have to do to make sure people know that they have dignity. They were born with it, and nobody can take it away. It's the first step toward understanding that we're all in this together. We humans, we may have our differences, but at the same time, we all have dignity. And it's our highest common denominator and we have to aspire to understanding it. But if you don't accept your own dignity first, I mean, I know this from my own example. I used to think, you know, I mean, I got five degrees, Dave, thinking I was going to find dignity in those degrees. You know, five degrees and a two year postdoc at Harvard before I got my Harvard job. So I was, I was really thinking that, whoa, I'm gonna, I'm gonna feel good about myself once I get all this stuff taken. But honestly, it's the real, sincere, authentic dignity is what each and every one of us come into the world with.

Dave Stahoviak (19:07)

Yeah, boy, I just keep coming back to what you've said and in the book of the importance of being connected to our own dignity first, right before we can even do more for others. And when you talk with people about this and they're thinking about this word sometimes for the first time really intentionally, what's an indicator that comes up that that connection isn't quite there?

Donna Hicks (19:33)

Well, you know, it shows up, Dave, in the form of anxiety, depression, the feeling that you really can't be your authentic self in certain environments. That a colleague of mine, Bob Keegan, he said when he went in, he was, he's another consultant. And he said that for the first time he went into the corporate world because he's a psychologist like me, human development psychologist. He said the first time he went in, he was amazed that people in the workplace were doing two jobs. And I thought, whoa, two jobs, what's that? And he said, well, it's the job that they were hired to do to begin with, but then the other job Was covering up your sense of inadequacy or not, you know, not really feeling like you're up to the task. And you have to be sure that. And he said it's usually, you know, the covering up part, it takes so much of the energy away from the job that you were actually hired to do. It's a liberation. You know what I often say that we have to liberate our dignity because it's in there. You know, it's in there, but we have to set it free. And I think once we get to that point, Dave, where we've liberated our own dignity and we can see it in others and we can understand the importance of the dignity of the greater good and all of that. Once we see that, it becomes so much easier. Like we let go of that anxiety, we let go of that depression, we let go of the feeling that we're less than or we can't really measure up to everybody else there. But it's a lot of psychological pain. Dave. I think, to answer your question, I think there's a lot of self doubt. I see a lot of self doubt even in very accomplished people.

Dave Stahoviak (21:29)

Really, when you see people start to take the steps to liberate their dignity just a bit, what's one thing you see people do or begin thinking or believing that helps?

Donna Hicks (21:43)

Well, I think over, oh my gosh, I've seen so many examples of this, but I think what the real evidence is that they're willing to make themselves vulnerable. And what do I mean by that? Well, let's say if they make a mistake, let's say they are in a supervisory position or a boss, a leader, and they make a mistake in the past they might have tried to cover it up, try to save face and not look bad in the eyes of their direct reports. But when they realize, oh my gosh, my dignity is going to be there no matter what I do, I can make a mistake, but I don't have to worry about what everybody's going to think of me having made that mistake. Because our inner dialogue is fraught with, with self doubt. It's like, oh, don't say you made the mistake because you're going to lose your power, you're going to lose your status. Well, the fact is the opposite happens. What I see the opposite happens because when you say, gee, you know what, I really messed up with that policy decision and I want to come to you, you meaning my direct reports, and I want to just say, look, I am sorry if this affected you negatively. It was not my intention I just, I didn't have all the information and whatever, you know, I'm just making this up. But, but it, to make yourself vulnerable and say, look, I'm more concerned about the truth than I am covering up and saving face. So it's really, it's so powerful. And every time I see it, Dave, I, it just touches me deeply because what the, like the direct reports would say to me, well, gosh, if my boss can do this, make, make himself this vulnerable, then maybe I can do that. So they set an example for what vulnerability looks like. And vulnerability is not weakness. In fact, it takes strength to be vulnerable, strength to admit that maybe we have done something wrong that affected the well being of a lot of people. So when direct reports and bosses get together and they, you know, the bosses say, yeah, I really, I really messed up this time. The other thing that returns there, Dave, in their interactions and in the dynamic between them is empathy. Because people know when they're lying, people know when they're covering up, everybody. This is like we're, we're pretty sophisticated human beings when it comes to this stuff.

Dave Stahoviak (24:21)

Yeah.

Donna Hicks (24:22)

And so, but to make themselves vulnerable, say, oh boy, yeah, I did it and I'm sorry and I'm going to make it better. Well, that's when empathy returns. And I'll tell you, that's the key to human connection, is being able to feel with other people and to understand, boy, if they can do this, I can do it. And that's just a wonderful outcome.

Dave Stahoviak (24:46)

I so appreciate you sharing so much about dignity with us. And we are very intentionally setting aside a lot that's in your book and your work. There's the 10 elements of dignity, the 10 temptations that we all have to violate our own dignity. I think like so many, as I read through those, I see the patterns in myself and I see so many of the common patterns in the people I work with and serve. And my hope for all of us is that hearing what you've taught us and thinking about this word in a new way is that we'd get into the book and the details and begin thinking about, like, how do we bring this into our organizations and lead effectively with it? And, and that leads me to one last question, Donna. As I've been following your work and learning about all the things that you've learned and now shared with us, you know, so often we are learning and growing as we go, all of us, on this, as you've been doing this work and in recent years, I'm wondering what, if anything, you've changed her mind on.

Donna Hicks (25:49)

Well, I think what has happened over the years, because I've been at this now for quite some time, a couple of decades at least, thinking about this issue. And I guess I didn't realize in the beginning how big this issue is. I thought, oh, well, this is just about my conflict resolution world and I'm going to help my colleagues, you know, see this deeply human reaction to being treated as if we don't matter. And I really thought I was focusing and narrowing in on my work as a mediator, international mediator, and I was thrilled for years to just do that. And then when I ended up writing these books and they got out there in the, in the world after it's been trans, these, they have been translated into like 15 languages. And, and I think what I didn't realize in the beginning was that I touched something fundamental about what it means to be a human and what we can achieve. We, all of us, the big we, what we can achieve if we just accept that basic truth. Makes me want to cry, honestly. If we can just accept that basic truth about one another that, you know, we have this shared humanity, we all want to be treated this way, we all want to be treated as if we matter. And I think, I guess it expands out even into the natural world. Every living thing has inherent value and it can have an effect on climate change if we start thinking about the dignity of the planet. Some people have taken this up. I haven't because I'm not a climate scientist, but people have taken it up. I guess I didn't understand the depth and the breadth of this issue as it affects our lives as human beings and how it has the power, or it could have the power to unite us if we did accept those three Cs, our own dignity, the dignity of others, and the dignity of something bigger. However you want to interpret that, I think it's a secret. It's a secret to a fulfilled life. And I had no idea. I'm also thinking, Dave, that if our species is going to evolve, if we're going to stay around the human species, we better get this right because we're going to self destruct if we don't. Dignity is more important now than ever.

Dave Stahoviak (28:21)

And how powerful it is when people figure it out. And as you were saying that, I was thinking, my wife Bonnie had the privilege years ago to see Desmond Tutu speak and, and just what an example he is of someone who has connected to his dignity and the people around him and of course, the greater good. And I Remember her telling me that just being in his presence brought her to tears even before he said anything, that when you have really tapped into this inherent value we all have as human beings and the people around us, like what possibility it opens and how, like, so much truth is there for all of us.

Donna Hicks (29:08)

Oh, wow, that's beautiful, Dave. That's beautiful.

Dave Stahoviak (29:11)

Donna Hicks is the author of Leading with how to Create a Culture that Brings out the Best in People. Donna, thank you so much for all the work you've been doing.

Donna Hicks (29:20)

Oh, you're welcome. Thank you, Dave.

Dave Stahoviak (29:28)

If this conversation was helpful to you, three related episodes I'd recommend to you. One of them is episode 143, how to get Way Better at Accepting Feedback. Sheila Heen was my guest on that episode. I'm thinking about it because it's mentioned in Donna's book, Sheila's Work, and also because it's something so many of us never think that much about. We think about how to give feedback. A lot of us have had some kind of training or we've heard advice on how to do that, but we haven't often thought, thought about how do we accept feedback. It is a entry point into dignity as well, of being able to honor the feedback that we get from others and then to consider what we do with it. In episode 143, Sheila really walked us through how to think about that, what to do with it, and surface so many of the points that come up from her book. Thanks for the feedback. Again, that's episode 143. Also recommended episode 254, how to use Power for Good and Not Evil. Dacher Keltner was my guest on that episode. His work at the Greater Good center at Berkeley. Bad news and good news about that episode. The bad news is is that his research, along with Donna's, along with so many other folks, shows pretty definitively that if you have more power or more wealth or worse both, you tend to have less empathy for others. It's been replicated many, many, many times. And leaders tend to be folks in organizations who, compared to their colleagues, have more power and have more wealth. It means that we are all subject to that tendency to have less empathy. That's the bad news. The good news is, is once you know that, you can do something about it to guard against that tendency. And we talked about that in episode 254 of the entry point for that again, episode 254 for more on that. And then finally, I'd recommend episode 580, help people show up as themselves. Frederick Leloux was my guest on that episode. Also mentioned in Donna's book, has done extraordinary work on helping people reinvent organizations, getting us all thinking about some of the assumptions we have about how we put together structure for organizations and how to rethink that. And at the heart of that is dignity. And he has done so much work around that of thinking about how to create dignity not just for ourselves and the people we work with, but actually to structure organizations that do that so well too. Wonderful entry point for that and a great compliment to this conversation is episode 580. All of those episodes, of course, you can find on the coaching4leaders.com website and I'm inviting you today to set up your free membership@coaching4leaders.com if you do, it's going to give you access to all of the past episodes, searchable by topic. And one of the topic areas that we are filing this episode under is organizational culture. We've had many conversations over the years around organizational culture, and if you are thinking right now about how do you transform culture lead in a new way, many of those conversations will be helpful starting points for you and you can get full access just by setting up your free membership. Go over to coachingforleaders.com set up your free membership and you'll be off and rolling and speaking about culture and learning. One of the questions I get fairly often from people is I'd like to recommend a book to one of my colleagues, or recommend a training program to one of my employees, or get my manager listening to your podcast. I hear that occasionally. How do I do that in a good way? How do I make a recommendation for them to do that and actually follow through? And it is a really, really nice intention to want to recommend something you've done that you think would be helpful to someone else. And almost always it is the wrong way to approach it. I have seen so many of those just not go anywhere. I think there's a way better way to approach it that is so much more likely to have someone engage with learning something that you've discovered that would be helpful to them. In a recent journal entry, I outlined the three steps I think work way better in helping people to discover learning and to benefit from things that you know about. I covered that in a recent journal entry. It's part of Coaching for Leaders plus. If you'd like to receive my journal entries each week, I write them out, send them right to your inbox. It's one of the benefits of coaching for leaders plus. Just go over to coaching 4 leaders plus for more and to join and not only support our work, but also to be able to help you to see so much more a part of the Coaching for Leaders ecosystem. Coaching four Leaders plus for that Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest. Next week I'm glad to welcome Joel Perez to the show. We are going to be talking about Leading with Humility, an important follow up to this conversation today. Join me for that with Joel. Have a great week and see you back on Monday.