Podcast Summary: Coaching for Leaders, Episode 747

Title: How to Get Out of a Rut, with Anne-Laure Le Cunff
Host: Dave Stachowiak
Guest: Anne-Laure Le Cunff
Release Date: September 1, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the universal challenge of being stuck in a rut, especially for leaders aiming to foster change in themselves and their organizations. Dave Stachowiak welcomes neuroscientist, entrepreneur, and author Anne-Laure Le Cunff, who advocates for "tiny experiments" as a more effective and compassionate approach than rigid goal-setting. Together, they explore why traditional methods often fail and how small, science-inspired actions can yield sustainable progress and personal growth.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Limitations of Goal-Obsessed Culture

• Traditional goal-setting pitfalls:

  • Goals provide certainty, but that’s only useful when outcomes and paths are already clear.
  • Modern environments are constantly changing, making rigid goals limiting.
  • "Clinging to that illusion of certainty is actually going to limit your potential."
    — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [02:36]

• Why 'SMART' goals often fall short:

  • Many organizational and personal goals are outcome-focused, ignoring the internal experience or changing landscape.

2. The Power of Tiny Experiments

• Contrast with goals:

  • Goals focus on outcomes; experiments focus on learning and iteration.
  • "When you design an experiment...you start not from a specific destination...but from a hypothesis."
    — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [03:30]

• How to create a tiny experiment:

  • Identify an action and a duration—a clear, time-limited protocol.
  • E.g.: "I will publish a weekly newsletter until the end of the year." [05:06]
  • Evaluate both internal (e.g., fulfillment, enjoyment) and external (followers, results) signals during the experiment.

3. Internal vs. External Signals of Success

• Importance of internal signals:
  • Leaders tend to overemphasize lagging (outcome) indicators like KPIs.
  • Noticing internal signals—enjoyment, flow, energy—helps determine if a change is truly working.
  • "Is it really success if you manage to hit those KPIs, but you sacrifice your own mental health in the process?"
    — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [07:40]

4. Learning, Feedback Loops, and the Growth Mindset

• Growth is cyclical, not linear:

  • Progress involves feedback, revisiting assumptions, and iterating on efforts.
  • "We don't go in circles; we grow in circles."
    — Anne-Laure Le Cunff (quoted by Dave), [08:29]

• Embracing experimentation:

  • Success comes from completing cycles of learning, not just reaching an endpoint.

5. The Leadership Challenge: Embracing Uncertainty

• Relationship with uncertainty:
  • Many leaders are conditioned to minimize uncertainty, but real growth comes from engaging with it.
  • "Uncertainty can actually be exciting...there is an opportunity for growth."
    — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [10:54]

6. Building Experimentation into Life and Work

• No need to experiment everywhere:

  • Find where you have psychological safety and bandwidth to try something small.
  • "At any given time, you have at least a little bit of space for experimentation."
    — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [13:23]

• Examples of tiny experiments:

  • Removing your phone from the bedroom for 10 days to improve sleep—experiments can be about subtraction as well as addition. [14:31]

7. Metacognition: A Tool for Continuous Growth

• Reflective practice:

  • Create space and margin to notice what's working and what isn’t.
  • Use the "Plus, Minus, Next" framework:
    • Plus: What went well?
    • Minus: What didn’t go well?
    • Next: What to focus on or iterate next? [16:40–18:21]

• Application in teams:

  • Weekly 1:1s start with this framework for self-reflection and constructive conversation.

• Spotting patterns:

  • Recurring 'minus' items signal underlying issues needing experimentation and new approaches.
  • "We can even design an experiment...to help with that underlying issue."
    — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [20:06]

8. The Role of Education and Mindset in Growth

• Beyond knowledge accumulation:
  • The ability to think about and question one’s own thinking (metacognition) is more critical than mere expertise. [21:11–22:26]
  • "The most successful people are the ones who are able to update their mental models as they go based on the current data, the current context."
    — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [22:41]

9. Surprising Organizational Impact

• Business applications:
  • Anne-Laure expected her book to help in personal settings, but 80% of her post-publication work is now with organizations and leaders. [24:00]
  • The tiny experiments framework is increasingly important in business contexts for adaptation and innovation.

Memorable Quotes

• "Clinging to that illusion of certainty is actually going to limit your potential."
  — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [02:36]

• "When you design an experiment...you start not from a specific destination...but from a hypothesis."
  — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [03:30]

• "Is it really success if you manage to hit those KPIs, but you sacrifice your own mental health in the process?"
  — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [07:40]

• "We don't go in circles; we grow in circles."
  — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, as referenced by Dave, [08:29]

• "Uncertainty can actually be exciting...there is an opportunity for growth."
  — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [10:54]

• "The most successful people are the ones who are able to update their mental models as they go based on the current data, the current context."
  — Anne-Laure Le Cunff, [22:41]

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• [02:10] — Risks of over-rigid goal obsession
• [03:19] — What is a "tiny experiment"?
• [05:04] — Examples: Newsletter and thought leadership
• [08:19] — Growth is cyclical, not linear
• [10:37] — How leaders can start to embrace uncertainty
• [13:23] — How to carve out space for experimentation
• [14:31] — “Subtractive” tiny experiments (e.g., no phone in bedroom)
• [16:13] — Metacognition and the 'Plus, Minus, Next' practice
• [18:46] — Using reflective frameworks with teams
• [20:06] — Using patterns to identify necessary change
• [22:41] — Metacognition over knowledge accumulation
• [24:00] — Organizational insights: Applying tiny experiments to teams

Episode Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is warm, thoughtful, and encouraging—a blend of scientific insight and practical wisdom. Both Dave and Anne-Laure advocate incremental change, reflection, and kindness to oneself. The episode empowers leaders to experiment on a scale that matches their current life context, turning the experience of being "in a rut" into an opportunity for adaptive, sustainable growth.

Additional Resources Mentioned

• Anne-Laure Le Cunff’s Book: Tiny: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World
• Framework: Plus, Minus, Next for reflective practice ([16:40] and [18:21])
• Related Episodes:
  • [376] James Clear on identity-based habits
  • [507] BJ Fogg on starting small with behavior change
  • [540] Juliet Funt on creating space

This summary captures the episode’s essential lessons on moving beyond a rut by shifting from outcome-obsessed goals to small, adaptive, and reflective experiments, applicable for both personal and organizational leadership.