A (4:29)

And you, as you were saying that, I was thinking back to all of the organizations and leaders I've supported who often had engagement initiatives going on and the assessments going on. And when you would talk with many of the employees in those organizations, you would hear not everyone, but a lot of the cynicism of, you know, we've done this survey for the last two, three years. Sometimes there's some lip service to it. By and large, not every organization there were outliers, of course, but by and large, you would hear a lot of cynicism and almost the sense like it would have been better if we just hadn't asked at all. Like, to ask and actually go through the assessment and then not do anything with that information was almost worse than the status quo. And that leads me to wondering about the term that you have put in the title of your book, which is well being. There is a distinction between engagement and well being. When you think about that distinction, how do you frame it?

B (5:27)

Well, engagement, interestingly, is something that companies want. So in other words, we want people to put in discretionary effort and to work beyond what we're asking them to do. That's really what engagement is all About. So if I'm an employee and you're doing an engagement survey, I don't really care about the outcome except that I want to have a happier place to work. So if I'm not growing, if I'm not learning, if I'm not being promoted, if I've got a bad manager, I'm willing to put that on a survey so that you will fix that for me.

A (6:02)

Right.

B (6:02)

But the end game is that you're trying to get me to, to work harder. That survey isn't going to do anything for me. Right. So, so I, I think it's always been sort of a one sided effort. If we could only get people to be more engaged, we could make this company more profitable is sort of the driving force of it. Well, that obviously hasn't worked. And so what's interesting is that in, in my original book, Lead from the Heart, my, my premise is that a, we're not rational beings at all. Descartes said, I think, therefore I am. And we've always believed him and we've always wanted the brainiest people in management roles when in fact up to 95% of human behavior is driven by feelings and emotions. So we should be concerned about how people feel. We should be giving people an experience of positive emotions in their, in their day to day, week to week experience at work. Because science has proved that we actually thrive. We're hardwired to thrive on that. So we need a disproportional ratio of positive to negative emotions. So if you care about your people, if you're growing them, if you're coaching them, if you're making them feel safe and you, you tell them how much you appreciated, you're dripping positive emotions on people at the same time as expecting them to perform. So we should be tapping into how people feel and doing it regularly. And recalibrating in the moment is a much wiser way of leading a team and leading a business than waiting for a semiannual or annual survey.

A (7:35)

And this has of course shifted in just our society and our expectations about work too, and how work fits into our lives. And the pandemic was a huge inflection point on this. We do think about, well, being differently today than most of us thought about it even five, ten years ago as far as how we show up and work. And we're seeing that in the research and the data too, right?

B (7:59)

100% right. So it used to be that we all went to work to get a paycheck and the transactional relationship, the value exchange, if you will was you do a good job, you get to keep your job and we may give you a bonus. And if you don't do a good job, there's somebody sitting in the other room waiting to take your job. So there's always this element of fear and intimidation that if I don't perform. But people needed to make a living. And so we all accepted that. Our previous generations accepted that, well, we're now at a point where most people can meet their basic needs. And so if you look at Maslow, Maslow said not only is there a hierarchy of needs, but he also said that we don't start pursuing the next level until the lower level is met. So when you're able to meet your basic needs for food, shelter, water and safety, then you start going to work, going, I need more than this because that's the natural aspiration. So your point about COVID is completely accurate, which is that we all had this assessment. We all had time to go, am I working in the right place? Am I doing the right job? Do I have the right manager? Do I want to stay doing what I'm doing? There's no coincidence that 20% of the American workforce quit in 2021. The great resignation. Why did they do that? The surveys that the studies that came out from places like McKinsey and Gallup showed that the principal reason was that people didn't have a good, caring boss. They didn't feel connected and belonging to a team, and they didn't feel overall that their well being was supported. So that just reinforces everything that I believe, indeed.

A (9:41)

And it's so interesting thinking about this in that so much of our thinking now is about the broader sense of well being and how we show up at work and wanting more than just the paycheck. And all the things that you described earlier. And you highlight that one of the biggest drivers of well being is belonging. And you write in the book, a sense of belonging comes when workers feel their organizations, managers and colleagues care about them personally. It comes when their workplace consistently meets their social needs for friendship, connection and appreciation. It comes when they feel there is diversity, inclusion and trust in the workplace. And when people work collaboratively as a team. And you point out in all of this that the manager of the organization, the team, the manager matters a lot, don't they?

B (10:39)

You know, Gallup determined when they. They're obviously very focused on engagement and they demonstrated. They actually wrote a book called it's the Manager. And the conclusion of the book is that 70% of engagement is largely Driven by an employee's experience with their manager. We can impute that. The same is true for, for employee well being, how people feel generally. You know, we talk about organizational cultures. There's no research that shows that organizational cultures have any impact on people for whether they stay, whether they're committed. What matters is the culture on their team, whether they're working for somebody who supports them, that knows them, that makes accommodations for them relative to what their personal needs are and just because they're another human being. But also this, this idea that like, it really kind of blew my mind, to be honest with you, as I was reading the studies, that it's like, can I be Mark Crowley on this team? Can I be who I want to be? Can I show up as I really am or do I have to hide behind something else? Am I going to be diminished? Because forever, whatever it is, and all the, you know, nationalities where I grew up, east coast, west coast, sexuality, I mean, there's just like a millions of ways that we can parse people out. And regardless of what it is, people want to be able to feel that they can not only be themselves, but that everyone around them welcomes them, appreciates them, knows them. And so what I'm saying is that if we understand that then if, if I'm a manager, then what I should be focused on, if, if I'm really, if I want to just nail one piece of, of well being, I would focus here and what I would do is to say I'm not going to focus on individuals, I'm going to focus on the team. That's not to say that, Dave. If you worked on my team, then you were a star. That I'm not going to ever acknowledge you being a star because you're just one member of the team. You're going to go, wait a minute, I'm doing phenomenal work here. Why am I not getting any love? I'm going to give you the love. But what I'm really going to do is to say, Dave, if you're happy working here, it's going to be because you're going to be collaborative, cooperative, working with people who are looking out for you at all times, not sniping at you or competing with you. We want to have a really highly cohesive team. And Daniel Coyle wrote this great book where he went and looked at the best teams out there, many of them sports teams, and the highest performing sports teams, professionally and collegiately, all have this as a common denominator. And he makes the point that just resonated so strongly with me, which is that the coaches that we all admire, the ones that really, truly, consistently are not only winning championships, but are also making sure, like in the collegiate level, that their players graduate from college, you know, that they're caring about the whole person, not just expecting their performance. That what they have in common is that there's no lone wolf on the team. There's no one who will take the final shot always and never think to pass it or won't look for ways to teach or share what they know with other people. The idea is that we work as a cohesive, collaborative team and that that will elevate all of our performance. And so I just think that's profound. It's just so profound. And we think that we need to measure people. And like, you know, Dave, looking at your performance, I'm comparing it to the other five people over here, and you're really not keeping up with the other five people. What am I conveying to you? I'm conveying to you that those other five people are your competitors. So now are you going to share with them? Now you're going to coach them? You teach them what you know? No. You're going to feel them as a threat. But if I say to you, Dave, here are the standards of the position and you're not meeting those goals, I'm not making it so that those other people are a threat to you. I'm saying, hey, go over and find out what they're doing, meet with them, talk to them, see if you can get some ideas. And then I'm going to them and I'm saying, hey, Dave's got a little struggle here. He's going to turn it around. But I would love it if you guys would help Dave. That's a totally different orientation than we normally think about in leadership.

A (15:00)

Indeed. When I put down your book yesterday, after finishing it, I sort of had two thoughts. One was the really cynical thought, and then one was the hopeful thought. The cynical thought was, wow, like, we spent all these years in organizations with very clear research connecting employee engagement to performance of the organization. And we, by and large, failed miserably at it as a society, as a. As a workforce. And now we're going to try to do it with employee wellbeing. And we now see initiatives for wellbeing initiatives in organizations. And the news isn't great on the outcomes of a lot of those yet, at least. And so there's. The cynical part of me is like, okay, well, how are organizations going to do any better this time. But the hopeful part of me is what we've been talking about. Regardless of what the organization may or may not do, there is so much that the individual manager can do to be a force for this inside of their own teams. And all of us have the opportunity to do that. And one of the messages you have really strongly in the book is to be a positive force. And it comes out of the research from John Gottman's work on marriage. Interestingly, we actually talked about marriage a moment ago and I'm curious if you could take us into his work and what you learned about ratios in thinking about positivity.

B (16:35)

So I just think this is the coolest thing. John Gottman is an emeritus professor at the University of Washington and he wrote a book about marriages and what, how marriages or, and partnerships, long term relationships, if you will, what makes them endure. Like what's the common denominator of people that can be married 25, 30, 45, 50 years and what breaks them down? And so I'm applying this, by the way, to how we manage people. But what he was able to demonstrate was that it's called the Gottman ratio and it plays into everything we've been talking about, that a human beings thrive on positive emotions and that relationships thrive on positive emotions. And that for any long term relationship or even short term relationship to endure, both parties need to experience at least 4 to 1 positive to negative ratio of positive to negative emotions. So in other words, we'll just talk about this. In a relationship, if you text your wife and say, hey, I'm thinking of you, I just drove by someplace, we had dinner five years ago, remember that night? That's a drip of a positive emotion. If I'm asking you about your day, I bring you flowers, I'm giving you these experiences where I'm saying, you matter, I'm thinking about you, I love you. And he says if the ratio is 4 to 1 and life is difficult, right, you get into a spat with your spouse and you have an argument or something. What he's saying is that we overcome those kinds of difficulties when we have a consistent 4 to 1 ratio. So interestingly, there's a professor at Chapel Hill, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, Barbara Fredrickson. And she's done separate studies. She's the one who told me we are hardwired as human beings to thrive on positive emotions. But what she also proved, and I'm hoping that the audience takes this not as a romantic thing, but as a serious human thing, she said that when you think about positive emotions. We're thinking about joy and awe and love and interest and appreciation and the whole list. And she said, but what we've discovered and what by we she meant I she discovered is that any experience of positive emotions is an experience of love. And that at the end of the day, is what sustains all relationships. So I, at the end of my podcast, I end every podcast saying, love your people. And that's not romantic love, it's not Valentine's. It's just the human experience of making sure that people have an experience of positivity. So Be a Positive Force is the title of the chapter, for that specific reason.

A (19:24)

And every time I end up in a conversation with a leader about something like this, about being a positive force in their organization, recognizing people, pointing out the good things almost to a person, everyone says, well, yes, that's important, right? Like, I want that, I want that from my leader organization. And then we get into like, okay, let's talk about how you're doing that and like how you're bringing that into your organization. And by and large, people say, well, I'm not quite doing it regularly or I'm not really doing it at all. And I just think it's so interesting how we know this research so strongly. In fact, as you were, as you were sharing this Mark, I was thinking back 25 years when I started my first role as a full time professional. It was managing an education center for kids. I don't know if I've ever talked about this in the podcast, but I, I worked as a director for an education center and everyone who came in the company had a book that was required reading. It was Positive Coaching by Jim Thompson. And it was a book that was aimed at sports coaches for kids, sports teams. And we used it to set a culture of being coach, like within the learning center that we were in. And he had the, almost the same ratio in the book. He said, when you're coaching kids on a sports team or in any environment, 75, 25, 75% positive reinforcement, pointing out the things they're doing while giving them recognition, noticing them when they're doing something effective, and 25% corrective of, okay, here's something you can shift, here's something I'd invite you to do differently. And, and it, it so helped me as an early manager where I, I took it literally. And what I learned to do was to separate those conversations. I used to go and find employees and I would just find like good things they were doing and I would try to bring that regularly into interactions so that I would really try to hit that 75, 25 ratio. And when I did a good job at doing that, which I didn't always do, but when I did, it was unbelievable. The difference as far as how people would show up, their energy level, how much they would serve and, and yet how much. We struggle to do this consistently, don't we?

B (21:43)

It's brilliant everything you just said. And I have to compliment you on this idea of separating. So if you have to come to me and go, Mark, you know, you're, you're not meeting your goals. We need to have a conversation about that. You're not going, hey, Mark, I love you, man, but you're not hitting your goals or, you know, I got a compliment from a customer yesterday and they really liked you, by the way. You're not meeting your goals. So Roy Baumeister found that the feedback sandwich, which is the we heard from your customer, the customer loved you. You're not hitting your goals, by the way, did I mention that the customer loved you? Like the sandwich of positive, negative, positive. And what Roy Baumeister found was that people resent that beyond belief. It's like it's a setup, it's a manipulation. Just tell me what I need to do, do better and, and help me figure it out. His argument was, if you just say, dave, this is a conversation about goal achievement. I think you're not hitting your targets right now. I don't really want to spend any time more on that. You know, you're not meeting them. I want to talk about how I can help you meet them. So just focus all your attention, get it out, tell them what the problem is and then help them fix it, which I absolutely love. But you did that intuitively. The other thing is that why managers don't do this is for one, they don't get enough feedback. So they're not asking for feedback. So they just assume, oh yeah, I'm doing great. People know that I appreciate them and, you know, I compliment them all the time and I'm a positive force. And then you find out somehow that they're not. So the idea of doing Pulse surveys is going to be a very big reminder or it's going to be a wake up call for a lot of people who think I'm already excelling at this. And to only find out that people like, no, you're not, you're not at all. And so I think Pulse surveys will make, it will force managers into not only knowing the reality of how they're impacting people and what their energy is, but also will require them to make it more intentional. They're going to have to become more positive if they're going to want to succeed in a regular survey kind of environment.

A (23:54)

Yeah, yeah, it does. And two big things I'm hearing there. One is the ratio itself, the 4 to 1. 75, 25, 5 to 1, depending on how we frame it. And then also the separation of the two of like, if I'm going to have a positive interaction, have the positive interaction, have that be separate from whatever might be corrective or coaching or whatever else that might be saying that might be more in that negative zone. And speaking of how people react, I thought, also interesting you mentioned Baumeister's work and his book, and I thought it was interesting that the research and as you write that proves that the human brain is actually hardwired to react more strongly to negative influences than to positive ones by a factor of at least 4 to 1. And so you think about that. And part of the reason for the much heavier weighting on the positive side is that when you do say something that's negative, that's corrective, that's inviting someone to do something differently, that tends to overpower the things that we say positively. So if you don't have the ratio there, you're withdrawing from the bank account that isn't there completely.

B (25:04)

But the thing is that I think somehow we all got the same memo, which was, your job as a manager is to call out the things that aren't working. And so what we end up doing unintentionally is, is to go, well, we're not hitting this goal. What about mentioning the seven that we are hitting and commend people for hitting those seven, and then try to figure out what you're doing about the other one instead? It's like, I don't know what's going on here, people, but we're, we're not hitting this, and this is a problem. And what they don't understand is people are looking at you and they're like, is he serious? Because we're, we're nailing it. We're killing it on the other six. And we look like stars here. And he's calling us out for the one thing we didn't do well. And so unfortunately, we're hardwired also to reciprocate whatever we get in our behavior. And so when a manager does that and isolates the problems and can't focus on the things that are going well, then speaking in the vernacular we go, well, screw him. I'm just. I'm not going to work that hard then if that's how he's going to treat me, this is how we go. And so we shut down, we start working, and then all of a sudden, a month later, you know, the manager goes, are you all right? Like, yeah, I'm okay. And we find out that it's because they got their feelings hurt again. You know, it's like, if we could just focus on the positivity and then say, hey, we got this one goal we're not doing. Let's spend some time thinking about this. How cool would it be if we got seven for seven, we got six for seven, and you guys are doing great, but let's focus on getting this one. How much more inspiring is that?

A (26:41)

Yeah, this is where this ratio is so helpful for me. Of, like, even if we don't hit it perfectly, of just to have it as a starting point, a framing point, and knowing that, that, that helps. Because, of course, as you point out in, in the book, leaders have to make unpopular decisions. They have to set expectations and accountability and give people feedback. There are going to be negative interactions. There are going to be things that don't land well with people as part of the work. That is the nature of working an organization of leading people well. And we need and want that, all of us. And it's the other side that sometimes we don't. It's not that we shouldn't do those things. Of course we have to. It's the other side that we tend not to do as well. And I think this is where a lot of times when I hear people struggling with this in our community, it's, well, I don't want to be the person that is overly accommodating or Pollyannish. I really want to do it genuinely. And when you run into people who kind of intellectually are with you and get this, but they say, like, you know, I don't want to. I don't want to be insincere at all that. How do you invite them to start to think about this as a beginning point?

B (27:51)

I mean, this seriously. You got to go into your heart and you got to ask yourself, do I like managing other people? Do I get something in terms of meaning and significance and satisfaction out of managing people? Because the only people that have ever asked me that question and I hear it, it's like, wow, you know, I. I don't want to just be going, I love you, man. I love you, man. I'm like, who's saying that? Whoever asked that it. But it has to be genuine. It has to be. I tell the story and it's true. I was speaking at General Dynamics Information Technology in Washington, D.C. a couple years ago, and I flew from California to Washington D.C. 2500 miles. And I was, you know, on a different time zone. And I just was felt disoriented like my own time. So I looked at my phone right as I got out of bed and found out that my older brother had died. And then.

A (28:47)

Oh, no.

B (28:49)

Yeah, it was kind of a blow. But the coroner had sent me an email to say that I needed to confirm who he was because he died alone. And so I have this knowledge, and I'm going to go speak and I'm also going to be interviewed by the CEO of the company with 28,000 employees. And I'm like, okay, what do I do?

A (29:09)

Oh, wow.

B (29:10)

So I decided I'm going to put on a brave face and I'm going to give the speech and then go home and deal with it. So I went gave a speech, and then I came back into this main auditorium and the CEO brought me up on stage. And she just started off, she said, how are you today, Mark? And I went, I'm great. And of course, you know, Mike, that's the face that I'm trying to put out there. And she goes, how are you really? And it stunned me like the goose is cooked here. I can't lie here and tell her that everything's great. After she asked me it that way. And so I told her and they were incredibly supportive. But it was this just moment where I like, what would motivate you? So I found out that it's her standard, she does it intentionally. And what she's really saying is, tell me what's the real truth? What are you really feeling? What are you really thinking? Don't give me some. I'm doing great. How you doing? Great. And we walk away from each other. I don't get to see you very often. So tell me what's going on with you? And she cares. And I think that's the issue. If you care about people, you're not going to have any insincerity. You're going to be thinking about them when you read things and send them to them and go, hey, Dave, just read this article. You and I are having this conversation. And I saw this and like, thought of you or, Dave, I've been watching your performance over the last couple months, and it just blows my mind how effective you are. And this is just a note to say thank you. I'm really grateful to you that you can't fake that. And I also think one more thing here is that we think we're. When we give a people appreciation, that it's like we got to go into our wallets for us, like it's going to cost us something. And also this perverse, poor understanding of human nature, which is if I say to you, Dave, you've done a fantastic job for the last six months, and I just want to commend you that somehow you're going to go, oh, good. Well, I'm going to take the next six months off, and I'm not going to perform because Marx thinks that I'm doing a great job, somehow people are going to be inspired or motivated to skate. And instead, what happens is when you give people that recognition and it's sincere that people want to do more because they love that experience and they want more for that from you.

A (31:28)

You know, as you were saying that, I was thinking about one of our academy members who just this past 60 days set a commitment in our work to just to be a more thoughtful, trusting leader. And the way she did it is once a day, she looked for an opportunity for kindness, thoughtfulness, sending someone a quick note on something. And lots of them were things that were just really small. And, boy, she was telling us, like, how meaningful that was. Like, in a few cases, got pages of notes back from people, in some cases saying, no one has said anything for 20 years like this.

B (32:06)

Yeah.

A (32:07)

And I just. As I think about that, I think how many times I have heard that over the years, like when. When folks have taken on a commitment to do this better and have really executed on it. Well, we always hear feedback like that. And I think, again, it's so obvious in a way. And yet the invitation I hear from you is just start. Be consistent once a day. Start with thinking about that ratio of yes, Keep doing the constructive things, keep giving the feedback, keep setting the expectations, keep holding people accountable, of course, and start looking for those opportunities to bring in even more of that positive message. And when you do it, boy, it's so amazing. And then you do see the exact opposite of what you described. It's not that people start to skate on like, oh, I'm in good graces with whoever. They want to do more. They want to show up. The research has been showing us that for so many years.

B (32:59)

100% completely agree.

A (33:02)

We are hitting on one part of the book. There are so many invitations you make for us on ways that we can support well being effectively. This is one of many parts. I hope folks will grab the book, dive in for a lot more. And the thing I love about your bookmark is it's so concise. I went and took our kids to the pool last evening and I was behind on my prep and I picked up the book late and by the time they were done swimming I had finished the book. It took an hour and a half to read and there were so much actionable things I could take and put into practice. I mean just. Just one of many. So thank you so much for creating a framework that's really helpful and very practical and accessible to all of us. Mark Crowley is the author of the Power of Employee Move Beyond Engagement to Build Flourishing Teams. Mark, thank you so much for your work.

B (33:54)

This has been a fantastic conversation. Dave, thank you so much for inviting me on.

A (33:58)

My pleasure. If this conversation was helpful to you, three related episodes I'd recommend one of them is episode 404, how to build Psychological Safety. Amy Edmondson, my guest on that episode, looking at her groundbreaking work on psychological safety, central to so much of what we talked about today. And of course with that safety comes the opportunity to support well being in such meaningful ways. Referenced in Mark's book. A great complement to this conversation. Also recommended episode five. Jim Harder from Gallup was my guest on that episode. We talked about Gallup's findings on the changing nature of work. Gallup has been at the forefront of this research for many years. We talked about it in this conversation. So much there that supports how we are showing up in the workplace these days where the challenges are. And of course the message that has been so consistent from Gallup's research for decades now of the importance of the manager. In fact, the book we featured in that conversation is titled it's the Manager. So much relies on the individual manager of how people show up, feel supported or don't in the organization. Episode 409 for that and then I'd also recommend the more recent conversation with Zach Mercurio, episode 733, the Way to Notice People Better. I love this line that came out of that conversation. When people feel like they matter, they act like they matter. Great invitation from Zach. Support so many of the things Mark and I talked about today. All of those episodes you can find on the coaching4leaders.com website. One of the topic areas that we have set up inside the free membership is feedback. Today we talked more on the positive nature of feedback and recognition. There is of course the other side of that constructive, critical nature of feedback that is essential for all leaders as well. Many conversations we've had over the years, in addition to the ones that I just mentioned that will help you to do that better. Have those conversations with care, accountability, clarity, but also kindness and how we can do that effectively as leaders. It's one of the many topic areas that will help you find which you need right now in your leadership. That's exactly why the free membership is there, so you can find exactly what you need on the website. Go over to coaching4leaders.com set up your free membership and you'll be off and running to be able to find what is important to you right now. Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest. Next Monday I'm glad to welcome Margaret Andrews to the show. We are going to be talking about why great leadership starts with understanding yourself. Join me for that conversation with Margaret. Have a great week and see you then. Sam.