A (4:41)

I so appreciate you sharing that. And of course you've developed such an expertise as a consultant and a coach to help leaders to do better at this. And you make the invitation often now to think like a CEO, even if you're an HR or whatever or whatever function you're in. And you've said that strategy isn't just about goals, it's about having the right perspective. Tell me about that distinction.

B (5:04)

Yeah, I think, you know, when we think about strategy, it is really the definition of strategy is not doing something right. We are trying to be different, probably better and create competitive advantage with our strategies. And a lot of times what happens is strategy gets confused with the execution Plan with the tactics, with what we're going to go do. And so you've got to really start with that business strategy first and understand how the organization creates competitive advantage, what the strategy truly is, and how does that really support higher margins of profit, different customer segments. Right. And really kind of builds a moat around the organization. That's what strategy really is. And the way I think about this, and it's a little cliche in hr, I'm not sure if every other support function has this debate, but in hr, we talk a lot about having business acumen and being a business person first. Or the way I like to say it is, you're a business leader with HR expertise. And I think that could apply if you were an IT or marketing. But saying you're a business leader is very different from truly building the business acumen to understand how organizations create competitive advantage, the financial acumen in terms of how that competitive advantage translates into things like ebitda, margin, gross profit, et cetera. All those things will help you build that business acumen that will allow you to understand where the organization's going in the future and what it truly needs from a people talent and organizational capability perspective.

A (6:41)

One of the frameworks that you've highlighted in your work is four questions that almost every CEO is asking and thinking about that through the lens of HR and support functions, of how do we not only be conscious of those questions but also respond to them in a way that is that strategic lens. It's not just the execution piece. And the first of those questions is the CEO asking, are we focused on the right strategic imperatives? And it's very much in that spirit of we were talking a moment ago of like, where is the business and the organization going? It's changing the frame of mindset of looking toward the future and the strategy piece, isn't it?

B (7:28)

Absolutely. And to go a little deeper on this, it's kind of fun. It's a fun exercise that I have people do a lot is, hey, you know, when you woke up this morning, this Monday morning, what was on your mind? And I think for a lot of HR leaders, we're thinking, oh, we've got to make sure we get the hires right. We've got to make sure that we're, I don't know, doing some org design work, you know, but it's almost all people. And I think if you're an IT leader, it's the same thing. Hopefully we didn't get hacked. Right. Our systems are good, but CEOs really do wake up thinking about four key questions. And I think once you understand these questions, it's a lot easier to start having the conversations with the CEO and frame up your initiatives. And so the first one as you talked about is really, are we focused on the right strategic imperatives? Which is really your CEO saying, do we have the right goals? Are we focused on the right markets and trends for our industry? And are we preparing for what's coming next, not just what's happening now? And this is just one part of the goal. Right. But this is sort of them steering the ship, turning the wheel a little bit to now take it a little bit more north. Right. They're kind of making sure they're going the right direction. And CEOs are always thinking about this. Right. It's in real time, more quarter to quarter, maybe not as far out as we'll go on some of the other questions, but it's really thinking, are we going the right area, the right area in the right place, on the right path?

A (8:50)

And part of this is that HR leader of mapping the things HR is doing to the business imperatives and also being able to make the brave decision sometimes of deprioritizing things that no longer line up with that strategy, even if it's something that's worked really well and been really successful in past years.

B (9:14)

Exactly. And so, you know, when you start to understand, are we focused on the right goals and going the right direction from an HR perspective, we can start to say, are we supporting, do our HR initiatives support and align those strategic imperatives? And if I'd gone back to like my Taco Bell experience, you know, if we had positioned that leadership development in a different way around maybe having the right district managers or restaurant managers to grow the business? Right. Maybe there's a different way to frame it. It may have made more sense to the CEO. So the first for HR is how do we support that? How do we align? Are we doing the right things? And then you have to add, really look at your talent and time and resource allocation to ensure you're really focused on that. Because a lot of the support functions have a lot of day to day stuff that can get in the way of making that progress. So that's how I think HR leaders. You have to really step back and say, okay, if these are the imperatives, what is my team doing to make sure we're bringing this to life and making sure that we're delivering what the organization really needs?

A (10:16)

And it comes back to what your CEO asked you years ago of like, how does this Move the business forward. Like, if there's not a clear answer to that question in the HR leaders mind and the CEO's mind, then it doesn't necessarily mean it's not the right thing. But it's definitely something to like, investigate a lot further to make sure there's clarity there. And if not, maybe that's the thing that doesn't stick around.

B (10:39)

Yeah. And one of the questions that HR leaders should be asking themselves here, if you are designing a leadership development program and a lot of what we're doing is we're building and preparing the organization to have that talent, right. Whether it's succession planning, bringing in new leaders with new skills, or developing leaders so they can prepare and drive more growth. And so the first question I always ask around leadership development is you've got to say leadership for what? And that what is really important. And you've got to answer that from that business perspective. And that gets you the opportunity to start to say, now let's get the CEO, the business leaders bought in on this program and they start to see, okay, I see that. What it's critical now tell me how we're going to bring that to life and help me achieve the goals. If you can do those two things, you start to have magic happening.

A (11:24)

One of the other questions you identify that CEOs are always asking, are we operating efficiently and effectively? And the, the distinction here, I think is, is maximizing value while reducing complexity. And one of the things that you invite HR leaders to be thinking about is building systems that reward outcomes and not bureaucracy. And I think if we talk to most HR leaders, they would say, well, I'm not doing that. I'm not trying to lean in on bureaucracy. But the reality is that does come up a lot. And I'm wondering what that looks like when you see people indexing too much on the bureaucracy part of their jobs. Where do they get caught up in that?

B (12:09)

That's a really good question. I think what can happen is we like a certain amount of consistency in how we operate. From an HR perspective, we are focused on ensuring that there is organizational justice or fairness. Right. We want to make sure we're treating everyone as equals as much as possible from a standpoint of not creating new precedent for different situations. Right. So like, well, Dave, we gave you this, this time off. You got to have seven weeks vacation, but someone in the same role only gets four. And there's really no rationale for it. So from an HR perspective, that risk perspective, sometimes that really depends on the organization and the culture we'll lean into process, we'll lean into that structure and we'll use it as a crutch sometimes. So what we've got to really start to do though is understand where the profit levers are, where the cost drivers are in the value chain, what parts of the processes and systems are really adding value, what's adding friction to the employee experience or adding extra cost. And then you have to start to work to eliminate that and reduce that complexity to add more value. And that is not easy to do. Then of course we're talking about some HR processing. But when you really want to add value, we're getting into how the business operates. And that goes back to the second question that really frames this up is are we operating effectively and efficiently? Which is really any good CEO would be asking, are we making efficient use of our resources, are managing costs and staying on budget and are operating in a way that serves our customers well? And so for the HR perspective, it really becomes do we have the right cost and talent model, do we have the right org structure, the org processes and how do we consistently work to eliminate the complexity and shift processes to remain agile? And that's super critical, especially in the age of AI. We're all looking for ways to reduce that complexity and hopefully take some of the routine work and get automated with AI.

A (14:12)

Yeah, indeed. And you painted a great picture of kind of how this doesn't work. What's the time you've seen that work like you've seen someone make that shift and really pivot a little bit more to the outcome and not get caught up so much in the bureaucracy and the risk mitigation, which of course is part of hr, but it shouldn't define it. Have you seen that work?

B (14:33)

I have, and I think it does take a special HR leader at times. But the most important piece is the outcome. And so we should not be doing big initiatives that are lining up to these four questions with the CEO and what they're looking for without really co creating with the business leaders. It's so important that these are not HR initiatives, that they're truly business initiatives that we're helping to drive and we're helping them to think through and we're helping to create. And so that co creation model is really important. And so in that model, the most important question you already hit on, it was, okay, what does success look like? What's the outcome? We're truly trying to get not the process metrics, but really truly, what is that going to look like? And we have to push Past some things that might be squishy. Well, we want to have a great culture.

A (15:23)

Great.

B (15:23)

What does that really mean? What does that start to really look like behaviorally? And I think from a financial perspective, you got to start with the outcomes of the business piece as much as possible. So knowing that you're working with your business leaders to say, hey, we have to reduce costs, we don't want to reduce people. How do we reduce costs in that business model? How can HR help redesign the work that becomes where you can actually have that unlock. But you're starting with that business perspective and the outcomes that we're hoping will hit the P and L or really catch the CEO's eye and they'll be very excited because you actually are delivering what they're. They're focused on.

A (16:00)

Yeah, indeed. And it's so much comes back to curiosity, which we talk about a lot on the show. And I think if by and large, when I talk with HR leaders or leaders and really any support function intellectually, they get it and they will often articulate what you just said. But the, the amount, the number of folks, the percentage of folks that actually go and then sit down and have those conversations and really are curious and really finding out, like, what is the business need today? What is this leader in the organization struggling with right now? Where are they trying to get to? Where what does that success look like and really understand that and then use that as the guidepost to then come back from an hr, IT or marketing perspective and to say, okay, now how do we actually help support that for this particular part of the business, for this particular leader? The number of people actually go and do that and have those conversations is much smaller. But the ones that do, wow, it's really cool to see how they then are, are thinking about this from the strategy perspective and thinking about the outcomes first.

B (17:00)

Absolutely. And I think what's interesting about HR and really more so than other support functions, is that we can look across the organization and what's great about HR leaders is that we can also borrow best practices from marketing. We can look at how technology teams maybe are set up in an Agile or product management teams are set up. We can understand how supply chain works and bring in Lean or Six Sigma. So we're not really confined to having tools to think this way. And the best HR leaders really embrace this mindset of being a business person, but then saying, I'm going to wear a different hat and look at the organization from a systems perspective across all the functions to understand how the real customer Experience impacts the employee experience or vice versa. And that is an unlock is to really think bigger than we typically do from that support function role. Because if we stayed in our lane, just said, well, is this a people issue versus it's a business issue. We're only going to be thinking about are we hiring the right people and what are the skills, what are the capabilities versus wow. Why is, you know, why is our supply chain having impact? Because we don't have a great system to forecast that's actually impacting the team members who are now showing up to help package the goods to then get it to the customer. You know, seeing the bigger picture allows us to have more influence, but it goes back to having that business acumen and then that creativity and curiosity to keep asking the questions, to keep co creating and not just executing what's put in front of us, but really to challenge that and then to initiate ideas and push the organization further to what I would call value creation.

A (18:39)

And there's an element here of mindset and identity. And I think you said it so beautifully earlier that coming at this work of you're not an HR leader per se, you're a business leader with HR expertise, like the business piece first and then okay, I'm utilizing my expertise to do the HR functions that would become a part of that, but it is. That might seem like a subtle distinction, but I actually think it's a really big difference on mindset from an identity standpoint.

B (19:08)

It really is. And I think it takes years. I would think that. I'm sure if you asked me when I was earlier in my career I would tell you that I was a business person. My mom was a marriage and family counselor. My dad was an entrepreneur, had a PhD in economics as well. So he was much more business focused. My mom was more people focused. And so I'm kind of, I guess that's where I get land in the role that I'm in today. But it wasn't really until later in my career when I became a consultant that I really understood what it means to be a business leader and really just started to dig in on that more and really enjoyed it. And I think what we need more in HR are really frankly people coming from MBAs, coming from non traditional backgrounds, whether it's consulting or marketing, even it. I know a great chro of a smaller company who was an IT leader and now he is doing some amazing things in HR and really understands how AI obviously can play into where HR is going and help the organization. But we need to continue to build these different skill sets. And I think that's almost what the future is going to require of all of us, is to not be myopic, but really be much more broad and generalist in a lot of areas. And you'll have to understand that business more depth than we just did in the past.

A (20:23)

Well, and your experience is like such a beautiful kaleidoscope of that. I think about your dad's experience and your mom's experience, and a lot of folks who go into roles like hr, the support functions and organizations say, hey, I really, my heart is the people stuff and the business stuff I know I need to do, but my heart's really the people stuff. And I think about your experience and like, how much of it is the boat and. Right. It's the, it's the business part. It's also the people and creative part. And the, the HR leaders that I've had the privilege to work with that are really indexing on the both end and doing a great job with the business side of it and thinking about so many things we're talking about today, then open up the opportunity to do so much more with the people stuff because they have more resources, because they have more credibility in the organization and the, in the political nature of the work they're doing and responding to the politics well. And then they can do more of the people stuff. And it's really cool to see that come together when someone really does both of those aspects well in the role. And I think, like, that's why I love the invitations you're making for us of like, hey, it's not, it's not one or the other, it's the both. But we're obviously looking more on the business side of it just because that tends to be the one that folks don't do as well or they don't come up with that experience as much. Much.

B (21:39)

Yeah, it's so important to have that balance. And we have to remember that business leaders, if you're a CEO or go back to our four CEO questions, they are thinking about the shareholders, they're thinking about their customers, they're thinking about the employees. They might be thinking about social, social issues as well. Right. There's a lot on the plate of a public company CEO for them to think through, and they are toggling back from all those areas to figure out what is the right mix that works. And if you come in as you're only of a people person and you say, I'm only going to think about the people issues, the Talent issues, the HR issues, if you will. And you can make the analogy the same way. If you thought just about marketing or it, you miss part of that nuance of what really matters. It's never one thing in life to be successful, you've got to do a few things pretty well. You don't do everything well, but you've got to do at least two or three things well. And so the best HR leaders really just look at that from saying, I understand the business well enough to really be able to give you good insight, to make sure we've got the right talent and capabilities to win, and that I can frame it in language in a way that business leaders buy off and get excited about it and say, yep, this feels like something that will move the needle, not an HR initiative. And if you do that, you will have big impact and big influence.

A (22:56)

The third question CEOs are often asking, are we optimizing our business model to create competitive advantage? And it's this one's very much in the spirit of playing the long game. Like, what are the kinds of things that make the organization unique position? Well, competitors can't easily copy. And you invite HR leaders to think about this through the lens of building talent strategies that differentiate your business. When you are thinking about that, what does that look like?

B (23:25)

This one's really one of the hardest ones for HR leaders I think, to line up with for a few reasons. One, you know, we're thinking about the business model to create competitive advantage. This is a little bit of a corporate development kind of MBA McKinsey style question, right? Of like, okay, here's the business we're in today. How can we really leverage this and replicate it? And so one of the great examples here to think through, if you think about Microsoft, Microsoft we all think of as an enterprise software company. But if you actually talk to leaders at Microsoft, and I have some relationships there that I've had over the years, they consider themselves a platform or ecosystem company. And what does that mean? Well, they're thinking about building ecosystems. And so when they bought the Xbox, for instance, they didn't just buy a, or build this gaming console. They built Xbox Live where they have an online ecosystem where they sell the games. Same thing through the way they think about their apps. And the ecosystem of that we're all sort of connected to from a Microsoft perspective. So when you start to think of it that way, you start to understand, well, what are the talent or capabilities we have to have to help build, build out an ecosystem of technology in the different spaces Right. And it shifts the way we think about talent. But this is harder for some HR leaders and frankly it's hard for business leaders because you're really thinking about what are the unique capabilities and advantages that this company has you work with today, what's that moat that you have, how can it be extended into other areas? And so from HR leader, you're not there to figure out where that is. Usually you have a team, it's doing it. You may have external support. Really what you're trying to figure out and how you support this is making sure that you have an organization that is really focused on innovation, learning, experimenting. You understand the capabilities that you might need in the marketplace. If you went into that area, you are being forward looking and understanding what your competitors may or may not be doing. So you understand the landscape and like who's acquiring who and why and how does that fit in to the overall strategies long term. But we probably don't control this one as much. But we are definitely downstream going to be helping to execute and have a culture that can take advantage of a business model and create even more competitive advantage.

A (25:44)

When you were saying that, I just was having this image of thinking of a student who's come into a topic for the first time, as so many of us are on so many different areas. I mean, AI, the most obvious one, but remote work, geopolitical stuff happening. Like so many of the systems tools, trends that we're all used to and how we work have been upended in recent years. And there's the invitation I hear from you of as the HR leader, of being willing and ready to step into that, step into that chair, of spending some time each day, each week being a student, of going and learning, of what are the new trends, what are the new initiatives, what are the new strategies that are maybe totally different than how we've thought about doing things before. And it kind of gets. We were talking about earlier, it's like we're talking about the future, not the today and the yesterday so much anymore. It's being willing to just step into that place. And there's a bit of courage that's required for all of us to do that. And I think particularly in this role, but again, people willing to do that, willing to dedicate some time to learning, to growth, to discovery, to curiosity, makes a big difference.

B (26:53)

Yes. And I think you have to be willing to be wrong or at least not right in the beginning and fail a little bit as well. Right. And every organization is different on this because part of, I think Optimizing your business model to create competitive advantage is really understanding and having a culture of innovation learning experiments. And it depends on the size of the company. And so context is really critical here. You know, I have seen companies that, if you think about Netflix, you know, they obviously have a very unique business model, but they also have a really unique culture and are known for their culture playbook and have built talent strategies that really align there that in some ways create a competitive moat for them. Knowing if I go to Netflix, this is what I'm getting, and that becomes a magnet and that attracts the right people and it repels people as well. So I think that's one area where you can start to see the people connection to a business model or how you create competitive advantage.

A (27:47)

Yeah, and speaking of the people connection, the. The last question you identify, CEOs are asking, do we have a plan for sustainable and profitable growth? And it's not just the can we grow today? It's can we grow in the future? And one of the HR lenses of thinking about this is building a pipeline for critical roles. And so a big part of this is thinking about the future. And what does leadership need and what kind of leaders do we need three to five years out, right?

B (28:15)

Yeah, absolutely. This is the question I think really CEOs think about the most because this is about share price, next quarter results, and then next year's or year over year kind of quarter results. Right. So how do we continue to grow profitably? And frankly, every business owner has to think about this. What this starts to mean, though, is, you know, it's less about cost reduction, as you mentioned. It's really about kind of skating where the puck is going to phrase. Wayne Gretzky's famous quote, what are the critical roles that really matter most? What markets do we need to move into? Why do we have the right leadership there? So this is where that succession planning and building that pipeline can be really critical. It may not be a leadership development program, but are we moving the right leaders to the right job so they get the right experiences so that we know we can continue to grow with the business? A lot of organizations will say, and there's been research on this, and I think if you read different consulting reports, you always kind of hear this, that CEOs are really worried about having the right talent. And if you dig into that, and in my experience, it's not just about talent, it's about having the right talent with the right experiences and really leadership talent to grow the business. Right. If you're trying to grow from 10 billion to 20 billion. You may do some acquisitions, but those acquisitions are going to require leaders that get the culture and can really deliver. And so that's where I think we can have a big impact, is on that leadership side and making sure we're focused on the roles that really deliver differentiated value.

A (29:45)

For the person listening to this who's maybe in a leadership role in HR support and is thinking, okay, there's a lot here I could do and where do I start? One invitation you make is something called Execution plus, which I think is just a really great way to think about a lot of this. Tell me about that model and what does that look like?

B (30:05)

Yeah, Dave, it's interesting because what I've started to notice, even in obviously my years of experience, is that we all have to execute, right? We have to execute in HR every day. And execution is kind of the name of the game. And we're pretty good at it. You know, we're making sure we're hiring the right people within the right time to fill. Everyone's getting paid, benefits are working properly, Performance management works on time. You know, these are all executions, but no one gives you credit for that. CEOs don't give you an award or pull you aside and say, hey, amazing job on running performance management, not even getting hires, frankly. And I think it's very similar to finance. You know, no one's giving a victory parade for finance to close the books. They just have to close the books. So what HR leaders and everyone in support functions really have to do is you've got to find the plus. And that's why I called Execution plus and the Plus. For HR leaders, there's really four things you want to make sure you are focused on. Two to three big initiatives that either drive revenue, reduce costs, complexity, improve productivity, or drive culture transformation. That aligns to the four questions the CEO is thinking about. If you have initiatives, if you don't have initiatives that are the plus, if you don't have them that are lining up to that revenue, productivity, cost reduction, or culture transformation, you're missing a big opportunity to stand out, to have an impact, and really, frankly have way more influence than you do today, because you're going to get credit for the plus. And so you got to find that plus. You've got to work with your leaders to figure out what the plus would be. And then you've got to be initiate and think through and co create that initiative or project that will deliver the value that really becomes that Execution plus for you.

A (31:56)

Yeah, and I. One of the things I think is really so smart about the way you've framed that is that you can't do that for every single part of the organization, the business, every peer that you're supporting, every part of the organization. And part of this is deciding, like, what are those, like you said, two to three things. And also who are the people in the organization that are driving change? Who's the VP of sales, who's the VP of product, whoever that's really driving change, making things happen. And how do you support and align those folks to get traction as a starting point? Because if you're doing that, then it not only helps to drive more results, but it also gives you the opportunity then to do more in the long run. But as a starting point, just starting with the plus, you know, what are those two or three things? And the rest comes with time. But if you start there, it gives you the chance to then do more in the future.

B (32:51)

Yeah. And it's a great point you're bringing up that when this model is working well, what you're going to hear is this. One of your business leaders might say, HR is pretty transactional and I just kind of get the basics from them. And another business leader is going to say, wow, HR is so strategic. They're doing all these important initiatives. For me, I'm really seeing the value and loving it. And for HR leaders, this is hard because we are people pleasers at heart. We want to execute. We've been rewarded for kind of being the firefighter for everybody. But to get the plus, you have to differentiate. You have to basically say we're going to put more resource, more time because we don't have enough of it and a lot of times not even enough capability. And we're going to put it into these initiatives that drive more value. And leader A. I'm sorry, you're not going to get the support you would love. Right. We'd like to get there, but that doesn't align to the four big questions from our CEO, what we're driving. And so we're gonna put the plus in over here on these functions because we think it has more value. And even if the leaders might seem a little bit upset at first when you frame it that way, they're doing the same thing for their organization too, if they're smart.

A (34:04)

Right.

B (34:04)

Everyone's making these choices. And I think getting alignment with those leaders, helping them understand why and what they're gonna see, but more importantly, how this drives the big outcomes they're looking for, makes execution plus work.

A (34:16)

J.P. you've been working so diligently for years to help HR leaders increase their impact and accelerate their careers. And as you have been doing that, I'm curious, over these last few years, especially as your podcast has grown, your influence has grown, what, if anything, have you changed your mind on?

B (34:35)

It's a great question and it's almost a little embarrassing to admit this, Dave, but there was a point, and I know this is, it's a long go, so maybe this isn't more recent and hopefully that's not going to get me in trouble with you on my change my mind.

A (34:49)

Not at all.

B (34:49)

But I, you know, I, I went to hr, I spent five years at Taco Bell, and then I left and went into consulting for, for many years. And there's a time where I really thought HR was and can be transactional and just the general perception of hr.

A (35:03)

Right.

B (35:03)

We're still, we're still fighting that today, even though we've come a long way. And there's a point of me was like, well, look, if I'm a consultant, I am a P and L driver, you know, I generate revenue, if you will, and I thought that was where you wanted to be. And what I realized after about three or four years in that in a consulting space was I was totally wrong. And that HR has really, probably almost even more than any other function, the ability to transform how an organization operates. It's just that we don't do it in the front of the room. We're kind of behind the leaders. We're supporting the leaders. And it was really for me to realize that HR actually has such more value than maybe we're letting ourselves have. And that also really changed my mind to go back into HR and really start figuring out how could I have that impact that I was seeing with some of the great clients I had and become that great HR leader. And so that's where I'm just so bullish on the field. I think this is the best time to be in hr. That's probably one of the best times to ever work in history. But I think from an HR perspective, the future is really bright and we've got an amazing, amazing future of us ahead of us to help shape work in the age of AI and make work better, not just hopefully, you know, maybe less transactional.

A (36:16)

JP Elliott is the host of the Future of HR podcast. JP thank you so much for all the work you're doing for HR leaders. So appreciate it.

B (36:24)

Dave, thank you.

A (36:31)

If this conversation was helpful to you, Three additional episodes that will also support you. One of them is episode 433, how to start managing up. Tom Henschel was my guest on that episode. The host of the look and Sound of Leadership podcast, A talented executive coach and also a dear friend of mine, Tom has been on the show many times over the years to help us to do better as leaders, and Tom is very gifted at helping folks to manage up. In that conversation we talk about some of the key things that you should be thinking about when influencing up. Also side to side downwards, all aspects of the organization too. Tom and I walk through some of the key principles for doing that well. I think it fits in great with this conversation. Episode 433 for that also recommended episode 612, how to solve the Toughest Problems. Wendy Smith was my guest on that episode. She's an expert on the both and oftentimes we think about problems and path forwards in the either or, I need to do this or I need to do that. I need to prioritize this or I need to prioritize that. There are times in in places of course for an either or, but most of the situations I find with the leaders I work with, there's an aspect of both and how do we go down this path and how do we do this other thing that's really complicated at the same time. Yes to employees and people and also yes to results and metrics. Both of those things important in most of our work. Episode 612 on how to thread that needle but not just how to thread it, how to actually embrace it and do way better at being able to think from the bigger picture. And then finally, I'd recommend episode 633, the Mindset, to help your organization grow. Tiffany Bova was my guest on that episode. And speaking of the either or, a lot of organizations tend to either tip toward thinking about mostly customers first and don't think about employees as much, or they think about employees a lot, but they don't think about customers as much. And she invites us to really think about again the both and of that that the best organizations are finding ways to prioritize both the employee experience and the customer experience. By doing both well, they feed each other episod 633 on details on where to start. All of those episodes you can find on the coaching4leaders.com website. And if you haven't before, set up your free membership@coaching4leaders.com it's going to give you the ability to find all of the past episodes searchable by topic and to track down exactly what you're looking for. In addition, one of the other benefits of free membership is access to my interview notes. JP and I put together a whole bunch of notes for this conversation. Several things we never got to in the actual dialogue but are inside of the notes. And if you set up your free membership, you'll have access to all the interview notes not only for this episode, but all the past episodes too. It's just one of the many benefits inside a free membership. Go over to coaching4leaders.com you'll find a place on the homepage there to set it up directly. Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroger Next week I am glad to welcome Charles Duhigg back to the show. We are going to be having a conversation on how to connect better with remote colleagues, something almost all of us are doing a lot more today than we were 510 years ago. Join me for that conversation with Charles. Have a great week and see you back on Monday.