Coaching for Leaders – Episode 771

Fixing Fairness in the Workplace, with Lily Zheng
Date: February 23, 2026
Host: Dave Stachowiak
Guest: Lily Zheng, Author of "Fixing Fairness: 4 Tenets to Transform Diversity Backlash into Progress for All"

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the complex, timely topic of fairness at work, centering on why so many diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives fall short and what leaders can do differently. Dave and Lily dive into the broad public consensus supporting diversity, the failures of traditional DEI fixes, and a systems-driven approach to achieving true fairness. They cover the importance of understanding organizational environments, rallying stakeholders, designing interventions intelligently, and truly involving people in the change process.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Surprising Consensus on Diversity (02:41)

• Despite highly politicized media narratives, a supermajority of Americans (82%) believe diversity is good for the country.
• Lily Zheng:

  “Basically, the super majority of people in this country believe that diversity is a good thing… almost everybody believes that diversity is better for this country. And I find that extremely hopeful in these really tense, really politicized times that we find ourselves in.” (04:38)

[00:00 – 05:25]

• Many assume the country is divided on diversity, but research shows both reality and the perceptions of others’ opinions are out of sync. People underestimate how widely diversity is valued.

2. Why Traditional DEI Approaches Fail (06:18)

• Common approaches (one-off training, guest speakers, “food, flags, and fun” events) often have little impact.
• The problem? Treating DEI as a box-ticking exercise, not as meaningful change targeting specific outcomes.
• Smart organizations focus on systemic levers—just as they would when setting sales or business targets.
• Lily Zheng:

  “If you're trying to get your sales team to make more sales, the first thing you do is not hold a webinar and pay a bunch of money for a speaker to talk about how much they care about sales, right? That's completely backwards.” (07:20)

3. The Power of Systems and Environment (10:17)

• Real change isn’t about molding people, but about shaping systems and organizational environments.
• Metaphor: “People are not like clay, they are like water”—they fill the shape of the container (the organizational system) they’re placed in.
• Leaders should ask: What behaviors does our system incentivize? What’s the default culture?
• Lily Zheng:

  “If our environment is fair, people will find themselves acting fair. If our environment is cutthroat, people will find themselves acting cutthroat.” (11:14)

[10:17 – 13:18]

• Use tools like culture surveys, interviews, even network analysis of communication tools to understand the actual environment and its effects.

4. Facing the ‘Fear of Finding Out’ (14:36)

• Many leaders avoid truly diagnosing fairness problems, often out of fear they’ll uncover uncomfortable realities.
• Lily Zheng:

  “Term that I like to use is, is fofo: fear of finding out. And I see it all the time in this work…” (14:42)

[14:36 – 16:05]

• Courage is needed to ask the hard questions, even if answers are daunting.

5. Don’t Skip to Solutions: The Importance of ‘Rallying’ (16:44)

• Before solving, align the organization on why the problem matters—build a coalition and a compelling narrative.

• Change requires “unfreezing” entrenched mindsets and habits; a shared understanding of why the status quo is unacceptable is critical.

• Lily Zheng:

  “You have to do that work to bring people together, to make them mad enough or upset enough to actually change the status quo. Because it takes a lot of energy to change the status quo.” (19:07)

• Use STORY, not just numbers, to get buy-in.

• Lily Zheng:

  “Turnover isn't just this clinical term. It means we lose the people that matter most, that do the best work, that connect us, that make us be our best selves.” (19:51)

6. Intelligent, Systems-Based Design (22:37)

• Don’t “push hard”; push “smart.”
• Sometimes the biggest impact comes from small system tweaks, not huge training blitzes.
• Example: Standardized HR processes can dramatically reduce discrimination, more so than multimillion-dollar training.
• Lily Zheng:

  “What gets a lot less attention is whether very small tweaks in the design of an environment might actually make a much, much bigger difference than these wide scale, extremely expensive, tailored approaches that reach one heart and mind at a time.” (23:54)

[22:37 – 26:26]

• Find leverage points in the system—sometimes a small, well-placed nudge can shift the whole environment.

7. Genuine Involvement: The IKEA Effect (27:00)

• Engage employees in creating solutions (not token listening, but real participation).
• The "IKEA effect": People value and support solutions they helped build—even if the outcome isn’t exactly what they’d have chosen alone.
• Lily Zheng:

  “When people feel like they had a part to play… they find themselves much, much happier with it, even if that final decision…is not exactly what they would have done on their own.” (27:40)

8. Raising Standards and Readiness for Change (29:50)

• Many organizations reach out for DEI help but aren’t ready for the real, sometimes uncomfortable work—it’s better to pause and get truly committed.
• Leaders should meet the same rigor on fairness issues as for any business challenge.

9. Learning, Unlearning, and Evolving (31:18)

• Lily describes how emerging research sometimes forces us to rethink best practices. Example: Removing demographic info from resumes, once considered a gold standard, may actually unintentionally increase discrimination.
• Lily Zheng:

  “People's identities, we can't just eliminate consideration of them because our identities make us who we are. Our identities impact our career trajectory, our life trajectory.” (33:29)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On hidden consensus:

  “Almost everybody believes that diversity is better for this country. And I find that extremely hopeful...”
  —Lily Zheng (04:38)

• On misguided DEI fixes:

  “Let’s just navel gaze...[then] ask ourselves in six months why nothing changed and act surprised.”
  —Lily Zheng (07:51)

• On the IKEA effect:

  “You build that [furniture] with your own blood, sweat, and tears and probably messed it up twice...When people feel like they had a part to play…they find themselves much, much happier with it, even if that final decision…is not exactly what they would have done on their own.”
  —Lily Zheng (27:36)

• On changing minds:

  “New research that’s come out in the last five years actually suggests that...when you do [scrubbing demographic resume info], that actually might increase discrimination...”
  —Lily Zheng (32:12)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:41 – The surprising 82% consensus on valuing diversity
• 06:18 – Why most DEI initiatives fail: treating the work as a quick fix
• 10:17 – The power of systems over individuals; “people are like water”
• 14:36 – FOFO: Fear of finding out, and why leaders avoid deep diagnosis
• 16:44 – Aligning the organization: rallying stakeholders and using story
• 22:37 – The importance of smart, systemic design vs. “push hard”
• 27:00 – The IKEA Effect and the power of participatory design
• 31:18 – Learning and unlearning: changing minds with new research

Takeaways for Listeners

• Don’t confuse intentions with outcomes—systematic, rigorous approaches produce lasting change.
• Diagnose honestly—it takes courage to ask hard questions and listen to tough answers.
• Align people with powerful stories and shared truths before launching solutions.
• Target system tweaks and levers—big expensive efforts aren’t always the answer.
• Build solutions with people—real involvement fosters trust, buy-in, and sustainability.
• Stay curious and flexible—best practices in fairness and inclusion will evolve.

This summary captures the key themes, actionable insights, and standout moments from the conversation. For leaders aiming to make their workplaces fairer, the episode sparks both hope and a call to do the challenging, substantive work necessary for real progress.