← Coaching for Leaders
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- [00:06]
A
Hey, it's Dave from Coaching for Leaders. Today I'm sharing a chat about how to move from command and control to serve and support. I talked recently with one of our academy graduates, Marisol Baio, to talk about what she did to make this shift. Here's our chat. I'm here today talking with one of our Academy alums, Marisol Baio. She is the executive director of the Housing Narrative Lab. Marisol, so wonderful to talk with you today. Welcome.
- [00:37]
B
Thank you so much, Steve. I am so excited and honored to be here with you. Truly. I never thought I'd be joining you on an episode of the show. So excited to be here.
- [00:50]
A
Well, the feeling is mutual. I've been looking forward to our conversation so much because of all the things that you have done and in your own work and in your own leadership, and of course, just as importantly, if not more so, the work you're doing in the community and for the world. And to that point, I love if maybe we could start this conversation by you saying a little bit about just your role and the work that the Housing Narrative Lab does because it's so powerful. Could you share a bit about it?
- [01:22]
B
Yeah. Thank you, Dave. So I am a former journalist turned strategic communicator, turned narrative strategist and researcher turned executive director. And as executive director, I lead the Housing Narrative Lab. And we are a research driven organization that works to build public understanding and support for the housing solutions that make our communities safe, healthy and thriving. All the things that we want in our communities and in the neighborhoods where we live. And we combine narrative research with people focused storytelling. We translate our narrative insights into actionable guidance, and we create and share stories across media and pop culture.
- [02:13]
A
Thank you so much for the work that you and your team are doing. As I think most people would appreciate. It's such an important need in the world, especially right now, with all the uncertainty and in government and funding in so many places. And advancing that narrative narrative has become so much more critical in the last year or two. And I'm so grateful for you and your team and all the work that you do.
- [02:38]
B
Thank you, Dave. Thank you. I really appreciate that. We're working hard at doing this work.
- [02:43]
A
Yeah, you are. And. And maybe that's even a lead into how you stumbled across across the podcast, because you found the podcast at one point. Do you recall how you came across it? Yes.
- [02:54]
B
So the first thing I'll say is that I love podcasts. I'm one of those folks, right. I listen to podcasts for news, for stories, to Learn about birds, to practice my Spanish, and. And I was in this moment where I really wanted to and needed to, to think about how I was going to be a stronger leader. And I recognized that, but I didn't know exactly what that meant for me. And so of course, I turned to podcasts, and I came across your podcast and really specifically came across an episode that you had with Marshall Goldsmith. And what I will tell you is, and you have probably heard this a million gajillion times, but that episode was a leadership class, a framework for leadership in 40 minutes or less. And it was so powerful. There were so many lessons there that applied directly to both where I was and who I was as a leader and where I was at that specific moment in time. Everything from what you both identified as the being the achiever and then becoming a leader, the idea of winning too much. There were. There was so much packed in that episode, and it was from there then I started listening to so many other episodes. And shortly thereafter, you were launching a new Academy class. And so that was how I stumbled on the Academy. It was kind of kismet because I listened to a series of your episodes of the episodes. And then within. I don't. I don't even remember, within the month, you were launching a new Academy plus.
- [04:43]
A
Oh. And that's what. That's how you and I got connected then. And what is it that had you decide to apply and what did you hope to get from the Academy?
- [04:53]
B
So, you know, I mentioned that I wanted. I was thinking about wanting to be a stronger leader and what, what that meant, Right. I mean, so first thinking about what is a leader, right? And. And going from achiever to leader, going from liking to win. Right. So that even applied to where I was at that moment. How am I going to be an achiever as an executive director and an achiever as a leader? But the reality was, Dave, that I wasn't really sure what that meant. You know, I was leading this new organization and thinking about and trying to figure out how to develop a new culture for it. So we were this early organization, and we had to use a metaphor, we'd cleared 10,000ft and the seatbelt sign had come off, and we were still hitting clouds, right? And I wanted to figure out, how do I help navigate us through the clouds? How do I navigate different styles of work and communication in a small organization? How do I navigate us through big changes? But I didn't have a roadmap then, and I knew I needed to develop one, and I was developing it. As I went, I didn't really have a leadership mentor. And so I was looking for all of that, and I was looking for that on my own, and that was what I was looking for and hoping for in the academy. That was what I was looking to find in the academy. You and I have talked a lot about, or we've talked previously about that idea of, of mentors. And I will say that when I was a journalist, especially in my early days as a journalist, I. I had mentors who were journalists who helped me become a better writer and a better interviewer. But I will say once I became a manager and then later, certainly as an executive director, that was. That was not a thing that didn't exist. And I was looking to find something like that in the academy.
- [07:03]
A
You came in with thinking a lot about that. I think of that analogy of, like, the roadmap and figuring out, like, what that looks like. And one of the things you shared with me is that being a trusted leader and having that calm in the midst of a lot of chaotic things happening around you, which, of course, in the world, there's been a lot of that in the nonprofit world, especially in the last year or two. What did. Where did you hope to go with that as far as creating some more of that. That calm in the midst of chaos?
- [07:36]
B
The first thing I will say before we do anything else is I will say the academy was hard. I had this big picture, that idea of I wanted to be a leader, trusted by my team, someone who leads with curiosity and grace and calm, especially in. In and strategy, especially in chaos.
- [07:59]
A
But.
- [07:59]
B
But the academy was hard because I had this big vision, but I wasn't really sure what that meant in practice, what that meant tangibly, and that a lot of it was internal work. That was really about how I was. I was putting this into practice by being aware of myself and being aware of how, How I was showing up, what my strengths were. That was actually one of the great things we, we. One of the first exercises we did was looking at what our strengths was and, and leading through those strengths. And that was so helpful for me to identify the strengths. But I, I really needed to figure out how to put that in practice, because one of my strengths is context and big picture, and then the tangible, right. And making it so was where I really needed to, to kind of work through. But that was internal, and that's what made it. That was what made it so hard. And so the great thing about the academy is that the academy, through the work that we were doing, Wasn't about, you are going to be a great big trusted leader, all the things. Right. It was really, okay, well, how. What can you do in five minutes? What could be one practice? And. And that was a powerful thing. Right? So I remember one of the first, my very first focus area was about strengthening my relationship with our deputy director. You know, we are a small org, so we are the leadership team. And the strength of our relationship is really the foundation of the organization. It represents. It actually represents the organizational culture that we wanted to grow and develop. And so it meant working through what our roles were in our relationship and within the team, down to how we communicated with each other and provide feedback and receive feedback. And it was in all of those pieces where the academy really helps me to kind of practice and think those things through.
- [10:20]
A
I so appreciate you sharing that. And I've got two things I'm really curious about on that. One of them is I thank you for saying this was hard, because I, I. Boy, I sure wish. Marisol, I think both of us do. Like, there'd be a way to get better at shifting our behavior and become a better leader. And it not be hard. And none of us want to do something hard or struggle with something that doesn't have purpose behind it. That said, struggle and something being hard and pushing ourselves if there's purpose behind it to make us better. Yes to that. All day long, right? And, like, as long as we're making traction and we're moving on it. And you looked at this and said, hey, okay, this is hard. I've got to think through some stuff, and I've got to think through, first of all, me and how I think about myself. And your willingness to do that was huge. And you hit on something else that I think is really key in that a lot of us have that sense of, like, what we want it to look like, the big picture, the, you know, how we want to show up as a leader. And then we enter into our day and we think, well, okay, where do I start? Like, what's the practical actual beginning point of I'm going to walk into this next interaction, this next meeting, in your case, the next conversation with your deputy director, and thinking, like, all right, how do I get to this, like, two to three year thing? I'm thinking about it, where I want to go, and this long roadmap, and where do I actually begin with it? And so much of it comes down to starting small. And so the second thing I'm curious about is you. You were thinking about that. I remember you telling us about struggling with that and thinking about that. Where did you ultimately decide to start as far as just that small five minute practical thing that helped you to start moving in that direction?
- [12:08]
B
The first, first one was a variation of the conversation that you had with Marshall Goldsmith, which was the stop, breathe, and is it worth it? And I think I translated that first commitment and focus to be about pausing and listening right before I spoke. Right. I think there's a tendency that we have about wanting to add value and do a lot of the. What you call command and control. Right. All of those pieces of the leader jumping in. And for me, it was every conversation before I spoke, I was going to pause and just stop and breathe. I will just be totally frank. I did not do it 100% of the time. It did not work 100% of the time time. But I had a little post it note that I will tell you is still on my desk. It is this yellow post it note with light blue marker, and it says, stop, breathe, listen. And again, sometimes, you know, you jump in and you have to kind of remember. But that was, that was how I started, right? And I will say that for me, that was really valuable because one of the key things I learned from our cohort, we talked a lot about this, was that our whispers sound like yells and then our suggestions sound like orders, and whoo, is that real? And that is so true. But for someone who is a creative and a writer and someone who loves. Loves to brainstorm and riff, I had to learn to do that differently. And what I learned during so many of the conversations with the cohort and the work through my commitments and the focus areas, was really recognizing that my, my what I thought were brainstorms and rifts folks took to be orders. And that if I shifted or changed the brainstorm or the riff, they were stuck. Because now they thought, what is she talking about? She said, let's do this. Now she's saying, let's do that. But in my mind, I was just sort of like, let's just get some vibes. Let's get some juices flowing. And because of where I sat, folks were not recognizing that. And that was a great piece of the learning that came from the started with the stop, read, listen all the way through. The reason you have to do that is because when you open your mouth as the executive director or as the leader, folks are automatically taking whatever you say as an order. It sounds like a yell.
- [15:10]
A
Yeah, boy, it's. It's so true. And I've had so Many times I've seen that happen and I've written run into that myself, Marisol, and my work too. And I think, how interesting. First of all, could I say the thing I think you already know, but for everyone else, we, so many of us who listen to this show, me included, like, are very high achieving kind of folks and we want to, we set the bar high for ourselves, we have high expectations for others, but perhaps we have the highest expectations for ourselves. And we, we want to do something 100%. Like, when we commit to doing it and getting better, we want to do it 100%. And never in the entire time I've been doing this, either myself or anyone else, do we achieve 100% on anything. And it's a process, right? Like, it's like, okay, if I'm doing this 23% now and I get to the place where I'm doing it 55%, 62%, that's huge as far as progress. And you really leaned in on that. Like, just because you didn't get 100%, you really took the invitation to just start and try it out. And I think like, so cool that you did that. And the other thing that I think is really interesting from what you said, is you had this really wonderful and beautiful intention to show up and serve and support in this role in this emerging organization of like clearing the 10,000 foot level, the seatbelt signs coming off. Right, Like I'm thinking about that analogy. And yet, despite that great intention, the actual impact that people were experiencing was command and control because of how you were showing up to them in those conversations. And it's just like, it's such a reminder to me that sometimes that intent, that good intention we have shows up so differently for others, doesn't it?
- [16:58]
B
Oh, absolutely. And it actually, you know, one of the things that it has made me realize is a couple of things. First, again, because we are a smaller organization, I tend not to jump in anymore right away. I lead with a lot more questions than statements. And the other one, again, because we are an organization that is research driven and also creative, and we are a storytelling organization as well. It means that we brainstorm a lot. It means that we take risks, that we are trying new things. And if I jump in too soon or too early, it becomes, ah, that's what we're going to do and that's the direction we're going to move in. And it stops conversation a lot faster than I mean it to be. So I tend now to really kind of hang back and when I Do jump in. It's more. Tell me more. I'm curious about this. I still do the brainstorm because I need the br. I need other people to brainstorm. I love the process of brainstorming, but now I realize I have to do it maybe in smaller groups, maybe not the whole group as a whole. Or I really have to be really intentional to name, even just to name it. Let's brainstorm for a second. I'm wondering, what about xyz? And for me, I know things are working when I say, I wonder, what about xyz? And someone on my team says, yeah, no, Marisol, how about this? I hear what you're saying, but can we think about this instead? And to me, that that means yay, right? Because we are creating the culture that I've been wanting to create all along, where we are really kind of. It's a. It's giving and taking and not that command and control. But it means that I've had to shift how I use my voice.
- [19:01]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. Marisol, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story with us. And more importantly, thank you so much for the work you and your team are doing to support so many people in our communities. I'm so grateful for both.
- [19:17]
B
Thank you so much, Dave. It's been such a pleasure and a delight to spend this time talking with you. Thank you.
- [19:25]
A
Likewise. A while back, I had Vanessa Bonds on the podcast, who's the author of the book you have More Influence Than youn Think. She made this point. A powerful person's whisper can sound more like a shout. A lot of us don't think about ourselves as powerful people, particularly because we often think about power as only a negative thing. But the reality is, for most people who listen to this podcast, since the vast majority of us lead or manage in some way, is that we do have power, at least in the venue where we lead. And that means that how we show up, even a small shift that might not seem like a big difference to us can make a massive difference to those we lead. One of our fellows, Jess Britt, reminded me recently that sometimes the meeting we've not been looking forward to being at is the one meeting where someone more junior in the organization has been meeting, prepping for for weeks, because it's the one chance that they've had recently to get interaction with senior leadership and to learn from them and maybe even have a chance to shine. It's why I'm so proud of Marisol for being so willing to examine the patterns that had worked so well in her career for so long, but now at the inflection point of being an executive director, we're going to require her to shift on just a bit. The need to make shifts almost always shows up at inflection points. Maybe it's taking on a big new leadership role, or it's preparing for an upcoming transition into a role, or maybe it's taking on a new team or an initiative, and sometimes it's after getting some feedback about what's not working anymore. It's doable to make those shifts by yourself, but it's so much easier and more successful with support the Coaching for Leaders Academy provides structured group coaching, all led personally by me, to help leaders thrive at key inflection points. The Academy is now open for applications and if you are at an inflection point right now, I'm inviting you to apply to join in with us. Go over to coaching4leaders.com Academy in order to do so. Applications are open now, but only until the end of the day on Friday, March 20, so be sure to visit before then. On that Academy page, you're going to find out more from our graduates. See the five steps of how the Academy works, and you can dig in on all the frequently asked questions of how things come together. The Coaching for Leaders Academy helps leaders thrive at key inflection points. Head over to coachingforleaders.com academy for more. And remember that applications are only open until Friday, March 20th. Thanks as always, for listening in and watch for the next episode coming this Monday.