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- [00:06]
A
Hey, It's Dave from Coaching 4 Leaders. Today I'm bringing you a quick chat about how to get better at really listening. I sat down recently with one of our academy graduates, Bill Mayo, to talk about what he did to begin listening better. Here's our conversation. I'm talking today with Bill Mayo. Bill is an alum of the Coaching for Leaders Academy and also a plant foreman in the natural gas business. And Bill, I'm so glad to have you here. Thanks for taking the time for this chat.
- [00:38]
B
Dave, thanks for allowing me to come on here and visit with you.
- [00:42]
A
I'm so looking forward to this conversation and just exploring some of the things that you've done, particularly around listening, because you've made so many really cool shifts in the last year on how you show up as a leader. Before we get into that, though, would you share with folks a bit of just who you are and a bit about your role in your organization?
- [01:04]
B
Sure, sure, Dave. So, like you said, I'm Bill Mayo. I'm the plant foreman for a natural gas company here in the East Texas area. We trade natural gas and send it throughout the homes here in the eastern part of the United States.
- [01:19]
A
Cool. You came across the podcast at some point in the not too distant past. How did you come across the podcast, do you recall?
- [01:29]
B
I do. So I had been through an interview process here at work. There was a potential promotion and I was not the successful candidate. But the vice president of our company was quick to give me some great feedback, which was I was lacking in leadership skills and the fact that I just didn't have a whole lot. I had had about five years in leadership and this role required more than that. So he offered to help me create a path to get my leadership skills up to where they need to be for future opportunities. And that led me to a few different training courses. Well, I really enjoyed the leadership training, so I got on Spotify and decided to look for more. The very first one that popped up was Coaching for Leaders, and I began listening to a lot of the episodes that you had already recorded and and posted on there. I listened to a good many of them, to be honest, but repeatedly I heard you talk about Coaching for Leaders, alumni, and this person and that person, and realized quickly that this would be very beneficial to me. And I think that's when I was able to reach out to you and we were able to get together.
- [02:42]
A
I remember you telling me shortly after we met that a chat I'd had with Brooks Bradford a while back had caught your attention and you decided to at some point apply for the academy. What did you hope to get from the academy when you were deciding to apply?
- [03:03]
B
To be honest, I felt like I needed improvement in every area. But the truth is I really didn't know what I was looking for. I think I was kind of looking on the context that our vice president said, man, you need more leadership skills. And I really didn't know how to define that or what that was entailing, to be honest. I, I, I just knew that I needed more training and this looked like a great spot to get it. And it turns out when we first signed up, I was very intimidated, thinking that I didn't really belong here. A lot of these people that are going to be on here got way more leadership training than I do, and I'm going to be able to learn from them, but I probably won't have much to offer. And I now feel like I was wrong about that. Like that the course really was a perfect fit for me. And I do feel like I added a little bit of value to, to our cohort.
- [03:54]
A
For sure you did in so many ways. And I'd love to get into that a bit more because I think there's, there's a bunch there that I, that I'm curious about. And first of all, just that, that feedback of like, hey, getting better at leadership, it's such a, I think it's, in a lot of ways it's a nebulous thing because leadership is such a broad topic. As we both know, listening to the show and all the different topics we hit, you decided at some point to zero in on listening. What is it that got you thinking about that in the context of leadership?
- [04:31]
B
I think initially you had us write down all the areas that we feel like we could improve as a leader, and that was one of the first ones that popped into my mind, probably because I needed the most help with that. I, I genuinely feel like before this course that I just, I listened just well enough to respond to people I really wasn't listening to understand. And once I was able to get, get dove into that to where I was literally understanding what they're saying, it really, it changed the entire conversation. The way, the way it was received from them, delivered and received from them, they, I could tell, like we made a better connection because they could tell I was listening.
- [05:12]
A
You and I have talked a lot about listening because it's a skill that so many of us want to get better at. I know I do. And yet it is often a really nebulous thing to get our heads around like, okay, I want to be a better listener. How do I actually do that in my next conversation or in tomorrow morning staff meeting or with my partner or with one of my kids? And I'm wondering when you decided to take this on and actually get better at listening, what did you do that was different and just how you showed up in your actions and I'm curious what that looked like.
- [05:57]
B
So I initially thought that I just need to listen to just what my people are saying. But what I realized through this commitment because one of the things that I took on was how will I know it's working? Well, the only way to know it's working is to ask more questions, which it is actually an act of better listening because you're asking follow up questions to ensure that you understood what they were saying. But then it also gives them an opportunity to, to dive in just a little deeper and, and give you a better understanding. So it just, it just parlays, it just get so much better the deeper you get. And a lot of times they're just soft questions like you don't have to ask some game changing question. Just, just being engaged allows people to know that you're listening and they'll give you way more when they feel like you're, they got buy in then if you're just talking or responding rather.
- [06:53]
A
Do you recall some of those softer questions that you started asking, that second or third question that you started to do a bit more?
- [07:01]
B
I'll tell you one of them. I stole from you, Dave. And that is, that's interesting. Tell me more about that. Ah, like when they would touch on a topic, just any topic, and it doesn't matter that that question is so broad, but it, it helps people to open up. Like oh yeah, I also forgot to tell you about this, but this is part of that as well. That's interesting. Tell me more about that is probably one of my favorites.
- [07:26]
A
And in the moment when you were successful at asking that, that follow up question, the tell me more, making that open invitation, what is it that worked that actually triggered reminded you to do that?
- [07:40]
B
I would honestly say that I tried to do it in every conversation that I had. And it may not be that question, it might be just some random question, but I always tried to ask a follow up question and sometimes two or three because sometimes you don't quite get enough information to really make a decision on things. So you need to, you need to know more information. So the more questions you can ask, obviously the better informed you are. But it Just seemed like the more questions you ask, the more people want to open up. I think that was one thing that you and I talked about during the Academy is people want to talk, people want to tell you what's going on, but you have to give them the opportunity. And by opening that door and it, it, it really, it opens a floodgate. It's crazy how, how much better the connection is with humans when you just allow them to, to tell you their point of view.
- [08:35]
A
I, I've noticed the same thing because I've, I've done it better in my career as I've gone on, but I've also really messed it up a whole lot in my life and my career. And it is so interesting to me. Bill, and you've had this experience too, like how much more people say when they, when they've gotten a second or third question from someone that they don't say after the first question, even if the first question is open ended and very genuine. Oftentimes people will say something very, I don't know, very, very trite or kind of transactional. And I find myself doing the same thing too, by the way. When people like ask me just a single question, I'll off, I find myself like only responding with a little bit. And there's something just really powerful and different about asking a second or third question of people realizing like, oh, they really want to know, they really care about what it is that I'm feeling, I'm thinking about, I'm worried about, I'm struggling with. And it just, it just makes all the difference, doesn't it?
- [09:44]
B
It really does. And I think that for me at least just to come and ask a question like to, let's say my wife or my daughter or really anybody for that matter, you tend to get just very vanilla answers. Yes, no, even if it's open ended, sometimes you'll just get a very vanilla answer versus if you listen to what they're talking about, which that's not always the case, but in most cases, whatever people are talking about, that's what they want to talk about. And so if you'll ask questions about that, that thing in particular, or tell me more about that, that's, that's interesting. Tell me more what people really want to open up, it seems like, and if you just give them the opportunity and then listen and maybe ask a follow up question on that, it's, it's really, it's very impressive what it, what it does, it was so powerful.
- [10:32]
A
You mentioned the word commitment a bit ago and one of the things that we do in the academy is we all take on 60 day commitments and work on something very specifically for 60 days. You of course chose listening as one of your commitments and being really intentional at least once a day. But as you mentioned, sometimes more of asking that second or third question and you were really consistent on doing this as you did this more over a few weeks. What did you notice with the folks you're working with as far as how they responded?
- [11:11]
B
To be honest, I could not believe how it transformed my relationships with the guys. Matter of fact, I noticed. I noticed it making such a difference in me just not talking, like ask a question and then be quiet. And then maybe a follow up question and be quiet, take notes, write things down, ask questions that would pertain to what they just said, meaning make sure you understood exactly what they meant. I genuinely feel like I was getting some feedback before this commitment on being a bit of a micromanager because I would, I would ask enough questions to know what was going on. But when they would begin to tell me their version of it, I would be quick to tell them, here's what you need to do. And after this listening commitment, I got a lot better at asking better questions and allowing them to speak fully all the way out and use that information in a better light. In the sense that my guys genuinely noticed the difference and was, was asking questions. I mean, they even made the comment on several times that, well, you, we can tell you've really made a change and really was just listening. That's all I was doing different, was just trying to be a better listener and ask better questions.
- [12:32]
A
One thing you told me previously was that it was interesting in doing this that you noticed times you were wrong more so early on that by asking the follow up questions it shifted that dynamic a bit.
- [12:48]
B
No doubt about it. So in a lot of cases, I would be very quick to make a snap decision. A plant's doing this or this is happening or that's happening. Snap decision. I've seen this before. This is what's going on. And by asking questions and listening better, I would say probably half of the time it wasn't what I initially thought at all. It was something totally different. And once you had all the information, it was, it was obvious and they knew it too. But you know, if you're the boss and you start barking at them, you know, you need to do this, you need to do that, Guys will do it, but they're not, they're not excited about it, they're not engaged about it. But by asking questions and getting the full story, it seems like you're just able to make better, better decisions, better choices. But more than anything, like you're, you're getting everybody engaged and everybody wants to, to do their best and when you allow them to be their best, it's just, jeez, it just goes so much better.
- [13:41]
A
Bill, you know this, but for everyone else's benefit. One of the practices that we have in our academy conversations is whenever we're talking about a situation, either something that one of us is struggling with currently in one of our roles, or an opportunity, something we could do better. And we're, we're, we're dialoguing about that. We have a rule that the first 15, 20 minutes of that conversation, of a 30 minute conversation, no one's allowed to give any advice. The only thing we can do is ask questions. And the reason I share that is because it's, it's fascinating to me. Whenever we go into those conversations, I notice in myself that the first minute or two of the conversation, like depending on what said and what initially the person presents as a situation, that my first inclination of how they might solve the problem or what advice I'd give is more than half the time it's completely wrong. Like once we get into the conversation in more detail and I think to myself, wow, without the practice of, because we have it as a structured practice to not be allowed to give any advice early on, I think, like, how many times I've been so wrong in my career or so unbelievably unhelpful to someone. Like earlier on, before we had that as a practice on doing something, because I didn't stop to really understand the situation. And to your point, it's not like it takes a lot of time, it takes another three, four, five minutes maybe at most. But it's asking that second or third question, you end up hearing so many things you didn't hear and it gets you going down a path that's actually much more helpful to the person.
- [15:26]
B
It really is. And one thing that I've noticed by asking the, by repeating what they tell me. So a lot of times when someone asks, acquired, maybe they're just making a statement and I say back to them, so you said this or this or this. This is, that's interesting. Could you tell me more about that? It, it really helps me sort and label, if you will, what, what we're really dealing with and I think just gives me a better understanding. And like you said, it enables you to really and truly understand what they're saying. You're, you're not just listening to respond to them. You're. You're really listening to fully understand what they're talking about.
- [16:03]
A
We all come into the academy through the professional lens, of course, and trying to do a better job at leading, showing up well for our teams and our colleagues. And a lot of times it also transitions to our personal lives too. And one of the things you've shared with me is that working on this commitment to be a better listener helped a bunch in the workplace. It also helped at home too.
- [16:28]
B
It did. And you know, when I started this to bring it home, I knew that I needed to. Sometimes you get totally engrossed in work and I'm not all the way fully engaged. Sometimes when I get home, I'm still thinking about this or that or answering the phone or checking my email or whatever. And I don't think I was engaged at home as I needed to be. So I began doing it with my wife, trying to listen better to her and ask more questions and get, get the whole story. But, and that helped, of course. But what I really noticed was with my daughter, she's 17 years old, great student, great, great kid. But literally, I would say 90% of the time when she would start telling me about something that was going on, I was real quick to want to solve this problem for her. Well, here what I would do is this or that or whatever. And what I realized is she would just shut down when I would do that and you know, grunt and just give you one word answers. Yeah, no, it was okay. But by diving in and asking follow up questions and really listening to what she had to say, it truly improved our relationship as well.
- [17:40]
A
I'm so glad. And it just, it reminds me so much about how we're all in different places in our lives. We have so many different venues, so many of us want to influence Wellen professionally and personally. And it all comes down to showing up and being human. Right. And demonstrating to people that they matter because they do. But also putting the actions and the behaviors behind that genuinely so that we really show people that they matter in every aspect of life. And you did that so consistently, Bill, in so many of your interactions with your team and at home and like, so many great things. I mean, I think, think about all the like, great results you've all had with uptime and your plant and just like, because of the good communication happening, it's, it's really impressive and I'm so proud of you for just all you did on the consistency of making this happen.
- [18:30]
B
Well, I. I genuinely appreciate that, Dave. And you, you get a little bit of that credit because definitely the. The things that you taught me during this course were just invaluable and really got me going down the right track.
- [18:45]
A
You know, I often ask people what they've changed their minds on going through this experience, working on listening, being intentional about it, spending the time with us in the academy. I'm curious what, if anything, you've changed your mind on.
- [18:59]
B
I think when. When I signed up for this class, I literally had the mindset that I'm going to be learning so much from these executives and presidents and vice presidents, CEOs, and I'm probably not going to add much value to the course. And I think what I changed my mind on is leadership is leadership. Leadership is life. And we all have different life experiences. We all have different levels of leadership experience. And what I realized is we all add value. It's all about whether you're willing to accept it for face value, meaning look at it through their lens. Everybody in our cohort taught me something. A few of them maybe taught me more than others, but I definitely think I learned something, several things from everybody that was in our cohort. So I changed my mind on that. I think this course is for anybody. I think anybody can improve going through this course.
- [19:54]
A
It is so interesting how when it comes down to the core aspects of leadership, you know, every context is different, every organization is different, every industry is different, of course, but we come down to the core human stuff. How many things become so similar and how we all can learn to get better. And Bill, you're a great inspiration to all of us on doing that. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us and inspiring us a bit to listen better today. I so appreciate it.
- [20:20]
B
Well, Dave, I appreciate you having me on here today.
- [20:24]
A
I've had the privilege now for over a decade to work with leaders who are at the kind of inflection point that Bill was at, having gotten feedback that there were some things to improve on, but not necessarily knowing where to start. Listening is a very common example of this. It is not news to anyone that leaders need to listen well. And most everyone I know who cares anything about doing good work wants to listen better. The challenge is tactically what to do to improve, not because it's not possible, but because we often don't know where to start, especially with anything related to people skills. Knowing where to begin can seem really nebulous. That's why when I work with leaders in our academy. We get clear at the start on three focus areas that are important to each leader and then we take them one at a time and zero in on small, consistent actions to get traction along with the support of peer leaders and of course me. That's what Bill did and as you heard, small consistent actions that not only helped it work but but helped him listen better with his family too. If you're also at an inflection point right now, I'm inviting you to consider applying for the Coaching for Leaders Academy. We are opening applications for a brief window on Friday, March 13th until the following week. On Friday, March 20th. Go over to Coaching for Leaders Academy to discover more. If you get to that link before we open applications on the 13th, you will also see a place where you can request a and early application from us and you'll find a lot more detail there on that page on the structure of the academy, why it works, and of course how to apply the Coaching for Leaders Academy helps leaders thrive at key inflection points. Head over to coaching4leaders.com academy for more and remember that applications will only be open until Friday, March 20th. Thanks as always for listening in and watch for the next regular episode this coming Monday.