Ask Muriel Anything: Productivity, Layoffs, and Visibility

Summary

Coaching Real Leaders – “Ask Muriel Anything: Productivity, Layoffs, and Visibility”

Podcast: Coaching Real Leaders
Host: Muriel Wilkins (with producer/co-host Mary)
Date: May 11, 2026
Episode Theme:
This “Ask Muriel Anything” episode dives into tricky real-life leadership scenarios, focusing on: driving culture change in rigid organizations, motivating teams after layoffs, balancing productivity with leadership development, and reflecting on patterns behind leaving jobs out of frustration. Muriel offers candid, practical coaching advice with real talk, frameworks, and self-reflection prompts meant for high-performing leaders facing career and workplace crossroads.

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Key Segment Summaries

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1. Culture Change: Tackling Rigid Org Charts & Siloed Teams

Timestamp: 01:24–08:39

Main Discussion Points:

• Desire for change vs. scope of influence:
  Muriel stresses that not every role is positioned to change an entire culture, especially after just one year at a company. Before naming something a culture problem, leaders must assess their capacity and platform for influence.

  “A culture change is a collective set of behaviors and beliefs, and that takes some time.” – Muriel, 01:57

• Investigate the “why” behind rigidity:

  • Leaders should first determine what underlying reasons may cause silos or rigidities (institutional knowledge, history, etc.).
  • Don’t rush to judgment; some structures might have valid purposes.

• Assess others’ motivation for change:

  • Change is unlikely if people don’t see personal value or improvement.
  • “If there’s no skin in the game, there’s no motivation to actually change.” – Muriel, 03:56

• Be the model, not the mandate:

  • Demonstrate the benefits of collaboration and agility within your own sphere.
  • Behavior change starts with positive individual examples.

• The timing of initiating culture change:

  • After a year, consider how much credibility and relationship capital you’ve built.
  • Understand whether your mandate is to adapt vs. overhaul.

• Power vs. status:
  Muriel references Alison Fragale’s ideas to highlight that status—credibility, trust, relationships—is more effective than hierarchical power for driving influence.

  “Most people seek power…what really moves the needle is status.” – Muriel, 07:16

Notable Quotes:

• “Start with you modeling it rather than waiting or expecting them to change first or to make that shift.” – Muriel, 05:13
• “Status…is based on credibility and connection…Credibility and relationships and trust.” – Muriel, 08:11

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2. Navigating Motivation After Layoffs

Timestamp: 08:40–18:01

Main Discussion Points:

• The emotional aftermath of layoffs:
  Both leaders and teams often undergo a grieving process after major organizational change—which shouldn’t be ignored or swept aside.

  “Please don’t get up at the town hall and say business as usual, because it’s not usual.” – Muriel, 11:04

• Shifting from fear-based to opportunity-based mindset:

  • Avoid coupling the new strategy’s success purely to preventing future layoffs—this leads to fear-driven, risk-averse behavior and stifles innovation.
  • Leaders should decouple past layoffs and focus on what can be gained with the new strategy.

• The real meaning of motivation:
  Motivation = having a “motive” to act. The leader’s job is to generate and articulate a compelling new “why” for the team’s efforts moving forward.

• Managing up:

  • Leaders must evaluate the best way—and the appetite—for communicating team morale concerns up the chain.
  • Use the framework: What, So What, Now What (from Matt Abrahams): state the issue, its relevance to the boss/company, and suggest solutions or requests.

  “If you’re going to talk to your manager, communicate this…with potential solutions, what is your ask?” – Muriel, 17:40

Notable Quotes:

• “When we go in with a playing not to lose attitude, we are not playing up to our full potential.… We are playing defensively. We are playing out of fear, which is constricting and rigid.” – Muriel, 12:55
• “What is going to be our why to enable us to move forward with this? Not to forget what’s happened…but to say, yes, we have to honor that, and what is our why for immersing ourselves in this new strategy?” – Muriel, 13:19

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3. Productivity vs. People Development: Making Space for Leadership

Timestamp: 23:27–30:08

Main Discussion Points:

• False tradeoff between productivity and development:
  Muriel challenges the assumption that developing people is a “time suck” or comes at the cost of productivity.

  “There are many things in the workplace…that we say we value but are not at their best when they are done efficiently.” – Muriel, 25:16

• Productivity ≠ Efficiency:

  • Things that take time (like developing others) can be highly productive if they create lasting value.

• How to actually develop people…without derailing your own work:

  1. Just-in-time Development: Use real moments to coach and develop rather than adding extra to the calendar.
  2. Opportunistic Delegation: Let team members lead pieces of work already scheduled (e.g., presenting at meetings).
  3. Systems and structure:
     • Establish regular touchpoints like quarterly development talks, but systematize them for efficiency.
     • Provide structure for these interactions so they’re focused and actionable.

• Calendar and Values Check:
  Where you spend your time (and energy) reflects what you genuinely value as a leader.

Notable Quotes:

• “We tend to equate how much time something takes us with determining whether it’s productive.… But something that seems inefficient might be where the most value is created.” – Muriel, 25:13
• “If you can understand that…the value you bring to the table as a leader…is also developing people…it’s part of my job description as much as doing the deliverables.” – Muriel, 28:45

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4. Leaving Jobs on Impulse: Is It Me or the Company?

Timestamp: 30:15–39:51

Main Discussion Points:

• Self-reflection as a starting point:
  Acknowledge and examine your own recurring patterns before attributing every job departure to external factors.

  “What I love…is that she’s even taking the time to say, is it me? So many people don’t do that.” – Muriel, 31:02

• Pattern Recognition:

  • Inventory past situations: what were the specific triggers or thresholds that prompted you to quit?
  • Try to spot recurring conditions or traits.

• Running from vs. running to:

  • Are you leaving jobs to escape something negative, or moving toward a positive opportunity that better aligns with your values?

• What is your “why” for working?:

  • Clarify what work means for you and what you hope to gain or accomplish through your career.

• The Possibility of Staying:

  • Not every difficult job demands quitting; sometimes, enduring a tough phase delivers growth or a changed situation.
  • Expand your “growth zone” by sometimes staying in adversity instead of always defaulting to exit.

Notable Quotes:

• “Ask: are you moving towards something or are you running away from something?” – Muriel, 34:41
• “Where there’s a will, there’s a way.… If it means you have to make tradeoffs elsewhere, then make tradeoffs elsewhere.” – Muriel, 28:45
• “Ultimately, you want…convergence between what you value, what you want, what you need, and what the organization has to offer.” – Muriel, 35:54
• “Maybe there’s a lesson there in being patient in the face of adversity.… What could you learn from staying?” – Muriel, 39:31

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Status is actually what gets you ahead…being able to have influence within an organization regardless of where you sit.”
  — Muriel, 07:16
• “Please don’t get up there and say ‘business as usual,’ because it’s not usual.”
  — Muriel, 11:04
• “Motivation is a motive to act.… What I’m not hearing is the motive.”
  — Muriel, 13:19
• “Look at your calendar. The time that you put in reflects what you value…. Where you give your energy demonstrates what you value.”
  — Muriel, 28:45
• “Am I the problem? Hi, me, am I the problem? Right? Because so many people don’t do that…. They automatically go, ‘it’s the place.’”
  — Muriel, 31:04

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Practical Frameworks & Takeaways

• Be the change you wish to see: Model desired cultural behaviors, don’t wait for formal permission.
• Don’t play not to lose: Fear-based leadership paralyzes teams and reduces innovation—focus forward on the benefits and opportunities.
• “What, So What, Now What” for managing up: When surfacing issues to management, state the facts, why it matters, and a recommended path forward.
• Audit your patterns: If you keep leaving jobs, review the specifics that led you to quit; look for recurring themes and how you contributed.
• Developing others is part of the job: Embed people development into routines, seek efficiency through structure, and don’t treat it as a “nice to have.”

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:24] — Culture change and overcoming rigidity in organizations
• [08:40] — Motivating yourself and team post-layoffs
• [23:27] — Balancing productivity with team development
• [30:15] — Self-examination around quitting jobs “on impulse” and reframing career patterns

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Tone Reflection

Muriel brings empathy, straight talk, and a coaching mindset—breaking down complex leadership dilemmas into actionable insights while respecting the messiness of real organizational life. Mary interjects relatable scenarios and offers clarifying context, keeping the conversation conversational and grounded in lived experience.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In:

This episode of “Coaching Real Leaders” is a masterclass in practical leadership coaching. Whether you’re feeling stuck in silos, navigating a post-layoff environment, wrestling with doing vs. leading, or rethinking your own career patterns, Muriel Wilkins offers frameworks and real-world wisdom to help you reflect and move forward with intention.

Transcript

[Muriel Wilkins]

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[Muriel Wilkins]

Hi, I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Ask Muriel Anything from Coaching Real Leaders. In these episodes, my producer Mary and sometimes some special guests and friends will help me field questions that have come in from the Coaching Real Leaders community or that bubble up in my client work. No question is too small or too large to chew. So let's get started.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

All right, Muriel, I have some good ones for you today. This first one we are going to lay up is a question about org charts, but it actually seems like it's kind of more about bureaucracy and culture change. So this leader reached out. She's been at her company for a little over a year. She's noticed a lot of initiatives get stalled because of people being really rigid with their roles and their teams, that there's not a lot of flexibility. So sort of people, people working in silos, maybe she'd like to change that culture, but she isn't really sure how, especially for those who aren't her direct reports.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Mm. Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. I think a lot of times we observe a certain dynamic that's happening and then not only do we observe it happening kind of at a micro level, whether it's on our team or in meetings, but then sometimes we sort of lift up and say it's a culture problem. Right. And that can be really tricky because not every role is equipped to actually change the culture. And so for this individual, I'm not sure what the context is around their role. But one of the first questions I would have is what type of capacity do you have? What type of plot platform do you have or scope do you have that enables you to actually help shift the culture? Because what you certainly can't do is mandate a culture change, especially after one year Right. Unless you have the power and status in an organization to do that. But even then, you can never mandate a culture change. Right. A culture change is a collective set of behaviors and beliefs, and that takes some time. So there's a couple of things that I would suggest here. I think first is understanding what is actually contributing to what this individual is experiencing, because there's an attribution around rigidity, and we don't know what's actually contributing to that. Is the rigidity there, because there's some institutional knowledge or history that actually reinforces or explains why people might be sticking to particular ways of doing things, or if it's siloed, maybe why there are silos. So understanding the why and understanding the purpose behind it before kind of naming it as something that shouldn't exist is important here.

Okay.

And I would encourage this individual to take a look at that. The second is really looking at, do the folks who are impacted by this, do they actually want to change it? If this is serving them in a way and they don't kind of see how their lives would be better or the work that they're doing would be better? Basically, if there's no skin in the game, there's no motivation to actually change. So making an assessment around that is actually really helpful, I think. You know, lastly, it's, you know, I am a believer in be the change that you want to see in the world. Right. So if. If indeed she believes that collaboration would lead to better outcomes or being able to work in different ways would lead to better outcomes, then I would encourage her to sort of demonstrate that. Demonstrate the collaboration that you want to see. Because here's the thing, right? Behavior shift, culture shift, when it is associated with positive experiences. So if she can demonstrate that, look, if we actually work beyond our boxes, if we work with more agility, if we work in this different way that she envisions, there's actually a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The end of the rainbow looks much better than the way it looks now. Then she increases the chances of that change happening. So part of it is like, let's start with you modeling it rather than waiting or expecting them to change first or to make that shift. So, yeah, but I think there's a lot of kind of kicking the tire around the assumptions first before taking action around all this.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah, I definitely empathize with this. I think when I heard this question, I'm sort of like, oh, she's a fixer, right? Like, she. She sees like, oh, we could be so Much more innovative if I could just get these people to approve things faster. Right. And I. I totally empathize with that. I think the timing thing is also sort of interesting. A year is really not that long to have been an organization. And I always think about this, you know, when new leaders come into orgasm that I've worked in of like, the period, you know, we talk about the first 90 days, the period in which you're observing, and then the period in which you want to sort of start enacting change to sor. Show your impact and show that you're. You have new ideas and you want to inject new energy. And like, when the right timing for that is, do you miss a window if you sort of, like, let it go too long? So that's also what came up for me, is just a little bit of, is she too eagerly, too soon trying to change the culture, or is this sort of the right moment now that she's been there for a year?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, exactly. And you know what? Again, a big, big, big assumption here or variable that's unclear to me is, is your mandate coming in to change the culture, or is there an expectation that, no, this is the culture. We're asking you to come in here and be successful in the culture that you're in. And maybe it's a. Both and. Right. In which case you need to pace that. Like, what do I need to do to gain the credibility and build the relationships so that I can be an ambassador, if you will, or an advocate for changing the culture that has so much variability based on the status within, you know, your organization or the power you have your organization. You know, Allison Fragile, who wrote Likable, Badass Talk. I love that I can say that because it's the real title of the book, you know, talks about the difference

between having power and status.

And status is actually what gets you ahead. Right. Not ahead just from a career standpoint, but being able to have influence within an organization regardless of where you sit, from a hierarchical power standpoint. So most people seek power, whereas in reality, you know, yes, that is nice. And, you know, it does make your life a little easier from an organizational standpoint. And actually what really moves the needle is status. So I would have a question around if this person does want to have an impact of changing the culture. A start with you, then look at kind of maybe your team, then think about the organization. But the more status you have, the more you're going to be able to take it beyond you.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah, yeah. It's almost like she came In. And she sees the way she can contribute as like, oh, this is easy fix. I just have to convince people to do this. But she hasn't necessarily worked on the status building, maybe.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right. And the status is not, you know, status in the way that we typically think of it. Like, oh, yeah, I'm like, you know, the best thing in the world. That's not what we're thinking here. Right. We're not thinking like brand name. We're actually are thinking a little bit about personal brand, which is based on credibility and connection. You know, credibility and relationships and trust. Exactly. So being able to think about, you know, has she built those things that then gives her the currency to be able to make the types of moves that she's thinking about.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Absolutely.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. All right.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Well, this next one is. There's a little bit of culture at play here, too, I think. So obviously, layoffs are really tough. It's probably something a lot of people are dealing with. And it's a little bit about something we've talked a little bit on this show before, which is sort of, you know, the people left behind after layoffs and kind of how they're affected. So. So this leader says that their boss recently decided on this big strategic shift at the organization, and that was pretty promptly followed by layoffs. So this leader's kind of having a hard time not motivating only their team, but also themselves when they know that this big shift kind of has to pay off. There's sort of a big bet there, or there maybe could be more layoffs. Right. So how are they getting themselves and others jazzed about this new big strategy when there was also a very big change that accompanied the strategy change?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. I mean, this sounds like a lot of compounded pressure. Right. Because what I'm hearing is that the leader kind of feels like, oh, my God, we have to make this work or else we're going to go through this again. Right. So there's a. We don't want to relive the history that we just lived through. We have to do everything at all costs to succeed so that we don't go through that again. And that can be really tricky in terms of the mindset that it puts us in and even the leadership posture that it puts us in, which I want to talk about a little bit. But before we do that, I do think it's important to sort of name what happens when there are. When there is any type of organizational change, quite frankly. Right. Grief is a process of change. Right. It's how we experience and move through change, whether it be the change that occurs because of a layoff or a change that occurs because of a reorg or a change that occurs because we're pivoting strategy, you know, we're moving in a different direction. You're always letting go of something in order to move forward, or that's how most people think about it. And so in this case, I just want to name that this individual, you know, is potentially grieving. Right. Going through the grieving process, as is their team. And when we ignore that, you know, we sort of are trying to put the rug over it, make believe it's not happening. Trying to make believe that we don't have any emotions.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

You know, that we're not activated around this whole thing.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Everything's fine.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Everything's fine.

[Muriel Wilkins]

You know, that's why, like, I think the worst thing that can be said, and it's very rare that I will speak in absolutes like this, but when I coach people and there's something that's happened organizationally, I'm like, please don't get up there at the town hall and say business as usual, because it's not usual. You know, it hasn't happened.

It's different.

It's like, business is different, you know, and so that's acknowledging that something has changed. And so here's the thing, though. Like, I think by acknowledging it, you're. You're naming the. And we have dealt with this, and we're also dealing with this shift in strategy. Now, I will say that the way that this individual framed this, they have kind of created some causality and some coupling, which I don't think serves them well. Meaning they're saying the reason why we need to make the strategy successful is so that we don't go through layoffs again. So that is going in with a playing not to lose attitude. When we go in with a playing not to lose attitude, we are not playing up to our full potential. We are not playing in a way to kind of measure up to whatever strategic objectives we have or play at our best. We are in a protective measure. We are playing defensively. We are playing out of fear, which fear is constricting and rigid, and it leads to organizationally, a fear of making mistakes, a fear of speaking up, a fear of innovating. It can lead to paralysis, not making decisions, et cetera, which are not the things you want when you're pushing forward a new strategy. So the first thing I would say is, let's try decoupling this, meaning let's look at it from the standpoint of not what do we need to avoid?

Right, right, right.

But more, what is it that we have to gain with this new strategic process or this new strategy that we're following? And how do I lead myself individually, but how do we act as a team to move forward? Okay. The second thing I would say is, you know, when we talk about motivation, because he's saying people aren't feeling really motivated, you know, and understandable, you know, but what is motivation?

Right?

Like, motivation, if you break it down or like, my understanding of it is like, motivation is a motive to act. And so what I'm hearing is the strategy is providing. Here's the action we want to take. What I'm not hearing is the motive, and that is, I think the job of this leader is to help the team collectively come up with their new why. You know, what is going to be our why to enable us to move forward with this. Not to forget what's happened, not to downplay it or hide it, but to say, yes, we have to honor that. We've experienced that. And what is our why for also immersing ourself in this new strategy? Yeah.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

I loved what you said. And I think when I heard this, it reminded me of a podcast I worked on eight or nine years ago now. It was a profile of Ava DuVernay.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Love. Her.

Yes.

My imaginary sister friend.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah, exactly.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And she was wonderful.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

And she told this story where she had sort of gotten some accolades, but she wasn't getting, like, the big deals, like the sort of Ryan Cooglers of the world were getting. And she talked, I believe it was

[Muriel Wilkins]

with Oprah love, of course. Right. My other imaginary sister friend.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah. And she was like, should I just take this kind of crappy director job? Basically, I'm paraphrasing this story. And Oprah was like, you shouldn't make decisions based on desperation. And it's something that's really stuck with me. And it was a very small part of this podcast. But I've thought about it a lot in my career since then of, like, when you make those moves out of desperation, you end up in the wrong place. It doesn't make the goal that you want. You have to kind of stand firm in knowing what you want and know that the thing will come along, which is, you know, kind of hard. But I think companies do this too, right? They start acting desperation. And it's very hard when everyone on the team sort of feels that weight to get them to be excited in the same way. That they were before. So that's sort of what I immediately thought of. But the other thing that I'm sort of curious about, that I think you'll have a take on, I'm pretty sure you'll have a take on is, you know, this person's struggling, I think, with their own motivation and with the team. But I think to what extent do they have the power, do they have the responsibility to sort of communicate what this effect has had on their team to their boss? Right. Because I think the boss does this and they're like, okay, but go be excited. And they don't realize how much. Then if the team is making decisions or doing work out of desperation, they might not be achieving the goals that they want for this new strategy. Right. They're doing the safe thing and they're doing the thing that's trying to make the boss happy, but not necessarily the right thing for the company. So I don't know if there's anything to be done sort of in a managing up perspective.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, yeah, no, that's a great point. I mean, look, I always think there's something to be done, managing up. Always. As long as you have an up, you need to be managing the. How you do that though, in this particular scenario, I think really depends on a few things. One is what is your relationship with your manager? Right. Number one. Number two, what is their appetite for even wanting to understand how. What the impact is downstream? Right. And what I mean by that is, you know, let's face it, the reality of it is you have some leaders, some people, particularly in senior level leaders, who are like, hey, I kind of care about how everyone else dealing with this, like, can you be my ears on the ground? I want that type of upward feedback so I can see if there's anything we can do. And then I have others who are like, business as usual, like, I don't want to hear it. This is the way we're doing it. So I think I would want to nuance which one we're operating with. Either way though. Either way, if you were feeling like, hey, I'm going to go talk to my manager, what I would suggest is that you communicate this in a way where you're not just raising the issue, I. E. The team doesn't feel motivated, you're raising the issue and potential solutions, what is your ask? And so I think it goes back to the communication skill, which I believe our friend, I believe this comes from him. If not, I'm so sorry around who created this. And I'm not giving them full credit. But because he's a friend, I'm going to make believe it's him. Matt Abrams, who talks about, you know, you want to state the what the so what the now what so what is the what that's happening? What's the so what right which is relevant to up there, you know, the managing why should they care about how the team is receiving this and experiencing this? Speak about it at their level and what's the now what? Meaning what are you recommending? What are you asking for? What do you want them to do with this information? You know, and so I think in either case your responsibility is a do you communicate it? And I don't think that's a bad idea and B your Uber responsibility is how you communicate it because you don't want to dilute it and actually backfire on you or your team.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Amazing. We will be back with more questions right after the break.

[Muriel Wilkins]

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[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

We talk a lot on the show, I think, Muriel, about people who kind of struggle to level up their leadership and sort of make that transition from being a doer into true leadership. So this question is about productivity. This manager is wondering how he can find the time to really develop his leadership skills and his team when he also has to churn out so much every day. How does he let go of some of that productivity? How does he start sort of trying to better balance things?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, this is so interesting to me, right, Because I think inherent in this question is, as always, an assumption. And the assumption here is that there is actually a trade off between productivity and leadership development. There's an assumption that developing your people is counterproductive.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

It's a time suck. Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

But, you know, here's the thing. Like, time suck and productivity and lack of productivity are two different things.

Right?

Like, time suck is something that actually just is draining your time. So something that actually is leading to value in the end can still be a time suck. It's taking up a lot of my time. It's sucking up a lot of my time. So if I have to write, you know, a book, which I have done, guess what? I'm very happy that I wrote this book. But was it a time suck? Absolutely. It took up a huge amount of time. Does that mean it wasn't productive? No, it doesn't mean it wasn't productive. Because I saw the value in the long run and in the short run of doing that work. So we tend to equate how much time something takes us with determining whether it's productive or not. Because we think for something to be productive, it has to be like, uber efficient.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

And like, I have the direct result right now that I pumped out, and

[Muriel Wilkins]

here's what I would offer. I think there are many things in the workplace and outside of the workplace that in reality we say we value but are not at their best when they are done efficiently approaching it from a place of efficiency actually makes that thing not productive. Okay. Which is sort of counterintuitive. So let's bring it back to this. So I think, number one, in order to really understand what the job is here, leading, you know, being somebody who leads, you are developing people and you are developing. Even developing yourself is not a question of productivity. If what you're trying to do is learn to lead and develop your skills.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay. So I would ask, number one, what are the things that you want to develop? Because that's not even clear. Okay. And start with what are the things that you can develop in the things that are right in front of you? So just in time, Right? Okay. Are there just in time opportunities in the moment? Opportunities to not only develop yourself, but also to develop your people? Right. Then I also think you have to be opportunistic. Meaning, where are the opportunities, again, that you're keeping an eye on where you can develop others? You don't necessarily have to create them. But you see, an example of that is like, oh, there's a meeting coming up. Oh, maybe I can have that person present instead of me. That's being opportunistic. It's not creating extra work. It's not taking additional time. You're not having to put something else on your calendar. It's going to happen anyway. So be opportunistic to develop. And then I think there's the third, which I think where people get caught up in like, oh, my God, it's going to take me so much time.

It's.

There is something systemically that you want to put in place systematically that you want to place to help develop others. So that is like, am I going to sit down once a quarter with each of my people and talk about their development? Am I actually going to sit down with once a month and give them some feedback? Okay. So that might take up their time. Here's the hack. If you can systemize it. If you can systemize it from the standpoint of we do this once a quarter, there's a regular cadence, and you systemize it from. Here's what that conversation looks like. There's clarity around how we have these development discussions. Give your people what they need so that they can make these development interactions feel more efficient while still being productive at the same time. The more structure and system you can put around them, the more it will meet that goal as well.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah, I think that the system is helpful because I, I actually also get the sense, and I'm obviously reading into this, but this person might already be sort of thinking about a system. It's just maybe they need to expand their horizons as to how they set things up. Right. So I hear a question like this and I'm sort of thinking, okay, well, this person knows that they want to develop people. So maybe they set up a weekly one on one with the five people on their team and they're all an hour long, but then they also have to do two presentations a week. And so they end up working at night to finish that, you know, quote unquote, real work because they're spending the time. And you look at your calendar and you say the easy place to carve the timeout is those one on ones. Right. But like that's living in the assumption that an hour long one on one every week is the best way to develop your team. Right. So yeah, it's not necessarily an efficiency thing, as in let's make all those meetings half an hour. But it's maybe there's better ways to be making sure that your team is growing and developing.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. So it could be sort of kicking the tire on the things that you have in place. You know, I'm dating myself, but like, you want to see what people really value, look at their checkbook. You know, I think the same goes with your calendar, you know, your outlook calendar or whatever calendar you use. The time that you put in reflects what you value. And then how you use that time right, where you give your energy, what you lead with demonstrates what you value. And if you can understand that, the value you bring to the table as a leader, as a manager, in this particular case, because they brought in like making the shift from doing to leading. If what you value is just doing right, then that's where you're going to stay your time. If you're like, no, like, I am both a doer and a leader, you know, because leaders have to do too. It's not like they don't have to do, but what am I doing? And that part of that part of my domain is also developing people. It's part of my job description just as much as it is doing the deliverables or whatever it is that I'm spending my time on. I think when it comes to developing others and yourself, where there's a will, there's a way. And so I would start with the will part. Do you really want to do this? What does that look like? And then work with what you have, you know, and if it means that you have to make trade offs elsewhere, then you have to make trade offs elsewhere to be able to do it.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Sorry, I was just throwing what is a checkbook into ChatGPT so I could appropriately answer. I'm just. I'm just kidding.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Hilarious.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

All right, last question of the day. This is about leaving jobs out of frustration. So this leader says that she always seems to leave positions because of frustration. And it can actually kind of be on an impulse, like she'll beast somewhere for a few years and all of a sudden just kind of gets fed up and leans, is a little mercurial about things sometimes even without another plan. And she's wondering if it's just her or if she hasn't found the sort of Goldilocks job or company that really lines with what she wants. So what are some questions, Muriel, that she could even start asking herself to sort of slow herself down before she makes, you know, another one of these big pivots?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Well, first of all, what I love about the way that this individual is framing this is that she's even taking the time to say, is it me?

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

You know, am I the problem?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Am I the problem?

Hello.

Hi, me. Am I the problem? Right. Because so many people don't do that. You know, they automatically go. It's the place, right?

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah. They just say, this person's an idiot. I'm leaving.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, exactly. Or this place sucks. You know, it's the culture. It's just that. And I'm not absolving that it very

well, it could be.

Yeah, you know, it could be. And you're the one in it. So there is still a part that's you. Like, you not liking it is still you. And the thing that she does have in her control is her so understanding what part she contributes and taking responsibility for her part, even if that becomes, oh, like my responsibility is that I chose the wrong job or I chose not even a bad company. I chose a company that's not aligned with my values or I didn't really get what I was signing up for. I could have done more homework.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

I took this out of desperation.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I took it out of desperation. Or maybe none of the above. I just is right? Like, yeah, it happens. We take jobs, we think they're great. And then, you know, I sent my daughter a quote from something the other day where it was like, you know, maybe sometimes we should stop blaming ourselves for choosing the wrong person. Maybe it's because that person didn't really show their true colors until like six months in. Right. Or six years in or whatever.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

I'm snapping, I'm snapping.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So, you know, the same could have happened with a job. Right. But. But actually it's a both and, but we're talking about this person. So it's only what they can take responsibility for.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And when I hear somebody say, what questions can I ask myself? That is music to my ears. Yeah. Because what they're saying, they pass the test. I don't test anybody, but, you know, but it is music because they're like saying, muriel, how can I coach myself in these situations? How can I ask the questions that expand my perspective around this? So a couple of questions I would get really clear about. What is it that I'm fed up about? Right. What is the fed up threshold? What does fed up look like? What is the criteria? Why? Why? Because in the future, what I would love is for you to recognize the signs that this might lead to the fed up situation before you start eating. Right.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Versus after the fact and you have the tummy ache. Okay. So when you can start reckoning, you know, it's just like, I know, I know if I eat a particular food, you know, I know for me there's a particular brand. Right. There's a particular brand of ice cream. Oh, man, if I eat it, I know what the consequences are going to be. So eyes wide open. But you don't learn that until you realize, well, what are the signs? Like what makes me have a tummy ache? Right?

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay.

So the same thing she can ask herself. She now has a track record. Do an inventory. What were the conditions that made you feel fed up? And is there a pattern there? How did I show up that contributed to this? Do some pattern recognition work so that you don't operate only in hindsight, but you can operate with foresight as you look for new opportunities. Okay. The other thing I would ask, ask yourself is, are you moving towards something or are you running away from something?

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yep, yep.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And I know both can be true at the same time, but I find that a lot of times people are running away from, which means that they are being reactive rather than proactive. It's not like they're designing the career and the opportunity and the type of culture and saying, oh, like that's what I want, so I'm going to go look for it, which increases the chances of you finding it. What they're saying is, oh, my God, this is horrible. So I'm leaving. Okay. But the question again goes back to, well, what makes it Horrible, right? Like, what is your threshold sometimes? What is the opportunity cost of you leaving the situation? So in no way am I suggesting that you should always stay in a work situation. Of course not. But also recognize that there are always going to be some times when it's challenging, when it doesn't feel like it's what you want, it doesn't feel like it's what you need. It's not really at the intersection of what you value and what the organization values. That happens. It happens all the time. Ultimately, you want some convergence and some intersection between what you value, what you want, what you need, and what the organization has to offer and what it values and what it needs and what

you have to offer.

There can be some dissonance. It's just that the dissonance can't, like, be forever, because that is. That will then lead you to not being happy and not even happy, just being at peace with it. Now, kudos to you that you ultimately, at some point make a decision and say, I'm out. Because the opposite can hold true, where there's dissonance and people just stay hanging around and hanging around and hanging around as though they are forced to, rather than recognize that they have agency and they have choice and they have options. So that is the case. And then the last thing I'll say is, ask yourself what your why is. Nobody can answer that for you. What this means, double entendre here is, what is the meaning behind work for you? Okay. What is the meaning behind work? Because if you're not clear about what the meaning of work is for you, and for you, no judgment as long as you can sleep with it, then it's going to be very hard to figure out. Also, do I stay or do I go? And am I leaving too soon? Because sometimes the meaning is still being fulfilled, but we get distracted by all the other noise that's surrounding it. Right. And sometimes vice versa. And so asking yourself, what is the meaning for. For me, for work. What does work represent for me? Why is it in my life? You know, makes it a better litmus test for determining when and whether one should leave. One other question. I know I said the last question, but I have one more. I have a question for this particular individual around what is it that I'm learning from my work experience? Right?

Yep.

And what am I learning about myself, about work, about others, about organizational life? What am I learning? And is that possible where I am and wherever I go? Is there a possibility and probability? How do I continue to amplify that learning so the learning piece is important as well.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

I think the learning is great. And also just the idea of the pattern recognition, the other thing that sort of occurred to me is, you know, you might go back and say, okay, I've quit four jobs and every time my boss was terrible. And like, what does that say about the relationship I was building with my boss? Right. I think that there's also sometimes a tendency to sort of like swing the pendulum too far the other direction. So, you know, someone maybe thinks, oh, this is way too corporate and bureaucratic, so I want to go work for a startup. And then they go to a startup and they say, oh, this is terrible. Everyone's so disorganized. And you know, so I think the pattern recognition could be there's something consistent happening every time and it could be, oh, I'm running away from something, so I think I should go do the opposite. But if you don't have that sort of center of what you're looking for and what's important to you, it can be easy to make the next choice. Just be wrong in a different way. Right?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, I mean, underneath all this too is this question of like, why is the strategy always run?

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

You know, we live in a fast paced world, Muriel.

[Muriel Wilkins]

You gotta keep run away, run away. Like, you know, what would it look like I would want to explore to them? Like, what would it look like for you to stay in reality? Because I'm always curious around if my approach has always been a particular way for me to expand and grow, I have to try the other way as well. And so have you tried staying even when it felt not great? And what can you gain from that? Like, maybe there's a lesson there in being patient in the face of adversity, Right?

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I don't know what the lesson is, but I would be curious around, you know, what would it look like if you stayed a little bit to see how that works out for you? What do you have to learn about yourself in the strategy that you keep taking? This response of always leaving. And what could you learn from staying?

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yeah, I mean, things always change. Right. Sometimes if you sit there long enough, the winds shift.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. So it's not a right or wrong. Like should you never quit something? Should you never leave the job? No, absolutely, you should leave the job.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I think I'm just proposing that because she sort of said like, it's always around takes. Right. It happens over and over and over again. And so it's like, okay, like if, if she's feeling some dissonance around that, then the way to test that dissonance out is let's explore what it would look like if you stayed.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

All right, Muriel, your job is done here for now. For today.

[Muriel Wilkins]

We can call now so I can leave now.

[Mary (Producer/Co-host)]

Yep, dismissed.

[Muriel Wilkins]

That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time.

[Guest or Listener Questioner]

You know, I work with very talented colleagues, good people around me, but the work itself just doesn't fill my cup. You know, how do I stay engaged and effective in a space that doesn't align with my deeper motivations? You know, I really want to be intentional with my time here rather than just wait it out.

[Muriel Wilkins]

If you want to unpack the episodes

from Coaching Real Leaders, you can join

me at coachingrealeaderscommunity.com where I host live

discussions about coaching sessions you hear on this podcast.

And I also answer questions just like I do here, but you can ask them directly of me and you can also follow me on LinkedIn. Murielmignolwilkins on Instagram Coach Muriel Wilkinson A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts so that you can subscribe to the show.

And please, please, please leave a five star review.

Thank you to my producer Mary Dew, sound editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, and my chief of staff, Emily Soffa. Much gratitude to the leaders who joined me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.

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