Ask Muriel Anything with Special Guest Amy Gallo

Summary

Coaching Real Leaders: Ask Muriel Anything with Amy Gallo

Harvard Business Review | Host: Muriel Wilkins | Special Guest: Amy Gallo
Episode Date: June 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this "Ask Muriel Anything" episode, executive coach Muriel Wilkins welcomes workplace expert and author Amy Gallo (known for Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone, Even Difficult People) for a deep and candid discussion on real-life leadership and relational dynamics. They answer questions submitted by listeners and clients about workplace conflict, visibility, feedback, and self-advocacy, offering thoughtful, research-backed, and practical advice. The episode is lively, warm, and insightful, filled with memorable stories, quotable advice, and tangible strategies leaders can immediately use.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Approaching Workplace Dynamics: It's About the Dynamic, Not the Person

[03:01–09:19]

• Amy Gallo's Philosophy:
  • Amy focuses on the “dynamic” (the interaction) rather than labeling people as the problem.

    “It’s not either entity in the dynamic. It’s the dynamic itself that’s the problem.” (Amy, 04:03)

  • This approach empowers people, offering a locus of control even if the other person “is” the problem.
  • Encourages small, experimental changes to the interaction, not just changing oneself or demanding the other person change.
• Co-Creation of Dynamics:
  • Muriel and Amy stress workplace issues are co-created and often about relationships to the issue, not the issue itself.

    “The issue is never about the issue. The issue is always about our relationship to the issue.” (Muriel, 05:27)

• Experimentation and Acceptance:
  • The importance of creativity (“try something different, even small”) and recognizing waiting or pausing as an intentional action.

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2. Question 1: Navigating Repeated Conflict With Your Boss

[09:22–21:42]

Listener Scenario:

A VP whose strong convictions got him ahead now finds regular disagreements with his boss escalate into anger and conflict—unlike his past experiences. He seeks advice on changing this dynamic and protecting his well-being.

Amy & Muriel’s Advice:

• Recognize Patterns & Triggers:
  • Amy identifies "strength of conviction" as double-edged; both he and his boss may be rewarded for confidence, leading to matched conflict.
  • Suggests a “meta-conversation”: name the discomfort and invite joint problem-solving.

    “What’s a pattern-breaking action you can take?” (Amy, 11:50)

  • If trust is low, try changing your approach: ask questions instead of stating opinions, invite others into dialogues, change venues, etc.
• Check Your Assumptions:
  • Muriel encourages exploring interpretations—are you sure your boss is actually angry, or is it your perception?

    “People always tell me, ‘Oh my god, you look upset.’ And I’m like, I’m not upset— that is your interpretation.” (Muriel, 15:24)

  • Suggests directly asking boss how they experience these debates.
• Emotional Regulation:
  • Work on changing your emotional response, not just your communication style.

    “What would you need to do… so no matter what happens, you leave with another emotion that you might like feeling?” (Muriel, 16:07)

  • Focus anger into problem-solving, not rumination.
• Normalize Conflict:
  • Both coaches stress conflict is normal—expect it, plan for it, and align on how to disagree constructively.

    “Let’s flip the script… let’s expect conflict, expect disagreement, and let’s align on how we want to deal with them.” (Muriel, 19:14)

  • Contracting in advance about disagreement can defuse drama (e.g., agreeing on signals, private vs. public challenges).

    “The strongest relationships I see… have explicitly said, ‘We are going to disagree. How should we handle that?’” (Amy, 19:54)

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3. Question 2: Increasing Visibility Without Self-Promotion

[25:38–38:15]

Listener Scenario:

A highly effective mid-career leader is told to be more “visible” to move up but dislikes the idea of “talking herself up” in 1:1s and self-promotion.

Amy & Muriel’s Advice:

• Clarify What You Want:
  • Start by confirming if moving up is genuinely your goal or expected momentum.

    “Are you moving up just because the momentum is there? That would be my very first question.” (Amy, 26:24)

• Ask for Specifics:
  • When told to ‘be more visible,’ get concrete suggestions from colleagues or leaders—it’s often context dependent.
• Make Visibility Relevant:
  • Don’t just show up—make your visibility relevant to what the organization and stakeholders care about.

    “Visibility is going to get you but so far, my friend… The differentiator is the relevance factor.” (Muriel, 30:10)

  • Draw clear links between your work and organizational priorities; share compelling, contextually relevant stories.
• Stakeholder Mapping:
  • Identify who you need to be visible to, what they care about, and tailor your approach accordingly.

    “I’m almost picturing a spreadsheet—who do you need to be visible to, what do they care about, where’s the point of contact?” (Amy, 32:10)

  • Muriel reframes this as "you are your own change project."
• Ethics of Self-Advocacy:
  • Normalize discomfort with self-promotion—then examine whether it’s values-based or learned discomfort that holds you back.

    “Before we put the kibosh on ‘it doesn’t sit right with me,’ let’s explore why…” (Muriel, 35:19)

  • Try "what if" experimentation—act as if it was okay to advocate, then reflect.

    “What if it was okay for me to speak up at that meeting? What if it was okay to self-promote—how would I act?” (Muriel, 37:18)

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4. Question 3: Responding to Feedback That You’re Too Harsh

[42:41–53:30]

Listener Scenario:

A leader receives a 360 review saying her style is “too harsh” and lowers morale. She’s skeptical—should she explain her good intentions or do something different?

Amy & Muriel’s Advice:

• Intent vs. Impact:
  • Good intentions don’t override negative impact.

    “I love the idea of ‘you’re not really hurt because I have good intention,’ right? …There is a perception.” (Amy, 43:21, 44:12)

  • When feedback is consistent (e.g., 360), treat it as a real perception issue, not a one-off.
  • Before making a strong point or dismissing ideas, frame your purpose and intentions transparently.

    “Say, ‘I’m going to push back here because I think we can do better as a team and I’m really invested in our success.’” (Amy, 45:12)

• Do You Value Perception?
  • Muriel emphasizes leadership means caring about and actively managing how you’re perceived, without losing your core self:

    "Not to say that it's grounded… Perception is their reality… you have your reality, and you have to decide what you want to do with that." (Muriel, 45:47)

  • “You’re constantly being perceived. Do you have the capacity to deal with that, to respond in a way that uplifts your goal?” (Muriel, 47:42)
• Ownership and Feedforward:
  • Leaders should take full responsibility for intent, impact, and team morale.

    “Let me take ownership for my part, 100% responsibility for my part, which is the way I behave and what my intent is.” (Muriel, 48:17)

  • Ask team for specific actions (“feedforward”: what would help them feel more energized or supported?).
• Leadership Means Managing Morale:
  • Explicitly: Leading is about results and creating an environment people want to be in.

    “With leading comes a bullet point in your job description… Ensuring engagement, motivation, and morale is your job.” (Muriel, 49:05)

  • This is true whether or not you’re a formal leader—collaboration and climate is everyone’s job.

    “If you can’t do that in collaboration with others, you’re not going to succeed.” (Amy, 50:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Conflict and Agency:

  “Let’s get creative about what else you can do.”
  — Amy Gallo [06:55]

• On Relevancy vs. Visibility:

  “You have been around people who are visible but not relevant.”
  — Muriel Wilkins [30:33]

• On Experimentation:

  “Go in with an experimental mindset… the only thing you can learn is that it didn’t work.”
  — Amy Gallo [38:05]

• On Feedback and Change:

  “We can debate till the end of time whether you’re ‘too harsh’ or not, but there is a perception. Let’s work on changing that.”
  — Amy Gallo [44:12]

• On the Realities of Leadership:

  “It’s not a nice to have… If you’re a leader, this [team morale] should be part of your job description as important as delivering the results.”
  — Muriel Wilkins [49:05]

• On Personal Challenge:

  “I overestimate the ease of staying quiet and the comfort of that, versus the consequence of saying something that might be disruptive.”
  — Amy Gallo [52:24]

• On Practice Over Perfection:

  “The magic is actually in the practice, not in the nailing it.”
  — Muriel Wilkins [53:30]
  “Nailing it is almost an impossibility because the rupture is where the learning is.”
  — Amy Gallo [53:36]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:01] Amy Gallo shares her philosophy on workplace dynamics
• [09:22] First listener question: Handling repeated conflict with your boss
• [25:38] Second listener question: How to be visibly valuable without self-promotion
• [42:41] Third listener question: Receiving and acting on tough feedback
• [52:15] Quick-fire: Hardest advice for Amy to take herself

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Tone & Language

This episode is candid, collegial, and empowering. Both Muriel and Amy use warm, direct, and sometimes humorous language—balancing expertise with humility and relatability. Many responses are accompanied by personal anecdotes, admissions of imperfection, and laughter, making complex leadership challenges feel approachable and surmountable.

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For Listeners: Key Takeaways

• Focus on the relationship dynamic, not just the “problem person”
• Experiment with small, pattern-breaking actions to change workplace outcomes
• Seek relevancy and specificity in how you “show up” at work
• Manage perception as a leader; intent does not override impact
• Prepare to practice—and be uncomfortable—if you wish to grow
• Owning your role in morale and collaboration is not negotiable in leadership

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This summary covers all core content, insights, and actionable wisdom from the discussion, omitting advertisements and sponsor messages for clarity.

Transcript

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[Muriel Wilkins]

Hey everyone, I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Ask Muriel. Anything from Coaching Real Leaders? In these episodes, I'm joined by some special guests that will help me field

[Co-host/Announcer]

questions that have come in from the

[Muriel Wilkins]

Coaching Real Leaders community or that bubble up in my client work. And today we are joined by the wonderful Amy Gallo, former host of HBR's Women at Work, author of books like Getting how to Work With Everyone, Even Difficult People, an all around expert on

[Co-host/Announcer]

workplace culture and workplace relationships, and most of all, my friend.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Hi Muriel. Hey, Amy. Amy and I have known each other for a very long time. Both came into the world of coaching around the same time and have worked together in so many different iterations. And over that time, not only has she been an amazing colleague, but as I said before, most importantly, she has become a dear, dear friend. So I am personally delighted and thrilled to have her on here with me. And so, Amy, welcome, welcome.

[Amy Gallo]

Thank you, Muriel. I think it's important to mention too, our children, children, your twins and my daughter are born a week apart. So we also entered working motherhood around the same time. And I feel like that's been a touch point, you know, obviously all the professional stuff, but that's been a touch point for us during this time.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I've so enjoyed our conversations both on podcasts, like when you've invited me multiple times on Women at Work together with Amy Bernstein. And I miss that podcast so dearly.

[Co-host/Announcer]

And so for me it's like full

[Muriel Wilkins]

circle to have you on here. And of course we Always talk offline, too, which is always super special for everyone out there. Amy and I are constantly texting each other about stuff, so. But we won't get into that today. All right?

[Amy Gallo]

We're not reading texts. We're answering questions.

[Muriel Wilkins]

We're answering questions in order to kind of frame kind of your approach to everything. I would love to start by you telling us a little bit about kind of your approach, your take on work dynamics. It's something that you spend an enormous amount of time thinking about, and you're so generous around sharing your thoughts on that. You've coached people on it, you've written about it. Tell us a little bit about your perspective and approach around workplace dynamics.

[Amy Gallo]

You know, I did coaching for a while. I did a lot of one on one extended coaching, which was very different than what I do now. Mostly what I do now are talks and workshops based on my book, but I end up doing a lot of coaching as a result. And that's more ad hoc. Either it's someone who approaches me afterwards or writes to me afterwards, or maybe it's the client who hired me to speak, and they're dealing with something specifically. My overall approach is to really focus. You actually use the word in your question is the dynamic rather than the people. Because everyone thinks either the other person's the problem, which is the more common assumption, or that they're the problem. Like, why can't I do this? Why don't I know how to deal with this? And what I really try to focus on is it's not either entity in the dynamic. It's the dynamic itself that's the problem. And there's two reasons I focus on that. Number one, it allows the person who I'm working with to recognize their role, right? That they play a role in creating the dynamic. Even if they think it's the other person's fault, and even if I believe it's the other person's fault, at least they can see what they're doing. It also gives them a nice locus of control because, you know, if the answer is, well, that other person has to go to therapy for three years and then come back and interact with you differently. Like, you can't do that, Right? The old adage, you can't change another person is absolutely true. So it allows them to focus on how do I change the dynamic? Not necessarily the person and not even necessarily myself, but how do I take small risks, make small experiments to see how can I shift the way we interact, nudge our dynamic into more productive territory?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, as you know, as we always say, everything is co created. Right?

[Amy Gallo]

That's right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And so the dynamic is co created.

[Amy Gallo]

Absolutely.

[Muriel Wilkins]

There's so many different aspects to it. It makes me think about in the work that you do, it makes me think about something that I heard another colleague say, and I can't remember who that colleague is right now, but it stayed with me, which is the issue is never about the issue. The issue is always about our relationship to the issue. That's right.

[Amy Gallo]

I love that.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right. I mean, and so from a perspective of workplace dynamics, the issue is not about, you know, the people. The issue is about the relationship that we have to the relationship of the people.

[Amy Gallo]

Right. Well, and that's the thing. I tell people, what's the problem? Like. Cause, you know, if it's you and me going at it, Muriel's not the problem. What's the problem? Is it the way Muriel speaks to me? Is it our inability to come to an agreement about what the budget's supposed to be? Is it like, what's the actual issue that you want resolved? And I think too often we're focused on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But her, her, her or him, you know, like, we're just so focused on the people when it's really about our relationship. And oftentimes it's not even about our relationship to that person. They might remind us of someone. They might have something that we really wish we had. They might behave in a way that we're embarrassed that we behave that way too. So it's oftentimes just a reflection of how we relate to that person rather than that person themselves. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Here we go.

[Amy Gallo]

Here we go. And comes right back to leadership unblocked. Right. It's like, it's. What's the belief I have about this dynamic that's getting in my way? One of the beliefs that I often am really trying to unhook people from is this idea that there's nothing that can be done. Right. Like, people will have a frustrating situation. They try one thing, it fails miserably. They're like, I've tried, you know, I've done my best. It's like, well, no, you tried one thing. Like, let's. Let's get creative about what else you can do.

[Co-host/Announcer]

Try to do.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. So this morning I was doing my little. You know how I start every day, which is with a. I sit on my mat and meditate. And then I have a book that has a daily kind of meditation in it. I choose a book each year, and this is Every year it's something different. It just so happens this particular book this year, Amy Gallo, is actually about relationships, and it has a meditation around relationships, not meditation or reading.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And the entry point for today, when you said thinking that there's nothing that we can ever do, the entry today, the little reading, was about how actually waiting is an act of doing something. And so we often think doing means that we cannot wait, that we have to move, and that sometimes the choice in the doing is in the waiting or in the sitting. And that can be just as powerful as moving forward or whatever, you know, deciding, taking a concrete physical action that we can take. So I think here it's more around the deciding of what to do even than just a doing, I have to

[Amy Gallo]

say, because in my first book, the HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict, I talk about four options when you're faced with a conflict. And one is do nothing. And that's the first option I talk about because it's something we often do out of default. Either we're afraid to act, or we don't know what to do, or we don't think we'll be successful. But it can be very good strategy. Right. Waiting, seeing what happens. Does this issue repeat itself? How do I feel about it? How does the other person. How do our perspectives change? It's an action, but I think oftentimes we either see it as like, the cop out, or we think we're doing nothing when we're doing a lot of things. So, like, I'll be like, I'm going to rise above this. I'm not doing anything. Then I gossip about it with my other coworkers. I act passive aggressively toward you. Right. Like, we end up doing a lot. So it has to be a very conscious choice to truly wait and do nothing. And sometimes that's all you have to do. The problem resolves itself. Or sometimes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I love that.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah. Or you feel differently about it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, let's dive into these questions. First question. It comes from a guy who's a VP at his organization, and he feels like he's often gotten ahead in his career because of the strength of his convictions. Right. He's not afraid to take a risk or have an opinion. But in his latest role, he's been having a hard time with his boss when they disagree. He's used to others liking his ideas, but it feels like their disagreements just keep raising the temperature and making each other angry. Oh, boy. He's hoping for advice on how to approach these interactions differently, both for his career and quite frankly, his own well being. So he's not leaving work angry, right? Like, nobody wants to leave work angry every day, I don't think. And so, you know, he's looking for guidance on this particular dynamic that he has. And I'm hoping that you can shed some of your wisdom here, Amy. I'll try to think about it as well, but I'm gonna let you answer it first.

[Amy Gallo]

The thing that struck me about his situation is that he said he's succeeded based on the strength of his convictions. So he feels the value that he brings to work, to his boss, to the organization, is decisiveness and passion for whatever he believes. Now, I am not surprised to hear that. I think we reward overconfidence. I talk about this in the chapter of Getting along called the Know it all right. We reward people for being more confident than they should be in ways that can be dangerous to the organization, but also to individuals. So I'm not surprised to hear that that's how he's sort of found his value. Because the problem is it sounds like he sort of met his match in that regard. And it sounds like perhaps his boss has also been rewarded on the strength of his convictions. If they're starting to butt heads around these issues and, and he's surprised, like, why isn't he valuing my opinions? It may be that his boss is equally finding his value in being opinionated, being decisive, and that's a recipe for sort of this conflict that's happening in anger and escalation. Because if they're both showing up saying, no, no, no, no, I'm right, I'm right. There's two things I would suggest. One is if he's feeling brave, if he's feeling like the relationship isn't really sort of too far gone, I would say to have a meta conversation where he sits down and says, hey, I notice what's happening between us, I'm not comfortable with it. I want to change. What suggestions do you have? So instead of like, can you stop being like, you know, leveling accusations to really just sort of acknowledge that the situation isn't comfortable now, you have to trust that the person will hear that. And it sounds like maybe there's enough tension and animosity between them that that conversation could maybe backfire. So one of the other things I would suggest is to just modify his approach when it comes to these disagreements. There's a great conflict expert named Jennifer Goldman Wetzler, and she talks about what's a pattern breaking action you can take. So if the pattern is you come in with your strong convictions, your boss comes in with theirs, it gets heated, you leave work angry. How can you break that pattern? What small action can you take? Do something differently? Now, I'm not saying roll over and just say, oh, yeah, you're right, boss, yes, yes, yes, no. But what if you ask a question instead of making a statement when you would normally make a statement? What if you invite other people into the conversation instead of it just being the two of you? Whatever pattern is creating the unwanted outcome, can you do something slightly different? Not revolutionary, maybe revolutionary too, but can you just at least tweak something? Whether it's your approach, the situation, the context, who's involved, whether you say something versus ask a question, whether you push back, maybe you don't push back for a while. You just ask questions and understand, and then you save your opinion for later. What can you do differently? What are you thinking as you think about his problems?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, I mean, I think this idea of, you know, what's still one thing that you. Or what is something that you can do differently to change the pattern is exactly that. Right. Like, if not otherwise, you stay stuck in the pattern. And it also gives you a sense of, like, what's in your control. You're not there to control how the other person is going to respond. Right. You're there to increase the probability that they might see things in the same way that you do, or that they might not get angry. But you can't, at the end of the day, control those things from happening. So I concur with you on that. There's another question for me that would come up, which would be to kind of take a step back, like in this question from this individual or the way that they shared their experience. I have a lot of questions around the way that they're interpreting what's actually happening that I'd want to kick the tire on a little bit. Smart.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And so going back to kind of the beginning of our conversation where you were sharing that in relational and workplace dynamics, a lot of what we experience is what's reflected about ourselves in the other person. I don't know whether that's the case or not, but is the other person truly angry? I don't know. Right. Like, I'm interested in how is the boss actually experiencing this individual, this vp? It's interesting because I remember I had a coaching client where it was kind of similar, where they were like, I feel like my boss always feels like I'm debating him, you know, and we're going back and Forth. But then when I talked to the boss, the boss was like, I want to be debated. Like, I want him to be my sparring partner. I want him to understand that when I'm asking the questions and I'm pushing back, I'm doing my job. Right. And so it was a shift of perspective around the expectation of the boss, because my client was looking at it similarly to this one, potentially, as this is not a great thing, but we don't know. So I would suggest to this individual, have you even asked your boss from a starting perspective, like, hey, how are you experiencing me in these situations?

[Amy Gallo]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

We just had that meeting. We went back and forth like, what is it that you're experiencing? I wouldn't even attribute and assign a feeling to what the boss is feeling. Like, I don't know if he's angry or not. Let him tell you whether he's angry or not. People always tell me, you know, oh, my God, you look upset. And I'm like, I'm not upset. Like, that is just your interpretation of me. But I'm actually not upset. I'm at peace, you know, that's what it is. So there's something around kicking the tire before we sort of move to this is actually what's happening that I would want to explore or would encourage this person to explore a little bit. And then the second part that I'll just add on to what you eloquently shared and some suggestions is the other thing that he can change to change the dynamic is the emotional response that he's having to what's happening? Right? So right now he's saying, I'm leaving angry. And there is nothing wrong with being angry. Angry is not a bad emotion. Anger informs you that something feels off. So the question to me would be, what would you need to do that's in your control to no matter what happens in that discussion, no matter what the level of disagreement, you leave with another emotion that you might like feeling. Okay, Right. And so let's work on that kind of your emotional response, which then may allow you to then respond in a communication way differently when you're in the moment. So there's something around the emotional regulation that I would want him to pay attention to and have choice around, rather than the default of if somebody doesn't agree with me or whatever is triggering it, if somebody doesn't agree with me, it means I get angry.

[Co-host/Announcer]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

That doesn't have to be.

[Amy Gallo]

Well, and I think to your point, what you made me think of also is what is making him Angry. Right. Is it that he doesn't feel heard? Is it the tone that his boss uses? Like, what is it? Exactly. That's frustrating to him because then he can focus on remedying that as opposed to the entire relationship with his boss. Right. And also, I think about the leaving at the end of the day angry. It's like, is this happening in the morning and you're still angry at the end of the day? Is this. Like, is it. Are you letting this color everything to your point about emotional regulation?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right.

[Amy Gallo]

Is there a different perspective he can take on his emotional reaction that will allow him, you know, not make this eat him up all day.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. Not let it consume him.

[Amy Gallo]

Exactly. Exactly. I love your point about, like, maybe the boss is like, oh, this guy's great. Like, maybe he's like, I finally have someone who will push back, who has strong ideas, who has, you know, who knows what the boss's perspective is. And I think asking, saying, when we get into it about, you know, whatever the most common issues are, how do you see that?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah.

[Amy Gallo]

How do you wish I would approach those conversations differently?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. One thing that I'll also add is what they may not have explored yet also.

[Co-host/Announcer]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Because, like, what I want to make sure this individual doesn't hear is that. And I know you'll concur with this, Amy, like, that we shouldn't have disagreements, that we shouldn't have conflict. Right, Right. Like, let's flip the script on that. Let's expect conflict, let's expect disagreement, and let's align on when we have disagreements, how do we want to deal with them?

[Amy Gallo]

Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I think what happens a lot, the frustration is, you know, when the thing happens. Right. We get frustrated that the disagreement happens. We get frustrated that somebody has conflict with us rather than saying, no, this is part of regular human interaction. Stop wishing it away, expect it to happen, and plan for it to happen. And so come up with an alignment and agreement around the two of you. When we have disagreements, how do we want to deal with it in a way that we both leave feeling like it doesn't damage the relationship. Right. We don't have to damage the relationship as a result of conflict.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah. The strongest relationships I see between a boss and a direct report are when either one of them, either of the member of that duo has explicitly said, we are going to disagree at times. How should we handle that? And they've contracted ahead of time about what to do when that happens. And I've actually coached people who've said, oh, I know how to handle this. My boss and I have an agreement. Like when I don't agree, we'll have a private conversation. I won't bring up front of the team or I worked with one guy who they had a signal where, like, he would just sort of make a hand signal that was like, hey, I'm about to disagree. And then just put the boss in the frame of mind of like, okay, I'm about to be disagreed with. And it just helped them make that transition because there's this expectation that things will run smoothly, that we will all get along, which is like the most fall the face you just made, like your eyes widen. I think you and I have seen it probably hundreds of times about how much that torpedoes a dynamic, a relationship, a team. That assumption of like, oh, if we could just get back to where we all were smiling and nodding when that's not a place you want to be necessarily, you want to be in it with people, discussing the hard issues, pushing back, having what feels like a conflict but is really just a disagreement or debate or dissent. I think the real risk here is that our VP will decide one of two things, not address it at all. Leave angry every day. That's not going to be good for the dynamic. Or just try to smooth things over. And like, I used to be rewarded on the strength of my convictions, now I'm rewarded on staying silent. It's like, oh no, no, no. Like that's. I can pretty much guarantee that's not what your boss wants.

[Muriel Wilkins]

We'll be back with more after the break.

[Co-host/Announcer]

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[Muriel Wilkins]

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[Muriel Wilkins]

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[Muriel Wilkins]

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[Muriel Wilkins]

So next we hear from a listener that has been at her organization for over five years and she feels like she's really, really hitting her stride with her role and making an impact on the organization. But everyone keeps telling her that to move up, she has to be more visible. And so she's wondering about what the most effective ways to communicate her value to senior leaders might be, short of scheduling direct one on one meetings and trying to talk herself out up to them. Okay, so this is something that comes up a lot right around visibility and how do we get people to see the value that we actually bring?

[Amy Gallo]

I'm pretty sure we had you on Women at Work to talk about this very issue.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And it's still a problem.

[Amy Gallo]

I know somehow we didn't solve everything with that one episode. So I think the first thing implicit in this question is that she wants to move up. But I would want to check that first. That would be my very first question is, are you moving up just because the momentum is there? That's what you've been told is the right thing to do. Second, if people are telling you in order to move up, you need to be more visible, I would ask those people who are telling you, great, what suggestions do you have? Because oftentimes those will be organizational dependent. And so you want to know what are the opportunities that they see me not taking that I need to take. I like that she points out the one on ones is of course a way to have these moments. But there's much more broad, I would say, not generic, but sort of more general ways to make sure people see you. And sometimes that's asking a smart question in a meeting. Sometimes that's speaking up when you have some information. Like, I actually was working with someone who was really trying to work on speaking up in all staff meetings because they felt like they did great work behind the scenes and then never, no one ever saw it. But they were really afraid about being self promotional. They're like, well, I don't want to be one of those people who like stands up and is like talks at length about how great my project is. So we worked on like, what could you say? How do you translate what you're doing as valuable to the organization in the context of that conversation? So if they're talking about a strategic change, you could say the project we've been working on is emblematic or an exemplar of one way in which we can change. And here's how I see that. Relevance. Drawing the relevance between what you are doing and succeeding at and what the organization needs. You know, it popped into my head right now is like, that's the same advice when you interview for a job, right? Like we tell people when they interview for A job, have three, four, five stories ready that show that you have done something or you have a skill that the organization needs. And I would just think about the same thing for this woman is think about what are the stories you can tell about the work you've done, the insights you've had, the impact you've had that will be relevant to what the team or the organization is trying to do.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, no, absolutely. Like, I concur on so much of this. We should just be like dual coaching partners. Amy, I am so struck by this question because it comes up so often and you know me, like, I'm a stickler for words and what do we really mean by something? So let's start with the beginning. Like, first of all, visibility. You know, visibility is going to get you. But so far, my friend, right? Like, what does that even. I can be visible and that doesn't mean anything. I think the visibility is more around who do I need to be visible to, you know, or where. You know, that's like at the surface level. Are you in the room? Are you with the people or person? Are you at the right place at the right time? Well, all of that is so dependent. It depends on what, as you said, are you trying to move up? Are you trying to get some type of business outcome across the organization? Where and who and when you need to be visible is so contingent on what the goal is. And so for this individual, I start with, you might not need to do anything because it depends on what the goal is. So help me understand what the goal is. And from there we can figure out and problem solve for, are you visible enough that yes or no, and if not, then whom, what and where, which, as you said, they could go ask people at that point. Right. I think secondly is when you make yourself visible and you brought this word up and this to me is so, so important. It's relevancy, right, y'? All. It's not just about being visible. It's being visible in a relevant way. You have been around people who are visible but not relevant.

[Amy Gallo]

Yes, too many. But yes. Yeah, too many.

[Muriel Wilkins]

There's so many of those folks. Okay, what makes you a little bit more distinguishable is. Or a differentiating factor is the relevance factor. It's not how flashy you are. It's not innately like how special you are. It's what makes you relevant and what creates relevance. Relevance is also very subjective. It's relevant to something or to someone or. Well, in order to be relevant to anything, you need to understand what's Important to them. So as you said, how do you communicate in a way that's relevant to the organization? I would also say, depending who those stakeholders are, that you need to have visibility with because it's aligned with your objective. What is it about what you say, what you do, how you show up, et cetera, that can make it relevant to them. And let's not lose sight. In order for all of this to work in the long run, it has to be relevant to you too. If you don't care, it's not sustainable. You are going to feel like it's icky. You are going to feel like you're faking it. You're not going to do it more than one or two times and then you're going to just stop. So there's this intersection of when I am able to articulate my value for this individual, when you problem solve, solve for that or your relevancy, what's the intersection between what makes it relevant for you, the team, the stakeholder, the organization, and relevant to me? And it's that sweet spot where you now can start articulating what that message is. Without that, something breaks.

[Amy Gallo]

I'm almost picturing a spreadsheet where it's like, who do you need to be visible to? And then, you know, what do they care about? Like you have a column like, what do they care about? What matters to them? Whether that's projects, whether that's values, whatever that is you. Maybe it's like integrating AI into the organization. Like maybe it's an initiative they care about. What is the point of contact for you in that thing that they care about? Like where, where do you bring that relevance? And then what are venues, opportunities, situations in which you can actually reach them?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's stakeholder mapping.

[Amy Gallo]

Absolutely.

[Muriel Wilkins]

That's what we're doing. Some people don't feel like they can do it for themselves. They can do it when it's a change project or for. But it's like you are your change project.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah, yeah, well. And it's ultimately not about self promotion. And I've sort of assumed this person doesn't want to be self promotional, which honestly is. Is probably a little bit of gender bias because I think we often assume it's women who struggle to be self. Promotional. But a lot of people feel uncomfortable about that. That stakeholder mapping is not self promotional. It's truly how do I deliver the thing to the person who needs it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah.

[Amy Gallo]

And how do I deliver it in a way that they can receive it? The other thing I would say, in addition to asking people who are telling her, you need to be more visible, like, okay, how would you suggest I do that? I think I would also ask, how did you do that? Because I'm assuming these people are more senior than her, so they've gotten to that position that perhaps she's trying to move up to. So what have you done? And then to watch. You know, I do this a lot when I'm in meetings where I'll watch people do something, whether it's frame an issue, whether it's be more visible, whether it's behave like a leader. And I often make mental notes like, oh, I could do that. That would feel comfortable and authentic to me. And then someone will do something. I'll be like, nope, would never do that. Not because it's not successful, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Right. It's not aligned with my values. Or so that's the other. Start observing people who you see being visible and try to pick up tips. Right. Like, how did they phrase that? How did they position themselves in the room? How did they draw the connection between what they were working on and what others were working on? And can you emulate a little bit of that? Not, you know, copy and paste, but can you integrate some of those tactics into your own repertoire?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, I mean, this whole notion of advocating for yourself being more visible, self promotion, networking, however you call it, often gives people, again, the ick. And I do think there's a place, as you just said, around like, yeah, let me see what others are doing. And is there something that I can learn from that feels comfortable for me and therefore I can do it? And then other places where it's like, oh, yeah, I wouldn't. With one caveat, and this is something I encourage a lot of my clients, or I kind of challenge them on this. Even when you see what somebody else is doing and your reaction or response is, oh, yeah, no, not me. It runs counter to my values, et cetera. I still want us to kick the tire on.

[Co-host/Announcer]

Why not?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right. Because sometimes it is a habitual response and a conditioned and a learned behavior that might not, or belief about that approach that is not serving us well. I had something happen recently where my son sent an email out to, you know, he's looking for a summer job. Summer internship.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And he asked me for feedback on an email that he was gonna send out to some folks, and I didn't get a chance to respond to him timely enough for him. He ended up sending the email out and When I read it, like, he literally, he copied a bunch of people and he'd sort of made it very visible what the issue is. And my, my first reaction was like, you know, like, clutch my pearls. But I realized, oh, like I was reacting from a place of how. What would have felt uncomfortable to me. And actually after a couple of minutes of thinking about it, I was like, actually, like, what he has done is quite masterful and is gonna get him really far. And it is my own issue that I wouldn't do something like that. But in reality, what he's doing is advocating.

[Amy Gallo]

Right, Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And so maybe I can learn from that and maybe I can do a little bit more of that, even though I might feel uncomfortable. And so I think before we sort of put the kibosh on, oh, it doesn't sit right with me, let's explore why it doesn't sit right and where that comes from before we say no. Right. Actually, maybe that might be the path to move forward. So just something for this individual to also think about and all of us to think about as well.

[Amy Gallo]

I immediately think of Erminia Barra's work. Fake it till you make it. I can't remember the exact phrase she uses, but it's like, there might be things that you're like, I could never do that, or, that's not me, but try it on, see how it works. Like, could you do it? And I like that. Questioning instead of my first instinct of like, oh, no, I would never do that. Like questioning could I? And what's a different way to see this?

[Muriel Wilkins]

I have to admit, I love Armenia Barra's work and maybe I should examine my own little, you know, cringiness with the fake it till you make it. I have heard a reframe of that. I think the first place I heard it. And I'm not sure if she is the one who created it, but from Melody Beatty's work, who writes her a lot around codependency, she uses the what if? Right. So what if it was okay for me to do this? What if it was okay for me to talk about my work? How would I act? What if it was okay for me to send that email? What if it was okay for me to speak up at that meeting? What if it was okay to self promote? How would I act? Right. So it's the what if and act as though what if. Right. Because when you act as though what if? It actually happens, it's no longer a what if.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah. And if you go in with an experimental mindset, the only thing you can learn is that it didn't work.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Exactly. I always say we're always testing hypotheses

[Juan Naula]

out, is what we're doing.

[Amy Gallo]

That's right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

We'll be back with more after the break.

[Co-host/Announcer]

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[Muriel Wilkins]

so our last question today. It's a question about feedback, which can always be tricky and steeped in our own biases and about both giving and receiving feedback. This leader has recently received feedback in A360 that their leadership style is too harsh and that it's hurting team morale. She doesn't really agree with the assessment, so she's finding it hard to try to wrap her head around how to improve the situation. Can she just try and better explain to the people on her team that she has good intentions or should she be doing something else as it relates to this feedback that she got?

[Amy Gallo]

I have to laugh because I love the idea of like you're not really hurt because I have good intention, right? Like the whole, the difference between the intention impact. That's where I would really start with this person, right? It's like you probably do have good intentions. Very few people actually go into work thinking they're going to hurt others or that they're going to be Harsh or that they, you know, they think I'm going to be direct or I'm going to be honest, or, you know, some people may think, well, I'm being a little petty, but they're not going to think I'm here to hurt. So, of course your intentions are good. However, if this were one person's perspective, right. If you were getting direct feedback from your boss who said, you're too harsh, then I would say, okay, you can question that in a 360. I feel like, okay, we've got group consensus now that you are coming.

[Co-host/Announcer]

There's a story.

[Muriel Wilkins]

There's a story, There's a pattern.

[Amy Gallo]

Exactly. Well, and what I love to tell people who I coach is, like, there is a perception. We can debate till the end of time whether you're too harsh or not, but the definition of too is going to be very variable. So let's just agree there is a perception that you are too harsh, and let's work on changing that, which will probably include in changing your behavior. But maybe not. Maybe it's really just about changing the perception. So I sort of teased her a little bit in the beginning of my answer of like, yeah, yeah, your good intentions are going to make up for all of it. But I would try to make your good intentions much more clear. And before you are diving into a conversation, before you're starting to say, that won't work, or, I need better ideas, whatever comes off as too harsh. And I'm assuming, let's hope the360 has a few examples of that. That maybe you start by saying, listen, I'm going to push back here because I think we can do better as a team, and I'm really invested in our success. Right. Saying something as simple as that, like, what's your motivation? Why are you about to do what you're about to do, as opposed to just diving in, I do think helps people frame what might feel otherwise harsh or dismissive or whatever the feeling is that they have, it might help them hear it a little bit better.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. I mean, there's so much here, right? So anecdotally, this whole notion of, like, perception is key because part of it is you have to determine whether you care how you are perceived to even determine if this person is coachable. Right. Whenever I conduct 360s or if a client has done 360s, or if they've gotten feedback and I've gathered that feedback, I always say I'm actually not really quite sure how coachable somebody is until they are dealing with not just what they think about themselves, but what others think about themselves. Not to say that it's grounded. You know, people say, oh, perception is reality. Not really. Perception is their reality. Right? And then you have your reality, and then you have to decide what you want to do with that, you know, and you have to hold it loosely because we have to sort of understand we work with other people and their perception will impact the dynamic. And so how much do we want to work with that? And some people are afraid of working with perception of others because somehow they think they're going to lose a part of themselves in the process. And I don't think that's the case. I think perception is perception. It happens. That's their reality. How can you hold the both and what I think about myself and what they think about themselves? And how do we get to, you know, again, that intersection? And I'm a little tickled by this right now because I was. I don't know why I'm bringing up my kids a lot today, but I was talking to one of them yesterday, and they said, I just don't feel like being perceived right now. And I was like, wait, wait, roll that tape back. Like, what does that even mean? Right? And they were like, I just don't want to be perceived right now. And I said, well, what does that mean? They said, I need to just go be someplace right now alone, where nobody is. I'm not feeling like anybody's perceiving me. And that, to me, you know, in all seriousness, kind of is a realization that, yes, I am constantly being perceived, and do I have the capacity to deal with that, to respond to it in a way that uplifts whatever. Again, my goal is. So in this particular situation, I think your point, Amy, around grounding it in. I want us as a team. And if that's indeed what she wants, right. I want us in a team to have higher morale. Dah, dah, dah. Let me take ownership for my part, right? 100% responsibility for my part, which is the way that I behave and what my intent is. Here's my intent. Here's how I want it to land on you. But more importantly, or not more importantly, as equally importantly, I'm interested in how you feel and what would make morale feel higher from you and what can I do, you know, in the words of Marshall Goldsmith, like, what's the feed forward? What would you need to see from me that would increase the chances of you feeling more energized? Whatever it is that they want to feel in this group, and then let me decide, here's what I can do, here's what I can't do. Right. So I think all of that kind of starts to tighten the gap between intent and impact and brings it back to the individual around what is in her control, what's her responsibility. I think what's key here that we haven't really talked about as well is she's a manager. Right?

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Yep.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay. Because there is sometimes this like, well, why do I need to do that? And I'm like, so you have chosen to lead, Right. And with leading comes a little specific bullet point in your job description and responsibility that may not come up in other people's bullet point, and that is that you are responsible for leading the team and ensuring that they want to come to work and that there is a level of engagement and that they feel motivated and inspired. And yes, that might not be fully in your control, but yet you play. And the research bears it out a critical role in increasing the probability of that being true. That is why, leader, this should be part of your job description and as important as delivering the results. Right. It is part of the business results. So even expanding the mindset of like, oh, this is actually part of my responsibility, rather than an extracurricular activity is key. Right. It's not a nice to have and what do I want to do with it? But again, letting her own that decision, because at the end of the day, if she's like, quite frankly, it doesn't really matter to me that they feel this way and I'm not going to do anything differently, then there is no coaching to be had and there is no discussion to be had and there is nothing different to do. Just don't expect different results on your next 360.

[Amy Gallo]

Well, and I would add that I think that that's definitely true when you're a leader, but it's true no matter. I mean, all of us work on teams. It's rare you're in just an individual job where you don't interact with others. I would say it doesn't exist anymore. I would say if you are part of a team getting along with others now, that doesn't mean laughing and joking and going out on the weekend, but collaborating so that people don't feel like you're being. What did she say? Too harsh and hurting team morale is part of your job, leader or not? When I work with managers, you know, who are managing someone who the rest of the team finds difficult, I always ask that manager, have you Made it exciting, explicit that a key part of their job is to work with others. Well, if you haven't made that explicit, you need to. And I think that's what this woman needs to know, is that this is part of your job, whether you're a leader, manager. It's an essential part of being a member of a team. And so deciding you don't want to do that for whatever reason, you have to embrace that. And you may be fantastic at the technical parts of your job or pushing things forward or getting decisions made, whatever it is, but if you can't do that in collaboration with others, then you're not going to succeed. So figure out what it is that's holding you back from having those collaborative interactions and start to solve for that. And it might be, you know, again, I think about leadership unblocked. It might be some of the beliefs you have about what it means.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right. I mean, Amy Gallo, we have a whole book here on the hidden blockers getting along. That's right.

[Amy Gallo]

Oh, my God. It's a collab.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Our two words. A collab. A collab. All right, I'm feeling it. I'm feeling it. Okay. All right, Amy, quick question for you. On a personal level.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

What's a piece of advice you are often giving others in their careers that is hard for you to follow yourself?

[Amy Gallo]

I mean, honestly, pretty much everything I find, because I find in the work that you and I do, when you're in your best self, like when you're in the moment we're in, it's so easy to say, do this, do that. But when you're in the moment, it takes so much emotional regulation, and sometimes I'm just not emotionally regulated. So, to be specific, there's one thing. You know, I talk a lot, and I've been talking about this a lot lately, of weighing the costs of not speaking up versus the cost of speaking up. And I am guilty as anyone, of in the moment when I'm like, oh, I really got tell Muriel what she said was too harsh. But in that moment, I'm like, yeah, it would just be easier to let things go. And so I think that's the advice. I overestimate the ease of staying quiet and the comfort of that versus the consequence of saying something that might be disruptive, slow things down, might even damage our relationship a little. And I. I'm practicing it all the time, but it's something I still want to get better at.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And as I always say, the magic is actually in the practice, not in

[Amy Gallo]

the nailing it well, and especially with something like this, because nailing it is almost an impossibility because the rupture is where the learning is. And that's not. You'll never feel like you're going to nail it if you're intentionally, you know, making things unsettling for yourself and for another person. If you're saying, I'm willing, but you're also saying, I trust you and I'm invested enough in this dynamic, this relationship to take this risk right now. So if you do that, you are nailing it. It's just gonna feel so messy.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love this so much, Amy. We could keep going on and on and on. I hope you'll come back 100%, Tom.

[Amy Gallo]

I'm ready tomorrow if you've got.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Such a pleasure to have you. Amy Gallo, author of Getting how to Work With Everyone, Even Difficult People, also my friend. And thank you so, so much for being here with me today.

[Amy Gallo]

Thank you, Muriel.

[Co-host/Announcer]

All right, y', all, we will see you next time with another episode of Coaching Real Leaders. And when that one drops, it'll be another coaching leader session. If you want to unpack the episodes from Coaching Real Leaders, you can join

[Muriel Wilkins]

me at coachingrealeaderscommunity.com where I host live discussions about coaching sessions you hear on this podcast. And I also answer questions just like I do here, but you can ask them directly of me and you can

[Co-host/Announcer]

also follow me on LinkedIn.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Muriel Mignon Wilkins on Instagram oachmeorial Wilkins, a reminder that if you love these

[Co-host/Announcer]

coaching conversations, it would mean the world

[Muriel Wilkins]

to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcast so that you can

[Co-host/Announcer]

subscribe to the show. And please, please, please leave a five star review. Thank you to my producer Mary Dew, sound editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian

[Muriel Wilkins]

Campbell, and my chief of staff, Emily Sofa. Much gratitude to the leaders who joined

[Co-host/Announcer]

me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.