Ask Muriel Anything with Special Guest Dave Stachowiak

Summary

---

Coaching Real Leaders: Ask Muriel Anything with Special Guest Dave Stachowiak

Host: Muriel Wilkins (Harvard Business Review)
Guest: Dave Stachowiak (Host of Coaching for Leaders)
Date: April 13, 2026

Episode Overview

This “Ask Muriel Anything” edition features an insightful discussion between host Muriel Wilkins and respected leadership coach Dave Stachowiak. Drawing on listener questions and real coaching scenarios, Muriel and Dave explore career advancement challenges, how to identify non-negotiables when considering big career moves, and effective leadership through volatile organizational change. Through practical frameworks and honest dialogue, the conversation offers clear strategies and fresh perspectives for leaders facing their own inflection points.

---

Dave’s Coaching Philosophy and Groundwork (03:10–05:59)

• Focus on Inflection Points: Dave specializes in helping leaders thrive during career turning points—whether a new role, feedback, or major change.
• Behavioral Change: Drawing from Marshall Goldsmith, Dave notes:

  “The higher you go, the more your challenges become behavioral.” (03:37)

• Consistency Over Intensity: Dave emphasizes sustainable progress through small, consistent steps rather than radical, short-lived changes.

  “I’m a huge believer in consistency over intensity. ...What’s actually easier and more successful in the long term is to take small steps, test things, try things out, get small wins.” (04:57)

---

Q1: Am I Being Held Back Because I’m a High Performer? (06:00–18:06)

Summary of the Question:
A high-performing listener wonders whether they're being “held back” by their boss—possibly because their value to the team makes their manager reluctant to see them move on, even as they get positive reviews.

Key Insights

• Yes, It Happens: Both hosts agree; managers sometimes—intentionally or not—hold on to top performers due to team needs or lack of a succession plan.

  “I do think this happens... sometimes with the best intentions.” —Dave (06:44)

• Don’t Rely Solely on Your Boss:

  “We should all assume that our boss is holding us back… We should never put all of our career aspirations... in the hands of simply one person.” —Dave (08:25)

• Diversify Relationships:
  Build a broad network within and beyond your immediate team. Get involved in mentoring, cross-functional projects, or informal meetups.

  “Use that equity that you have... to build out other relationships so that you have more than one person advocating for you...” —Muriel (11:10)

• Test the Waters:
  Open a low-risk conversation with your manager about development. If the manager’s support is genuine, they’ll engage with you. If not, it signals to broaden your advocacy network.

  “In the spirit of starting small... say, ‘I would love to have a conversation about my development plan.’... How does that manager respond to that request?” —Dave (12:14)

• Name the Elephant (Gently):

  “I’m a big fan of naming the elephant in the room without letting that elephant be too heavy...” —Muriel (13:53)

• Mitigate Their Risk:
  Demonstrate to your boss how building redundancy (training others, documenting processes) benefits both of you and the organization.

  “How can I help you—help me help you—in terms of lessening the risk?... Should we have conversations around succession?” —Muriel (15:10)

• Leverage Sponsors:
  If direct advocacy with your manager doesn’t work, rely on other influential colleagues to advocate for you behind the scenes.
• Gather Data Points:
  Collaborate with others who might provide insight into your manager’s behavior and the real dynamics.

Memorable Quotes

• “If you’re getting great feedback but not moving, start thinking about, ‘Who else in the organization do I need to build relationships with?’” —Dave (10:09)
• “What happens when your champion leaves the company? ...It’s much harder to climb out of that than to plan for it.” —Muriel (11:10)
• “You don’t know what you don’t know, so you better find out.” —Dave (17:54)

---

Q2: How Do I Determine My Non-Negotiables When Considering a Big Career Shift? (21:29–33:51)

Summary of the Question:
A leader with a long tenure and a strong internal reputation is considering a major move for a higher position, but is unsure how to prioritize what matters most and ensure the decision feels “right.”

Key Insights

• You’ll Never Know for Certain:

  “We never really know until we get into a role.” —Dave (22:25)

• Don't Just Consider What Brings Joy:

  “What makes you angry? What irritates you? What drove you nuts about a prior job?” —Dave (23:08)

• Learning from discomfort surfaces core values better than just “what lights me up.”
• Write Down and Test Your List:
  • List all wishes for the next role.
  • Circle the true non-negotiables (can’t be everything!).
  • Reflect: Are they realistic? Under your control? Observable/measurable?

  “If you don’t write it down, it’s so easy to get caught up in the honeymoon phase and ignore your non-negotiables.” —Dave (29:03)

• Compare with Your Current Role:
  Don’t overlook what you already have—sometimes you can fulfill your non-negotiables by evolving your current position rather than leaving.

  “I had someone go through this, realized her non-negotiable was managing a bigger team—she advocated for it internally and made it happen.” —Muriel (32:03)

• There Are Always Trade-offs:
  Acknowledge that you’ll be gaining and losing something with any significant shift.

Memorable Quotes

• “List your non-negotiables—but be specific. For example, ‘I want to feel valued’ isn’t enough; define how you’ll observe or measure that.” —Muriel (26:18)
• “You might find the very thing you’re leaving to gain can be cultivated where you are now.” —Muriel (32:03)

---

Q3: How Do I Lead Effectively When Priorities from Leadership Keep Changing? (35:41–47:36)

Summary of the Question:
A mid-level leader keeps her team aligned around a vision—but top leadership often changes direction, launching shifting priorities with little warning. How can she lead effectively amid this volatility?

Key Insights

• Appeal to the Nobler Motive:
  Anchor your team in the deeper purpose so daily volatility doesn’t erode meaning.
  • Story: Dave recalls aerospace leaders who rallied teams around, “Build it like you will fly it.” (38:37)

  “Start by finding the nobler motive. What’s the big picture? ...There’s always a nobler motive.” —Dave (40:32)

• Name and Normalize Change:
  Routinely remind your team that some priorities will change, but the underlying purpose remains.
• Help the Team Build Resilience:
  Use frequent reminders, rituals (“open meetings with the big picture”), and realistic expectations to help your team adapt to ongoing flux.

  “Maybe every day, you send an email or start meetings by reminding the team of the nobler motive.” —Muriel (41:31)

• Resource for Change:
  Like increasing pace on a treadmill—either build your capacity or support structures for your team.

  “If the treadmill speeds up, what resources do you use: Do you need to bring in help? Lower the incline? Jump off and on?” —Muriel (43:01)

• Consider Upward Feedback:
  If change from above is truly undermining strategy or sustainability, use your credibility to share the downstream impact with upper management.

  “Show leadership the impact in a language that resonates: engagement scores, attrition, risk to outcomes.” —Muriel (44:55)

• Resist Wisely:
  Sometimes you may need to “ask someone to stop pushing the speed button” if volatility undermines the larger mission.

  “All these things I’m being asked to do—are they still serving the nobler motive? If not, we owe it to point that out to our leaders.” —Dave (45:58)

Notable Quotes

• “This is just the nature of work right now—it’s the nature of leadership. ...But frame change by returning to the big picture.” —Dave (37:40)
• “If your focus is on resisting the constant change, it’s just going to make it worse.” —Muriel (43:01)
• “If what leadership is asking gets in the way of the nobler motive, that’s the time to start the hard conversation.” —Dave (45:58)

---

Episode Close & Where to Find More (47:36–end)

• Listeners are invited to find Dave at Coaching4Leaders.com or on any podcast app.
• Dave recommends episode 756 of Coaching for Leaders for further insights from Muriel on belonging and impostor feelings.

  “We had a brilliant conversation from your book Leadership Unblocked... about what it feels like when you don’t belong.” —Dave (47:59)

• Muriel hosts live Q&As and community discussions at CoachingRealLeadersCommunity.com.

---

Episode Takeaways

• Never anchor your career to a single sponsor—diversify relationships and advocacy inside and outside your organization.
• Clarify your non-negotiables, validate them against reality, and write them down—especially when considering changes.
• Frame turbulence through purpose; turn volatility into collective resilience by constantly reaffirming the ‘nobler motive.’

For deeper dives and to connect directly with Muriel’s community, follow her on LinkedIn and join the live discussions.

---

Transcript

[Vanta Announcer]

Security program on spreadsheets, new regulations piling up and audit dread. It's time for Vanta. Vanta automates security and compliance, brings evidence into one place and cuts audit prep by 82%. Less manual work, clearer visibility, faster deals, zero chaos. Call it compliance or call it compliance.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Get it.

[Vanta Announcer]

Join the 15,000 companies using Vanta to prove trust. Go to vanta.com calm.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Hi there. I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Ask Muriel. Anything from Coaching Real Leaders. In these episodes, I'm joined by some special guests who are also friends, and they help me field questions that have come in from the Coaching Real Leaders community or that bubble up in my client work. Today we are joined by my friend of the show and a coach I really respect, Dave Stahoviak. You may have heard him. He is the host of what I consider my elder sibling podcast, Coaching for Leaders. Check it out if you haven't already. He also runs the Coaching for Leaders Academy that provides structured group coaching and he previously spent years as an executive vice president at Dale Carnegie of Southern Los Angeles. Dave, thanks for being here with me.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Muriel. What a joy. I'm so excited to be here for this conversation. It's always so fun to talk to you.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I have to share a little bit of background about us. I mean, I remember you interviewing me for the first time years and years ago when I wrote my first book. And then, yeah, years later when I started my podcast, I remember reaching out to you and saying, dave, I'm starting a podcast. And the name that we have come up with, I don't want you to be alarmed when you see it. It's called Coaching Real Leaders. And your podcast is called Coaching for Leaders. Like, I don't want you to feel a certain type of way. And you were so gracious. Your response basically was like, oh my gosh, congratulations. How can I help you? And since then, we've had multiple conversations.

[Dave Stachoviak]

We have.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And I consider you a friend, which is why I wanted to invite you to share in this conversation with the questions that we have that come in from folks.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Well, I am so glad that you are doing this. I am so glad this show has gotten so much traction and it's so different than Coaching for Leaders in what you do. And I love it's such a great compliment to this. So thank you.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yes. That's why I say we're siblings, but different, you know, and so you've truly been an inspiration. So let's dig into some of these questions that we get from listeners. Again, these are questions that we get not only from listeners of the podcast, but from people who are part of the Coaching Real Leaders community as well as those that show up in my LinkedIn box. I'm sure you get a bunch of questions in your inbox as well.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Oh, yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And those that show up with my actual coaching clients that I work with on a day to day basis. Before we dive into those, I do want to get a little bit of your thinking around something, Dave, which is is there anything about your coaching philosophy or style that you think would be helpful for the Coaching Real Leaders listeners to know or understand? Because that might give them a little bit of framing in terms of how you respond. Some of these questions.

[Dave Stachoviak]

My work is to help leaders thrive at inflection points. We all hit inflection points in our careers and oftentimes it is a new role, it's a new opportunity, it's a new initiative, it's feedback that we've received. And like our pal Marshall Goldsmith says all the time, the higher you go, the more your challenges become behavioral. And so the work that I'm doing is helping people to put into action and movement the things that they already know they want to do. The kinds of folks I work with I think are actually very similar to the kinds of folks you work with. Muriel show up and they say, hey, I know where to find information. I listen to podcasts, I read books, I know what I need to do. I've gotten feedback. What I need to do is actually put it into practice and make it a part of my behavior and build my confidence in doing it too. And so almost all of my work really indexes on structure, behavior change, consistency, helping us to build confidence and have wins. And I'm a huge believer in consistency over intensity. I think oftentimes when we come to inflection points, we feel like we need to change everything because we receive some feedback and there's a time and a place for making a massive shift. But for behavior change and for it to be sustainable, I find what's actually easier and more successful in the long term is to take small steps, test things, try things out, get small wins, get feedback. It's very much like the lean startup model, but for behavior change in people. And so I'm a big believer in small steps. And one of the biggest challenges I have with the people I work with is trying to get people to do less tactically. Like, yes, have very high expectations for your vision and goals and outcomes in your team. But as far as what you do today, tactically, one thing Five minutes. Let's start.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, I love that. I love the framing of consistency over intensity. And I wrote it down because I'm gonna. I have a couple of clients that I probably could help them understand the approach a little bit more with that. A lot of small steps add up to the big step rather than, oh, my gosh, you know, let me dive in, go in a 300%, and then fizzle out.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Yeah, Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, great. So let's use all that and channel it so we can help these folks with some of the challenges that they're facing. So the first question we have, this person says that they've gotten good reviews and good feedback from their boss, but their career growth is really stalled, and they're wondering if maybe the boss is doing something behind the scenes to hold them back. Maybe a bit of the problem is why should they want to lose a high performer? So basically, they're asking, like, am I being held back because I'm a high performer? I mean, that can feel. Oh, I don't know. How does that question even make you feel, Dave?

[Dave Stachoviak]

Well, my first thought is, yeah, I do think that happens sometimes. And I think it happens sometimes with the best of intentions that the leader who's managing that person might think I'm doing everything I can to help this person and help them grow, but unconsciously, in the back of their minds, knows if I lose this person, it's going to be a huge transition for me and my team. And so I may not proactively do some of the things that I would have normally done because I don't have a succession plan or I don't have someone to take this role. So, yeah, I do think this happens both intentionally and unintentionally.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I think the reality of it is, you know, we can all live in a fantasy world that you are always going to get advanced when the time comes, or folks are going to support you, you to move somewhere else, whether it's internally at a company or externally, because the time is right. But the reality of it is those folks who have to make those decisions also want to make sure that they continue being successful in what they're doing and might put that agenda and actually the business agenda over yours. Right. I think the question is, how do we get the intersection between what might be the boss's agenda with the business agenda aligned with this person's as well, which is their agenda to kind of move into a different role. The good news is they're high performers.

[Sponsor Voice]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So I Think we'd be having a very different conversation if they were low performers, which is a little harder. So, okay, so let's dig in and try to help them. I'd love to hear from you. How would you coach this individual and in what areas would you have them focus on to kind of move through this?

[Dave Stachoviak]

I have a big picture thought on mindset about this first. And this is not just for this person, but I think it's actually for all of us. I think we should all assume that our boss is holding us back. And here's why I say that. Because one, sometimes it's true to the point we just made. But also, I don't think any time for any of us, we should ever put all of our career aspirations, hopes, plans, whatever, in the hands of simply one person. That's just not a smart, strategic thing for us to do. And sometimes, even when that person is amazing, even when that person is advocating for us in every room that we're not in, even when that person is opening up doors that we don't know about, they are, at the end of the day, just one person. And we don't know how is our boss perceived in those rooms? How is our boss missing blind spots and opportunities? What if our Boss leaves in 90 days? They're our greatest advocate, but all of a sudden they're in a different part of the company or a different firm. And so even in a best case scenario, I don't think it's wise for any of us to like, put all of our eggs in one basket with our manager. Now that said, it's a very important relationship and we should of course do whatever we can to build that relationship. But the first thought I have is like, if there's a sense that, like, hey, I'm doing all the right things, I. I'm a high performer, I'm getting great feedback, but I don't seem to be moving in the direction I want to go. One of the things that I would invite this listener to do is start thinking about who else in the organization are the people to begin building relationships? Who else in the industry are the people that begin building relationships? Are you involved in the mentoring program that's formally sponsored? Are you involved in mentoring? That has nothing to do with any formal mentoring program, but just getting in front of people and showing up for conversations, showing up for opportunities for meetings that may be, you know, you don't have to be at, but are opportunities to contribute in other ways. And so I like to think about this really broadly of looking across the organization, because I just think that's something we should all be doing anyway.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I love this so much. And I mean, this is why you're one of my phone a friend phone coaches. Because it expands, you know, each other in terms of being able to understand how to look at a problem. And what I hear you saying here is not just looking at it at the micro level, which is the way that the question is framed, but really zooming out and looking at. At a macro level. What's coming up for me as you're sharing this is like, don't put your eggs all in one basket, meaning diversify your portfolio of people who can support you. And I've certainly had a lot of clients where that has happened.

[Sponsor Voice]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

The person who was championing them leaves the company and then what?

[Dave Stachoviak]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So it's very real, you know, and it's much harder to kind of climb out of that versus plan for it proactively. So I think your suggestion around, hey, there's another lesson learned here. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. No matter how great that relationship is, no matter how much of a high performer you are, use that equity that you have in terms of your performance to build out other relationships so that you have more than one person advocating for you or that can influence the very person who may be, you know, quote unquote, holding you back. Right. Okay, so that's big picture. Let's dial in and say, okay, but here's the here and now. This individual suspects that. Suspects, we're not quite sure that they might be being held back because of how great they are. What should they do? You know, in the spirit of what's the little step that they can take in the next week or in the next couple of weeks. What recommendations would you have?

[Dave Stachoviak]

Yeah, I'm going to assume for the purpose of this conversation that this person has a good relationship with their manager. They're a high performer. That kind of sounds like the context of what we're talking about. I think one thing to do is just to, in the spirit of like starting small, is open up the door for a conversation. So whether it is at a next one on one or the review or whatever that normal cadences of conversation is. I think it'd be interesting to see, like what happens if you open up the conversation and say, hey, I would. If you're open to it. Love to have a conversation with you about what the next six months look like. As far as my development plan or goals or what the Next year looks like. And here's a couple of things that I'm thinking about. And would you be open to a conversation about that at our next one on one and if I brought you a couple of ideas in the spirit of like, testing the waters a little bit of like. Okay, because I'd be really interested. How does that manager respond to that request? Is there a oh, great. Yes, let's do that. Cool. Great. There's an open door or is there a bunch of like, backpedaling? Or there's a yes in the moment, but then when the conversation actually happens, all of a sudden it gets moved off the agenda and it never seems to come up. And again, could be unconscious. May not necessarily be like someone trying to like, put an obstacle there. But I think for me, I like to test the waters a bit and see, like, okay, what's going on? Like, is this a. Just like, I'm not thinking about it, it's an oversight and like we could have a conversation or is there something else that maybe is an indicator to me that I actually do really need to think about other people in the organization and other opportunities and relationships more effectively?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I love that. You know, I might add, you know, I'm a big fan of naming the elephant in the room without letting that elephant be too heavy. Yeah, yeah. That it takes up all the space. And what I hear also in this individual, in terms of the question is there is a, you know, a suspicion about what might be getting in the way. It's not an assertion. Right. It's an assumption. And so I think in addition to what I would add to that one on one meeting that you just said suggested is that they name it, you know, and. But they name it lightly with their manager and they say, hey, listen, like, I've been thinking about my performance and the feedback I've gotten. It sounds like I'm doing well. I am interested in advancing in my career or having new development opportunities. So I want to talk about my development. And you know, I've been thinking a little bit about something, but I want to check myself to make sure that this is not the case. And if it is, how do we move forward? You know, I know there are needs for this division and I know that I play a part that's critical. What is your sense manager around how much me being here might be holding me back from moving into other areas. Right.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Because what that can open up the door to is for this individual to talk to the manager around, like, how can I help you like, help me help you in terms of lessening the risk that is all placed on me as this high performer, which opens up the door for. We should be having secession conversations, right? Like, what do you want me to do to train up the next people on my team to make sure that I am a little bit redundant? Like, this individual needs to create some redundancy in them or create systems and processes so that it lessens the risk if there indeed is a risk of them not being there, because guess what? They would not not be there just because they got the next role. Like, what if something happens to them, you know, in the next week or so, God forbid? And so this is a bigger issue beyond another position. It also begs the question around, in what way are you creating systems and structures and a bench to make sure that no matter how you leave at some point, that that's there and helps everybody, not just you.

[Dave Stachoviak]

I love everything you just said, and I'm thinking about it in the context of either one conversation or one or two or three conversations. And I think the deciding factor for me would be how does that person respond as you start having that conversation? If that person's a safe person, you have a great relationship. You get a good response. Great. Like everything you just said. Yes. Like, have that conversation right away. If there's a little bit more of, like, I'm not sure. Not sure how safe this person is, I don't know about this relationship, then personally, I'd move a little slower. You kind of test things out. You're like, all right, if I start just opening the door here, what do I hear? And either way, then you kind of know, all right, here's where I'm going.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. And I think this goes back to where we started off when you said, make sure you have other people you lean on. What I've seen happen many times with folks that I coach who are in a similar situation. Maybe they can't get through directly with their manager, but they have a relationship with somebody else who can then influence their manager and who will do so on their behalf. Right. This is what happens with sponsoring. But if you can have somebody else who understands that this dynamic might be happening, they might be able to influence your manager and say, hey, listen, like, it might be time. Like, let's talk about how you can provide that person with those opportunities and put a little, you know, a little weight on.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Yeah, I love having more data points. And one of the nice things is if you have done that, sometimes you'll go to someone else in the organization and they'll say something like, oh yeah, like they're doing a ton of advocating for you behind the scenes and oh, this is just kind of the way this person works. And you're like, great. Amazing.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Exactly. You don't know what you don't know,

[Dave Stachoviak]

so you better find out. You better find out. Or sometimes it's the opposite. They're like, oh yeah, this person hangs on to people for seven years. And so you're like, okay, good to know. Now I can like start to do the work right?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. We'll be right back after this.

[Sponsor Voice]

I can't tell you how many times I've been scrolling looking for a new outfit or a gift for a friend and I finally find the perfect thing. But then I get to the checkout and lose all my steam when it starts asking me to sign in or manually add my credit card number picture. An easy solve for that. A purple pay button at checkout that has all of your information saved, making checking out as simple as a simple tap of your screen. No need to dig out your wallet or reset your password. Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling and tackle all those important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out what platform is hosting the tool that you need. Everything is all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother. See less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their Shop Pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com coachingrealeaders go to shopify.com coachingrealeaders that's shopify.com coachingrealeAders thanks to HomeServe for sponsoring this episode. You protect your belongings, your car and even your phone. But what about your home? It's such a huge investment and when things go wrong, the costs are no joke. But that's where HomeServe can come in. Regular homeowners insurance usually don't cover a lot of the day to day wear and tear on a home. From plumbing failures to AC breakdowns, you can be stuck on your own. For those, HomeServe is like a subscription for your home. For as little as $4.99 a month,

[Muriel Wilkins]

they've got your back.

[Sponsor Voice]

When you're in a pinch, you could search for a contractor in A panic. Or you could go straight to the HomeServe 24. 7 hotline to schedule a repair. Choose a plan for your needs and budget and when something on your plan goes wrong, just call their 24.7hotline to start the repair process. They've helped homeowners like you for over 20 years with a trusted national network of 2,600 local contractors. With 4.5 million customers and a 4.8 out of 5 post repair rating and an A BBB rating.

[Muriel Wilkins]

They're the real deal.

[Sponsor Voice]

If I had needed this, HomeServe is what I'd use. It makes me think of that time when my furnace broke down and goodness knows what an expensive repair that can be. If I'd had a plan from HomeServe, it would have saved me a lot of stress. Help protect your home systems and your wallet with HomeServe against covered repairs. Plans start at just $4.99 a month. Go to HomeServe.com to find the plan that's right for you. Not available everywhere. Most plans range between $4.99 to $11.99 a month. Your First Year Terms apply on covered repairs.

[Muriel Wilkins]

This is about considering a new job or maybe even after you've been hired. This leader is very seriously considering a big shift, leaving a company she's been at for a long time where she is well liked and she's thinking about taking a plunge somewhere else. She has a good offer on the table and it would be a larger role. But like with anything, there are trade offs and she's struggling with trying to prioritize what it is that she really wants. So she's asking, here's the question. How do I determine my non negotiables when it comes to making a big career choice? And you know, Dave, I think underlying this, it's also a question of how to know that the choice that you make is the right choice for you. Okay.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. So, yeah, we'd love to hear your thoughts on this on non negotiables. And how do we ever know if we're making the right choice, particularly if it's a big one when it comes to our work lives.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Well, the good and bad news, I suppose is we never really know until we get into a role. Like there's just. I mean, can I just say that out loud is you can say it because sometimes you do everything right. You do all your work, you put all the structure in, you talk with the hiring person like, and then you get hired. And then to our last conversation three weeks later, that manager changes, and it's a different situation, and it's a different set of expectations, good or bad. And so I think part of this is also you can do all the work, and sometimes you're going to show up, and there's always going to be things that are unexpected or happen, and that is just the nature of work in life. Right. That said, I actually think about this question really differently than I probably would have six months ago, because I had Margaret Andrews on our show who wrote the book Manage Yourself to Lead Others. She does this course at Harvard that's really, like, cool on. Oh, you do? Okay, great. And. And she has, like, six questions on helping people to figure things out. And one of the things that she talks about is that if you're trying to figure out, like, what's important to you and what your values are, our tendency is to think about what brings me joy, what lights me up, what gets me in the flow. And like, yes, to all those things, we should all think about those. And one of the things she invites people to think about is what makes you angry, what irritates you, what drove you nuts about the job you're in today or a past role. And when I think about that for myself, of things that have irritated me, past roles or that made me angry, that helps me to surface what's really important to me in a role. And what are the things that are non negotiables. And so I would invite this listener to perhaps think about it through that lens of the role you have today, as healthy as it is. What are the things that really you don't like, but also previous roles, what are the things that really caused friction? What are the things that made you angry? What are the things that irritated you? Because I think those are also really strong indicators often of what are the things you value and what's really important to you, and what do you really not want to negotiate on if it got in your way?

[Muriel Wilkins]

It makes me think about. I remember I went to this silent meditation retreat. It's not all silent because the teachers talk a little bit. Okay, we're not allowed to talk, but the meditation teachers talk. And one of the things that this particular teacher was sharing was about the role of anger, right? And you would think, oh, my gosh, I'm going to meditation and they're going to talk about anger. And it was around, you know, noticing your anger. And that what anger does is it informs us that something is off, right? Something is not right with how we want to be aligned with whatever it Is. And so to your point around being able to. Not only. I think it's sort of a both and right, sure, you can list all the things that make you happy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And what are the things that really you off? You know, like, I think about people ask me, like, why do you do the work that you do? Well, yeah, I, you know, I help people kind of get to their goals, but in reality, the reason why I do it, like underlying that mission and my mission is to help leaders lead with more ease. Well, it's because it pisses me off that so many people suffer. Right? Like there's a anger and a. It shouldn't be this way in the workplace as a leader in the world. And so this is my way of trying to respond to that. So I think when you think about your non negotiables, it is partly, you know, kind of a balance sheet of what are the things that are additive that really bring you joy and support you, et cetera. And what are the things that, like, from your perspective, your point of view, it's not a right or wrong, just really, as you said, anger you or are a pet peeve that you no longer want to have exists. You know, I think what I would add also is, as you're looking at this list, and this is something that I do have my clients do, is list out all the things that you wish for, okay. And then literally circle and it cannot be the whole list. Your non negotiables, meaning what are the things? Absolutely 150% are non negotiable. I mean, there's no other way to say it. And I think it's important to understand, you know, to then kick the tire on those, right? Are they realistic? Which ones are under your control versus are you outsourcing to somebody else, the culture, et cetera. How will you know when it exists? Right? Because some people list things and I'm like, well, how will you even know? An example is, well, a non negotiable for me is I need to feel valued. Well, no, no, no. Like, let's get really specific on that because how you define feeling valued might be very different than what others feel. So how will you know when you go to that next organization and can you observe it? Is it measurable? Just like any goal. So being very specific, having it be realistic, and also distinguishing between which ones are in your control and which ones are not. And as you said, you know, going after those things, but holding it loosely because, you know, do we ever really know, you know, with Certainty. No, we don't. It's an illusion. Yeah.

[Dave Stachoviak]

So it's so funny this question comes up because I just saw this meme on LinkedIn yesterday and to your point, you just made of like having. Inviting people to write things down in advance. So important, right? Yeah, because there was this meme on LinkedIn that said how you feel from the day you accept a role to the day you start. It was a video of John Travolta going down the street looking all dapper from one of the movies he's been in. It's like you feel amazing from the day you accept the job to the day you actually start. Like, that's right. Nothing could stop you. And the to the point you just made. If you don't write it down. It is so easy to get caught up in the ooh, I have a great benefits package. I have all, like, all these things that came together with this new world that look really attractive and may be really attractive, and then you've sort of missed the ooh, these were the two non negotiables. I sort of knew that I was maybe setting aside, but when you've written it down, I think it's a lot harder in that honeymoon phase to ignore them and to not at least make a conscious decision that I'm setting that aside or to say, okay, I need to put the brakes on because I know I'm going to feel really good like when I'm being. Getting this opportunity. And so, yes to writing it down for sure.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. I mean, that, that is this. How do you feel between when you get it and when you start to feel amazing? I think, look, I mean, it's like, you know, it's the time between when you get engaged and you actually are at the altar. Right. Like, it's the idea. It's the falling in love with the idea of the thing rather than the thing itself. Right. And we are imaginative and we start thinking, oh my gosh, I'm going to get this job and all my problems will disappear. And that's when we start getting into fantasy land rather than. No, go back to your list. And remember, by the way, that these are the things that you said would anchor you, you know, and so make sure you understand what those are because you are going to have bad days. And as long as the non negotiables are there, that was the promise you made to yourself. Right. That was what was going to anchor you. I think it's also helpful to. You know, what I really like about this question is this individual Is realizing that there are trade offs, you know, and that is important. There are always trade offs.

[Dave Stachoviak]

There's always trade offs.

[Muriel Wilkins]

There's the choice. I think the other thing is comparing it or thinking about what they're leaving, you know, because if they list their non negotiables and they recognize that, oh well, actually where I am is a guarantee that it fulfills all my non negotiables. Do I want to leave because I don't have to? It doesn't sound like they have to. Or do I have something more to gain? Is there may be some non negotiable that I haven't explored yet that I haven't really come to terms with that is making me want to look at something else? Or is it more a reflection that maybe there's something that I need to address where I am and it's not about me looking for the bigger role. So I think that creating this list and looking at it from a perspective of not just the opportunity in front of me, but also what I'm leaving can help calibrate, you know, how do I end up making this choice?

[Dave Stachoviak]

Ooh, I love that. And I love the addition to the list includes the current role. You know, especially if you are like, okay, maybe I'm staying, maybe I'm not taking this opportunity because it's so easy to miss the amazing benefits we have right in front of us that we do not think about and we do not see because we've gotten used to it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

That's right.

[Dave Stachoviak]

And of course we're still going to miss some of them. But by taking the time to actually think about it and write it down and recognize like, ooh, where do I have it really good in this current role? And yeah, maybe I make a little more money going to the next place, but I miss out on the things that are gonna like, help me to get to my kids games in the afternoon or not work on a Saturday, Whatever it is, whatever it is. And it's different for all of us, but just being conscious of it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So yeah, I mean, you know, I had someone I coached once where they faced a similar thing, right? They were thinking about leaving and when we got down to it is they wanted to really get some more at bats at being able to manage larger teams and they thought they did their non negotiable. They're like, I need a bigger team. I want to be able to build that muscle of managing more people. Now they were a leader, but they had a very small team just given the nature of their work. But they loved everything else about their organization. This was the one thing. They had it in their mind that it wasn't possible. So they started looking elsewhere. And they went through this exact exercise that you and I are talking about. And what it led to is they went back to their organization and said, listen, they didn't tell them they were leaving, but they were like, this is important to me. Are there opportunities where I could scale build this muscle of scaling? She identified areas where she could take over, you know, more team responsibilities.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Oh, nice.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And it ended up that she was able to make that happen there. Now, I'm not saying that it's going to happen anywhere, everywhere, but she was able to make that happen there. If she had left, she would have never had that conversation. Right now I will fast forward. I think it's like six or seven years later she did end up leaving, but she ended up leaving on a much better platform than if she had left back there. Right. Because now she did have the people experience. So sometimes it's even if everything else feels good and it's just one or two of your non negotiables that are not being met at the place where you are. Examine, see if it's possible before assuming that there's no way it's not possible that this could happen here. But you have to be able to communicate it. Okay, all right, let's move on. Oh, my gosh, I'm feeling pressure. We have so much to talk about and not enough time ever. Okay.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Life, isn't it life?

[Muriel Wilkins]

We'll be back with more after the break. Today's episode is brought to you by Alma.

[Sponsor Voice]

A year from today, who do you want to be? What version of yourself would you like to meet? Maybe your relationship is stronger or the grief feels smaller.

[Muriel Wilkins]

What if that thing you've been secretly

[Sponsor Voice]

worried about just took up less space in your mind? The right therapist can help you get there. Alma will help you find them. I have coaching clients who also benefit from working with a therapist. But finding the right one can be challenging. They don't know where to look or haven't found quite the right fit. Alma has a directory of 20,000 therapists

[Muriel Wilkins]

with different specialties, life experiences and identities. And 99% of them take insurance.

[Sponsor Voice]

You deserve to feel like that future version of yourself.

[Muriel Wilkins]

A year from today isn't that far away. Get started [e-mail] coaching. That's helloalma.com coaching. I take my sleep very seriously, and that means having the right bedding. So with spring upon us, I thought it was time for an upgrade and it made such a difference that I went with Quince. Quince has beautiful options in European linen, organic cotton and mulberry silk that feel thoughtfully made and honestly make getting into my bed a favorite part of my day. Quince offers everything you need to upgrade your room. Luxurious sheets, lofty down comforters and duvet covers in seasonal spring colors and timeless patterns like striped linen and soft florals.

[Sponsor Voice]

The best part?

[Muriel Wilkins]

This bedding feels like you're at a luxury hotel, but it costs 50 to 60% less than similar brands. Quince sheets and duvet covers have become my favorite. They feel substantial but still soft and breathable and honestly feels so luxurious. Upgrade your bedding with quince. Go to quince.com muriel for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to Q U I N C D. Com Muriel for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Muriel so this brings us to our last question from the coach and real leaders community, Dave. It's related to constant change. This is one around shifting priorities. So here it is. This person said, I spend a lot of time and energy communicating with my team, making sure they understand the vision and making sure that they are all aligned. But then the C suite seems to constantly change their mind and decide that new projects, new initiatives are the priority. How do I keep leading effectively when the priorities from top leadership just seem so volatile? Ay ay yai.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Ay ay ay indeed.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So here we have somebody who is trying their best to keep their team aligned, doing all the things in terms of making sure that there's transparency around where the vision is, where the organization is going, what the priorities are, aligning them and making sure they're moving in the right direction. But then top leadership comes and says no, no no no, that's not what we're doing. We're now changing course. So it's kind of a response to change from above. Right. And so they are trying to figure out how do they lead effectively when priorities always seem to be changing from the top.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Yeah, yeah. It's a tough situation and this is of course the reality so much today. I mean so, so many things are changing so quickly with everything with remote work and AI and like everything. Right. So this is just the nature of work right now and it's the nature of leadership. And so you mentioned that I worked for Dale Carnegie in the intro and one of the Carnegie's best known book, how to Win Friends and Influence People. There's a great chapter in the book that says, appeal to the nobler motive. And what that means is being able to bring people back to the big picture of what's important. And let me share an example. I was very fortunate for many years working for Carnegie to get to do leadership and communication training for people here in Southern California in the aerospace industry who built fighter jets. And I would regularly go into their factory and literally, like, the trucks would pull up on one end of the building with all the parts, and out the other end of the building, a fighter jet would come out. It was miraculous, like watching the process and all the pieces that went into it. And as you'd expect, all the complexity was amazing, like the colors and flags and resources and charts. And you walked in there and it was an amazing, amazing process. And there was all the daily stuff that they were all dealing with. But then they had. If you looked up into the rafters, there was a giant banner that hung across the entire building. And the banner said, build it like you will fly it. And they had all the struggles that every organization has as far as challenges with the daily stuff and logistics and cost and scheduling and feedback and all those kinds of things. But many of their managers were really great about, hey, in the midst of all this stuff that we're dealing with every day and the change, they would sometimes literally point to the nobler motive. Build it like you will. Fly it. We're all in this together. We're all to the big picture. Now coming back to the question is, how do you handle it when things seem to be changing all the time? Start by finding the nobler motive. What's the big picture? If you work in an agency that is helping people to stay healthy, that nobler motive is somewhere around what we're doing for patients, how we're helping people stay healthy and show up well for their families and show up at work and be their best versions of themselves? Right. If you're working in a financial organization, it's how are we creating wealth for the people that we serve and we support? If it's a nonprofit, what's the work that we're doing in a community that is bringing joy and help and support to so many people who don't have those resources? Right. There is always a nobler motive. So this is not to say, okay, there's not the daily stuff that's going on, because there is, but it's framing for your team. Yeah, stuff's changing, but here's the thing that stays the same. Here's the thing that in the midst of all of this is still true for all of us. And then the other part of this is, yeah, things do change. And I think part of it is also as a leader being able to reflect back to the team, especially in an organization where there's a lot of change and saying, hey, we are going to have things that are going to change. There are going to be things that I say today that three weeks from now may change. And that's the reality of doing this. And we're going to adapt and we're going to support our team in the best way we know how and putting our trust and our support in senior leaders and also giving appropriate feedback when we need to. And it's all in the spirit of this bigger picture, this nobler motive. And I think the nobler motive piece is the piece that I often see missing from those conversations when we're handling all the logistical stuff and the messiness that happens on a day to day is framing it with the bigger picture.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, no, that's so important because it gives that anchor, gives the why, gives the purpose. And I also think what it allows you to do, Dave, as I'm thinking about your response is as long as that's what we are in service of, then we ought to be making changes if we don't think what we're doing is serving that effectively. You know, the exercise of this leader being able to articulate that. And going back to kind of your point when we first started off this conversation, being able to articulate that consistently right. Day in, day out, like I would even say at a tactical level to this leader, why don't you, you know, because you guys are going through so much volatility, maybe make it a practice that every day you send an email or have it as your signature email, or you start every meeting with saying, let me remind us of what our nobler motive is or what the bigger picture is. Right. To remind people. Because people forget and it's easy. I get it. You've got your to do list of 500 things, like you're not thinking about the bigger things. So I think there's that and then I think there is the. To me, there's a signal in this, in that this is an opportunity to actually build not only this leader's muscle, but also his team's muscle on being able to deal with change. You know, to your point around, things always change. Yeah, we think things aren't changing. Well, nothing stays the same. And if it does, good luck.

[Sponsor Voice]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

The issue here is the acceleration of the change and how much is happening at one time. And so when that happens, it's just, you know, I'm a runner. You know, if I'm on the treadmill and I'm running at, you know, 4 miles per hour. Yeah. Like the treadmill is moving, it's changing. Right. If the treadmill is changed, I can get along. But if the speed starts increasing and I don't even know somebody else is coming and pushing the button, and I'm all of a sudden having to like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I can't keep up with. Well, then what needs to happen? Either I need to learn how to run at that faster pace so I can keep pace, or I need to bring in resources. What do resources mean? Well, I might hang on, you know, to both sides of the treadmill to help me run. I might hang on the. The little thing that keeps me from. If I fall off the safety guard, I might jump off for a second and jump back in. I might lower the incline. Right. So that I can run at that pace, but at a flatter. So what I'm saying in that metaphor is make sure you're also resourcing for the pace of change. What do you have at your disposal that is within your control that can help support your team with these shifts? But if you focus, and I'm speaking here directly to this person who has this question, if your focus is on the, like, resisting the constant change that is happening, it is just going to make it worse. So I think that's what you can do with your team. I think there's also opportunity, depending on where this leader sits in terms of relationship and credibility with the top team, might this be an opening because they might not know how it's impacting the rest of the organization? Right. We often assume that they just don't care. And what we can sometimes be curious about is do they even know what the impact is? And so I think being able to open up that conversation and maybe going to one of the C suite members or multiple of them, again, depending on your relationship, and say, hey, like, I get it, I get that this is all happening. I just want you to be aware of the impact that it's having and making sure that you're making those decisions, eyes wide open around that impact. If so, great, we'll figure it out, we'll manage it. If you're wanting a different impact in terms of, you know, maybe it's causing people to leave, or if you're wondering why you're getting those negative employee engagements, scores, or why you're getting, you know, attrition at a time when we really don't need it, whatever it might be. Show them the impact in a language that resonates with them and then let them decide because it is their decision whether there's some reprioritization that needs to happen, whether they want to slow down a little bit of these changes and initiatives or anything else. So it's continue to manage your team, which it sounds like you're doing splendidly. But also, I don't know, there might be an opportunity for how do you manage up in this situation as well?

[Dave Stachoviak]

Yes. I'm so glad you said that. And I love the analogy of a treadmill because and you said the word resistance a few moments ago and I think that sometimes it's also like to continue your treadmill analogy, when do you also need to tell someone to stop pushing the button up? And this is exactly why the nobler motive becomes so key. Because if you really are centered on the nobler motive, both for your team and yourself, and you know, the big picture and what you're being asked of by senior leadership is getting in the way of that, I think that's the perfect time to go and have that conversation you just said and frame it around the nobler motive. Hey, we're in this, all of us, because we're trying to help out our community. And some of the things that you're asking our team to do right now are actually getting in the way of that nobler motive. And if you're aware of that, okay, but you may not be. And so I think that also is a really good checkpoint for you as a leader of like all these things I'm being asked to do, are they still serving the nobler motive? And this is just like a busy season and we got to figure out like how to hop on the treadmill a little different way and get some more resources, like, great, if that's the case, but if it's not, if it's counterproductive, then I think we owe it, all of us, to our senior leaders to point that out and say, hey, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but these well intended things you're doing are actually causing people to stress out, not show up for work, burn out, like those kinds of things. And again to your point, if they know that and that's their decision, okay, that's their decision. But sometimes they don't have any idea or they're not aware of that. And so I think framing it around that nobler motive is a really good way to open up that conversation.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Amazing. Amazing. Well, Dave, thank you, thank you so, so much for taking the time to be with me in conversation. I know we have conversations offline, but here we're making it public to everybody and it's been a real pleasure. And so please let everyone know where they can find you because I want to make sure that beyond this, they can hear all the wisdom and coaching advice and guidance that you give.

[Dave Stachoviak]

Well, thank you so much for the invitation to be here. Coaching4Leaders.com is the place to find all my work or just coaching for leaders on whatever podcast app you use. And could I make the additional invit for folks to go listen to the conversation we had, Muriel, because we had a conversation not that long ago about what it feels like when you don't belong. When you show up in a role and you're like, oh, I feel like an imposter. I feel like I don't belong. We had a brilliant conversation from your book Leadership Unblocked. And so episode 756 of coaching for Leaders I think is a great starting point if someone wants to dive in because you and I had so much fun in exploring some really helpful things when people are at inflection points. And thank you so much for doing that. I really appreciate it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Always appreciate you, Dave. Until the next time. Thank you so much.

[Dave Stachoviak]

So good to see you.

[Sponsor Voice]

That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time.

[Muriel Wilkins]

It's so crystal clear when you say there is alignment on the what, but now we need to tackle the how and how do we make that how, how effective. We need a friend conversation. If you want to unpack the episodes from Coaching Real Leaders, you can join me at coachingrealeaderscommunity.com where I host live discussions about coaching sessions you hear on this podcast. And I also answer questions just like I do here, but you can ask them directly of me and you can also follow me on LinkedIn @Muriel Mignon Wilkins on Instagram Oach Muriel Wilkins A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast so that you can subscribe to the show. And please, please, please leave a five star review. Thank you to my producer Mary Dew, sound editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, and my chief of staff, Emily Sofa. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.