Do I Really Want to Be CEO?

Summary

Coaching Real Leaders: "Do I Really Want to Be CEO?"

Host: Muriel Wilkins (Harvard Business Review)
Date: December 1, 2025
Guest (Pseudonym): Chloe

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Episode Overview

This episode explores a deeply personal and pivotal leadership challenge: deciding whether to embrace or step back from a CEO role. Muriel Wilkins coaches Chloe, a successful leader who unexpectedly became a business owner and is now grappling with questions about fit, capability, responsibility, and desire to lead at the highest level. Together, they delve into core motivations, fears, and practical strategies for shaping one's professional experience at the C-suite level.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chloe's Career Journey and Current Crossroads

• Background: Chloe has held leadership roles across sectors and geographies. Her most recent move, becoming company owner, was unplanned—motivated by a desire to save the business from closure and to protect employees and clients.
• Current Challenge: Now stabilized, Chloe questions whether the CEO path aligns with her aspirations and strengths. Is she doing this because she wants to, or simply because she can?

"I don't necessarily want to own a company, be the president, be the CEO... I worked in public sector and I was a fabulous cog in the wheel."
—Chloe (01:34)

2. Want vs. Can: Untangling Motivation and Imposter Feelings

• Desire vs. Ability: Muriel encourages Chloe to distinguish between wanting the role and believing she can fulfill it.
• Internal Obstacles: Chloe recognizes avoidance—posing lack of "want" as a cover for fears of inadequacy.

"The want to do it is probably my escape mechanism. I can tell myself, well, I don't really want that. And that way I don't have to figure out, can I do it..."
—Chloe (04:24)

• Responsibility and Ethical Weight: Chloe expresses anxiety over weighty obligations as CEO, feeling she carries others’ livelihoods.

3. Testing the "Want": If You Could, Would You?

• Reframing the Question: Muriel asks Chloe, if ability was guaranteed, would she want the C-suite role?
  • Chloe answers with clarity and even excitement.

"I firmly believe that a business can be run as a win-win scenario... If I really believe that I could step up and do this, well, in my mind I can see an organization that people want to work for and clients want to hire. That excites me."
—Chloe (06:14)

4. Breaking Down Perceived Obstacles

• Self-Induced Barriers: Chloe identifies procrastination and self-sabotage as recurring struggles, particularly around time management and self-discipline.
• Resourcefulness & Curiosity: Her ability to admit "I don't know" and learn or seek help is a key asset—but not yet fully directed inward.

"I have this skill set and I have this problem and I kept going at them like this and now we've just somehow managed to say, at least take your existing skill set and apply it to your existing problem and see what happens. What a novel concept."
—Chloe (28:23)

[Important Segment: Skill Application] — 13:04 to 14:37

• Chloe realizes she has not applied her signature curiosity and problem-solving to addressing her own growth areas as a leader.

5. Reimagining the CEO Role

• Personalizing Success: Muriel urges Chloe to consider what success would look like for a CEO in her position—independent of "perfection"—and to look for "non-scale victories" (small but meaningful wins on the path to growth).

"The victories don’t only need to come when you’ve hit the final success criteria... sometimes it might just be, I made it through the day with only looking at five dog videos instead of ten."
—Coach (27:16)

• Self-Coaching: Chloe is prompted to act as her own Chief Administrative Officer, designing the role and her day-to-day experience intentionally.

[Important Segment: Defining Success & Self-Leadership] — 23:33 to 25:20

6. Responsibility: Motivation or Burden?

• Dual Nature: Responsibility got Chloe into the role—it was her sense of duty when no one else stepped forward. Now, that same sense sometimes feels overwhelming.
• Reframing Responsibility: Muriel highlights it as a "two-sided coin," suggesting that Chloe can hold both the motivational and the burdensome aspects in tandem.

"My question is, what if it's not either-or? What if you did this role, holding onto this deeply held value that you have, accepting that leading in a responsible way is holding the whole coin—meaning it is both motivational and at times, heavy."
—Coach (33:34)

7. Learning to Figure It Out

• The Figuring Out Mindset: Rather than deeming herself fully equipped, Chloe resonates with the idea of being someone who “can figure it out,” matching her risk-aware but not risk-averse nature.
• Testing and Iteration: The episode closes with Chloe committing to experiment—“testing out” new ways of applying her strengths to her gaps before making a final decision about the CEO path.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chloe naming self-doubt:
  "I am so opposed to the concept of imposter syndrome... But I also realize there's this real feeling that each of us carries that maybe I'm not good enough." (04:24)

• Clarity on motivation:
  "If you assume that you could do it, all the capabilities of being able to do this role... would you want to do it?"
  "Yeah." (05:31–05:53)

• Curiosity as a tool for leading:
  "I've just never thought of turning it inward a little bit and being curious about some of my own professional practices and processes..." (22:15)

• Responsibility reframed:
  "On the one hand, you are at times experiencing responsibility as a motivation to move forward... and on the other hand... responsibility is weighing you down..." (33:02)

• "Non-scale victories":
  "One of the things that I love in my little fitness circle is when people say, they say, oh, I have an NSV to share. And it’s called a non scale victory... And sometimes it might just be, I made it through the day with only looking at five dog videos instead of ten." (27:16)

• Chloe’s closing insight:
  "I find it very interesting that I could have such a huge blind spot internally about what's going on. And yet just having a conversation with you and having you ask some pretty pointed questions has helped me realize... there's a feasible solution." (38:36)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:34 | Chloe articulates her hesitation about the CEO role | | 04:24 | Differentiating between “want” and “can”; Imposter thoughts | | 05:31-06:14 | If you could, would you want to be CEO? | | 13:04-14:37 | Strengths: Curiosity and resourcefulness | | 23:33-25:20 | CEO as Chief Administrative Officer to self; Structure | | 27:16 | “Non-scale victories” concept | | 33:02-34:12 | Reframing “responsibility” as both burden and motivator | | 38:36 | Chloe’s realization and closing insights |

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Summary—Key Takeaways for Listeners

• Distinguish between desire and perceived competence. Fears about not being “enough” in leadership often mask a deeper uncertainty about motivation.
• Apply your signature skills inward—not just to business problems, but to self-development. Strengths like curiosity and resourcefulness can unlock growth areas.
• Redefine responsibility. Valuing responsibility can propel us to act, but unchecked, it can also weigh us down. Holding both sides of the coin is more sustainable.
• Set personalized metrics for success. Celebrate small wins—“non-scale victories”—along the journey, not just end goals.
• Lead with a “figure it out” mindset. Leadership at the top doesn’t mean you have all the answers—it means you trust yourself to find them.
• Intentional role design. Take ownership of your own experience at the C level; use structure, support, and introspection to craft the job into a fit for both you and the business.

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Tone & Language:
The conversation is candid, thoughtful, and often playful. Muriel uses open, nonjudgmental questions to help Chloe delve below the surface. Chloe is self-deprecating and honest, using humor and relatable metaphors (like dog rescue videos) to express her struggles.

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This episode provides listeners with a front-row seat to real, vulnerable leadership coaching. Whether you’re contemplating a major career leap or wondering if the top job is really for you, Chloe and Muriel’s exchange is a masterclass in reflective decision-making, self-compassion, and practical leadership growth.

Transcript

[Coach]

Foreign.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Chloe to protect her confidentiality. She's worked across a number of different industries and geographies as she's pursued new professional opportunities and challenges.

[Chloe]

You know what, this is a great opportunity to go from HR director, which was kind of the level at which I was functioning into that C suite role, and grow it. I ended up getting to help a couple of companies scale up to go from say, the mom and pop up to, you know, larger corporate structure. So everything seemed to fall into place.

[Muriel Wilkins]

But Chloe's most recent move wasn't quite.

[Coach]

What she had planned.

[Muriel Wilkins]

She just became owner of the company that she had joined due to unforeseen circumstances that put the company at risk. She's since then been working to stabilize the organization, but she's not sure whether this level of leadership is really for her.

[Chloe]

I guess here's the thing for me that I struggle with is I don't have any aspirations to be leader of the free world. I don't necessarily want to own a company, be the president, be the CEO. I worked in public sector and I was a fabulous cog in the wheel. You know, I performed really well. I fit together, worked well with the team. I don't have any of that natural drive to want to be the boss. I'm finding as I do this role that I'm good at it in some respects. I guess part of it is, I don't know, do I want to really commit to this, to being C suite, to changing from being focused on operations, tactics, logistics and really take that next step into being a strategic leader? I think I could do it. And now I need to figure out where do we go from here? Do I want to continue with this, moving forward into being a true C suite executive and functioning at that level on a day to day basis, or am I genuinely more happy in the operational side of things letting someone else deal with the headaches of all this?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Over the course of her career, Chloe has found herself in the Middle of new, exciting, exciting challenges, and always jumped right in. But now she's at a crossroads, questioning whether she wants to remain in a C suite role and if it's the right fit personally and professionally.

[Chloe]

I think there's also an element of wondering if I can do it. I am smart. I know I can learn things. I've always done well in school. I've always been able to achieve things. But I am a little bit scared about what if I fail. I now have employees who are relying on this. It's like the stakes are higher if I fail. Their health insurance goes away, those sorts of things that I feel like there's an ethical obligation that goes along with owning a company. It's not just about, can we make a lot of money, can we go public, can we, you know, these things. But people's lives are wrapped up in their work, and it's a different experience to feel that level of responsibility. I can barely show up at work with my pants on some days. You know, I'm like, really? Do I want to care for people in a way that this requires? And I think that's a serious obligation.

[Coach]

Understood. So it's the level of responsibility that makes you feel like the stakes are higher for sure, as a C suite leader. Yes. So there's a distinction for you between do I want to do this? And can I do this?

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Coach]

And what's the difference between the two for you?

[Chloe]

So the want to do it is probably my escape mechanism. I can tell myself, well, I don't really want that. And that way I don't have to figure out, can I do it or can I not do it or do it. Well, the can I do it? I'm so opposed to the concept of imposter syndrome. I feel like it's a false modesty. But I also realize there's this real feeling that each of us carries that maybe I'm not good enough. And here's the other thing. This isn't brain surgery. This is basically managing a business with 4 million in revenue a year. We're not a big player on the overall scorecard. So I feel like I'm just kind of stuck in my head too much about making everything a bigger deal than it needs to be. Yes, there are complexities with running any business, especially in certain states. Everything's going to be different. These are all manageable. And yet I work myself up into thinking maybe I can't do this or this isn't right for me.

[Coach]

So let me ask you a quick question. Well, I don't know if it's quick.

[Muriel Wilkins]

But.

[Coach]

Let'S play a little game. All right. If you assume that you could do it, yet all the capabilities of being able to do this role. Right, and the role being operating at the C suite level in this company that you now own, would you want to do it? Yeah.

[Chloe]

That was pretty straightforward, wasn't it?

[Coach]

It was. I didn't know it was going to be quick. But you did make it quick and with confidence.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Coach]

Okay. You would want to do it. What would make you want to do it? What's behind you? Answering that affirmatively and with what I sense is like an energetic confidence and honesty there.

[Chloe]

I firmly believe that a business can be run as a win win scenario. I believe that I can, as a quality business owner, I can provide an excellent service for a reasonable price. And for those employees, I can provide a good job that doesn't take over their world or their lives where they can have work, life, balance. I mean, if I really believe that I could step up and do this, well, in my mind I can see an organization that people want to work for and clients want to hire. That excites me. It's like shopping at Nordstrom's, you know, where there's no risk because, you know, no matter what it is, even a bicycle tire, they'll take it back 20 years later. You know, they want you to be satisfied. The other part of this is I don't believe that people, everybody should follow their dreams. If everybody did follow their dreams, where would we be as a country? You know, who wants to be a mechanical engineer? Maybe two people. But if we focus on being in a role where we can contribute and have a good quality of life, to me that's a huge success. So, yeah, maybe it's just insecurity that's keeping me from committing to this.

[Coach]

Well, let's see. Right. But what I hear right now is there is a want, a desire that is grounded in, dare I say, like, you find purpose in what the company does and how you can lead. Right. And so that's a sense of motivation, you see, a why, which is part of a formula. That's the purpose part of it. So we've established that. The question was if you knew that you could, you would, because you, you would want to. So now let's play part two to this game, which is if you knew you wanted to, do you believe that you could, that you can do it?

[Chloe]

Yes. Not. Not as confidently.

[Coach]

Not as confidently.

[Chloe]

And what's going around in the back of my mind is Perhaps a tendency to procrastinate or I actually wrote down what I think some of my weaknesses are. I added some strengths and some meh, but one of them was overcoming self induced obstacles. And I feel like I can often be my own worst enemy. So if I want to do something, unless I get some sort of fire burning in me that, you know, nothing can stand in my way, I sense that I will come up with some obstacles to self sabotage or, you know, I, I know I need to develop my time management skills better rather than investing 30 minutes in really dialing in and learning Airtable. I watch some dog rescue videos at the end of the day, you know, and I just go, hey, I worry that my own natural entropy will somehow suck the life out of this. And that's where then I get back to with this level of responsibility. So years ago my husband and I owned a business and our whole lives were about being motivated, being focused, being present in the moment. And it was great. We didn't make money, but my God, we had the best friends. I don't feel that now like I used to. And so I worry that either it's because of age or life circumstances or whatever, that maybe that drive isn't there underneath and then I'll let people down as a result.

[Coach]

Okay, understood. And so what is the level of drive that you think is required or the level of capacity? Right. Because this is a can, not a want. What is the level of drive that you believe is required to be able to do this role?

[Chloe]

It's reasonable when you put it that way. I have, you know, a phenomenal employee who's helping me put systems in place, who's helping me make things more scalable. Yeah, no, it's, it's a reasonable amount of effort to take on the portions that I'm responsible for.

[Coach]

Let's break this down a little bit because I think what's happening a little bit here, and by the way, I have no dog in this fight in terms of whether you do the role, whether you don't like, I want you to live your life even though live your best life as the young people say. And what that looks like, I don't know. And it's totally up to you. Okay. I just want us to sort of break it down a little bit so that you can make a decision based on the reality of things rather than what we may be imagining what this is. Okay, so you have presented this as a concern of not being able to do the role as you see it now. And let's Just put that to the side for a minute. I'd like to understand in the role, what is it that you feel like you can do? So, meaning, what is it that you actually bring to the table that are capabilities that you think support this role and will help make it successful and be in service of the organization?

[Chloe]

Okay, so definitely being a jack of all trades is really beneficial here. I have some unique experience with international work for our industry. That's incredibly helpful, understanding how the different states function. I don't think there are a lot of people in my current role that have the kind of diverse background that I do. A lot of times I often tell my partner, we don't know what we don't know. And the first thing will be getting a whiff of, wow, this is something that I may not be familiar with. Let me dig into it. And so having that kind of curiosity, not to be arrogant and to be. Lest I make this about Ted Lasso, but, you know, be curious and curiosity is really valuable in this industry. And I think it tends to draw a lot of people who are incredibly confident, maybe a bit arrogant. So maintaining that curiosity and identifying the things where there's even a little perception of weakness is a good opportunity to jump in and learn or ask for help or. Not sure if I'm articulating that.

[Coach]

Well, what do you feel like you're not articulating?

[Chloe]

Well, you asked me to list what are some of the things that I do Well, I identify that I can identify when I don't know something.

[Coach]

I mean, so I find that really interesting because how could you leverage that skill that you have that you just articulated, which is one of the skills or what you feel like you bring the asset that you bring to the table? A capability is one of curiosity and the ability to assess when you don't know something and then either dig deep and learn about it and learn it, or ask for help, which is resourcefulness. I'm curious now, how could you leverage these strengths that you say you have, Jack of all trades, expertise, operational curiosity, and resourcefulness. How could you leverage those to close the gap or address when you might feel like there is a quote unquote deficit in terms of the capabilities that you bring to the role?

[Chloe]

That's interesting because I'm very conscious of that, like being on the lookout for something that I might need help with or need to dig into further. But I haven't thought of how to apply it to my own role specifically. I feel a little bit stuck.

[Coach]

Where are you stuck?

[Chloe]

I'm stuck in figuring out how to take the strength and apply it to where I am and how to do my job well.

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[Coach]

Hi everyone.

[Muriel Wilkins]

If there's one thing I've learned from.

[Coach]

Coaching real leaders, it's this.

[Muriel Wilkins]

We spend so much time worrying about what we can't change, but real growth starts when we focus on what we can. That idea that the biggest blocks are often within us is what inspired my new book, Leadership Unblocked. It's out now and it's all about helping you move past those internal roadblocks so you can lead with more ease. You can get leadership unblocked wherever you buy your books, and I can't wait.

[Coach]

For you to read it. So let's play it out. Right. You just said you're really good at when you don't know when something is done or somebody else doesn't know how something is done, sort of seeking out the help. So let's name something that you feel you don't have the capacity or you can't, quote, unquote, can't do in a C suite level role right now.

[Chloe]

Okay, so let's go with time management.

[Coach]

Okay.

[Chloe]

I do feel like overall my productivity isn't where it needs to be because of my natural tendencies, kind of going back to the operations side. Well, I'll just work harder. And at some point I want to make the shift of how about we start trying to figure out ways to work smarter?

[Coach]

Okay.

[Chloe]

Work more smartly. So I'll at least use an adverb like a grownup. But yeah, no, I think that's time management would be a huge thing for me.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay.

[Coach]

And so is the issue there that you don't know how to do, quote, unquote, time management?

[Chloe]

I think I understand several concepts. I haven't played around with them yet to find out which one works best with my work style. And so with different roles I've had in the past, I've basically just adapted whatever my boss used. And I haven't necessarily found one that Just works well, resonates with me and that I'm able to maintain continually.

[Coach]

Okay.

[Chloe]

As a result, I end up doing a lot of work in the evenings and on weekends.

[Coach]

Right. And so what would it look like if we just use this as an example? What would it look like for you to apply, again, the strength that you have, which is, let me be curious about how it can be done and let me find some help in getting it done. What would it look like for you to apply that in the area of time management that you've identified as an area of capability that you could strengthen?

[Chloe]

So I could set aside a block of time to look into systems or techniques or training tools for time management? Yeah, I actually, I delegated it to someone who does really well with time management, and that person has brought me something that's fabulous, but I haven't owned it yet. You know, I haven't personalized it. And as a result, I just spend a lot of time going, this isn't working for me.

[Coach]

Okay.

[Chloe]

So I, I was trying to be all executive and delegate. Maybe that's something I shouldn't delegate. You know that because it is so personal.

[Coach]

I mean, you can delegate up until a certain point.

[Chloe]

Right, right, right.

[Coach]

You can delegate nine tenths of the mile and still own the last one tenth.

[Chloe]

Okay, I like that.

[Coach]

I like that. Okay. And so it's not an all or nothing. Either I do it all myself or I ask somebody else to do it. I think it's, what do you need to be able to cross that line? And I think what we're getting at is more around the areas that you have identified as potential gaps in capability for yourself in this role. Are they ones that one you believe with the right resource that you would be able to close that gap? Enough doesn't have to be perfect. Right? Enough. And then secondly, which we haven't gotten to yet, is, do you want to.

[Chloe]

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, I can.

[Coach]

100% to what? Which part?

[Chloe]

Yes, to the first part. If, if I, if I tackle things like my struggles with time management with a little bit of curiosity and maybe watch one less dog rescue video per day, chances are I would be able to come up with a system that, that works well for me so that I'm not spending time in the evenings and on the weekends playing catch up the way I sometimes do now.

[Coach]

And if you were able to do that, would you want to work on that?

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Coach]

So it sounds to me like, and correct me if I'm wrong. Right, but it sounds like you want to do the C Suite role. I mean, you're in it, so you're doing it right. You want to continue it, but it kind of needs to look a little different in order for you to continue doing it. If it stays the same, then the desirability goes down.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Coach]

And in order for you to want to continue to do it, you need to feel more capable in some of these areas where you think you're lacking. And again, I say feel. And so the question is, in reality, you know, you have a choice. You can either work on the areas where you feel you're lacking and see if you can do them and then you have what you wanted. Right. Or say, you know what, which is, okay, I don't really want to work on those things. And then you have your answer because you're not. You're kind of not happy with the way it feels right now. So to me, it's more around how do you want to experience the CEO role and making a choice around it and then driving your actions based on that choice.

[Chloe]

It's pretty genius.

[Coach]

You tell me how you make sense of what I just said.

[Chloe]

I think you nailed it. With the way I'm experiencing it now is not something I necessarily want to continue in perpetuity. You know, where I am now just doesn't have a. A very positive feeling on a day to day basis. You know, it fluctuates. Like on any given Tuesday, I'll have wild confidence and just feel like we're nailing it. But daily I'm just not feeling like this is where I want to spend the rest of my career. However, one of those things that I do well, that curiosity, if I apply it strategically, it can change the entire perception of what I'm experiencing on a day to day basis. And so I'm willing to do that when it comes to researching a legal concept or a hiring practice. But I've just never thought of turning it inward a little bit and being curious about some of my own professional practices and processes that I've developed over the years. Some, you know, with phenomenal mentoring and some just by seat of my pants.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Let's pause before we get into more specifics of what Chloe is really trying to solve for. Sometimes in our career, we start with a very specific goal and make choices along the way to get us there. But other times, we just accept the opportunities that come our way. That puts us in a different position from one of thinking, I know what I want, how do I make the right chess moves to get there to Is this really the right opportunity for me? An important distinction to make is between do I want this role? And do I think I can do this role? Well, Chloe didn't hesitate when it came to answering the question around whether she wants the role. So now we can really zero in on what it would take to make her feel like she could actually do the role. And to do that, I turned to her strengths.

[Coach]

What would it look like if you were the chief administrative officer of Chloe?

[Muriel Wilkins]

What would you do?

[Coach]

What would you chiefly administrate differently? Wow. What would you chiefly administer differently in how Chloe does the C suite role?

[Chloe]

That's a great question. I would most definitely start with building some structure and some processes around. Well, a lot of it comes to defining. Sorry, I'm backtracking here. But that goal setting that I just naturally do for certain aspects of my life, I've got this blank here where I haven't done any of that. So establishing what are some of my expectations for whoever fills the role of CAO for this particular company, and then structuring my daily processes so that I can achieve each of those goals. I really love being incredibly good at my job, and I think that part of the element here is that I'm learning in real time. And so I don't come out at the end of every day and go, I killed it. I rocked it. I'm so amazing. That's okay. Because that's how we get better. You know, those windows of time where I was in a role that I had completely become proficient in, they might feel good, but it doesn't progress further. So I like the idea of looking at the CAO role and identifying what does it take for this role to be successful and what do I need to adapt in my daily administration of this role to make it look like how I want it to be.

[Coach]

Yeah, because you have ownership and control over that. I do. Wow. That's amazing.

[Chloe]

Right? Right?

[Coach]

Mm. Oh, my gosh. I think it's fascinating that you would do that for everything else.

[Chloe]

Oh, that's good stuff.

[Coach]

And it's sort of applying it for yourself.

[Chloe]

Right, right.

[Coach]

And I think there's a little bit of, like, you know, look, I get the. Hey, I don't walk out of here every day feeling like I rocked it, you know, and I, like, nailed it. I mean, welcome to my life. Okay. And in those moments, I would say, yes, establish what success looks like in this role, but then give yourself a progression path to get there. So the celebration.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right.

[Coach]

And the victories don't only need to come when you've hit the final success criteria. Right. One of the things that I love in my little fitness circle is when people say, they say, oh, I have an NSV to share. And it's called a non scale victory. Where the victory is not based on the final number that you were achieving on the scale. It's guess what, I was able to do 10 pushups today. And that it's part of the path. Okay. And it might feel small relative to the bigger goal, the uber goal, but it's still a victory. And so what I would suggest is as you define what success looks like for this role, regardless of who were to sit in it, to also not lose sight of defining what these non scale victories are along the way, the mini victories. Right. And sometimes it might just be, I made it through the day with only looking at five dog videos instead of ten.

[Chloe]

Yes, yes. No, I love that. I love that. Yes. Non scale victories.

[Coach]

I think that's the word. I don't know. If not, I just made it up.

[Chloe]

It's a good one though. It's a very good one.

[Coach]

Okay.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And so if you can use, which.

[Coach]

Is what you've just identified, if you can use what you actually bring to the table, the things that you can do to address the areas that you believe right now you can't do, I'm curious what happens and I don't know, I think that's tbd, right? It's untested.

[Chloe]

Very untested.

[Coach]

We can't really right now say with assertion that you cannot do those things.

[Chloe]

True.

[Coach]

So the question now is, do you want to test it out? Do you want to give it a chance to see if you want to prove to yourself or prove that you can do it so that you can make a better informed decision down the line or again, is it like I don't even really want to know if I want to test them out, which is okay too, right?

[Chloe]

No, 100%, I want to test this out. I feel like you've just identified there was an incongruity somewhere that, you know, like, I have this skill set and I have this problem and I kept going at them like this and now we've just somehow managed to say, at least take your existing skill set and apply it to your existing problem and see what happens. What a novel concept. So no, I'm very curious now to see what impact this has on my day to day experience of this role and in, you know, hopefully the continuation of that is then it has a positive impact on the company itself.

[Coach]

I Want to go back to something that you said earlier, which is this concern about when you were talking about, can I do it? You said, you know, what if I fail? You know, what if I fail? And there's something about that for me, which is like, it seems like you have clear in your mind what failure could look like, but you haven't quite articulated what success could look like.

[Chloe]

That's a great point.

[Coach]

It's hard to determine if you can be successful if you haven't really determined.

[Chloe]

What success looks like very much so.

[Coach]

So this point that you brought up, which is around I need to sort of sit and think about, regardless of who were to sit in this role, how would we define success? What would it look like? Right, okay.

[Chloe]

No, I like that. I like that.

[Coach]

There's a question that's been on my mind, and I didn't ask it earlier on because then some other interesting things came up. But I'm curious when you became an owner, because obviously you did not have to become an owner. Just because somebody makes you an offer doesn't mean you have to pick it up. And especially to buy a company, you don't. You're just like, sure, why not? Yes, why not? Right. What made you become an owner?

[Chloe]

So if my current partner and I had not bought the company, it would have closed, it would have gone under, and the people then who were employees and the clients we were serving would have been left in the lurch. I felt like we were the one and only hope for it to have a chance to make it. And we, you know, we both realized we may fail with this going into it, but we didn't see anybody else around us interested or willing to step in, pick it up, and run with it. I saw an interview with Bob Geldof where he was saying that one day, you know, God knocked on the door and this scruffy Irishman answered. And God was like, ah, you'll do. But it was that thing of not even necessarily being the right person for the job, but being the only person available at that moment to step in and do it. And I think my partner and I both have very strong senses of responsibility, whether it's a nurturing or just wanting to make sure everybody's okay. Yeah, we felt like we could do it, maybe, so we had to try.

[Coach]

Mm. You've used that word. First of all, thank you for sharing. I love the fact that I know who Bob Geldof is.

[Chloe]

Thank you.

[Coach]

That's awesome. Makes me happy.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Certain.

[Coach]

Certain age.

[Chloe]

Yes, yes.

[Coach]

And you've used the Word responsibility, quite a bit. And it sounds like it is a deeply held value of yours. Right? As you say, just answering the call when called, opening the door, even if the reaction to the people who knock is, eh, you'll do.

[Chloe]

Right.

[Coach]

But guess what? You're the one there. Okay. And yet that was your motivation to own this company, to pick up the mantle and take this responsibility. So it was a motivation. It moved you to action. It moved you to buy this company and step into the role. Right. That's what motivation is. It moves you to action. And yet, fast forward to today, the way you articulated responsibility now when you said you're concerned about failing and you're responsible for all these people and their livelihood, it is, in a way, keeping you from moving forward as well. So on the one hand, you are at times experiencing responsibility as a motivation to move forward and move to action and be resourceful and do all the things that you need to do to keep this company running. And on the other hand, I'm almost imagining that this responsibility is weighing you down to the point of not moving forward.

[Chloe]

Right.

[Coach]

It's a burden.

[Chloe]

Right.

[Coach]

Okay. So same coin, two different sides of how you experience it.

[Chloe]

Interesting.

[Coach]

Well, before I move on, tell me what's interesting about that for you.

[Chloe]

I like the idea that it can be this one concept or entity, responsibility, and yet it can have a different impact on me depending on how I'm looking at it or perceiving it or.

[Coach]

Yeah.

[Chloe]

I'd never thought of it as, like, two sides of the same coin.

[Coach]

Right. And so my question is, what if it's not either? Or what if you did this role, holding onto this deeply held value that you have, accepting that leading in a responsible way is holding the whole coin, Meaning it is both motivational and at times, heavy.

[Chloe]

I like that. And I like the idea that something that I keep in my back pocket, this curiosity, is something that can help me with both the burden and the motivation of responsibility.

[Coach]

Mm. Yeah, because I. You know, look, I'd be foolish to sit here and tell you, oh, my gosh, Chloe. It's never a burden. It's never heavy. It's never. No, like, let's be real, right? You know, it's like, you know, I'm not a religious person, but I know enough because of my mama, you know? But there's the verse, right? I think it's a verse. To whom much is given, much is required.

[Chloe]

Yes.

[Coach]

Well, that's awesome and inspirational and motivational and. Oh, boy. What do you mean, too much? What do you mean? Much like how much too much. Right. How much requirement. And the reality of it is, the more we resist that there is also a much and a required, the heavier it becomes. And so my question for you is, in practical terms, how do you carry this responsibility which is real? Again, I don't play fantasy, fairytale land. How do you carry this responsibility in a lighter way, as you lead, moving forward, what could you do?

[Chloe]

I think facing it, articulating it, writing it out, much like my ongoing list by my bedside. You know, when things keep me awake at night, I write them down so that I don't forget them, and it allows me to move on. Instead of letting responsibility be this nebulous monster that lives in my head, I can quantify it and make it into the many pieces, that I can tackle it in a more believable way with curiosity, with help from my colleagues, with all the different tools at my disposal.

[Coach]

Yeah.

[Chloe]

So again, instead of letting it be something that just gives me kind of an icky feeling on the inside, it would be really nice to treat it like any other business problem.

[Coach]

Yeah. I mean, what I sense, Chloe, is like, if I had to name, just from the brief moment that I've known you, but, like, I feel like one of your superpowers, and you tell me if this feels off to you. Right. Sometimes I'm like, oh, this is a superpower. People are like, no, that's not it. And that's fine.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right.

[Coach]

I want you to be able to say, yes, that is is resourcefulness, and here's why. Right. You've moved all over the place. You've had this, like, career that is so diverse. Like, you've made pivots that most people wouldn't even imagine that they could. Right. But some, somehow there was something that said, yep, I could start off as this, and, yeah, I can do that, which is completely different than what I was trained for. Oh, the company's up for sale and you're offering me to buy? Yep. We can do that. Right? We'll do it or we'll figure it out. It's not even we can do it, actually. It's the we'll figure it out. There's a difference. There's a difference between saying, I can do something and I can figure out how to do something, and if you leaned more on the I can figure it out versus I can do it, what difference do you think that would make for you in terms of being able to carry this responsibility?

[Chloe]

I love that distinction, and that is 100% how I see the world. Is can I figure out how to do something? And if so, then it's a. Then it's a risk worth taking. I always like to think that I'm not necessarily risk averse, but I'm risk aware. And I think just by being aware of things, I can then wrap my head around. Yeah, we can figure this out. Yeah, no, that's a great, great insight.

[Coach]

Yeah. And let me tell you something. There's, you know, if there's one of the big capabilities that a C suite leader needs to have, it's being risk aware.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right.

[Coach]

Like that is one of the main jobs. Right, right. So, okay, so tell me where you are now because I feel like we've covered a lot of different pieces and you have come to some answers, I think, on your own. So I'd love to know where you are now relative to where you were when we first started the conversation.

[Chloe]

I feel great. You nailed it.

[Coach]

Oh, no, you nailed it. You nailed it. What did you know?

[Chloe]

This is incredible. You've helped me get to a point where I can identify what the sort of. The vague sense of dis. Ease or discomfort that I've had around my role and what I'm doing professionally right now and look at resources and tools that I have at my disposal that if I just turn them and focus them, they can perform for me in the way they do for me in all of my business dealings. So I find it very interesting that I could have such a huge blind spot internally about what's going on. And yet just having a conversation with you and having you ask some pretty pointed questions has helped me realize, you know, that there's a. Not an easy solution, but a feasible solution.

[Coach]

Yes. Yeah. And I love that distinction because. Yeah, it's not always easy. And what we're looking for is, is it feasible? Right, right. And so I don't know what the answer is going to be right around. Do you want to continue doing this? I think you need to test some of this out a little bit.

[Chloe]

Agreed.

[Coach]

And that's your homework. Okay. Test it out. Be your own chief administrative officer to yourself and see what happens. Because I don't think you've done that yet.

[Chloe]

I have not.

[Coach]

Okay.

[Chloe]

Not even a little bit. This is super helpful.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Taking on any new level of leadership, but especially the head role of an organization means stretching ourselves in a number of new ways. So it's important to underscore a nuance that makes all the difference. You don't always have to know how to do something. What's more critical is knowing you will figure out how to do it, especially when we grow and move into unchartered territory. That's it for this episode and for season 10 of coaching real leaders. We'll be back in 2026 with more new episodes and some new surprises. Until then, there are plenty of ways for us to stay connected. If you haven't already, check out my new book, Leadership Unblocked, where I explain the seven most common blockers leaders face, many of which are issues that surface on this show. I'll also be holding a 10 week leadership unblocked group coaching intensive starting in January 2026. This is the first time I'm opening this to the public public and I'd love for you to join me. You can find out more and [e-mail] group to not miss when the next season starts. Make sure to subscribe, rate and review the show. It really does help. And if you're facing a leadership challenge you'd like to work through with me, consider applying to be on the [e-mail] and of course you can always find me on lead LinkedIn, Muriel Wilkins and on Instagram oachmurielwilkins. Or become a member of my community at coachingrealeaderscommunity.com where I host live episode debriefs and Q&As. Thanks to my producer Mary Dew, Sound Editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, my Chief of Staff Emily Soffa, and the entire team at hbr. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From the HBR Podcast Network, I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.