How Can I Move Forward When My Company Won’t Promote Me?

Summary

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Coaching Real Leaders – "How Can I Move Forward When My Company Won’t Promote Me?"

Host: Muriel Wilkins (Harvard Business Review)

Date: March 30, 2026

Guest: "Erica" (pseudonym), senior healthcare leader

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Muriel Wilkins coaches “Erica,” a seasoned healthcare leader who has spent almost her entire career at one organization, steadily moving up the ranks. Despite her experience, drive, and loyalty, she’s repeatedly been passed over for C-suite promotions—most recently not even allowed to interview for an open role. Facing the reality that her organization is strategically hiring outsiders for executive positions, Erica grapples with the dilemma: should she stay in her comfort zone and settle, or leave in pursuit of her professional dreams—despite the personal and emotional trade-offs? Through this real-life coaching session, Muriel helps Erica clarify her goals, interrogate her ambivalence, and reframe her approach to decision-making and discomfort.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Erica’s Career Journey and Hitting a Ceiling

• Background: Decades-long tenure in healthcare, mostly with one organization, with steady, “logical” progression up the ranks.
• Recent Barriers:
  • Last five years: Passed over for several promotions, sometimes less experienced candidates chosen.
  • Recent clarity: Feedback after a missed C-suite opportunity made it clear that “it’s not you, it’s an organizational decision”—the company wants to hire externally.
• Erica’s Reflection:
  • “I have that drive to move forward. I know I'm in a position in my current organization where that's not going to happen... So now it’s like, now what do I do?” (05:41)

2. Weighing Loyalty, Comfort, and Personal Needs

• Mixed Emotions:
  • Loyalty after years with the organization, but unsure why when the company hasn’t reciprocated.
  • Fear of change and leaving her comfort zone.
  • Personal and family concerns related to potential relocation or long commutes.
• Powerful Moment:
  • Erica: “I find myself caught in that trap of, if only it could happen here... But I still have that internal drive... It’s the aspiration to do that kind of work.” (09:02)
• Happiness vs Tradition: Erica recognizes she’d even considered stepping down to keep her comfort intact, but that wouldn’t fulfill her.

3. Ambivalence and Decision Paralysis

• Facing Tough Choices:
  • “I think the biggest thing is the thought about having to relocate... But I still find myself stuck in not making a decision.” (11:14)
• Excitement Returns:
  • Erica is re-energized by a new interview for a C-suite role—even before knowing if she’ll get it.
    • “That's the most excited I've been in years.” (11:41)
• Naming the State:
  • Muriel: “You’re kind of in a state of ambivalence…” (12:12)

4. Identifying Decisions and What’s Underneath

• Two Core Decisions:
  • 1. Whether to stay or go.
  • 2. If she leaves, how to manage the realities (distance, living arrangements).
  • “Almost sounds like I’ve made the decision to go. I'm struggling with where do I go and how do I manage that.” (14:06)
• Muriel’s Challenge:
  • “And who says it needs to feel comfortable?” (14:28)
  • Erica: “I tell myself that... Growth is not comfortable... I don’t think there’s a way to get there comfortably.” (14:36)

5. Discomfort, Guilt, and the Story We Tell Ourselves

• Seeking Comfort: Erica describes running endless scenarios for maximum comfort but still hesitates.
  • “I think I struggle with feeling guilty for making the choice to put myself first, even though I have support... For the first time, I’d be doing something... selfish in my eyes.” (24:39)
• Reframe of Selfishness:
  • Muriel: “What would you need to be thinking about yourself... to allow you to look at this decision... without the sense of guilt?” (26:07)
  • Erica: “Pragmatically, it's a means to an end... If I don't get this job... I remain where I am... extremely unhappy and not fulfilled currently.” (26:19)

6. Choosing Happiness as an Operating Principle

• Key Pivot:
  • Erica: “I want to be happy. I want to manage the implications, to be as happy as I can... I know one thing’s for sure: I’m not happy. And I don’t want to not be happy. Regardless of guilt, selfishness, whatever, I know for sure that’s what I want.” (28:43)
• Insightful Summing-Up:
  • Muriel: “My happiness supersedes my feelings of guilt. Amazing, right?” (29:06)
  • Erica: “That already feels lighter... I like the one step at a time.” (29:58)

7. Focusing on What’s in Your Control

• Letting Go of Certainty: Accepting that timing and outcomes are not within her control.
  • Muriel: “When the opportunity will arise, ultimately, whether you will get selected... all out of your control. So in spite of that, what is still in your control?” (31:29)
  • Erica: “How I show up every day... How I manage the feeling of happiness... How do I look for happiness at work in a situation where I’m not happy?” (31:46)
• Finding Interim Fulfillment: Seeking happiness outside of work if necessary, and creating clear timelines for how long she’ll give herself to land a new role.

8. Taming the Domino Effect & Adapting Decision-Making

• Over-planning and Its Pitfalls:
  • Muriel: “What is potentially not so helpful in your situation is kind of when I knock this domino down, then what’s going to happen to the next domino... in perpetuity.” (39:15)
• Adapting to a New Type of Uncertainty:
  • Erica: “That is how you were trained so that you could save human lives. But what you’re working with right now... is an exercise of finding your next role.” (40:03)
  • Muriel: “It’s a different type of training... Expanding from the default, as you said, is where growth happens.” (40:25)
• Choice as Ongoing, Not Permanent:
  • Erica: “It is just a choice, not a domino of choices. And it is one choice at a time... You make the choice that makes you happy, whatever that is.” (42:16)

9. Creating Comfort Within Discomfort

• External Comforts: Staying close to family, having creature comforts in temporary living.
• Internal Comfort: Realigning her self-story to “It is okay to pursue what makes me happy; I can care for myself and others.” (44:10)
• Guardrails & Accountability:
  • Define non-negotiables (e.g., not being on call 24/7).
  • To stay accountable, recognize “circular stuck” patterns and return to the happiness principle.
  • Adopt a daily mantra: “This is your operating principle right now.” (49:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Organizational Reality:
  “It is truly an organizational strategic decision to hire from the outside. And it’s kind of leaving me with not a lot of hope… So I’ve been wrestling with next steps.” — Erica (05:18)
• On Growth and Discomfort:
  “Growth is not comfortable... I know this logically, being uncomfortable is the very definition of growth.” — Erica (14:36)
• Naming the Guilt:
  “I struggle with feeling guilty for making the choice to put myself first, even though I have support... For the first time ever, I would be doing something that was pretty selfish in my eyes of being just for me.” — Erica (24:39)
• On Choice:
  “It is just a choice, not a domino of choices. And it is one choice at a time. And... you make the choice that makes you happy, whatever that is.” — Erica (42:16)
• On New Narrative:
  “My happiness supersedes my feelings of guilt. Amazing, right?” — Muriel Wilkins (29:06)
• Practical Advice:
  “Maybe you start each day... with a mantra and put it on a post-it note... But something that says, this is your operating principle right now.” — Muriel Wilkins (49:39)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:06] – Erica’s passion for broad leadership and impact
• [05:05-06:30] – The reality of being passed over and feedback received
• [09:02-09:40] – Wrestling with comfort and the hope “if only it could happen here”
• [11:14-11:41] – Feeling stuck and new excitement about a C-suite interview
• [14:28-15:00] – Growth and discomfort; challenging the need for comfort
• [24:39-26:19] – Guilt around self-prioritization; logical vs. emotional decision-making
• [28:43-29:58] – Choosing happiness over guilt, feeling lighter with this reframe
• [31:29-32:16] – Focus on what’s in control; cultivating happiness amid uncertainty
• [39:15-40:25] – Danger of over-sequencing choices and pivoting to a new decision-making style
• [42:16-43:01] – Choice is ongoing, not a chained sequence
• [49:39] – Establishing an accountability practice with a daily mantra

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Final Takeaways & Guidance

• Prioritize Your Guiding Principle: Identifying a central operating principle—“I choose happiness, even in discomfort”—unlocks agency and combats paralysis.
• Accept Uncertainty; Control What You Can: Let go of over-planning and focus on actionable steps and self-accountability.
• Embrace Discomfort as Growth: Recognize guilt and fear, but don’t let them be the narrators. Growth comes from acting outside your comfort zone.
• One Choice at a Time: Each decision is revisitable; choose for today, and you can pivot as conditions change.
• Practical Next Steps: Set parameters/guardrails, adopt daily reminders, and practice self-compassion as you grow through discomfort.

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This episode delivers a powerful real-time exploration of career change, identity, and rising above fear and guilt, offering a roadmap for listeners facing similar crossroads.

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

I'm executive coach Muriel Wilkins and this is coaching real leaders. I've spent over 20 years working with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump so they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today I'm coaching someone we'll call Erica to protect her confidentiality. She's worked in healthcare for decades and almost her entire career at one organization, steadily moving up the ranks. For several years, she's been chasing a dream.

[B]

It's driven a lot of my purposeful moves in leadership, but I haven't quite gotten there yet. And it's where I've gotten stuck trying to get that last little push to get to that C suite role that I haven't been able to achieve.

[A]

Erica is very interested in her work and her desire to make it to the pinnacle of her organization and career.

[B]

That's really where my passion is. I love it. I love the scope that it gives me. You know, it's not just me taking care of one person, it's me taking care of the people that take care of the people. And then it's more people and more people and my scope keeps getting broader. That's what kind of fuels my passion for, I guess, wanting more, wanting that C suite type role.

[A]

To begin the coaching session, I wanted to get a better sense of what helped her move up in her career in previous years before we dug deeper into her current state. So I asked, what has been the key to her leadership success so far?

[B]

Well, I don't know. I mean, historically, the promotions, they've always been easy. They've been very progressive. It's almost been like a logical next step, quite frankly. I was tapped on the shoulder for some of those promotions. And, you know, I get that the higher up you go, the harder it is. The positions are more coveted. But in the last five years, as I've tried to move up a level, I've been passed over for several promotions. And always in hindsight, it makes perfect sense. You know, hindsight, you're like, oh, yeah, I see why they made that move. I get why I wasn't chosen for the most part. A couple of them, though, not so much. There were people in particular that received promotions that were less tenured. It didn't make sense to me logically, and, you know, that didn't sit well. Most recently, there was a position that came open, and not only did I not get that promotion, I wasn't even allowed to interview for it. However, I did receive the best feedback ever on that position and became crystal clear. And that's kind of what's led me to my most current dilemma. The clarity that I received that day with the feedback was, it's not me. It's not my skill set. It's not that I can't do the job. It is truly an organizational strategic decision to hire from the outside. And it's kind of leaving me with not a lot of hope for getting to a C suite in the current organization. So I've been wrestling with next steps, like next steps in my career. What do I do with that? I am at a point where I can take an early retirement, which is free money. I could get an early pension. That is a blessing. You know, a lot of companies don't offer that. And if I took my early pension, then I could go pursue options somewhere else. So I have been recently applying for C suite roles. It's tough. It's kind of one of those circular things. If you're not in the role, it's hard to get into the role externally. But I have recently been accepted by a recruiter, and I actually have an upcoming C suite role in a different state. It's a few hours away. And, you know, I find myself struggling with. Maybe it's the fear of leaving an organization, not ever having done the job, but knowing deep down I can do the job. But do I want to move? Actually, I probably wouldn't move. I would Temporarily relocate, come back and forth, because, you know, I'm at a stage in my life where I don't really want to start over again. And it's quite a dilemma for me. It's like I have that drive to move forward. I know I'm in a position in my current organization where that's not going to happen. Right, wrong or indifferent, you know, it's just not. If I truly want to get there, it's not going to happen where I'm at. So it's like I've come to the conclusion that that's the case, but. But now it's like, now what do I do? And I think the biggest thing is the thought about having to relocate. Temporary is better than permanent. You know, it's still a sacrifice. And I don't live in an area where there's a lot of opportunities locally. So the closest opportunity realistically is probably going to always be at least two and a half, three hours away.

[A]

Okay. So first of all, thank you for sharing and let me make sure that I can absorb where you are and what you're experiencing. So what I'm hearing is you've been at this organization for a large part of your career, have successfully advanced up the career ranks, right up the ladder, if you will. Certainly effort in the role, but not as much of having to out of your way to position yourself. Da, da, da. You didn't have to make it happen. It happens quite naturally until the past couple of years where there seems to be. You were hitting some blocks in terms of getting to the ultimate position that you want, which is at the C suite level. And what you recently heard is, hey, Erica, it's not you, this is us. Right. It's the context. Right. Which is we are strategically focused on hiring from the outside and you're not from the outside.

[B]

Yes, got it.

[A]

And so now you're faced with I want that C suite level. It's clear to me it's likely not going to happen here. Or. Well, we can talk about it a little bit, maybe. It's like I'm not willing to take the chance of waiting to see if it happens here, given what I've heard. And so I'm looking on the outside and there's some interest. But then I feel this struggle of do I really want to leave? What's the struggle?

[B]

That's a good question. I keep going back and forth, what is that struggle?

[A]

And what do you go back and forth with?

[B]

I think some of it is loyalty. Although this may sound silly, but I have Been a loyal employee. I don't know why I'm so concerned with loyalty when I don't feel like I've gotten reciprocation of that. So there is some degree of loyalty, quite frankly, there's some degree of fear. I mean, it's fear of change because I have been at the same place for so long. And, you know, lastly, it's probably more personal in terms of my family obligations. I'm free to. To explore and do, you know, I guess it's kind of. It's comfort. I'm very comfortable.

[A]

You're very comfortable. You know, it reminds me of not saying, this is what you're doing. But one of my favorite lines. I don't know if you've ever watched the show. Oh, gosh, White Lotus, that's the show. And there's a woman there who lives a very more than comfortable, extravagant life, and they want her to go spend the night somewhere that is much less extravagant. And she looks at her family and she says, I'm too old to be uncomfortable.

[B]

I can. I can relate to that. I mean, there is some truth in that because, you know, I find myself caught in that trap of, if only it could happen here, it would be perfect. I don't have to give up my creature comforts, my. My home that I've gotten to be situated exactly like I like it, you know, my routines exactly like I like them. But I still have that internal drive desire to get to that level of leadership for this role. And it's not from a place of, oh, I need this title. It is the aspiration to do that kind of work. Like, it's a broad impact. I enjoy the work that comes with being the accountable leader for setting the direction and getting the direction implemented and executed through lots of teams and people. And it's what I like to do, and it's what I do well. In all the jobs I've ever had, this most recent position that I'm in, not only have I not had the opportunity to move up my. My job has changed, and I can't get a lot of traction for direction and momentum. And there have been some teams that reported to me that have been moved for strategic alignment. I understand that. But it has also created an issue where in my current role, I'm not happy doing the work that I do. So I've got that situation too. Like, regardless of potentially early retiring or not, I've even had the thought from that comfortability standpoint, the thought of staying in the organization but taking a different job, a Lesser job. It wouldn't be a higher job. It would be a step back, but it would keep the comfort intact. But then the desire for the role is still there. And I think that's really my friction point. And I find myself just stuck in not making a decision.

[A]

Not making a decision. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I will say most recently being offered the opportunity to interview for a C suite job. The interview hasn't happened yet. It will happen and I don't know how that will turn out, but I can tell you that that's the most excited I've been in years. Just the thought of the possibility. But I can't get too far down the tracks and put my eggs in that basket because I don't know what's gonna happen.

[A]

But it's reminding you of what's possible. Right. Of the. Of the desire part, you know, and the state that you're in. I kind of wanna put another name to it so we can recognize it. You're kind of in a state of ambivalence, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not quite sure exactly what you wanna do. I'm sort of stuck because I can't. I can't make a decision which is ambivalence. What's not yet quite clear to me, probably because I haven't fully absorbed it. I'm sure you've said it, I just haven't taken it in. Is what is it exactly that you're trying to decide?

[B]

Well, it's probably two decisions. Whether or not to stay or go from the current organization. That's really the primary decision. Because if I stay, I don't like the current role I'm in. I'm going to have to get a different job within. And I know there's no job within that gets me to that ultimate desire. If I go for the first time in a while, I do see that it's possible that I could get to that C suite role externally for a while. I didn't even think it was possible without already being in that position. So I think the second decision is if I go, will the temporary leave from my weekly life at home, Am I going to be okay with that or will I tire of that quickly and not be happy?

[A]

Okay, so the first decision is do I stay or go from the organization that I'm in? The second doesn't sound like a decision to me. It sounds like a if, then what? Right, I got you. I'm trying to figure out what exactly would happen if I end up taking enroll somewhere else. Okay, what's the decision there?

[B]

Well, it Almost sounds like I've made a decision.

[A]

What's the decision you've made?

[B]

I really think I've made a decision to go. I'm struggling with where do I go and how do I manage that.

[A]

Okay, and so what does it feel like to say I've made a decision to go?

[B]

I mean, honestly, that. That is relieving. It keeps me unstuck. But then it's not comfortable because it's the going part.

[A]

Yeah. And who says it needs to feel comfortable?

[B]

That's a good point.

[A]

I'm not making a point. I'm asking a question.

[B]

Yeah, I think I tell myself that when I say it's a good point. Because the reality is growth is not comfortable. It's. And I know this logically, being uncomfortable is the very definition of growth. And growth is the desire that I've had. And I don't think there's a way to get there comfortably.

[A]

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[B]

Okay.

[A]

And what I mean by that is like it's, you know, sometimes as a coach, like you get reminded of stuff like I'm training for a athletic event right now and you know what goes through my head every time I train Erica? I'm like, why is it so uncomfortable? Why is it so uncomfortable? Because supposedly I have this belief that, like, I'm the only one in the world that should be training for this event and not feel uncomfortable in my magical thinking. Right, Right. So then what do I do with that? You know, And I think there is this posture around you've made the decision and kudos to you. I think you knew what the decision is. But you know you want to go and then you're like, but I don't like that it's uncomfortable. How can I make it more comfortable? Yeah, right. You get that, like growth is uncomfortable. So here you have a decision in terms of you can resist the discomfort of it all. Right. Which keeps you from. I don't know, we'll see. Like, what does that mean to resist the discomfort of it all? What's the impact of that? Or you can embrace, you know, accept. Doesn't mean you have to like it, but embrace and accept that part of the process of moving towards what you desire, which is this higher level, bigger scope role, is going to require some level of discomfort for. I don't have a crystal ball. Right. For X period of time. So I think you have every right to make that decision, you know, because that is up to you.

[B]

Yeah. And I've wrestled in my mind with this over and over all the time. Right. So I've played lots of different scenarios trying to figure out what's comfortable. So if I stay here, there's a position, actually I've applied for that I could stay here and be comfortable and I won't get to my desired state here. It would buy me some time. I would gain some more skills, look fun on a resume, and when I'm ready, I can leave and go pursue that C suite role. And when I pursue the C suite role, right now I'm looking for a certain radius. So it gives me time to look for the right job. So it's like internally I have all of these parameters of the perfect scenario, if you will. It needs to be close by. Ideally, it would be a certain type of place. I think this most recent potential opportunity is a really good one. It's close by. It is a smaller place. It wouldn't be the permanent place I would go, but I think for a couple years it could help get something on my resume. I feel like I could live through whatever discomfort comes from being away to achieve the goal. Like, I've wrestled with all of that in my mind and I feel good about that overall, but I still feel hesitant and I'm like, what? I don't understand that. Like, what is that about?

[A]

What is that about? What is it that you're hesitating there? Because the conditions, the conditions are as

[B]

good as they're going to get. I think the conditions are actually being away from my husband during the week. I mean, it's not like we live this crazy life. We go home, we eat dinner, we watch TV and then go to bed. It's like for Monday through Friday, it's the same routine and I would be by myself. And it's not that I can't be by myself, but I do think that's the pull.

[A]

So it's not that you can't be by yourself then it's what if it's not that, then what is it about being by yourself?

[B]

Maybe I don't want to be. It's like, what do I want more? And that's tough.

[A]

It is tough. It is tough because it's a choice and it's a trade off. But, you know, may I offer that how we experience trade offs? Okay. Because this is your relationship to that trade off is as tough as you need it to be. Okay. Because at the same time that it's tough, it's also. I'm going to go back to what you shared earlier. Right. It's also this like amazing opportunity to make a choice. Right. And yeah, all the promotions that you've had and all the positions that you have, it was just sort of the natural next thing, you know, kind of like, okay, next thing, next thing. Which isn't, yes, you had a choice, you could have said no, but it didn't feel like a choice. Cause it was just like. It just feels like the next best thing to do.

[B]

Yeah, that's fair.

[A]

That's fair. Okay. So the tough part or what can feel quote unquote tough also because you really haven't had to do it, is make a choice where there are trade offs. Now what I would ask you is if we flip this a little bit, in what way could you face making a choice, making a trade off that would still make you feel quote unquote comfortable? Like, let's assume the choice is made. Right. But what would make making the choice, not the choice itself, what would make making the choice, the process of making the choice, making the decision comfortable for you?

[B]

I don't know. I think I struggle with feeling guilty for making the choice to put myself first, even though I have support my husband's like, do what you need to do. I think there's this internal guilt that probably for the first time, not only in my career, making a choice for the first time ever, I would be doing something that was pretty selfish in my eyes of being just for me. Yeah, but how to make that comfortable, I don't know.

[A]

Well, I think we need to understand, you know, that is the narration of the choice that you're making right now. Right? Like the narration is, I think. So go and take this job that Takes me away from the Monday to Friday, coming home, eating dinner and watching tv. I am being selfish. Your husband is saying, no, that's not the case. You know, I don't know who else is saying the case, but that's what you're saying about. And what it's leading to is then experiencing this moment with all the discomfort, the icky feelings that you're having, okay. And almost led to you, like not making decisions. So here's the thing. You know, what you want to lead this decision with in terms of your operating principle and what drives you is up to you. So that is one way of looking at the situation. What would you need to be thinking about yourself in this moment to allow you to look at this decision or make that decision, this trade off, without the sense of guilt that you feel?

[B]

Pragmatically, it's a means to an end. It is a necessary thing, you know, logically, to leave, even if temporarily, to be able to get to my desired goal. I mean, I know that intelligently, logically, and I think if I run it through that scenario, it's a no brainer, especially when I layer in all of the if, then, then that scenario is, for example, what if somebody needed me? How fast could I get to my children or my grandchildren or my husband? That's why I think I want to keep that radius small. And I have all that. So logically, it's easy. Whether I get this job that I'm going to interview for or whether I just keep looking. If I don't get this job, then here's what happens. I remain where I am until that time comes, and I don't know when that will be. And I'm extremely unhappy and not fulfilled currently. And I don't know how much longer I can stay in my current situation.

[A]

So I feel, yeah, I mean, what I'm hearing, Erica, if I may, like I'm hearing the struggle and the decision between, you know, do I act, quote, unquote, selfish because I'm going towards something that I want and it may require certain implications, or do I see this as an opportunity to make me happy? Right. Which leads to the same thing.

[B]

Yeah, it's both.

[A]

It's both. It's both. In what way?

[B]

It leads to an opportunity for me and it would make me happy. The opportunity part.

[A]

Great. Right. I thought you were saying it's both, like, it's both selfish and it makes me happy.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

Okay. Okay. You have to sort of choose, is what I'm saying, what you really need to choose is, are you gonna lead from a place of. This is very selfish, you know, and because it's a selfish move, therefore, xyz. Or are you gonna lead from the place of. I want to do what makes me happy, and I understand that there might be implications, but I'm going to try to manage those implications as carefully as possible.

[B]

I want to do the latter. I want to be happy. I want to manage the implications, to be as happy as I can. When I try to look at all the cards on the table, I know one thing's for sure. I'm not happy. And I don't want to not be happy. Regardless of guilt, selfishness, whatever, I know for sure that that's what I want.

[A]

Okay, so here you are, right? You're stating the trade off you're willing to make. The trade off is my happiness. How revolutionary, Right? My happiness supersedes my feelings of guilt. Amazing, right? So if that is the case, then what does that now allow you to do? As you continue to move forward in this process? We're just little steps to figure out what little decisions you need to make to ultimately lead to the final decision, which will be when you get that offer, are you going to take this job or not?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The decision you made earlier in the conversation was, I want to go, but I'm not quite sure what. Da, da, da. Now you've made. The decision of being happy supersedes any guilt that I feel around the Doing something for myself. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

I mean, honestly, that. That already feels lighter just framing it that way because it helps me get out of this circular. I like the one step at a time. And I do know that I want to be happy and not frame whatever decision I make from guilt. So I like that.

[A]

Okay, so what decisions would remain for you after that?

[B]

It's all evaluative based on whatever happens. Right, Right. And that's the unknown part. Except for. Well, it is the unknown part. So I don't know what's going to happen outside. I kind of feel like I have to just keep putting myself out there externally. And if it becomes too long, I don't know what too long looks like yet. Pretty close. You know, I have to have a paycheck, so I just can't not work. So what do I do? Where do I go in the meantime? I don't have a plan for that. I just know that I'm not happy. So, I mean, I can keep doing what I'm doing, which I show up to work every day and do the best Job that I can do, it doesn't fulfill me and make me happy in terms of work. I know that, but also know I'm looking for what will. I don't think it'll take forever, but it's definitely a longer Runway sometimes. I mean, those jobs are harder.

[A]

That's out of your control, right?

[B]

That's right.

[A]

It's out of your control. Now in the scope of all that, what that is out of your control. When the opportunity will arise, ultimately, whether you will get selected for the job, all out of your control. So in spite of that, what is still in your control?

[B]

I mean, the same things as always. How I show up every day, I guess how I manage the feeling of happiness. How do I look for happiness at work in a situation where I'm not happy?

[A]

I mean, you know, that's a whole nother conversation. I mean, that's a huge question, right? Huge. Not huge, but there is an opportunity here to learn how. How do I cultivate my happiness even when everything around me isn't what gives me happiness?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've had the thought of if happiness is not going to happen at work, like this is not the ultimate job I want. The work doesn't fulfill me. Meanwhile I get happiness somewhere else. I mean, you kind of put in your time, you do good work, but find happiness outside of work, which is what I've been doing.

[A]

Right. I think the question or what you're highlighting, I'll offer it to you and you tell me whether it resonates with you or not, is you know, that you have to be there for a certain period of time. And I think it would be helpful to kind of articulate what that time is. Right. Because that is something you have control over. You can say, I'm going to give it six months, I'm going to give it a year, I'm going to give it three years, I'm going to give it four years. And that can change. You don't have to stay, you know. Right. It's up to you. If I am self committing to this amount of time, how do I make that time sustainable for me?

[B]

Yeah, I think some of those time frames like I've been doing, I've been at this for a while. This year is when I'm actually eligible to retire. So I've had that in my mind all along. And internally I've looked for things that could carry me to that date. And then I've even thought, what are the things that could carry me past that date? What I'm having a hard time doing is finding something that can carry me past that date. So I find myself now actively looking so that my goal would be to hit that date. So, you know, it's not that far away. And when I think about that, that makes me happy. I mean, to know that there's a timeline of, okay, by this date, I could do it. But here's the thing. I can't just do it until I have another job.

[A]

So that's the condition, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what happens, you know, in every other areas of our life when we set a date and there's a condition for that date, you know, I mean, I remember buying a house and it's like, oh, yeah, we're closing on this date. Yep. You know, but guess what? There were a few other things that needed to line up as much as I desired that date. And that was the plan. And then we'd get and be like, oh, yeah, like, you know, the inspection didn't happen, or this didn't happen. This didn't line up. So then what do you do?

[B]

Yeah, you pivot and you do a different date. And I've. I've thought of that. I, like, have. I have this date in my mind of if I don't get a job by then, I just keep doing what I'm doing while I continue to look for the conditions, which I don't know, you know, I don't know how long that might take.

[A]

You don't know. That's out of your control. That's not that. That is out of your control.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's part of the thing you want. I know everybody probably wants that, or maybe not. Maybe I'm the unique individual that wants the crystal ball, but I'm sure you hear that a lot. If only I knew what was coming down the pike, I could make the best choice ever.

[A]

I hate to be the bearer of not so great news, but I think it is great news. I mean, you don't know. But what you do know, you know a lot just from today, you know you want to leave. You know that you want to pursue something that's going to make you happy versus not pursue something because you feel guilty or like it would be selfish. So there's already a lot that you do know, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I would suggest or offer what if you operated from a place of what you do know rather than what you don't know?

[B]

Hmm. I like that.

[A]

We'll be right back after this.

[B]

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[A]

Any decision we make around our careers can be emotional and it can impact all aspects of our life. For Erika, the possibility of change was bringing up the feeling of guilt, which was really important for her to better understand so that she could figure out how to deal with her discomfort. It also helped her put something else in perspective, another way to think about making decisions that involve trade offs by having a guiding principle. In Erica's case, she determined it was important above all else to prioritize her happiness and to work. Worry less about the longer time horizon or the things she can't control. In many ways, the most important decision Erica might be making here is less about to leave or stay and more about deciding how she approaches situations that require trade offs. Once you can pinpoint exactly what is causing discomfort in any change you're looking to make, it's much easier to start thinking about how to approach that change.

[B]

I think what I think what I know now is a lot to move forward. I mean, even in today's conversation, the fact that prioritizing my happiness is important. I know I want to leave. I know the constructs around the perimeter. You know, I have some upcoming opportunity, I have applications in for other areas. I do know that I want to continue to explore and I have some time to do that. I don't know if there's a lot more that I need to know.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like the only thing that you really don't know, but it's out of your control, is when is it going to actually happen? When is this thing that I, you know, it's. And especially because you have the conditions right. And so there is this, like, I know what I want the job to look like. Like I know the conditions around it. And even that perhaps it's. You give yourself a time frame, I'm going to give myself a year or whatever it might be, again, your choice to look for the role that has these conditions. And if it doesn't happen by that time, it's not that you have to know what move you're gonna make now. What you can say is, at that point, I will revisit you know, and I will revisit from the place that I am now. Like, how do I feel? Do I feel like I need to really accelerate it and therefore make some trade offs around some of these conditions? Do I need to say no, I'm actually okay waiting and so I'll wait.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think what is potentially not so helpful in your situation is kind of when I knock this domino down, then what's going to happen to the next domino? And what's going to happen to the next domino? And if. Then what? If, then what? If, then what? In perpetuity.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which then leads us right back to like, oh, shoot, like, should I leave or should I just say. Because that just feels overwhelming and super uncomfortable.

[B]

Absolutely. Yes.

[A]

So a few dominoes at a time.

[B]

Yeah. That's hard for me personally. And some of that is just how I was trained. You know, we have to have a plan A, B, C, D. And looking too far ahead, I can see where that creates that cycle of in perpetuity. And you never get out of it.

[A]

Yeah. That is how you were trained. It is how you were trained so that you could save human lives. But what you're working with right now is not an exercise of saving a human life. It's an exercise of finding your next role.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's a different type of training that you have to conjure up to work with this.

[B]

It's not my default.

[A]

It's not your default. And yet. And yet expanding from the default, as you said, it is where growth happens. And so it's a little uncomfortable because we're using other muscles and that's okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. It's okay to feel uncomfortable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As you're doing that. So based on the reframing that you've done and the kind of recalibration of. I can take kind of a few steps at a time and then revisit. You've talked about different milestones. And I keep thinking about you kind of going down, you know, driving down a highway and you're like, I get to certain mile markers and then I pause and I say, okay, like which way do I want to go? Do I want to take the highway bypass or do I want to just keep going, you know, on this highway, do I want to take the scenic route? I get to decide at those places. And that is choice. Right. No, choice is there is only one way. You're not even pausing, you're just going. Which I feel is what your career has been. Now you've got different routes, right? Yeah.

[B]

I Think that's spot on. And I've really, until this conversation, I really had not framed it that way. And that's exactly right. I've often pondered, why is this so difficult for you? But when I look back at my career and where I've been makes perfect sense. I haven't had to do a lot of that. And then when you look at how I'm trained, the way within which I typically make decisions is not fruitful in this case. And I do feel like the framing has helped and I get the discomfort. That makes sense that it would be there. And I think I also finally, truly understand choice.

[A]

What is it that you understand about

[B]

is just a choice, not a domino of choices. And it is one choice at a time. And I like the reframe of. You make the choice that makes you happy, whatever that is.

[A]

That's the operating principle that you've chosen for this part of the journey until maybe that doesn't work for you anymore. And again, that's your choice. Okay, so I'm curious what would make you. Because we've established that there is some discomfort and that's okay. What would make you comfortable with the discomfort that you're experiencing that is in your control?

[B]

You had to add that part, didn't you?

[A]

That part.

[B]

Because I was going to do the magic wand and say if I could take my house and put it in the new place. Of course. Well, I think just making whatever temporary living arrangement I would have, being conducive to creature comforts that I'm used to at home, that would feel good. Keep me in close proximity to wherever it is that I would choose to work. I think knowing that I can get back quickly via car should I need to, makes me comfortable.

[A]

So those are the external conditions. Yeah. What would be required in terms of internal conditions, meaning you that regardless of what is happening externally, you are comfortable in whatever way you define comfortable, because that's different person to person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What would be the internal conditions that would need to be in place for you to feel comfortable with the discomfort of going through this process?

[B]

I think I have to do that reframe internally in my head to change that narrative to be centered around me being okay with making a decision, a choice to pursue something that makes me happy, and it's a goal and a milestone that I've always wanted. And internally, I have to be okay with that story I'm telling myself wherever I am without worrying about the other people in my life who seem to be fine without me.

[A]

And there may be an and there, you know, you can take care of yourself and them at the same time. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who says it has to be one or the other or that's what you solve for is how do you. I think the conditions you've laid out are to get at that intersection, you know, and what we're really talking about here, Erica, is alignment. Right. There needs to be alignment between the way that you are framing this season that you're in with the actions that you want to take, which is to go out and identify this role and have that be aligned with the outcome which you want, which is, again, I'm fine with whatever you do, but it sounds to me like the outcome you want is. Is to get that C suite level role. What causes the discomfort or what causes it to be harder than we like it to be is when there's misalignment between all of those things. Right. So all we're doing is kind of a chiropractic maneuver realignment of all of those different parts so that they're all operating in a direction or in a way that optimizes you getting to that outcome or positions you as best as possible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Okay. So with that chiropractic alignment, chiropractic realignment, I should say, where are you now versus where we were at the beginning

[B]

of a conversation, I'm actually feeling more hopeful that it's possible. And I don't feel as stuck in a circle. And I'm not thinking too far ahead. I actually see possibility in both me pursuing what I want within those parameters that aligns everything. For example, if I'm close enough to my family, I can get what I want and be happy and be there for them should they need me. It won't be exactly the same as Today when they're 30 minutes down the road and I can drive by and say hello. It would have to be more purposeful and planned, but I can do that. One of the other things I would need is planned time to make sure that I have a family time. So, you know, as I think about those roles, I would definitely not want to take a role that was on call 24 7, 365 days a year with no time to be with my people.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So again, having those conditions, the guardrails, the non negotiables, will be important for you as you try to really meet that intersection of what it is that you want for yourself. Okay. Okay. In what way do you think you can hold yourself accountable to what you've uncovered over the course of this Conversation. In what way do you think you can hold yourself accountable to that outside of this coaching meeting?

[B]

Yeah, that's a good question. I think for me, recognizing the pattern, which I should be able to do by now, recognizing the pattern of circularly getting stuck and not making a choice because I've let the dominoes get too far ahead. So I need to recognize when that happens and pull back and do a reframe of me wanting to be happy and making choices that are aligned. I'm going to have to practice that.

[A]

What I want to invite you to do as you do that is to not beat yourself up when you start that domino effect. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All it is is a reminder that the fact that you even notice, it's like, oh, yep, I'm growing. Right. Like I'm actually recognizing it more and more. And the more you can recognize it, the more you can go back to the reframe your mantra, if you will, the less times you'll have to kind of recalibrate. Okay. Be happy or be gentle with when you need to course correct. It's okay. It's okay. All right. And one accountability tactic that I might give you is maybe you start each day or have a moment each day where you remind yourself of what that reframe is. You know, make it a mantra and put it on a post it note on your mirror, put it on your laptop, whatever it is. But something that says, this is your operating principle right now.

[B]

Yeah, I love it.

[A]

And say, okay, if that's my operating principle, then how do I want to move in terms of actions that I need to take, decisions that I need to make relative to this outcome that I desire.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's perfect. I love that.

[A]

Okay, terrific. Thank you so much.

[B]

Yeah, thank you.

[A]

Any goal you set out to achieve involves trade offs, whether that be long hours, hours at the office, sacrificing time with family, having to drive a long distance, or even giving up other roles that you might have loved. The choice we all have to make is what trade offs and what goals are worth it. Along the way. We make all kinds of small decisions in service of that goal, or we pivot. For Erica deciding on a principle that she can use to make both small and large decisions around her career can help her turn a corner when she gets stuck. And it's important to remember doing this isn't just a one time thing. It takes practice. But knowing that she can make a decision in favor of her happiness and make another decision later if things shift, can go a long way in helping Erica Move forward. That's it for today. Come back in two weeks for a new Coaching Real Leaders Ask Muriel Anything episode where I'll answer your questions, this time with a special guest coach, my friend and host of the Coaching for Leaders podcast, Dave Stahoviak. You won't want to miss it. If you want me to coach you through an issue or or have a question you want answered, head on over to coachingrealeaders.com and let me know. And if you want to unpack the episodes from Coaching Real Leaders, you can join me at coachingrealeaderscommunity.com where I host live discussions about each coaching session you hear on this show. You can also follow me on LinkedIn, Muriel Wilkins and on Instagram oachmurielwilkins. A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you would go to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to. Subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. Thank you to my producer Mary Dew, sound editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, and my Chief of staff Emily Sofa. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. I'm Uriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.