How Do I Adapt My Leadership as My Company Grows?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How Do I Adapt My Leadership as My Company Grows?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Coaching Real Leaders
• Host: Muriel Wilkins (Harvard Business Review)
• Episode: How Do I Adapt My Leadership as My Company Grows?
• Release Date: June 16, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Coaching Real Leaders, renowned executive coach Muriel Wilkins engages in a deep-dive coaching session with Flynn, a successful entrepreneur facing leadership challenges as her company scales. The conversation centers on adapting leadership styles to foster team autonomy, setting consistent expectations, and balancing personal growth with business demands.

Background and Current Challenges

Flynn shares her entrepreneurial journey, highlighting her lifelong immersion in business and her commitment to quality. Despite her company's success, Flynn has recently encountered friction in managing her expanding team.

Flynn [01:47]: “I'm doing everything for everyone. Like me leading this company more looks like me cleaning up everyone's stuff.”

This realization came around a significant personal milestone—a birthday—which prompted her to reassess her leadership approach. Flynn recognized that her hands-on management style was hindering her team's growth and the company's overall efficiency.

Steps Taken to Address Challenges

Determined to evolve, Flynn took proactive steps to enhance her leadership capabilities:

1. Team Reinforcement: She partnered with a headhunter to onboard stronger team members.
2. Delegation: Flynn aimed to empower her team by reducing her direct involvement in day-to-day tasks.

Flynn [02:37]: “I have some great new people, you know, now we want to set this up for success, so I want to make sure I'm structuring my leadership in a new way where they're doing their work. I'm not answering their questions. They don't come to me for everything.”

Developing Leadership Skills

Muriel emphasizes the importance of Flynn's self-development and her willingness to adapt. Flynn admits to struggling with stepping away from micromanaging and expresses a desire to gain confidence in her own ideas rather than defaulting to her team's suggestions.

Flynn [05:02]: “I need to just stop all of that. I'm the boss, and I actually know a lot, and I think I need to be more confident in my ideas because I put money in these other people's ideas, and they really don't know as much as I do.”

Muriel guides Flynn to focus on clarifying her own goals and finding solutions aligned with her vision, rather than seeking validation on her ideas.

Implementing Consistent Structures and Accountability

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around establishing Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) and regular accountability measures. Flynn acknowledges that previously, performance reviews were reactive, occurring only when issues arose.

Flynn [09:05]: “I used to finish people's job and be very hands on, and now I'm leading in a new way and telling them their responsibilities, setting KPIs and speaking to them about their successes and also asking questions to try to get them to answer so they can grow and become independent in their work.”

Muriel advises Flynn to implement consistent, proactive performance conversations to prevent issues from piling up and to foster a culture of continuous improvement.

Muriel [13:59]: “These conversations kind of become an event rather than hard ones. Right. But the fact that you're labeling them as hard rather than saying these are just conversations we need to be having consistently… It's not a hard or easy conversation. It's just a normal conversation to have.”

Overcoming Perfectionism and Embracing Team Autonomy

Flynn grapples with perfectionism, often interfering with her team's autonomy by completing tasks herself. Through the coaching session, she acknowledges the need to trust her team's capabilities and allow them to execute tasks their way, even if it differs from her approach.

Flynn [22:16]: “…if everything's going good, I can keep it casual. And if things aren't going good, I've got to sort of, you know, create a process and structure.”

Muriel reinforces the importance of stepping back and letting the team take ownership, highlighting that leadership involves guiding rather than doing.

Balancing Listening to External Advice and Internal Decision-Making

Flynn discusses her efforts to seek external feedback and advice to drive company growth. She recognizes the value of experienced insights but also emphasizes the importance of making decisions that align with her company's core values and objectives.

Flynn [22:43]: “I make the decision. And I must say that I find that you do have to listen to some of these experienced people for the right questions to ask.”

Muriel advises Flynn to balance external inputs with her own judgment, ensuring that strategic decisions reflect her vision for the company.

Setting Firm Expectations and Saying No

A crucial takeaway from the session is Flynn's realization of the necessity to set clear expectations and the power of saying no to non-essential requests that do not align with her company's priorities.

Muriel [29:28]: “Now, what difference do you think that would make for you and for the team?”

Flynn [29:42]: “I have to remember that.”

By establishing firm deadlines and holding team members accountable, Flynn aims to streamline operations and reduce her workload.

Concluding Insights and Takeaways

The session concludes with Flynn outlining her key takeaways:

1. Consistent Expectation Setting: Implementing clear, measurable KPIs for all team members.
2. Accountability: Regular check-ins to monitor progress and provide feedback.
3. Adaptability: Being open to adjusting strategies based on outcomes.
4. Prioritization: Focusing on company goals and learning to say no to distractions.

Flynn [38:13]: “Don't mind, I'm going to give you the biggest and then the minor, the setting the expectations for each person. And then I have to stay consistent and do that with each team member, whether they're having success or not.”

Muriel underscores the importance of these strategies in freeing up Flynn's time, allowing her to focus on strategic growth rather than day-to-day micromanagement.

Conclusion

Flynn's journey underscores a common challenge faced by growing entrepreneurs: transitioning from hands-on management to strategic leadership. Through self-reflection and actionable strategies, Flynn is poised to foster a more autonomous and accountable team, ensuring sustainable growth and personal balance.

Flynn [42:17]: “…sometimes it's the thinking stuff that's more important than the doing stuff. And I think that's a constant reminder.”

Muriel Wilkins wraps up the episode by highlighting the transformative power of consistent leadership practices and the continuous evolution required to navigate business growth effectively.

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Notable Quotes:

• Flynn [01:47]: “I'm doing everything for everyone. Like me leading this company more looks like me cleaning up everyone's stuff.”
• Flynn [05:02]: “I need to just stop all of that. I'm the boss, and I actually know a lot, and I think I need to be more confident in my ideas because I put money in these other people's ideas, and they really don't know as much as I do.”
• Muriel [13:59]: “These conversations kind of become an event rather than hard ones. Right. But the fact that you're labeling them as hard rather than saying these are just conversations we need to be having consistently… It's not a hard or easy conversation. It's just a normal conversation to have.”
• Flynn [22:16]: “…if everything's going good, I can keep it casual. And if things aren't going good, I've got to sort of, you know, create a process and structure.”
• Flynn [38:13]: “Don't mind, I'm going to give you the biggest and then the minor, the setting the expectations for each person. And then I have to stay consistent and do that with each team member, whether they're having success or not.”

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This episode offers valuable insights for leaders at any stage, emphasizing the balance between guiding a team and empowering them to take ownership, all while maintaining alignment with the company's core objectives.

Transcript

[Muriel Wilkins]

How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com RealLeaders Indeed.com RealLeaders Terms and Conditions apply. Every great leader faces defining moments. If growth is on your horizon, Jobs Ohio is your partner in making it happen seamlessly. With workforce programs ready to build sites and a private funding model that eliminates surprises, Ohio is the strategic move you can trust. Build, innovate and grow with confidence. Get [e-mail] I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Flynn to protect her confidentiality. She's an entrepreneur and has led her business to a fair amount of success. But recently she felt like things weren't going as smoothly as they could and she became frustrated with how effectively the company was running.

[Flynn]

Basically this started I became aware of a need to change and to be honest, it sort of was a big birthday and it may sort of coincide with what people call not a midlife crisis, but like a re contemplation of things. And I realized I was like, wait, I'm doing everything for everyone. Like me leading this company more looks like me cleaning up everyone's stuff. You know, I really took this all seriously. Like there's a lot of things that need to be examined because I'm doing people's work versus leading them to have their greatest success.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Flynn even considered stepping away from the company. But while trying to sort out the issues she faced, she took steps to better develop herself and improve her leadership and brought in some new team members.

[Flynn]

I wanted to find stronger players. I actually worked with a headhunter and I filled some posts with stronger players. It was incredible because the type of people that came were very different than ones I had had in the past. The idea of where I was trying to get is really having people own their work. I have some great new people, you know, now we want to set this up for success, so I want to make sure I'm structuring my leadership in a new way where they're doing their work. I'm not answering their questions. They don't come to me for everything.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Now Flynn wants to make sure she builds back better, putting her own leadership skills in check to avoid a situation where she can't trust her team again. But first, I wanted to go back to the beginning to understand more about why she started her own business in the first place.

[Flynn]

I'm from a world of entrepreneurs, so, I mean, I've had businesses since I was seven on the bus, making things that I sold to my friends. So starting a company is not something unusual. And everyone in my family is an entrepreneur. In my 20s, I had a job that didn't pay very much, and on the side, I started a company which had a structure where I sold to clients that I had met during summer jobs as a student, and I did that on the weekends, and it was very lucrative. That industry changed a little bit, and so I decided to go back to school. So I started. I went to design school. I did all the pattern making. I did all the sewing. So that's where we started. I've shifted as the environment has shifted, and it's always been about quality and not spending money on things other than the quality. We've developed ourselves into somewhat of a brand.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah.

[Flynn]

But I'm finding that I probably need to invest in marketing now because I've been so under the radar that our clients come back, and I've had most of them for the whole time we've been in business and we add. But we now need a new audience, and I'm not sure if I need to shift a little bit and look at where I'm spending my money, because I've gotten some coaches, and they asked me to do things, and I realized I've spent money there where I should look to myself as the expert. Like, why am I doing what you want to do?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, understood.

[Flynn]

Like, I need to be reading and figuring out what our core values are and go one step aside and do what I believe in. Like, I give too much. I need to just stop all of that. I'm the boss, and I actually know a lot, and I think I need to be more confident in my ideas because I put money in these other people's ideas, and they really don't know as much as I do.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. Okay.

[Flynn]

I.

[Muriel Wilkins]

All right, so we're gonna focus today on trying to figure out what your ideas are about, the particular areas that you're challenged with, and see if you can come to Your own conclusions. Right. Like, I think that that's a big part of coaching is understanding what your answers are.

[Flynn]

I've come to a lot of conclusions in like basically writing down what I'm gonna talk to you about and processing it and reprocessing it and like reading these things. And it's hilarious.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Well, this might end up being a very brief coaching meeting.

[Flynn]

No, no, no, no, it won't, because we can take it. But I just been like, what can I do on my own? So that what I do with Muriel is going to be very helpful. Oh my gosh.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Oh my gosh. Okay, so now it sounds like what's happened is there was a period in time where you are finding some challenges with some of your team members. Those team members are no longer there. You now feel like you have pretty good team or a very good team. And so the question is, well, what's the question as it relates. You could sort of say it in a one sentence question. What's the question as it relates to your current team?

[Flynn]

I think that there is still some repositioning of responsibilities where I see weakness in characters. You know, how much do I have to worry about what they're learning and getting. Has this environment really changed? I mean, do I need to do the KPIs and what their goals are personally as well as the corporate goals? Because I feel like coming out of this experience, we're in a whole new world of what people consider work to be.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Consider work to be. Okay. And so what I'm hearing from you is in what ways do you need to adapt, if any?

[Flynn]

If any. And I think I've come up with some things I want to hear. Yes, you support those or think that I don't need to go that far.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Well, let me caveat that whether I support it, it's very interesting because you just said, I don't want, you know, I'm paying all these people to give me ideas and I have to sort of come up with, I realize, like, no, like I know what's right for my company and I can come up with my own answers. And a few minutes later you said, you know, I want to know if you support those ideas. So I think we're going to, during this conversation, actually put into practice what you shared a few minutes ago, which is it really doesn't matter whether I support the idea or not because I'm not the one running this business. You are right. What we'll do is sort of maybe work through like what your different options are. What are the different ways that you're thinking about it and are you coming to a conclusion or are you getting to a decision that is aligned with ultimately what you want for your team and your business? Because that's all really that matters is, is there alignment? Are the decisions that you're making aligned with what you want the outcome to be?

[Flynn]

Agreed. And another thing that I'm really doing is trying to take control of my future, shall we say? Because I think, you know, sometimes I'm going to have to be bold and do things that are uncomfortable. It's my job to restructure things for success for the company.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay. So let's take a step back. Okay. Because what I heard you say is, in what way do you need to lead any differently than you have? Like, do you need to lead a new way so that it adapts to the team that you have? Am I phrasing that right?

[Flynn]

The leading in a new way really has to do with I used to finish people's job and be very hands on, and now I'm leading in a new way and telling them their responsibilities, setting KPIs and speaking to them about their successes and also asking questions to try to get them to answer so they can grow and become independent in their work. And that's been working very well.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay.

[Flynn]

And also I've been giving a lot more responsibility to people instead of micromanaging. And in fact, I'm finding that some people have a lot more talent than you realize and a lot more capabilities. And you also find that some people don't.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right. Okay. So what do you do in the situations where they don't have the capabilities?

[Flynn]

Exactly. What have I done? I tried to do a KPI review. I have not utilized that with all of my team, only where I saw issues. I think that I need to insert KPIs and speak to everyone at a certain cadence to make sure they're growing and the company's moving forward, which takes more work on my part to decide what they are. But I think I'm going to have to start putting that into action because the company stalled in growth a little bit. And I think that's because they haven't held people accountable enough.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay. All right. So I think there's an underlying question here, which is how do you set expectations and hold them accountable to those expectations with consistency and proactively, rather than wait till there's a problem to then hold them accountable retroactively?

[Flynn]

Agreed.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay.

[Flynn]

That's a great question. So I think I need to spend time really Outlining what success looks like in each position, which I have started to do, where people are really performing to a high level. I guess the answer is I still need to do that. Correct?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Well, I mean, let's work through that, right? What do you have to gain and what do you have to lose by doing that across the board? Regardless of what the current performance is.

[Flynn]

In that role, thinking of one role, what you have to lose is that if someone's really at seems to be at a high level and I've been really happy with this person, I don't want them to think I'm being overly judgmental when they are doing a very good job.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And in what way are setting KPIs or setting expectations judgmental?

[Flynn]

Maybe they're not actually, because this person would like to know that they're having success. So talking about the amount of sales coming from their work or the successes of different people, upon thinking about it, they would probably like that. I guess my thought was they might think I was judgy in a creative field. But I think you're right. The person's a professional. They really wouldn't care.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, I mean, you've articulated the thought and I don't know if that thought really serves you right.

[Flynn]

Like doesn't serve me.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I only share expectations or I only share, you know, whether it's in the form of KPIs or any other way, or I only give feedback if the person's not doing a good job. Is that necessarily true?

[Flynn]

I share feedback on a more cash flow basis if it's a good job. So I only hold meetings about these things when disaster is starting to occur.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Got it. So systems and processes don't come into play unless a little bit.

[Flynn]

Because if you're going along well, you're saying what they're doing well as you go. It's just, I think, ah, the hard conversations, I think I maybe not be good at the hard stuff. So it piles up a little bit and then it becomes a more serious meeting. Does that make sense?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, I think it sounds to me that if I was sort of a casual observer in your company and walking around the halls and hung around for a little bit, is that these conversations kind of become an event rather than hard ones. Right. But the fact that you're labeling them as hard rather than saying these are just conversations we need to be having consistently about what the expectations are, how are we meeting expectations, what's working, what's not working, and keeping track of that, if that is happening consistently, it's not a hard or easy conversation. It's just a normal conversation to have. Which by the way is what leads to holding people accountable.

[Flynn]

Ah, I tend to keep track with numbers and excels and then comments on them and then I think one should I should be sharing that information with the people, the different members of the team. So if I'm keeping track, to me it looks more like a monthly meeting where you're going over successes and areas of working too. Because I'm writing it down somewhere if that makes sense versus casual conversation like that was successful. Good email. It should be more numeric and trackable.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Tariff and trade policies are dynamic, supply chain squeezed and cash flow tighter than ever. You need total visibility from global shipments to tariff impacts to real time cash flow. That's NetSuite by Oracle, your AI powered business management suite. Trusted by over 41,000 businesses. NetSuite brings accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one suite to help you know what's stuck, what it's costing you, and how to pivot fast if your revenues are at least in the seven figures. Download the free ebook Navigating Global Trade 3 Insights for Leaders at netsuite.com coachingrealeaders I've got some big news to share. I've got a new book coming out. Leadership Unblocked is launching this October with HBR Press and I can't wait for you to read it. It's filled with insights from my years of coaching executives and a roadmap to help you break free from the mindsets that hold you back from being the leader you want to. You can pre order it now. Just search for Leadership Unblocked wherever you order your favorite books and you'll be among the first to receive a copy. Flynn started her company at the ground level and in part because of that, she's run into some of the pitfalls and ambiguity that comes with entrepreneurship, especially as the company grows. While she originally came to the Coaching center session with issues around underperforming employees, she was ready and willing to think about ways she could take responsibility for that performance and create better systems in the future. That's a good first step, the desire to take accountability and to put in the work of thinking through ways to improve. In some ways, this is just a small slice of an issue that happens with so many leaders. Being able to back away from the day to day crises, focusing on the product and services you're selling and thinking about how you can really scale up your leadership. Sometimes as an entrepreneur, it's even easier to stay in the weeds of doing the work yourself, because you know it so well, and building systems to manage people can be really tricky. But Flynn is ready to take the first steps towards creating a better system. And while it is just one part of the issue she's facing, I think it'll be helpful to talk through it a bit more in depth, to have her test out why and how she might move forward with a different kind of approach. What it sounds like is, in your mind, you are thinking, oh, if everything's going good, I can keep it casual. And if things aren't going good, I've got to sort of, you know, create a process and structure. And maybe, you know, in the spirit of what you said, you know, how do you need to potentially structure your leadership in a new way? Maybe the new way is that there is no. This is what happens when things are good, and this is how I deal with things when things are bad. It's more around how do I ensure that I am managing performance and managing deliverables consistently, and therefore I'm having these meetings and I'm keeping track and I'm sharing feedback one way or the other with a regularity across all of my team members, regardless of where they are.

[Flynn]

Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

What difference do you think that would make for you and for the team?

[Flynn]

For me, I think it would be taking a bit more time to reflect and setting up structure around each person's position, which is fine. And for the team, I think it creates a bit more equity, adaptability in my interaction with each of them. Because if I'm pulling people in who are not having success to go over and try to boost them and help them improve, then it kind of feels like they're being pulled into the teacher's office a little bit. When, if people are successful, I'm not having the same time with them in a formal meeting.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Mm. So there's a certain. It becomes an expectation of you in terms of the way that you lead them.

[Flynn]

Yes. But I can see the success of that already. I also do think that me restructuring someone who is not having success leading is an obvious thing to do. So I need to be comfortable, you know, shifting people's positions.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah.

[Flynn]

As appropriate.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And what is your level of comfort with doing that now?

[Flynn]

I've been moving forward with that quite a bit recently. So if you had spoken to me last year before I had done all of this work, I would not have been comfortable with it, but I really have gotten very comfortable with it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay.

[Flynn]

And I think then the next question is, how do we lead this company to more Growth. And then the other thing is my needing to really look inward and think of my ideas and maybe setting up a board of people and not sometimes I'm giving a little too much credit to the louder people.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So you named something for you which is around listening to the louder voices more in the room rather than to your own voice.

[Flynn]

Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I'm curious what that's about.

[Flynn]

I do think that I'm working on personally. I'm a middle of five children and I have a very demanding family and I think I've been very good at doing things very well to sort of have success and never be the person who's looked closely at, I mean, I mean like I had all straight A's, a pluses, got into every university. I mean, I just was very good at. No one will bother me if I just get it done perfectly and then I can go on my merry way. Whereas, you know, other people were pointed out and lauded at the dining table every night. So I think this keeping my head down has shaped the company a little bit, us being under the radar. And now if I want us to be bigger and more, it comes both in conversation with loud people and with what we do marketing wise with the company. And I'm just gonna have to get comfortable with that.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And what would it take for you to get comfortable with that?

[Flynn]

I just think I have to get out of my comfort zone. And I'm not sure how I do that exactly, but.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Well, what would that look like? Like, let's say tomorrow you called me and you said, oh my God, Muriel, I got out of my comfort zone today. I kept my head up. You know, I didn't keep my head down right. I had my head up.

[Flynn]

Well, I've been practicing, I've been calling other people in the industry to get feedback in the attempts to have growth. I've reached out to very interesting people. I guess the concern of a consultant is you're taking the louder voice again and empowering them. But I just felt that I've been doing what I've been doing for 20 years and we haven't grown enough. So as much as you want to listen to your own voice, you also want the wisdoms of people who have had great success.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah.

[Flynn]

So that's a balance I need to find.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. So I think that getting information from others is certainly helpful and at the end of the day, recognizing that getting information from others isn't necessarily going to give you the answer and that the role that you're in, the position that you're in Ultimately, who drives the answer? Who makes the decision?

[Flynn]

I make the decision. And I must say that I find that you do have to listen to some of these experienced people for the right questions to ask. And if you're trying to examine like I was examining how I was leading, I was following up and finishing people's work and just me holding back and challenging them to do their own work and being patient, and even worse, when you have maybe a little bit of perfectionism in you is watching them do it, saying to yourself, okay, they're not going to do it like I would do it. But that's. I hired them to do a job, and me finishing it doesn't allow me to do my job, which is to review people, help them grow, ask them questions, challenge them, and think of how to bring the company forward. So, I mean, you have to be okay with things not being done as you would do them, because that's a hard thing.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, it sounds like you're doing all the things in support of what you're saying you want to do, which is listening to your own voice, being able to get out of your comfort zone, adding some structures and systems to your company. Now, is it hard?

[Flynn]

Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And that's okay. Why shouldn't it be hard?

[Flynn]

True. Well, I'm trying to get some time back in my life because I've been working too much. And so to do all of that and to have time for the rest of your life is the biggest goal here, because I think that I've put too much work in my life. So to be able to do this succinctly is the big question so that you can live your fuller other parts of your life.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. I mean, that's a big question for a lot of us. Right. And it comes back down to the decisions you make. But it sounds like what you're doing is trying to set yourself up so that it frees up some of the time that you were getting caught up in before, which is doing everything for everybody else.

[Flynn]

Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right. So all the research you're doing and working with, you know, external folks and having a team in place, developing your team, are all of those things in service also of you being able to free up some of your own time down the road?

[Flynn]

Yeah, I'm getting there.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. Well, what is the there?

[Flynn]

There is when people really can do their own jobs and I'm not doing them for them, and I don't feel like everything's on my shoulders and that I have people that are more talented than Me doing their areas of the company. Because when I was in the trenches more, once I started getting out of the trenches, I realized people weren't doing what they were supposed to do and they were doing a lot of things incorrectly.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay. So I would love for you to write down those things. Right. People are doing their own job. You mentioned a few things. I would love for you to write them down as your own KPIs. Right. And think about it in terms of, okay, if a year from now all of those KPIs are met, what do I have to put in place between now and then that will move me closer to those goals? Because it's not just going to, as you know, and I'm not suggesting that's what you're doing, but it's not just going to magically happen.

[Flynn]

No.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right. And so you're taking initial steps to get there, but it's, you know, you have to keep track of it. You have to reassess. If you put a system in place in a couple of months, look at the system, is that actually working in a way that's helping me not be as involved, or is there something else different that I have to try? So there is some trial and error with management, quite frankly.

[Flynn]

Okay. The holding them accountable and staying on top of that and things are going well is easy to not stay on top of. And as far as leadership, I really need to get my hands around structuring good KPIs.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I think I would start for you in terms of thinking around what are the expectations and objectives? What do I want each of these roles, regardless of who sits in them, to be able to achieve within a period of time and why? Why are those the things that need to be achievable? It should be to serve something for the company and then making sure that they are things that are realistic and that folks have the resources to be able to actually deliver on and that are visible and measurable.

[Flynn]

Okay.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So I think be careful of getting wrapped up in the word KPI and sort of think about it in terms of, am I, am I setting expectations? Didn't people know what it is that they are ultimately responsible for? Right. What success looks like, how they're being measured, what outcomes are we driving to so that we can make sure that everybody's, you know, moving in the same direction.

[Flynn]

Okay. And staying on top of that?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, you're right. So they need to stay consistent. They need to be looked at.

[Flynn]

What is the timetable that you have a meeting like this? Is it monthly? Is it I think it depends.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I mean, everybody's different. So I think you have to sort of look at your team and say, what's gonna make the most sense for my team? Do I need it to be more frequent? Does it need to be one on one? Do we need to be doing this as a team? And this is kind of where it goes back to. Ultimately, you choose. And if you find that it's not meeting the KPIs that you set for yourself around creating more time, making sure that they can make their own decisions, that they are moving accordingly to points, then you reassess. You say, oh, okay, we've been doing monthly meetings, maybe we should be doing weekly meetings. So there's an adaptability that would be helpful. And yes, a formula to all of this certainly would be nice. But make sure you write that formula in pencil. Because part of the skill of being able to be an effective leader is understanding that sometimes you have to change the formula as you're working it. And that's okay.

[Flynn]

Okay.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay.

[Flynn]

And I think for myself, saying no is something I have to do.

[Muriel Wilkins]

No? No to what?

[Flynn]

To some things that people request I please a bit too much sometimes because that then costs us money that we can't spend on what I think our priorities are.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. So this is why, like, knowing what's important to you up front can help frame that. You have to have clarity around what's important because that then helps drive what you say yes or no to.

[Flynn]

Okay. And I have to remember that.

[Muriel Wilkins]

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[Flynn]

Yes. I just think I'm not pushing them forward enough or holding them accountable enough.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. And so. Cause I feel like this would be a good closing. Like, now. Do you have a sense of how you could keep them accountable enough?

[Flynn]

Well, I just need to sit down and really structure each person's world. I just have to not be afraid to ask and be on people's tail a little bit.

[Muriel Wilkins]

What do you want to have happen?

[Flynn]

I guess I need to just put down a firm deadline. This is what it has to be done by. And I know that sounds strange, but I always used to just stay here and do it with them. But I want it to be done without me. I mean, that's why I'm paying you quite a bit to do this position.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Tell me what it would sound like for you to be able to give her a definitive deadline as you just stated.

[Flynn]

Then there's, oh, it took longer than I thought it would take. And then she'll say, but I want to do it myself. I mean, this is the type of thing I'm hearing.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay. And so ultimately, then who. Who makes the call?

[Flynn]

The call.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Who makes the call to be able to meet the deadline that you want. How does it get resolved ultimately?

[Flynn]

Oh, it hasn't. Deadline's just don't get met.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, so let's imagine a scenario where the deadline does get met.

[Flynn]

Then I say, please pull in this other person to help you with this project. Like, you can't do it yourself. It just. It needs to get done. There is no. It just has to get done, period. The end. Like, that's not an option.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right. And so is that something that you're already doing, following that path?

[Flynn]

No, but I will. And I like this suggestion. And the other thing that happens is things don't get done well because there's not enough oversight, which is how I was previously leading because my attention was too much in the details and I wasn't seeing that certain people weren't doing their job.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I want to sort of make the discernment between the behavior you used to have, which is I do things for everyone versus, you know, I need to teach, guide, and hold accountable. Those are two different things. And that's also very different than not doing anything. I'm just gonna let them figure it out.

[Flynn]

Yes. Which is interesting. Cause I must say tend to be figuring things out quite well. And sometimes when I let other people figure it out, it can go poorly. But I have held back and seen where it's had success. So I like this idea of adaptability, the idea of moving out of a world of black and white and making sure your first step is letting them do it themselves. And you can watch a struggle, but if you see it going, I do think there's a place sometimes that you should jump in.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah.

[Flynn]

So I think maybe I have to lead with not trying to find the rules, but understanding that I'm going to have to grow as a leader and try things out, if that makes sense. I think the perfect gets in the way of the good. And I probably need to remember that. Does that make sense?

[Muriel Wilkins]

It makes a ton of sense.

[Flynn]

Because I didn't do the expectations because I couldn't figure out how to do them just the right way. And there's a lot that got in the way of my own mind in setting these expectations and then saying this to you. Now I'm realizing that. So I can set them and maybe they won't be perfect, but then I can adjust them. But the fact is not setting them is not an option. Because I've known I've had to do this for quite some time. But in trying to get the right ones, haven't done them for everyone. I've only done Them for the people. I see errors occurring.

[Muriel Wilkins]

That's right. And in looking for the quote unquote, right. One you are setting up, there's a rule. It's either this or it's that. There's not. I mean, you are in a creative profession, so you know yourself. Yes. There are fundamentals. There's foundational things. Right. I would assume. But then there's a whole, you know, gradient of different ways of doing things. And it's okay. But you've got to figure out what's going to work for a particular client, a particular style, a particular, you know, whatever is happening. It's the same with managing. So when you look at the situation, you look at the request, you look at the person, you can then say, okay, you know, tried it this way, didn't work. Let's try a different way. I think what's important is that you stay clear around that expectations, the outcomes you're looking to drive to is ultimately what's going to dictate how you manage the situation.

[Flynn]

Yes. And also in keeping everyone happy all the time, which I have traditionally done, it's been at the detriment of me and the company. So hitting a certain moment in my life has made me. And just saying I need to change everything has gotten me better at that. But it's funny how it hits you like a brick wall when you're suddenly. It's like that moment that you're like, I'm just not putting up with anything anymore.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right, Right.

[Flynn]

I don't know. That's what I've experienced.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. Yeah. All right, so let me hear from you. I know we've talked through a lot of different things, but let me hear from you. Sort of maybe your one big takeaway coming out of this conversation, if you.

[Flynn]

Don'T mind, I'm going to give you the biggest and then the minor, the setting the expectations for each person. And then I have to stay consistent and do that with each team member, whether they're having success or not. Yeah. And the adaptability in all of the above. And then I think the other big thing is keeping what the company needs in the forefront of my mind. So someone asks for permission for something, I really need to say, what are our priorities? Does it meet that and not be the person that I tend to be? Where you like to say yes and keep it easy and keep things smoothly, running along like that really does not have a place as a CEO or leader of a company. I just need to take that out of my vocabulary altogether. They ask me something I can say I will get back to. I need to see if it serves the company.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And that is a unique role that you play as leading this company. Right. That's the voice. That's where your voice shines. Okay.

[Flynn]

Yes. Which I think I need to do more. I think that I have had an experience of the tail wagging the dog for a bit too long, and I am a gatekeeper, and I need to stand proudly at the gate.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah.

[Flynn]

Which includes expectations. I mean, all of this is the same thing.

[Muriel Wilkins]

That's right. Right. So it's sitting fully in your seat as the gatekeeper, the expectation setter.

[Flynn]

Yes. And it needs to free me up so that I can figure out what's next. Because if I'm too busy in the trenches or do, you know, finishing up, I can't. I don't have time to work on the company.

[Muriel Wilkins]

That's right. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you have a path forward or something that can help guide how you operate moving forward. Try those out. Try leading with that approach. It's going to feel uncomfortable at times. That's okay. And see how it plays out for you. And if it's not working, then you adjust a little bit, and that's okay. All right.

[Flynn]

Okay. I do want to thank you because you taking this call had led me to do so much work to get here that I come a long way.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Well, what the beautiful thing about that is that I think what that shows is that you have a lot of the knowledge already, and maybe it's taking that time to actually sit and think through it and reflect on it and process it out and ask yourself the questions and write it out will let the answers emerge for you. Okay.

[Flynn]

Then taking that time. So you really need to set. You know, you're not here to do work every day. You need to set aside that time to really think it through.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Well, that is the work. That is the work. That's part of the work. See it as part of your job. That's part of the gig. Right. Is doing exactly what you did to get prepared for this meeting, which, yes.

[Flynn]

Takes the time. More time thinking than anything else, which is interesting.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So maybe that should be a practice as well. Something that you put as part of your repertoire. Maybe it's one hour a week or something that you just schedule it in as a meeting with yourself or daily. You're doing 20 minutes of just writing out your thoughts, your journaling about work.

[Flynn]

Thank you for your time and thank you. Yeah, I just think slowing down, down. And I'm a doer so it's hard to realize that in this case, as a leader, sometimes it's the thinking stuff that's more important than the doing stuff. And I think that's a constant reminder.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Beautiful, Beautiful. Awesome. Thank you.

[Flynn]

Thank you.

[Muriel Wilkins]

As the leader of an organization, especially when you started, there isn't always a clear path to where to go next. You don't have the same kind of structure that might be laid out in a traditional organization. Flynn came to the table looking for help in setting her team up for success. To get there, she needed to look beyond tactical skills and structures that she'd relied on in the past. Now it was about scaling up her leadership and holding her team accountable by clearly communicating her expectations, creating systems, and challenging herself to stay consistent. To do that successfully will also mean a shift in perspective from one of I need to get things done and solve problems to I need to guide others to be able to solve problems themselves. Part of what was holding Flynn back was a particular way of thinking about her organization and what she could and couldn't do. By letting go of such limiting beliefs, it opens up new opportunities for Flynn and her team. And now it comes down to her doing her work so that the organization can get to the next level. That's a wrap on this this season of Coaching Real Leaders. I'll be busy this summer prepping for the release of my new book, Leadership Unblocked, where I break down the limiting beliefs that derail leaders and how they can overcome them. You can pre order it [e-mail] or wherever you get your favorite books. We'll be back with more Coaching Real Leaders in the fall, so in the meantime, catch up on old episodes. Apply to beyond the show or or join the Coaching Real leaders [e-mail] and follow me on LinkedIn, Murielwilkins and Instagram oachmurielwilkins. If you love Coaching Real Leaders, be sure to tell your friends about it. Or better yet, head over to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to. Subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. Thanks to my producer Mary Dew, Sound editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sofa, and the entire team at hbr. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From HBR Podcast Network, I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.