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Coaching Real Leaders
How Do I Address Feedback on Increasing My Visibility?
00:53:27
She’s recently switched industries and has seen her fast-paced leadership growth stall out. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through understanding the feedback she’s receiving, what it means to her organization, and what might help get her back on track. Further reading: How to Become More Visible at Work How to Make Your Leadership Potential More Visible 10 Ways To Raise Your Internal Visibility At Work How to Raise Your Visibility at Work See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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- [00:02]
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KPMG makes the difference by creating value like developing strategic insights that help drive M and a success, or embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage. KPMG make the Difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us insights.
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Too many change frameworks are out of date for today's demands. Change Signal is the podcast for modern Change Mastery. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're an ambitious change leader, Change Signal will be your favorite podcast Muriel I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting with focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Jada to protect her confidentiality. She's experienced positive career momentum in the past, frequently getting promotions and advancing through the ranks.
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I really learned out of that that I love people. My soft skills seem to be something that gets me into places and rooms. I was promoted pretty often and quickly in the beginning of those stages and got to learn even more about what I was good at, what I wasn't good at, what I liked, what I didn't like.
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B
While she was proud of her achievements, Jada also recognized that there were things about the industry she started her career in that she didn't like as much that weren't really aligned with her values. And so she transitioned to the tech sector where she could focus on strategy and big picture planning, among other things. But making that switch also came with some downsides.
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A
I knew that changing industries would potentially involve moving backwards to move forward, so that has happened and I was okay with that. I was a little disappointed that the growth that I saw previously in my old industry hasn't been happening as quickly quickly as it has been in this one. But generally I'm loving the work. I find it extremely challenging. I love a challenge. I'm getting to a place now where it's feeling a little less challenging and more comfortable and I would like to get back into a space where I'm on my toes.
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B
Jada's hoping to get back on the promotion track in managing teams. In order to do that I started by asking a bit more about the slower career growth she's experiencing and what she thinks might be behind it.
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I've asked for feedback about this from direct managers, from managers in other parts of the company who still kind of see my work, and from my immediate managers. I get told that I need to work on my visibility. It's really shocked me because we had a change in leadership and I went to my new manager and asked them for some feedback on what I could be doing to grow. And they said, visibility also. And I was like, wow, this is really interesting because the old manager and the new manager never spoke to each other. I don't think they had any notes they compared about me. And what I couldn't help thinking about was in my previous industry, the feedback that I often got there was around. Exactly. Executive presence. You know, back then I kind of attributed the executive presence with being young looking young. But now in my new industry, I'm usually one of the older people in the room. And it's just really interesting to have seen across two different spaces how I've gotten feedback that's related more to other people's perception of me and not really about my performance and work.
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B
Okay, and so what do you make of that? You said it's interesting that across two spaces you've gotten feedback based on the perception of you rather than the actuality of your work. How does that land with you?
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A
So I have two different thoughts on this, and I'm not sure where to land. One is it's absolutely right and I'm the problem and I've got to figure out how to fix this thing and address it. But more recently, I'm doubting that the visibility is the real feedback that I need to hear. I believe I'm pretty active in my company. I'm visible in my company. People see me, I'm very engaged. I'm in lots of different groups. One of the things recently that I've been trying to work on is a little more self promoting, but I am very visible. So I. I'm not sure if maybe I'm understanding visibility incorrectly or is it that the managers are not giving me the real feedback that I need to hear.
- [05:46]
B
All right, and so is that while you're sitting here. It is, it is. So let me just make sure that I've heard you correct in terms of everything that's happened. It sounds like in the past setting that you were organizations that you were, the promotions came from fast and furious. And even though you did get feedback on your executive Presence, you still were advanced. Fast forward, you've transitioned to a new space, a new sector. You feel like you're doing the work and you are being seen or you're out there, you're active within the organization and yet the promotions are not happening as quickly. And you feel like the feedback you've gotten from two data points are around your visibility. Yep, that's correct. And so are you attributing the lack of promotion to this visibility aspect?
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A
Mostly, I think that's all I know. Like if I'm going off of what I'm being told, that is the constant. I haven't gotten any real feedback about any other areas of my work that seem to be holding me back. So I don't know that it's anything else.
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B
Okay, understood. And so let me just. Because it's important that we understand what is in your control and what is out of your control. And so when you say the promotions are not happening as quickly, what are you comparing that to?
- [07:19]
A
I'm comparing it to other employees who joined the company when I did or even after, who have less experience in certain avenues than I have.
- [07:32]
B
Okay, so you are comparing it to internal candidates, not comparing it to how quickly you were getting promoted in a different sector or a different organization. Nope. That's an important data point, right. To understand, to make sure that we're looking at it within the context that you're in. And then when they say visibility to you, how do you define what visibility is?
- [07:58]
A
For me, visibility was ensuring that when we have, you know, company wide events that I get an opportunity to present, or if we are in virtual sessions, that I am contributing in our sessions. We have other means of communicating and I ensure that I am asking questions, I'm praising other people, I'm telling, you know, stories from our customers. Like that to me was what visibility would be about.
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B
And so when you now think about you doing all those things and then getting feedback about, you need to be more visible. Have you thought about what else visibility might mean or what else it could incorporate?
- [08:49]
A
I did do some thinking on that. That's where the idea of, I hate the word self promoting, but I thought that it was maybe important to ensure that the visibility that I have is showing not just me being out there, but how does the work that I do impact the company. And so I've done a little bit more of filtering the visibility I have. I'm often known in our company as kind of a culture person. Like when there's something fun to do, let's tap her she can, you know, get everybody to have fun and engaged. And so I've been saying no to some of those opportunities and ensuring that anything that I say yes to are places where I can say, I did this. And the impact on the company was. That's been a little more recent, but it is one thought I had on how I could do a little better with this visibility.
- [09:51]
B
Yeah. I mean, look, I think that that is a part of it. Right. Because visibility, for the sake of visibility, is just showing up. Yeah. As you put it, being out there. And it's like, okay, but being out there for what? And is the way that you're out there relevant to those who ultimately need to be impacted by that visibility or who matter in terms of what your goal is, which is to advance? So when you think about making your visibility matter, making it relevant. Right. Like, think about it in terms of. Well, this is the thought that's coming to mind. It's like when you scroll through, you know, social media and, like, you get ads and you're like, why is this in my feed? Yeah. Like, it's visible, you know, but it's not relevant. Yeah. And then you get the one that you're like, oh, yeah. Like, how did they even know that I was thinking that? Like, were they, you know, were they listening to the conversation that I was having with my friend literally 10 minutes ago? So relevant. Okay. Yeah. And so when you think about it that way, that's the relevancy. And my question to you is, what would be the algorithm that you would need to have to be able to be relevant to those stakeholders?
- [11:10]
A
Our company obviously has, like, a vision, a mission. We have our. Our company goals. I think that maybe most recently, the visibility that I've been trying to do that was intentionally aligned with impact to the company has been a little more align to our mission and vision. And maybe I could do some more strategic, intentional visibility work around company goals and ensuring that the people who can make the decisions of my promotions, of my growth, of my development, that my visibility is aligned with the things that are important to them and maybe not what I assumed it to be.
- [11:57]
B
Yeah. And so there's this dissonance between potentially between what you assume is important and what is actually important. And I don't know what is important because, you know, because those stakeholders are not sitting here with us, and I don't get a chance to speak to them in this situation. But do you have a sense of what's important to them? Like, what keeps them up at night?
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A
Yes, I have Unique insight into that because I'm kind of an extrovert at work and I have no problem just scheduling a meeting with someone and talking to them about, so tell me what keeps you up at night? And I have a lot of insight from our directors and VPs on what is a priority to them particularly and not just for their team or what's being spoken to the company. So I do know we have some product changes that are going on and I know making sure those get rolled out smoothly is top of mind for them. A few things like that.
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B
Okay. I think it would be critical to figure out what is on their critical path to ensure that you are on that path. Right. Because the question is, again, you're visible. You're visible on a particular path, but is that the critical path? And that's part of what you have to find out and what you have at your disposal. As you said, it sounds like you have the wherewithal to go and talk to folks and ask the questions. Right. I think it's more a matter of what are the questions that you should be asking. Yeah. And so in this case, if you were to sit down with. And we'll talk about the stakeholders soon, but like if you were to sit down with some of these folks, what would be the questions that you would ask that you haven't yet asked that would give you more clarity around how you make your visibility relevant?
- [13:54]
A
So it's funny that you asked the question about what keeps you up at night, because that is one of the questions I often ask them. But maybe, you know, recently I was reading about prioritizing time and resources and I was kind of fumbling around with the question of if you could devote 10% more of your resources, whether that's time, personnel, budget, to another project that's going on, what would that project be like? I'm very curious to know where would they love to spend more time and more resources that aren't getting that, that might be something that bubbles up into what is a priority for them. I don't think asking them about where they're spending their time now necessarily gives me insight into their priorities because I think, you know, whatever's on fire is usually getting more of your time than what a priority might be.
- [14:54]
B
So I think, you know, in terms of what questions to ask, you can be at the macro level, which is what keeps you up at night. And then there are more granular kind of zooming in micro questions which are these project oriented, you know, what very tactical sort of what saves you time Et cetera. And there's probably a whole range in between. But what is clear is that even in asking them, you want to frame it in a way where you can walk away with understanding what has the most weight. Right. What is most important, what is causing the most heartburn. So that if there is an opportunity for you to focus and contribute to relieving that heartburn, then that makes it relevant. I like that. Either relieving the heartburn because you're problem solving and taking it away, or you're being opportunistic and you're creating value in a way that then relieves whatever the challenges are. If that makes sense. It does.
- [16:01]
A
I do think I could take advantage better of my time in these chats with other people by asking better questions. I think more of my intention with those meetings previously had been for people to see me, for me to get an opportunity to talk about what I was doing, build relationships. But investing a little bit more into those other people, I think, and asking the good questions will be really helpful.
- [16:35]
B
While it might feel like semantics, being clear about what we mean is really useful when working through a challenge, in Jada's case, she used the word visibility and was struggling to understand what her managers meant by it. But I wasn't quite sure how she defined it for herself either. And using my own definition wouldn't be helpful. I have to meet her where she is. When you think of a term like visibility, it can mean different things to different people. For some, it. It can simply mean speaking in meetings and joining groups at the organization. Or you can expand your definition of visibility to being seen as doing what leadership and the company views as most valuable in the current context, as in Jada's case. Sometimes there's a mismatch between what you may be doing, how you're defining success, and how others might be defining it. Getting specific about what those differences are, are, is really useful before moving to problem solving. It's a good sign that Jada is already taking the initiative and trying to have conversations with leaders at her organization. So the question is whether she's leveraging those conversations to better inform her as to what leaders are really looking for. Those conversations need to be focused, and so I wanted to zero in on how relevant she's positioning herself in those discussions. Let's jump back in as she explains what her approach has been in these discussions, what she's been talking about, and with who.
- [18:06]
A
I think I have been aiming for people that are outside of our department, just some cross teams that I don't always have the need to work with very often. I thought at the time that being, you know, a mile wide versus an inch deep was a smarter strategy. But now talking to you, I'm kind of questioning that maybe I should be spending more time with the people in my team versus other departments who have less to do with my growth and development. Those are probably people who would be advocates or sponsors. And while it is helpful to talk to them, I don't know that it's immediately helping me with this issue.
- [19:01]
B
Okay. All right. So that's a great distinction. Right. It's like, how deep do you go? If you think about it sort of as a T model, you know, there's the vertical, which is I'm going to have deep visibility internally in my world, on my team, in my group, in my division. And then the top part of the T, the horizontal part, is I'm going to go broad across the organization so that people know me and there are clearly benefits to both. Yeah, right. And so part of what you're saying is you've been focused more on the horizontal in terms of the breadth. And has that come. Let me just ask you for clarity for me, has that come at the expense of the depth within your group, the vertical within your group?
- [19:49]
A
100%, yes.
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B
Okay. And has it come at an expense vertically, sort of downward, meaning people more junior than you or people more senior than you or both?
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A
I would say I'm generally more senior.
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B
You have done more senior. Yeah. Ok, got it. So in what way has it been at the expense of downstream, vertically, within.
- [20:11]
A
Your team, Vertically, downward. People see what I'm doing broadly, and that has probably been why I've gained more of a reputation for being this strong culture person. They see me bringing together people from across teams versus maybe being more strategically minded, working on our internal projects like I do some of that work, but I don't know that people see me as the expert on those things. And so I think that's how it has kind of taken me away from that.
- [20:48]
B
Yeah.
- [20:49]
A
Type of visibility, I guess.
- [20:51]
B
Yeah, yeah. So there's a part of like you're known, Right. You're known as a culture carrier. You're known as a good person. I'm just going to label it as that and I'm just going to push it. You react to what I'm saying. Do you imagine that there's a question around, but what does she really do or what does she really deliver?
- [21:10]
A
There's the potential for that being true.
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B
Yeah, yeah. And so part of it is as you're building kind of your story and your narrative and giving it this visibility piece to it, there is, yeah, of course you want to be known, but then there's the what do you want to be known for? For. And I haven't quite heard from you. It sounds like you're known as the culture carrier. Yeah, but what I haven't heard is, is that what you want to be known for? And does the person who's known primarily as the culture carrier within your organization, is that the currency that gets them advanced?
- [22:01]
A
It is not the currency that gets them advanced. I mean, I do enjoy some of that culture work, but at the end of the day, I know for promotions and advancements that unless there's a culture problem, that is not going to be anything that's particularly helpful for me.
- [22:22]
B
So what do you want to be known for? What do you want to be known for? And then what do you think you need to be known for to be advanced? Which is. Which are two different questions.
- [22:29]
A
Yeah, I'm going to start with what I think I need to be known for, which is being a strategic thinker, adding value and impact to the company, which is going to, at the end of the day be how do I. How do I make the company more money? What I want to be known for. I want to be known for being a great team player, someone who is easy to work with, who's a great brainstormer, who brings innovative ideas, who works well with others, really, at the end of the day.
- [23:05]
B
Okay, and so what would it look like for you to be known for both?
- [23:10]
A
Ooh, that's a great question. I think it would have to do with working on projects with people from within my division and maybe leading those projects from time to time, but really being a great collaborative person on those and making sure that the projects are the strategic ones. Now we do a lot of project work internally and many times those can be things that you're working on individually and maybe me looking for more opportunities for the projects that involve working on a team.
- [23:51]
B
Okay. All right. And so when you think about that as the potential path to get you more visibility in a way that's relevant. Right. That you are working collaboratively on projects that have that strong strategic element to them. What is the difference between doing that and what you're currently or have been doing?
- [24:17]
A
I would say I've done some group team project work. It has not been considered the type of things that are strategic, that are impactful, business wise for the company. I think the work that I would have to do to get on those types of projects is let people know I'm looking for that. Sometimes those projects exist and people get assigned to do those types of things because the director needs this done and puts together a group of people. It's not necessarily asked widely, hey, we have this project. Who wants to volunteer? And it seems like maybe the broad work that I have been doing is more of who wants to volunteer to do this? And I need to be one of those people who get picked to work on these, who got selected.
- [25:12]
B
All right, so if the visibility that you need to attain, if we were to measure it right, like come back a year from now and say one of the measures of success for this visibility is that you are now selected for some of these projects, what would you need to be doing differently in terms of your visibility? Because again, you are doing things to be visible. I just don't think it's getting you what you want. So how would your visibility need to look and feel different in order for us to be able to visibly see an uptick in you being selected or increase the probability of you being selected for these types of projects?
- [25:59]
A
So right away I'm thinking, like, I can continue to have those meetings with, you know, senior people in the company, but I need to maybe focus those on the people within my division. You know, when I ask better questions during this time with them, yes, the question should be figuring out what their priorities are, but also considering how can this be something that I'm working on, even asking them, have you thought of putting together a group to work on this thing? I would love to be a part of that. I think I have to let them know. I can't expect them to read my mind and just put me on projects. I think the first and foremost thing is letting them know this is the type of thing I want to be doing.
- [26:44]
B
That's right. Okay, so A, you've got to let them know, like, why you're even there, why are you visible in front of them? Right? Like, what is it that you want? And so that's making the ask and making it clear what it is that you're hoping for. The second is, would it be clear to them what value you would be bringing by them bringing you on one of these projects?
- [27:11]
A
No, I don't think that it is always clear, especially when I'm talking to people who don't directly manage me. So they don't see what my strengths are in my work. They don't know my work at all sometimes. So I can't Expect them to know what value I would bring.
- [27:35]
B
And so when we don't know the value that we're bringing and we're not articulating it, what it feels like in those conversations, even when we're making an ask, is, oh, here's what you, manager, let's say leader can offer me, but we're not really responding to what do I have to offer, even if not asked. Right. What do I have to offer the manager? And particularly in an element like what you described, which is, you know, it's a staffing issue, you want to be picked. Well, what are they picking you for? You pick something because you believe it has something to offer you. Yeah. And when you think about some of these folks that you have to deal with what is important to them. Right. Like think about being in their shoes when they have to select somebody to work on these strategic projects. If you were in their shoes, what would those individuals need to be able to offer and bring to the table to make them pickable?
- [28:33]
A
Yeah. I'm really interested in actually finding that out, maybe in these chats. Moving forward. I'm curious to know if our leadership puts together together teams based on product knowledge or are they also looking for, you know, someone who works well with others, which was important to me. But if that's not what they need for their teams, then I will need to sell the value of having me on the team a little differently.
- [29:02]
B
And part of what you might want to explore, Jada, is not necessarily that it's mutually exclusive, Right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, because I'm hearing you say, if what they don't want is the collaboration and. And though getting along with other people and working well with them, which are all the things that you have as strengths, then maybe, you know, I've been off all along. And what I'm suggesting is it's not say that those things are not valued is, are they the things that actually get you in the door. Right. Right. Like think about going to a concert. Right. I'm going to go to the Beyonce concert in a few weeks. So it's top of mind. You know, what gets me in the door is the ticket. Yeah. And then once I'm there, I can offer all the other offer. I mean, I don't know if I'm there to offer, but I can do all the other things. Right. Like I can dance and sing and have a good time, but if I don't have the ticket to get in, I'm not going to be inside that concert. Yeah. I'll be watching the Videos on Instagram, Right? Yeah. So what is the ticket of entry? What is, you know, for me, the ticket to entry is it's actual cash currency. And that's why I keep coming down to, okay, what's the currency that you bring? Is it. I need somebody who can really deliver, somebody who I don't have to worry about them doing the work. Is it the expertise, as you put it? Yeah. Is it, you know, what is that actual ticket to entry that makes one more prone to being selected in these types of projects versus not. And I think that's the part that you sort of have to hone in on.
- [30:42]
A
I agree with you and I think I may have made some assumptions early on about what that ticket was, and I have not asked directly to anyone about what that ticket is.
- [30:55]
B
What's the assumption that you made?
- [30:58]
A
I think some of those things that I want to be known for, like being a great team player and getting along with others and being good at brainstorming and supporting people, were what the leaders wanted in creating these teams. And I think maybe there was even a little assumption that the leadership thought I knew what the ticket was. And I might need to get some clarity on that.
- [31:26]
B
Yeah. And it might be that all of those things they actually do want, it's just not what is most important. Yeah. And as much as I'm not a believer in or I don't encourage people to say, oh, well, look at what everybody else is doing, what are they doing? You know, and do the same thing. I would never say that. That said, there is something to be learned by others. Experiences, not so much around, oh, I need to be doing exactly what they're doing. But to give you a sense of, well, what am I seeing? What's the hypothesis around what the currency is here? So that then I can make an informed decision as to whether that's the type of currency that I want to be involved in. You know what I'm saying? Right. Like, I just had to say, send some graduation gifts to my kids, friends. And I reached out and I said, okay, like, I want to send you a gift. What is it? Someone said, cash app. I don't do Cash app. Okay, you gotta choose a different currency, right? Yeah, yeah. If you want the gift. If you don't, then, you know, so it's not a right or wrong, but you then make an informed decision. So I say on that, say when you. Look, you mentioned that there are other people in your organization who joined at the same time or later than you, who tend to not necessarily just get promoted. Because now we've sort of peeled the onion back. Get selected for these types of projects that provide them with the visibility to then position them to get promoted. Increase the probability of being promoted. What is it that you're seeing as their currency, if anything, at this point that you believe is different than what you lead with in terms of currency?
- [33:14]
A
So one of the things off the top of my head that they often have in common are being very detail oriented. Great eye for the small things, for gaps and processes, for a what if scenario that nobody had thought of. Like, they're really, really great at those very detailed things where I tend to be much more big picture. They're also extremely organized. I'm pretty organized. I don't think that's a big deal. They work well independently, very consistent with their work and great product knowledge also.
- [33:56]
B
Okay, so I want you to imagine for a minute it's five years from now, not even five years. Let's be a little more aggressive. Right? Three years from now and you are running one of these projects. You have gotten promoted. You're now the person selecting, you're staffing these projects. You're picking who's going to be on. And the people that you're picking are exactly as you've described, detail oriented. They can run through the what ifs, they have strong expertise, they're organized. What would make you pick those individuals who are leading with that and who by the way, can also work well with other people, but they're leading with this other stuff, majoring in that, minoring on the collaboration versus the person who's majoring in the collaboration, minoring on all the things that you just listed. What would be your rationale for picking one versus the other?
- [34:53]
A
I would go with the detail oriented people for my team because I know the work is going to get done.
- [35:01]
B
You got it. So you just figured out what is relevant. You just figured out what is relevant. The price of admission is giving the sense for getting on these projects and these assignments that they have full confidence that you're going to get the job done. Yeah, and what I wonder. I have no idea. Just Jada. I don't get the senses that you can't do the job. The sense that I get right now is, and, or I'm curious about is you haven't been leading with that as your brand. And so while the culture carrier piece is really great and helpful, it's not necessarily what's going to make the manager or leader, whoever's leading these projects, you know, at one o' Clock in the morning, go to sleep, because they know the job's getting done. Yeah. You know, it reminds me when I was in consulting, a newly minted consultant fresh out of business school a long time ago, one of the partners sat me down and said, you know, one day you're going to make a great partner because you're so good at building relationships with the clients and. And you're really good at seeing the big picture and thinking strategically and speaking on your feet. And I was. I got so. I mean, I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to get promoted early. Right. And then he said, but for now, what I need you to do is be able to crank through a spreadsheet and Pull together a PowerPoint deck. All right? Because that. That was the currency for where I was. And what he was basically saying is, those things are great. Don't lose them, but they're not what make you relevant right now for where you are in your career. In terms of what I need, in terms of leading this client engagement, if you can get those things done, it will open up the opportunities for you to be able to do all this other big stuff that you want to do. So don't lose it. But you got to be able to get past the initial entry points.
- [37:05]
A
So it feels like part of the brand that I need to be building is how do I ensure that people see me not just as the culture person, but as reliable, as consistent. And my visibility needs to be about how I was reliable, how I was consistent, how I pulled through and got the project done. This is feeling very right. As I'm saying it.
- [37:31]
B
You. With all the uncertainty in the market today, you may be asking yourself, now what? If you're not sure, you're not alone, Maybe it's time to talk to a financial advisor at Savant Wealth Management. Right now, you can schedule a free consultation. Just go to savantwealth.com leaders. You don't have to go it alone, and you shouldn't. Visit savantwealth.com leaders to learn more and schedule your free consultation. Savante is a registered investment advisor. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. In this conversation, Jada has now reached a point where she can start to differentiate between what she had assumed was important to leadership at her organization and what stakeholders might actually be looking for. Some of that will be informed by future conversations. But simply understanding the current mismatch is a step forward for Jada in her career. To get on a different track, Jada needs to focus her energy in the right places. First, by understanding the currency of the organization and then developing a plan to use gain more of that currency to advance her career. One way to effectively do that is to not just have conversations, but to really put yourself in the shoes of those you're looking to for opportunity and figure out what their needs are and what they're looking for. Let's dive back in as we start to refine what Jada should be demonstrating if she wants to truly address the feedback that she needs to be more visible. When you think about leadership, there's two aspects of it. There's the. I'm going to keep it very crass, but there's like the task orientation, the getting stuff done, getting results. Yeah. And there's the relational orientation, which is all about, you know, the people in collaboration and working well with others, et cetera. The sweet spot is being able to do both. Yeah. And there are times when you may need to lead more with one versus the other because you've been leading so much with one versus the other. It needs to be balanced out. One can't come at the sacrifice of the other. And again, I don't know the culture of your organization, but based on what you've shared, it sounds to me like what's valued at least as priority number one is the task orientation. And. And then the relational piece is the icing on the cake.
- [40:11]
A
I would agree with that. Yes.
- [40:13]
B
Okay. So you can't just be icing. Hmm. Wow.
- [40:18]
A
We went from visibility to icing.
- [40:22]
B
Yeah. I mean, and let me just say, some people just like icing and no cake. So part of your question also needs to be, you know, at some point, maybe I need to be in an environment where it is all about the icing. Right. And the cake is it's just a little bit of cake.
- [40:42]
A
You know, I've thought about that from time to time. If the work that I do is my strengths, the things that I enjoy doing the most, is my job currently now allowing me to lean into those things?
- [40:58]
B
Well, I mean, look, I think you work long enough, you're going to have situations where you can use your strengths a hundred percent of the time. And then it's like, ugh, I'm not using them enough. Right. The key is you don't want your weaknesses to overshadow your strengths. Right. That's what you hear a lot of people say, don't let your weaknesses overshadow your strengths. Yes. And you don't want to focus so much on your strengths that it's neglecting some Other aspects that are necessary for the work or in your case, for advancement? Yeah. I think the question is, are you able to use your strengths enough that it satisfies you, that it gives you that sense of fulfillment and reflects the strengths that you have? Does that need to be a hundred percent of the time?
- [41:48]
A
No. No, definitely not. And I do feel most days that the work that I'm doing allows me to lean into my strengths. And at the end of the day, I like my job. I don't get the Sunday scaries at all or anything like that. I feel adequately challenged. But, yeah, I think I need to grow in this area in order to get where I want to go.
- [42:14]
B
Yeah. And going back to your original question, it's making sure that your visibility reflects that you have these different facets to offer, not just this one aspect of who you are. Okay.
- [42:31]
A
I can do that.
- [42:32]
B
You can do that. All right, so tell me what your assignment is.
- [42:38]
A
A few things, not in any particular order, but number one, ensure that the meetings that I have with more senior people in the company are maybe a little more focused to my division. Number two, start asking better questions about the things that they're prioritizing. Number three, let them know that I want to work on projects and ensure that I communicate what value I can add to those projects and also ensure that the visibility that I am putting out there is focused on how I'm reliable, how I get things done, and look for ways where I can potentially bring some of that culture into the strategic work that we're doing. I don't think I need to abandon that part of me completely. But they can work together.
- [43:32]
B
Yeah, I don't think you need to abandon it at all. I think this is additive. I don't think it's subtractive. You're growing the pie in terms of the value that you bring, rather than it being a zero sum game. It's one or the other or it diminishes what you bring. Yeah. And so what do you think would get in the way of you being able to fulfill your assignment?
- [43:56]
A
Being scared. Being, you know, scared of being out of my comfort zone. I need to maybe spend some time thinking about the places where I have been consistent and reliable and got things done so that when I present what value I can bring to the projects, I have things that I can name specifically. And yeah, I think those two things most immediately. And then I guess also just making sure that I get to ask those better questions. I need to practice that so that I don't. A word That I kept saying in the beginning of this was that I was making a lot of assumptions. And I want to make sure that when I have these conversations with our senior leadership about their priorities, that they are very clear about what those priorities are. And I don't make assumptions about what they are just so that I can ensure that I am aligned with what they're thinking.
- [44:55]
B
Yeah. And so how do you think you could do that? Like, give me an example of a question you would ask where you are making assumptions versus one where you are either not or clarifying or trying to really understand?
- [45:08]
A
Well, I think about something you asked me earlier in our conversation. You kind of repeated back to me the scenario and asked me if that was accurate. I think doing that with them. So what I think I heard you say was, and let them tell me, no, that was wrong, or, yes, you heard that correctly, is one way to get things clarified.
- [45:29]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think you just said it. I think it's how you frame it. Right. And framing it in an open way where it's like, hey, this is as exactly what you said. Right. What I'm hearing. But just clarify for me. I'm kicking the tire. Is this what you're thinking with an openness that it might be different than what you had originally thought? One of the things, Jada, I also want to make sure that we talk about a little bit is we've been talking or discussing a lot about what you can do to provide yourself with visibility. In what ways are you leveraging others to give you visibility? Like, let's assume you do all the things that we just talked about, Right? Yeah. And so your visibility is targeted and focused in the right way in terms of the message that it sends. Are you the sole voice or what other voices do you have?
- [46:18]
A
I would say that there are definitely people in the company who come to me and are like, you haven't been promoted yet. And they do their, you know, their part to try to give me praise in certain places. Or I'll. I'll hear from, you know, my manager, like, oh, I was in a conversation the other day and I heard your name brought up about blah, blah, blah, which is lovely. But those people may not always be speaking about me or giving me visibility in the right channels. I don't want to come off as desperate, but I don't think there's anything wrong with saying to someone, hey, you know, I would love for you to tell so and so about this project when you have time, I think it's okay to ask.
- [47:04]
B
Yeah. I mean, that's not desperate. That's. That's sponsorship. Yeah, good point. Right? Yeah. That is exactly what sponsorship is, is you're asking or attaining somebody who's willing to be an advocate on your behalf. And what most people fail to recognize is what they want is somebody who advocates, you know, when it's time for promotions.
- [47:30]
A
Right.
- [47:31]
B
And I don't know, I always think, like, the advocacy needs to start way before that. Get them to advocate on your behalf on smaller things. Right. Like, oh, could you introduce me to this person? Could you see if I could get on that project? Like, could you call that manager? I'm going to speak to them, but could you also give them a call and see if they could get me on? Right. So those are the smaller milestones that then can build up to the bigger one of, hey, when it's promotion time, you know, could you speak on my behalf? Yeah. And so the first place is to identify who those folks are. And, you know, primarily it's who's within your circle already, who might already be mentoring you, perhaps, but now they are people who could sponsor you. And the difference is they're not just saying, oh, like I. I hear you didn't get that project. Oh, like, why not? They're saying, you didn't get that project. Like, let's figure out how to get you on that project next time. Yeah.
- [48:28]
A
I have sponsors in the company, but the problem is they are not within our division where I need to be seen. And I could do a better job of finding those people there.
- [48:41]
B
Right. Because sponsors, just for the sake of sponsors, it doesn't matter. It's just like your visibility, they also need to have weight and relevance for what you're doing. Yeah, if I am a musician, but my sponsor is somebody who's a sponsor in the athletic world. Nice, but not really relevant. Right? Yeah. So you want to make sure that you have individuals who are sponsors who have weight within the context or where it matters for you. Doesn't mean you get rid of the others. You need a diversified portfolio of sponsors, and you also need to make sure that you have some that are addressing the needs that you have now. And similarly, just like we talked about with your managers, they're going to want to know what value, what are they getting out of sponsoring you? Complaint. Okay. Yeah.
- [49:36]
A
At the beginning of this conversation, I thought we were really going to go into a place where visibility was inaccurate feedback. And I'm still not entirely sure that my previous managers meant visibility to the depth that we had a discussion about. It today. But I am happy to hear that there's some value that I can take from that when I didn't really believe it in the beginning.
- [50:04]
B
Yeah, there you go with your little assumptions that might get in the way of being able to then say, okay, well, what do I make out of this? Right. Yeah. And look, it may be that what we talked about is not it. What we do know is that it's different than the path you are on. And so it's worth testing out as a hypothesis and going out there and seeing if it helps. Right. In terms of the visibility and one of the things I would encourage you to do, those managers who told you you need to work on your visibility, you may want to go back to them and say, hey, I heard you. I heard your feedback. Here's what I'm planning on doing. Here's what I'm understanding, where I need to increase my visibility. Here are the areas where I'm already visible. Here's where I'm not, and where I'm not in this way. What do you make of that? Do you have anything else to add? So have them provide input on this path that you're now going to bear out because they might be able to get more explicit and more detailed around what they actually mean.
- [51:09]
A
I agree with that. And I don't think it's awful to maybe ask them for help in getting on those projects and helping to get that visibility so strategically that I need.
- [51:22]
B
Absolutely. Okay, so how do you feel now versus when we first got started?
- [51:29]
A
Oh, my gosh, Lighter. I feel like I have clarity. I feel like I have work to do. I feel like I have a plan. I feel motivated also.
- [51:43]
B
Good. Look, we all have work to do, but we don't all get motivated. So I'm glad to hear that you are motivated because that's what will move that plan into action. Okay. Yep. If anything, the worst case scenario is you find out, nope, that's not what visibility is. And then it's like, okay, what's the next path? But I think there's some untested territory that would be worth your while to explore. I agree.
- [52:09]
A
If it doesn't work, I'll just, you know, ask you, what do we do next?
- [52:13]
B
Exactly. Exactly. Blame it on the coach. Listen, Jada, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. No matter where you are in your career, even up to the C suite, visibility is important. And part of the key is understanding what visibility really means in your organization, to your leaders, even to your board, and adjusting your tactics to align with them. Definition There are a few questions you can ask yourself to get you started. First, what kind of leadership qualities seem most in demand at your organization? Next, how much of those values line up with your skills and experience so far? Finally, are you presenting yourself as having those skills and thereby showing how you add value? It's all about making sure you are visible and relevant for the context that you're in. That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time. I feel like I'm at this point that I am in a very good position to really continue to be intentional to build my long term plan in the company I'm at. I'm about to have career growth conversations where I am and I really want to pause and think of okay, what does that look like for me? If you love the conversations we have here on Coaching Real Leaders, you'll definitely want to check out my new book, Leadership Breakthrough. The Beliefs that Limit yout Potential. You can order it now, wherever you get your books. And if today's episode resonated with you, I'd be so grateful if you'd subscribe to the show, share it with a friend, or leave a five star review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. It's one of the best ways to help others find the show. I'd also love to stay connected. You can always find me@murielwilkins.com on LinkedIn Muriel Wilkins and on Instagram oachmurielwilkins. A big thank you to my producer Mary Dew, sound editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, my Chief of Staff Emily Soffa, and the entire team at hbr. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From the HBR Podcast Network, I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.
- [55:02]
A
KPMG makes the difference by creating value like developing strategic insights that help drive M and a success, or embedding AI.
- [55:11]
B
Solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage.
- [55:15]
A
KPMG make the Difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us insights.