How Do I Balance My Career Ambitions as Part of a Dual-Career Couple?

Summary

Coaching Real Leaders: Balancing Career Ambitions in a Dual-Career Couple

Episode Overview In this episode of Coaching Real Leaders, hosted by Muriel Wilkins of the Harvard Business Review Podcast Network, leadership coach Muriel engages in a transformative coaching session with a high-performing executive, Ali (a pseudonym for confidentiality). The discussion delves into the complexities Ali faces as a member of a dual-career couple striving to balance personal ambitions with professional growth amidst significant organizational changes.

Background Ali is a seasoned leader aiming to ascend to the C-suite, specifically aspiring to become a Chief Operating Officer (COO). She currently manages a large team and recognizes her potential for greater responsibility. However, recent developments in her personal and professional life have led to a sense of stagnation in her career progression.

Key Challenges

1. Dual-Career Household Dynamics ([00:51]–[01:31])

   • Ali's spouse received a career-defining opportunity that necessitated her stepping back to support his role, disrupting her career trajectory.
   • Muriel summarizes: "Ali landed in her current position as a result of trying to balance a dual career household..." ([00:51]).

2. Organizational Restructuring ([01:13]–[02:30])

   • The company Ali works for is undergoing a massive restructure, eliminating many leadership roles she was eyeing.
   • Ali expresses feeling stagnant due to reduced business complexity and limited leadership growth opportunities ([02:30]).

Defining Ambitions and Strengths

• Aspiration to COO ([02:50]–[03:59])

  • Ali aims to leverage her cross-functional expertise and ability to translate diverse functional languages into unified strategic execution.
  • Quote: "I'm very good at using different language to understand different functions and being able to translate that to a common goal..." ([03:18]).

• Validation of Skills ([04:20]–[05:45])

  • Despite internal constraints, Ali has received external job offers affirming her capabilities and potential for growth.
  • Muriel notes: "You are getting validation on the outside that your attributes, your skills, your experience are highly valued" ([05:28]).

Balancing Personal and Professional Priorities

• Decision-Making Dynamics ([05:47]–[07:22])

  • Ali and her husband historically balanced their careers by alternating periods of professional focus.
  • Current family dynamics, including children's developmental stages, necessitate greater stability, prompting Ali to prioritize supporting her husband's opportunity over her immediate career advancement ([06:01]–[07:22]).

• Emotional Impact ([07:26]–[08:53])

  • While excited for her husband, Ali feels disappointed and constrained in her career progression due to these recent changes.
  • She seeks coaching to navigate growth while staying in her current role ([07:26]–[08:53]).

Exploring Growth Within Constraints

1. Internal Opportunities ([19:19]–[27:07])

   • Ali considers shifting to different functional pipelines within her company to find growth opportunities despite restructuring.
   • She acknowledges the need to rebuild her internal network and seek new sponsors to navigate the flatter organizational structure ([19:19]).

2. External Opportunities ([12:31]–[15:38])

   • Ali explores the possibility of pursuing roles outside her current company but recognizes challenges such as geographic constraints and higher learning curves.
   • She reflects on finding a balance between expanding her professional scope and maintaining personal commitments ([12:31]–[15:38]).

Reframing Growth vs. Advancement

• Defining Growth ([23:17]–[24:20])

  • Muriel prompts Ali to redefine "growth," separating it from traditional notions of promotion or title changes.
  • Ali concludes that growth involves facing new challenges, solving more complex problems, and expanding her influence across functions ([23:17]–[24:20]).

• Strategic Reframing ([27:38]–[29:53])

  • By broadening her definition of growth, Ali realizes she can pursue meaningful development without solely relying on title advancements.
  • Muriel emphasizes that progress is a continuum, encouraging Ali to embrace incremental growth steps ([27:38]–[29:53]).

Actionable Strategies

1. Internal Pathways ([32:00]–[34:09])

   • Ali identifies "double V" (Value and Visibility) opportunities within her company to add value and increase her visibility without immediate promotion.
   • She plans to target cross-functional roles that align with her strengths and offer growth prospects ([33:24]–[34:09]).

2. External Considerations ([34:35]–[35:10])

   • Ali acknowledges that external roles would similarly require relationship-building and adaptation but remain a viable option if aligned with her personal and professional needs ([34:35]–[35:10]).

3. Immediate Steps ([37:46]–[39:07])

   • Conduct an assessment to identify value-creation opportunities within her reorganized company.
   • Seek increased visibility by engaging with leadership priorities and presenting her team's achievements to broader functions ([37:46]–[39:07]).

Emotional and Psychological Insights

• Overcoming Stagnation ([17:55]–[19:19])

  • Ali recognizes that taking proactive steps, even small ones, can extricate her from feelings of stagnation.
  • She learns to channel her ambition into manageable growth initiatives ([17:55]–[19:19]).

• Building Resilience ([29:53]–[36:30])

  • The coaching session empowers Ali to view her career path flexibly, allowing her to continue her professional growth without compromising her personal commitments.
  • She gains confidence in her ability to navigate both internal and external opportunities while maintaining work-life balance ([29:53]–[36:30]).

Conclusion and Takeaways

Muriel Wilkins wraps up the session by reiterating the importance of redefining growth beyond traditional promotion metrics. She underscores that career progress is not binary but a spectrum of opportunities that can be navigated creatively, even amidst personal and organizational challenges. For Ali, this means leveraging her strengths to find new growth avenues within her current role and staying open to diverse pathways that align with her long-term aspirations.

Notable Quotes

• Ali on Career Pivot:
  "I would say I'm really at a pivot point in my career... I want to continue to grow while staying put on multiple fronts." ([02:30])

• Defining Growth:
  "I will feel like I'm growing when I'm coming into work and I'm facing a new problem that I haven't faced before..." ([23:41])

• Reframing Progress:
  "Progress is not a binary. It's a continuum between 0 and 100." ([31:25])

Final Thoughts This episode offers invaluable insights for leaders navigating dual-career dynamics and organizational upheavals. By embracing a broader definition of growth and strategically leveraging both internal and external opportunities, professionals like Ali can continue their career advancement without compromising their personal lives.

Transcript

[Muriel Wilkins]

Foreign I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Ali to protect her confidentiality. She's far along in her career and has a good sense of her own leadership style and strengths as well as.

[Unknown Coach]

Her long term goals.

[Ali]

I would say I'm really at a pivot point in my career. I've been really at a point of wanting to accelerate my scope of responsibility. I do lead a large team currently. Still, I know that there's more that I'm capable of and more that I want to do and continue to grow to really C level executive space.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Allie landed in her current position as a result of trying to balance a dual career household and due to organizational circumstances beyond her control, her spouse was recently offered a role that they didn't think he should turn down, but it also meant deprioritizing Ali's trajectory.

[Ali]

It's truly an amazing opportunity and probably a job that would only come around once or twice within his career. We've been able to balance our family careers pretty well and this was, I would say, unplanned. So I think we were discussing that it was my turn to go after another scope of responsibility and unfortunately it really feels like a pause on my career progression. The added complexity is my current company is going through a massive restructure, so the majority of leadership roles that I was identifying as my next step no longer exists in my company. I've been placed in a role that's pretty, pretty similar to roles that I've done in the past. So the sense of challenge, business complexity, and just general leadership growth seems relatively low at the moment. So what I'm looking for coaching on is how do I continue to feel like I'm growing while I'm staying put on multiple fronts.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Allie feels like she's stagnant, but she wants to figure out ways to continue to grow before we focus on where she is on her path now. I wanted to get a sense of her ultimate goals. Let's begin there.

[Unknown Coach]

You said that your aspirations are ultimately to be at the C suite level. Is that right?

[Ali]

That's correct. I aim to be a chief operating officer. I am a generalist, but very passionate about the interconnection cross functionally and how to support execution of strategy.

[Unknown Coach]

And what have you done throughout your career to kind of lead you to that decision? What drove your aspiration to get there?

[Ali]

I've had a very diverse career, passed multiple industries, so I've been able to have the experience and exposure that showcases the strengths that I have. And a couple of the strengths that I know I exhibit professionally is cross functional connection. So. So I'm very good at using different language to understand different functions and being able to translate that to a common goal and then motivate people to go after that common goal. And that's something that I fundamentally feel like that ultimate COO role has as its core. And it's something that I continue to do in all of the roles that I've had probably over the last decade in particular.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay. All right. And do you feel like your career progression without the possible constraints of the company restructuring, as well as what's happening with your partner, which we'll get to, without those two things, do you think your career would have continued to progress in that direction?

[Ali]

Definitely.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay.

[Ali]

And I know that that is the case because I was actively applying for other roles outside of this company. Just knowing the reduction in force was looming and was validated. I was able to get job offers that were right in line with where I was wanting to go, and also validated that I do have the strengths and the potential to continue to grow in scope.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay, great. So let me just make sure I get the right lay of the land. So so far, both you and your husband have careers that you're both interested in pursuing, right?

[Ali]

Yes.

[Unknown Coach]

You've been able to toggle where one pushes while the other sort of creates the stability for a while. That's worked. The discussion between the two of you is recently like, okay, now, Allie, it's your turn to push. Right?

[Ali]

Exactly.

[Unknown Coach]

And then he now is in a position where he's taking on something new, chance of a lifetime. And so he has to push, Right?

[Ali]

Correct.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay, so there's that there's a restructuring going on, meaning not as many opportunities as before. So that sort of created a block for you.

[Ali]

Yes.

[Unknown Coach]

For a certain amount of time, but you are getting validation on the outside that your attributes, your skills, your experience are highly valued. And if the opportunity became available, whether it's internal at your company or otherwise, you could certainly fill that spot.

[Ali]

I Think so, yes.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay, great. So I'm curious how the decision was made between you and your husband around him having now to push and you not pushing. What is it that's causing that both of you can't push at the same time?

[Ali]

It's a really good question, because up until this point, I think we have been able to balance it really effectively, where we've even taken opportunities to. Where we've had to live in different continents for a period of time, and that was intentional, and we knew how to balance that. What's different now is, I think, the family dynamics. So I do have children. They're at different stages in their development. And because my husband's role will require a substantial percentage of his time and really have a broader impact onto our family than maybe some of the other roles that he's had in the past or that I have had, it requires some additional stability that my job offers. So both financially as well as the time that my role requires, and because I've already been working at this company for a while, I feel like I can leverage relationships pretty effectively to balance and provide the flexibility that my family may need during this time. So that's what's different, is that in the past, I think we have both been able to balance and accelerate our careers, but this opportunity for my partner just requires a substantial amount of his time, and so I need to take up a bit more on the personal side.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay. And if I may, like, how are you feeling about that decision?

[Ali]

I'm obviously excited for him. I think this is such a perfect opportunity for him. I think for me, it feels disappointing and that I'm stagnating in my career. I was actively eager to continue to grow in both scope and responsibility of my role, as well as the team size that I manage. And I felt like I was on a very good trajectory to get that extended scope. And now I feel pretty stagnant. And I think that that's. That's why I'm having this conversation. I want to continue to grow. If I know that that constraint of staying in the city that I'm in, staying in the company that I'm in, is a real constraint for a couple of years, I want to figure out how I can continue to grow.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay. And so if the company. If your company had not been going through this restructuring, right, where the opportunities are now more limited, what decision would you have made? Would it have made any difference in terms of your decision?

[Ali]

I don't think so. It wouldn't have changed my interest in applying and seeing if I could get validation for my strengths and skills. And it also wouldn't have changed the decision to prioritize my family and my partner's opportunity. I think that those both would have still occurred.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay, so you would have prioritized your partner's opportunity. You'd have gotten validation that you could move up. And if there had been opportunities within your company to move up, what would you have decided?

[Ali]

I probably would have gone after it. And the reason being is because I do feel like I'm at a really pivotal point in my career to really advocate for that next level and to take on more than what I know I could do, but really stretch myself to try to get a leadership opportunity that is making me uncomfortable so that I can continue to grow and that I can continue to showcase. I can manage more complex scope of responsibility.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay, so if I'm hearing you correctly, if the opportunity availed itself at your current company to stretch and something that was aligned with what your aspirations are kind of get you closer to that C suite level, you would have taken it in spite of your husband's new opportunity?

[Ali]

I. I think so. I think the nuance around taking that, I think it feels like it could have been a yes, and it could have been both of us where he still could have taken his opportunity. And I, because I'm so familiar with the company that I'm currently working in, would have felt confident that I could take on that added responsibility for myself and still be able to manage both both the personal commitments and stepping up there and the professional growth and commitments as opposed to starting at a totally new company where I don't feel as I have that foundation of relationships and understanding how the company operates.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay, so it's the familiarity that would have given you an added bonus?

[Ali]

I think so.

[Unknown Coach]

That would have enabled you to really not have to choose between your husband's career and yours.

[Ali]

I think so.

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[Muriel Wilkins]

The challenge that Allie is bringing to the table is really one about prioritization, trade offs, and optimizing her situation. She's in a bit of a tough place because she's facing both family pressures and organizational changes that have kept her in a role that doesn't feel like much of a stretch. She's also had the opportunity to look externally for roles and knows that there's potential there. So what's helpful to realize even this early in the conversation is that Allie is coming from a place of strength because she's decided her priorities and made some choices. But just because you've accepted some trade offs at a particular stage in your career doesn't mean you have to sacrifice everything or that you'll remain stagnant forever. You might have noticed I've already started with some what if kinds of questions and scenarios to get her thinking differently about her situation. I'll stay with this sort of inquiry with Alli to open up new paths she might be able to take.

[Unknown Coach]

What would make an external opportunity so outside of your current company, what would make an external opportunity feel like a. Yes.

[Ali]

And a larger scope of work, more aligned to a generalist? My personal interests, value aligned company, a place that I could still manage, the personal commitments that I have. I guess those would be some of the dimensions.

[Unknown Coach]

And how would you know if you could get all of those things?

[Ali]

That's a really good question. I don't know.

[Unknown Coach]

I mean, I don't know either.

[Muriel Wilkins]

But.

[Unknown Coach]

I'm just curious, like, is it something that you've even considered?

[Ali]

I think it is in that. Yeah. This is a really good question because some of the external opportunities that I've gone after in reality don't support being able to balance both my partner's career and my own.

[Unknown Coach]

Because.

[Ali]

Because it's either a new location, a geographic location, It's a role that I think would require more of my time and investment, especially if it's a new company. So I think that the opportunities that I've gone after inherently do require a trade off between personal and professional.

[Unknown Coach]

So, you know, all I'm trying to see is sort of like what your options are. And it sounds like, you know, option number one is if there was an opportunity internally that would stretch you and kind of lead you in the direction of that C suite level that you're aspiring to, that would be a viable option for you. Right. That would be kind of ideal. Option number two is finding something similar but outside of your company, since your company isn't offering that right now. Right. So like not waiting till those open up again and trying to find those now. But the uncertainty is, would you have the level of familiarity that would make that onboarding a little bit more efficient and save you some time?

[Ali]

Yes. Yes.

[Unknown Coach]

And what you're saying is with option number two, the ones that you've looked at don't seem like it would give you the flexibility and it seems like they would take a lot more time to onboard.

[Ali]

Yes. And the reason is it's a different geographic scope than where I currently live or work and it's different industry.

[Unknown Coach]

Yeah.

[Ali]

So it is, I think higher learning curve. But that's also the appeal is wanting to be able to be in an experience where I'm testing all of the leadership competencies and strengths I think I have within a different environment, both industry and location.

[Unknown Coach]

When you think about coming up the learning curve, I get the geographic location. So clearly like that's a non negotiable, you can't move. Okay.

[Ali]

Right.

[Unknown Coach]

So if we were to then restrict it to external opportunities within agreeable geographic location, what I'm hearing you say is the block would be what would be required to come up the learning curve. And at the same time, that's what's interesting to you. That's kind of is what's getting you jazzed. So I kind of go back to the term that you introduced in this is how could you make that a yes and right. How could you make. And again, I'm not saying that's the direction you're going to go in. I just want to make sure we play it out before you rule it out. How could you make an opportunity where there is a learning curve, more of a learning curve than there would be internally. But it's interesting to you, how could you make it work for you? What conditions would need to be in place to make it work for you?

[Ali]

I think that conditions obviously work within the constraints on the personal side. So same location and maybe taking an opportunity that 50% of the responsibility is similar to have that confidence that I know I could come in from day one and feel like I'm adding value and still have 50% of the opportunity, stretch me in new ways. That feels manageable. And it feels like I would maybe not compromise on what I'm looking for, but narrow the scope a bit so that it's not solving all 10 things that I want to experience next in my professional journey, but maybe five.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay, so that is an option. Right. It might not be visible. I mean you might not have seen those opportunities yet, but at the very least it gives you a sense if you can, you know, on your own sort of narrow down what of the list of 10, what would be the five that would jazz me up. You can then start looking for opportunities that have those Rather than the ones that have, you know, all 10.

[Ali]

Yes.

[Unknown Coach]

And as you said, it might not be bringing you a hundred percent closer to your goal, but it's bringing you 50% closer, which is better than zero percent.

[Ali]

It's a lot better than zero percent.

[Unknown Coach]

Zero percent is okay too. But what you said is you want to continue to grow, so.

[Ali]

Exactly.

[Unknown Coach]

Yeah, we're going for 50%.

[Ali]

Yes. And I think that that's something that I have realized through this process is just how much I want this. I want to continue to grow. I have ambition to truly get to that ultimate career level role, responsibility. And I haven't felt that way in a while. And so to have those feelings now and then, to feel like I'm stagnant is where I'm struggling. And I think that this is helping because, yeah, maybe I do need to think of, like, how do I get part of it and not all of it.

[Unknown Coach]

Yeah, I mean, coming out of stagnation only takes one step. You know, the minute you move a little bit, you're out of stagnation. So what we're looking at is, okay, it might not be, you know, 0 to 100, but between 0 and 100, there's 99 other options. And so figuring out what those are both externally and, you know, we'll also pivot to internally. So internally, what would it look like for you to. Under the circumstances of understanding, you know, there is restructuring happening and you have these priorities at home, what would it look like for you not to stagnate while staying at your company?

[Ali]

I think to feel like I'm growing in my current company, I will need to change functional pipelines. I'll need to change the part of the company and the business that I'm supporting. That's not improbable. We have very diverse career pathing. It's not like a manufacturing company where it tends to be quite rigid. But it would take intention on my part to identify those opportunities in this new structure that I would have the competencies to come in and be able to deliver value. And it would require probably networking and support that I would need to maybe even rebuild.

[Unknown Coach]

And so how does that sound to you?

[Ali]

It sounds appealing in that it is a challenge. Going to the premise of not trying to get all 10 things or a hundred percent of what I'm looking for, but to get 50% or more. I think that this could actually be the path that I should probably go deeper in and pursue. I think the challenge that I'm facing with the restructure of my company is I've lost the majority of my sponsors, they've retired or been exited as well as my peers. So people I would have typically approached to talk through these circumstances and help me identify where I could go internally to continue to grow. Those advocates and champions and personal board of directors, so to speak, are kind of fragile.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay, and so where do you feel that leaves you?

[Ali]

I think it leaves me a little vulnerable in that we, we're a very network based organization. And so if I don't have the advocates and sponsors at the top being able to articulate the strengths that I have, it's a little bit harder to know how I would go after another functional opportunity. I feel like I can still operate within the space that I'm in, but I'm acknowledging that I don't think I'm going to get the growth that I want by staying in the function that I'm in and so going and looking at other opportunities across the company. I'll have to figure out how I reactivate a network or approach it in a different way now that we're in this new structure. And I don't necessarily have those champions around.

[Unknown Coach]

So what's interesting to me, Allie, is when we were sort of exploring the possibility of you going external and we talked about what would be the investment there, you said, hey, you know, it'd be learning a new industry, learning a new company. And a big thing for you was building the relationships, right. That you wouldn't have the foundation of those relationships to build on. It sounds to me like you're kind of in a similar position, not exactly the same, but there's some relationship building that needs to go on internally. And so the level of investment again might on the margins be slightly different, but it sounds like it requires a lift either way whether you're internal or external, because your company has changed.

[Ali]

I think you're exactly right. And I hadn't really thought of it that way, but the investment in relationships will be required because this is a completely different structure than my current company has had. And I think that framing is actually making external opportunities seem almost less intimidating and that maybe it really is more on par on evaluating where I can grow.

[Unknown Coach]

So I think part of the framing is, you know, we're sort of comparing internal or external. Okay, yeah. So let's hold that. I want to offer kind of another perspective which is around, you know, the word growth that you've used. And so I'm just curious, like, how are you defining growth? What is growth for you right now? And growth for the sake of what?

[Ali]

I will feel like I'm growing when I'm coming into work and I'm facing a new problem that I haven't faced before, that I'm interacting with teammates that are thinking about things in a different way or have a different perspective that's beyond the current scope. That's what I feel like it means to grow. And I want to solve bigger problems. I want to solve more complex problems. And that feels like that occurs when you're at certain levels within the organization.

[Unknown Coach]

So you want to be challenged with different types of problems than your being faced with now?

[Ali]

Correct.

[Unknown Coach]

You want to engage in a different way with peers. And I want to come back to that just so I can kind of crystallize what that exactly means. And you want to be able to solve more complex problems.

[Ali]

Yes.

[Unknown Coach]

So talk to me a little bit about interacting with peers in a different way. Just. Just. I may have missed it. What? In what different way?

[Ali]

So I find that as I've grown in my professional career and I do feel like I'm solving bigger problems, it's a different skill set to influence stakeholders and to interact with peers to try to understand their priorities and be able to articulate mine and then make sure that we're kind of building a coalition to move our organization and our teams forward together.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So.

[Ali]

So I think that that is kind of what I mean by continuing to grow and to have exposure to functions that are beyond the one that I'm currently in and influence in a broader way.

[Unknown Coach]

So you would know that's happening if you have exposure to other functions and you have influence or what you're working on has influence in a broader way in the organization?

[Ali]

Yes.

[Unknown Coach]

And the sense that that's only possible at higher levels. Where is that coming from?

[Ali]

I don't think it's possible only at higher levels. I think that it's been more interesting in my career, the larger teams that I've managed and the larger scope of responsibility that I've been able to manage. That's where influencing within the organization has become more important and the conversation's more diverse of understanding more of the macro considerations that go into business decisions.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay. And do you have a sense, like, internally, whether you were already positioned to be in those types of roles?

[Ali]

That's a good question. I have asked for explicit feedback and haven't really given gotten a lot around, what is my career progression? And how does the current leadership team view my skill set and Runway? But yes, I believe that I am being considered for advancement. I have had pretty good visibility across the company. I've been actively engaged in our employee networks and am frequently referenced as a very strong female leader within our organization. So I've gotten validation that I do have some of the skills and competencies that would make me a candidate for higher level roles.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay. So I'm hearing two things, right? Like I'm hearing on the one hand growth, right. That you want to make sure you're growing, which you articulated, no problems, different level of engagement, broader influence. And I'm hearing advancement, which advancement basically means position title promotion. Okay. Is there a world where there's growth without advancement for you? At the moment?

[Ali]

I think there is, but I hadn't really thought that way. I think I had in my mind advancement meant title, scope of responsibility. But as we talk through this, being able to look at other functions that I will continue to be able to grow within that maybe are at my same level or comparable, I think there's something for me to explore deeper there on if that would meet the needs that I have to continue to grow because it would certainly be different problems because I, you know, I haven't worked in some of some of these spaces before. Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Coach]

I mean, I think, Right. Like if we go back to your original question, which is how do I continue to grow while staying put? Which is just. I love the way that you phrased it because there's so much to unthread there. Right? Like what is the definition of growth? What does it mean to stay put? Right. One possibility is that you can grow in the ways that you just defined what growth is while staying put at your level. Because there is no advancement happening right now because of macro circumstances that are a bit out of your control. I'm not advocating for that. Certainly I want people to be able to advance. I'm just grounding that in your original question, right?

[Ali]

Yeah. And I really like this reframing because just given the restructuring of the company, those opportunities for title advancement are fewer. But the opportunities for expanded scope of responsibility is arguably greater because we have limited our organization and made it flatter. And so the responsibility is a wider scope. And with my ultimate ambition, if I truly want to be a coo, understanding different parts of how our business operates could only help me in that pathway. Either inside my company or outside.

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[Muriel Wilkins]

I wanted to go back to Ali's original question because I think it's a meaty one. First we unpacked a bit more about why she felt stuck or that she had to stay put and what decisions and circumstances led her to that point. And then we could pivot to the first part of her question about growth, which required some definition. I asked her to explain what growth even means to her and if her definition of growth could change. Because at many points in anyone's career there's a difference between growth and promotion. And when you see the difference, you're able to better articulate what makes the most sense for your career path. Now that we've opened up the aperture, it's time for Ally to start putting what she's learned into practice in her role as it stands today.

[Unknown Coach]

Let me add another layer to this right and again, I want to sort of think about what the internal options are. What would it look like for you to grow at your level? Just as you said, there's increasing actually opportunities for expanded scope without necessarily moving into another level. So what would it look like for you to take advantage of those opportunities so you can grow and at the same time position yourself for advancement when those opportunities become available?

[Ali]

I think I need to do some homework on where I saw opportunities to make cross functional step change within my company and target those areas of opportunity. I can think through a few spaces where that could be. I've found that it's really the cross functional. The gray space in between functional handoffs is where value is created at my current company in particular. And so in the past I've tried to go after those areas and really lead cross functional teams to come up with new processes or to build new capabilities that help make that handoff more seamless. And I think in this post restructure space there's a lot of that because we're reinventing how we're doing our business in some spaces as well as just building new operating model across teams. So I think that there could be opportunities for me to leverage how I've approached it in the past, but be very targeted of spaces within the company that I could come in and feel like I could ask the right questions to identify the value and it would be a role that would be visible Enough within the enterprise that would give me a new set of stakeholders, a new set of sponsors, potentially, if I performed well.

[Unknown Coach]

I'm going to name it. Right. Like, I think what you're looking for is. I'm going to name it the double V. Right. You're looking for spaces where you can add value even without necessarily having had the promotion. Okay. And second V, where you also get visibility to other areas of the company and that both those things will provide you with growth currently based on your definition, while at the same time positioning you so that when you know, the macro trends change and opportunities for advancement open up, you'll be ready.

[Ali]

I really like that that resonates. And I think you've captured exactly what I feel like I need to continue to feel like I'm growing and to also continue to be able to showcase that within the company that I work in.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay, so it sounds like that's a possible strategy for if you pursued, you know, staying internally, right?

[Ali]

Yes.

[Unknown Coach]

And then the other option that we talked about is, well, you know, maybe there's a world where there's external opportunities where, same thing, you've got to kind of rebuild relationships, but you would be able to sort of jump in to those problems and the nature of the business in a way that you could add value immediately. So it's still the same two variables, just in a different place, but within the conditions of, you know, the geographical conditions, so that you wouldn't have to move.

[Ali]

Yes, I do think it would be similar, if not the exact same.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay. So, you know, Allie, I mean, what's interesting to me is, like, I'm not. And like, check me on this, okay, Because I may be completely off. I'm not feeling like you have to put your career on the back burner right now. What I'm hearing is you can't move geographically.

[Ali]

I think you're right. I think especially with the reframing of not looking at growth and advancement within a level progression, but more within, how am I adding increasing value and making that value more visible across the enterprise and myself building my own kind of brand, so to speak. I think that helps because it really did feel like I was not giving up everything but unable to pursue what I was wanting to pursue in my next step. And I think this conversation is helping me realize that I don't need an SVP's title to do that right now. I can still do that at the level that I'm at or maybe in another company.

[Unknown Coach]

Yeah, I can. I can do that for a certain period of Time. Right. And I think what you're hitting on is we often have myself included, by the way. Right. Like visions of what we want. And they are a vision. Right. We see exactly what it should look like, and then the circumstances don't align for it to look that way. And so we think we can't have what we want. But that's not true. You can still have what you want. It just might need to look differently. And that's where kind of opening the aperture up. Right. And saying, okay, like, I still want to reach the C suite. I still want to be challenged. I still want to be excited about my work. I still want to be able to support my partner. I still want to be able to manage on the home front. But it can't quite look like the plan that I originally had, which was that, you know, I go full throttle and my husband, you know, sort of takes a backseat for a little bit. That's just not what the world gave you right now. And so then you have to go to, okay, I still want all those things, but how do I paint the painting a bit differently to make it still a beautiful painting?

[Ali]

Yes. That is spot on. Yeah.

[Unknown Coach]

And so I think there's a couple of options here, and there's probably a bunch of others in between. So let me ask you this. What are some immediate steps that you think you can take, like in the next couple of weeks that will help you feel like you're not in stagnation mode?

[Ali]

I think doing the assessment around where I see value creation opportunity within my company in this new formation is something that I can absolutely go after and assess. And I think that there are spaces that I could start showcasing even in the role that I'm in. So definitely doing that. I think seeking opportunities to get visibility of what leaders priorities are, as well as increase my own visibility by having one on ones or ask for opportunities to present to other functions around, maybe even what my current team does, just so that I can start understanding where are those spaces that I could feel like I could grow and start getting the visibility to those and then increase my own visibility? Those are actions that I could take.

[Unknown Coach]

Okay, great. So go get them.

[Ali]

I love it.

[Unknown Coach]

I mean, you know, that's the only way you move. Right. The opposite of stagnation is movement is you've got to go after those things.

[Ali]

Yeah, that's it. I just have to channel the energy to go after it.

[Unknown Coach]

That's right. That's right. Okay, so how are you feeling now versus at the beginning of our conversation when you asked this question.

[Ali]

I feel a lot better because I have a broader definition of growth and I think that I was really restricting myself and just having it be a title or having my aspiration be an all or none approach. And I think that this is making me feel a lot more comfortable about the decisions that I've made and also hopeful that I'll be able to continue to grow over the next couple of years.

[Unknown Coach]

Well, you won't know unless you try, right? Like try some of those other options out and know that we've only even uncovered a few. So if they're not getting anywhere, then you sort of come back to the same questions that we just went through for yourself and say, okay, what other options are at my disposal? Internal, external, kind of go through the same exercise. All right.

[Ali]

Yep.

[Unknown Coach]

Yep. Thank you.

[Ali]

Thank you. This is fun.

[Muriel Wilkins]

One thing I've learned as an executive coach over the years is that there are many different ways to feel stuck and many different ways to grow. For Allie, the challenge wasn't around making a decision around priorities. In many ways, she'd already done that. Instead, the problem to tackle was how she could continue to be proactive and keep her longer term goals in mind. A point I want to reiterate because it applies not just here, but in so many situations, is that progress is not a binary. It's a continuum between 0 and 100. There are 99 options and just one step is movement away from staying put or being stuck. This is something that's important to remember with all sorts of professional challenges because much about leadership isn't all or nothing. By changing your perspective about what forward movement looks like, you can help continue building momentum in your career, no matter what the momentary setbacks might be. That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders.

[Unknown Coach]

Next time, I was able to build relationships with my colleagues, but I think it's just breaking the barrier with my boss was a little bit more difficult than I expected. It surprised me that I didn't have more courage to say some of the things that should have been said.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I have a really important ask of you if you love the coaching conversations on Coaches Coaching Real Leaders. It would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to. Subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them. If you want more of Coaching Real Leaders, join my community where I host live discussions to unpack every episode and answer your questions. Become a member at Coaching Real Leaders Community. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn at. Muriel Wilkins. Thanks to my producer Mary Du, sound editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sofa, and the entire team at hbr. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you're dealing with a leadership challenge, I'd love to hear from from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealeaders. Com from HBR Podcast Network. I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.