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How Do I Co-Lead with a Challenging Partner? - Coaching Real Leaders | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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How Do I Co-Lead with a Challenging Partner?

Coaching Real Leaders

Mon Jun 02 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How Do I Co-Lead with a Challenging Partner?"

Podcast Information:

Title: Coaching Real Leaders
Host: Muriel Wilkins, Harvard Business Review
Episode: How Do I Co-Lead with a Challenging Partner?
Release Date: June 2, 2025

Introduction to Stefan's Challenge

[00:48] Muriel Wilkins:
Muriel introduces Stefan, a pseudonymous guest, who occupies a leadership role that he finds both engaging and challenging. Stefan reaches out for coaching to navigate the complexities of co-leading a project with an external partner.

Defining Dual Leadership

[02:35] Stefan:
Stefan describes his situation as a "dual leadership challenge," where he and an external agency's product lead share leadership responsibilities. This arrangement has led to "misunderstandings" and a "conflict of authority," questioning "who actually rides the car, right? Who wears pants in this relationship?" (02:35)

[04:10] Muriel Wilkins:
Muriel acknowledges Stefan's framing of the issue under dual leadership, identifying the primary pain points:

Conflict of Authority: Unclear leadership hierarchy.
Design Tensions: Constant criticism without substantive feedback.
Personality Clashes: Different leadership styles—Stefan as an influencer versus his partner's direct approach.

Identifying Pain Points

[04:02] Stefan:
He elaborates on the negative feedback from stakeholders and the frustration of "people never like stuff," leading to challenges in decision making.

[07:03] Muriel Wilkins:
Muriel probes further, rating the severity of these issues as a collective 5. Something like 5.5 out of 10. (06:57)

[08:01] Stefan:
He clarifies that the main issue lies in decision-making responsibilities and accountability, emphasizing that "78 or 85% of decisions are made by him." (11:53)

Analyzing Misalignment

[21:33] Stefan:
Stefan identifies that the misalignment primarily resides in the "how"—the process by which decisions are made—accounting for 70-30% of the issue. (21:33)

[22:37] Muriel Wilkins:
She delves into whether there is a true alignment on the "what"—the project goals—and highlights Stefan’s perception of differing organizational goals: Stefan's team aims to phase out the external partner due to cost concerns, while the partner's organization aims to maintain the relationship.

[23:48] Stefan:
Stefan confirms the misalignment in long-term goals, stating, "their goal is to be as long as possible with us because we support them," versus the need to eliminate them due to costs. (23:48)

Exploring Solutions

[26:28] Stefan:
Muriel identifies trust as the foundation for effective dual leadership. Stefan reflects on trust, noting insights from the book Collaborating with the Enemy, and acknowledges the need to focus on common goals rather than conflict.

[34:23] Stefan:
He admits that his initial approach was reactive—"I did nothing." He recognizes the absence of a structured strategy to define roles and decision rights. (34:23)

[36:18] Muriel Wilkins:
She suggests practical tools like RACI charts (Responsible, Accountable, Consulted, Informed) to clarify decision-making processes and responsibilities. (36:18)

[41:48] Stefan:
Stefan plans to take ownership by introducing new ideas and projects to shift the dynamic from reactive to proactive. He aims to "invent whatever a new idea, like new project, new tool," to demonstrate his contribution beyond mere opinions. (41:48)

[44:22] Stefan:
Muriel encourages Stefan to reconsider his reluctance to initiate a reset conversation with his partner, posing the question: "What would make that comfortable for you?" (44:22)

Insights and Action Steps

[51:08] Stefan:
Through the coaching session, Stefan experiences an "aha moment" by recognizing that collaboration and conflict resolution can coexist, transforming his approach to leadership dynamics. (51:08)

[53:49] Muriel Wilkins:
Muriel emphasizes turning Stefan's newfound awareness into action, advising him to schedule and practice the reset conversation. She highlights that action, combined with awareness, is "unstoppable." (53:49)

Conclusion

[55:04] Stefan:
Stefan reflects on his transformation, feeling both "dumb" for not recognizing these strategies earlier and "grateful" for the clarity and actionable steps provided. He commits to scheduling the reset meeting and practicing the conversation as tangible next steps. (55:04)

[56:58] Muriel Wilkins:
Muriel concludes by reinforcing Stefan’s takeaways:

Understanding Misalignment: Recognizing where and why the breakdown occurs.
Taking Responsibility: Owning his part in the dynamic.
Action Plans: Implementing structured conversations and collaborative tools.

She underscores the importance of personal accountability in leadership, stating, "You can't control the other person, but you can always control how you show up."

[56:58] Final Remarks:
Muriel wraps up the episode by highlighting Stefan's journey from confusion to clarity, emphasizing the significance of owning one's role in co-leading dynamics.

Notable Quotes:

Stefan at [02:35]:
"Who actually rides the car, right? Who wears pants in this relationship?"
Muriel at [53:49]:
"Awareness plus action is unstoppable."
Stefan at [55:04]:
"I feel like a complete dumb idiot. It was actually, these are simple things, but I don't know, not accessible, hidden, whatever."

Key Takeaways:

Clear Role Definition: Establishing who is responsible and accountable using structured tools like RACI charts.
Building Trust: Focusing on common goals to create a foundation for collaboration.
Proactive Communication: Initiating reset conversations to align leadership dynamics.
Personal Accountability: Recognizing and owning one's contributions to leadership challenges.

Stefan's coaching session serves as a powerful example of how leaders can navigate and resolve the complexities of dual leadership through self-awareness, structured strategies, and proactive communication.

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Transcript

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Muriel Wilkins (0:48)

I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Stefan tomorrow. Protect his confidentiality. He's in a leadership role that he finds both interesting and challenging.

Stefan (1:31)

It's dealing with people ultimately, it's resolving problems. It's making impact on completely different area, not solving clients internal or external problems with whatever kind of design, but with dealing with people, with emotions, with conflicts and trying to resolve it, trying to find common grounds, contributing in a really different way. This is my, I would say first serious. Not that previous leading roles were not serious, but this one is like most serious. Like more serious. Let's say the team is bigger and the challenges are bigger.

Muriel Wilkins (2:15)

Stefan reached out because while he likes many aspects of his position, he's having trouble co leading a project with a partner who happens to be external to the company. We'll start by getting a bit more of the lay of the land to better understand the issue he's facing.

Stefan (2:35)

I am experiencing something that I would call like dual leadership challenge. I am internal manager at my company and this company has an external agency that is asked to complete a project. This agency has a very skilled and really great product lead who is basically in the same role as I am. So we have the situation of literally dual leadership and in some moments this leads to misunderstandings. It's a little bit, you know, conflict of authority, like who actually, you know, rides the car, right? Who wears pants in this relationship? It's been really difficult to me to navigate and additional flavor to it is what you usually meet from stakeholders is just constant criticism because, yeah, people never like stuff. I mean, they say, yeah, it's nice, but if we make this button green. Yeah. Or if we make this button red, what do you think? And part of you has to be made of stone that you are just, you know, you deal with this negative feedback.

Muriel Wilkins (18:36)

All right, let's pause for a moment. We've heard Stefan lay out his dual leadership dilemma. Sharing the reins of a design project with an outside partner, never quite knowing who's steering. He's grappling with unclear decision rights, feeling the pull of two different personalities, and wondering where he fits in when the authority feels uneven. What I'm noticing is how these elements weave foggy accountability, imbalanced power, and overlapping styles. It's like watching two voices trying to harmonize without a written score. Things get noisy and the melody falters. And Stefan is also realizing that he's gotten bogged down by the frustration of working in this way and as a result, hasn't done much to try to resolve it, and that it was now time to try Something different. But before he can do that, we have to further identify where the breakdown is happening between him and his co lead. Otherwise his actions may be misdirected. That's where we pick things up. Back up. Taking a closer look at where Stefan and his partner are out of sync. There's a couple of things here, right? Like, I think whenever there's a breakdown in a partnership or in a team, or like a relational work, relational piece, there are many variables to look at. But two of the ones that I think are helpful to look at to start with, to try to understand where the breakdown is. Is, is it a content breakdown, meaning there's misalignment around what we're dealing with. Right. And. Or is it a process breakdown? And the process breakdown is the how? Like, yes, we both understand that this is the deliverable that needs to be met. That's the content. There's other parts of content that we can talk about. And then the process breakdown is. But there is dissonance, misalignment on the how, how we're going to get there. And when it comes to decision making, decision making does consist of both of those variables. What are we making a decision on? That's the content. And how are we getting to that decision? That's the process. And so whenever, whenever, by the way, I face this all the time. It doesn't even have work. Like, think about every time there's, like, you know, I can think about my own life. I think I live this every single day with some of the people in my household. Right. Like, but I thought this was gonna happen. No, that was gonna happen. You can peel back the onion and say, well, where was the misalignment? And so when you look at this particular co leadership structure, or co leadership, whatever we want to call it, where is the misalignment?

Muriel Wilkins (56:58)

Stefan came into his coaching session unsure about the dual leadership setup he was in. But he left with clarity on steps he can take to turn it around and crucially, a commitment to own his part of the dynamic. He committed to set up that reset meeting and practices approach, turning awareness into action. Stefan's decision to take responsibility for his part is exactly what's needed to make co leading work. You can't control the other person, but you can always control how you show up. When you own your part, whether that's speaking up clearly, sharing expectations or clarifying roles, you're no longer just reacting to something someone else's moves. You're actively shaping the conversation and relationship. When you take responsibility for your share of any conflict or collaboration, you shift the whole dynamic and that's where real progress starts. That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time I became aware of a need to change and I realized I was like, wait. I'm doing everything for everyone. Like me leading this company more looks like me cleaning up everyone's stuff. If you'd like to join my community for exclusive live discussions, apply to be on the show or sign up for email updates, head over to murielwilkins.com youm can also pre order my new book Leadership Unblocked. Wherever you get your favorite books, you can follow me on LinkedIn, Muriel Wilkins, and Instagram oachmurielwilkins before you go though, I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Real Leaders, it would mean the world to me if you could go to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to, subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them. Thanks to my producer Mary Dew, Sound Editor Nick Krinko, Music Composer Brian Campbell, my Director of Operations Emily Sofa, and the entire team at hbr. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From HBR Podcast Network, I'm Yairel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.