How Do I Deal with a Competitive Peer?

Summary

Episode Summary: "How Do I Deal with a Competitive Peer?"

Podcast Title: Coaching Real Leaders
Host: Muriel Wilkins, Harvard Business Review
Episode Title: How Do I Deal with a Competitive Peer?
Release Date: May 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Coaching Real Leaders, leadership coach Muriel Wilkins engages in an insightful coaching session with a guest pseudonymously named Elsie. Elsie, a director aiming for a vice president position, grapples with professional challenges stemming from tensions with a competitive peer. This episode delves deep into the dynamics of leadership, organizational culture, and personal growth, offering valuable lessons for leaders at all levels.

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Background: Who is Elsie?

Elsie has been serving at the director level for several years, recently being identified as a high-potential leader poised for promotion to vice president—a role she hadn't actively sought out. Despite her dedication and effectiveness in her current position, Elsie faces obstacles that threaten her career progression.

Elsie [03:06]: "So far, I've been effective and I've gotten much feedback that what I'm doing is good. I don't know that I feel it quite yet, but that's kind of where we're at."

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The Challenge: Dealing with a Competitive Peer

Elsie's primary concern revolves around her strained relationship with a colleague who was once her mentor. This peer, now her equal, employs a leadership style that clashes with Elsie's more proactive and strategic approach. The shift in their professional relationship has led to ongoing friction, hindering Elsie's aspirations for advancement.

Elsie [07:38]: "There's a boys club mentality in some of the upper leadership... this peer is also at a level where he could want to take that next step as well, into a role that I would want."

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Leadership Styles and Organizational Culture

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on contrasting leadership styles and the broader organizational culture. Elsie identifies a predominantly male executive team that operates through informal channels, such as deals made outside the office, which excludes her and other female leaders from critical decision-making processes.

Elsie [09:35]: "The majority of executive leadership are all male... I don't hear any feedback and I'm never invited to the table, so to speak."

Muriel probes into how this "boys club" mentality affects Elsie's visibility and recognition within the company, emphasizing the gender dynamics at play.

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Strategies for Rising Above

Muriel guides Elsie to shift her perspective from attempting to change her peer's behavior to enhancing her own visibility and advocacy within the organization. The focus shifts to actionable strategies that Elsie can implement to align her contributions with the expectations of senior leadership.

Muriel Wilkins [25:02]: "What do I need to do in order to be visible and seen as somebody who is qualified for the role in the eyes of the decision makers of this company?"

Elsie acknowledges the need to proactively engage with executives by initiating conversations and presenting her achievements without altering her authentic leadership style.

Elsie [25:39]: "I think I need to make myself more visible... I need to be much more proactive about that."

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Building Self-Confidence and Self-Advocacy

A crucial aspect of the conversation revolves around Elsie's internal struggles with self-confidence and the desire for external validation. Muriel encourages Elsie to cultivate self-affirmation and recognize her own accomplishments, reducing reliance on external recognition.

Muriel Wilkins [44:40]: "What would that sound like? Oh, gosh, in this context, that's tough."

Elsie [44:49]: "Allowing myself time and space to appreciate what I've done and how far I've come and the successes I have had. That's tough."

Muriel suggests that by believing in her own value and effectively communicating it, Elsie can bridge the gap between her contributions and the recognition she seeks.

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Action Steps and Conclusion

By the end of the session, Elsie gains clarity on actionable steps to enhance her visibility and advocacy within the company:

1. Proactive Engagement: Initiate meetings with executives to update them on project progress and highlight her contributions.
2. Direct Communication with Manager: Discuss with her manager ways to further support her visibility efforts without feeling like she's bypassing her leader.
3. Self-Affirmation: Develop practices to recognize and celebrate her own achievements, building internal confidence.

Elsie [51:53]: "I think I can do that. I gotta try it first."

Muriel concludes by reinforcing the importance of self-belief and strategic self-presentation, empowering Elsie to take control of her leadership journey.

Muriel Wilkins [52:30]: "That's all we have control over, really, to a certain extent, even... ourselves."

Elsie leaves the coaching session feeling optimistic and equipped with a clear plan to navigate her professional challenges.

Elsie [52:02]: "I'm feeling much more optimistic and I have a plan, which I love planning. ... So much more optimistic."

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Key Takeaways

• Self-Advocacy is Crucial: Leaders must proactively communicate their achievements and contributions to gain visibility.
• Understanding Organizational Culture: Recognizing and navigating the existing culture is essential for career advancement.
• Balancing Self-Confidence and External Recognition: Building internal confidence reduces dependency on external validation and fosters authentic leadership.
• Strategic Communication: Tailoring conversations to align with the priorities of senior leadership can enhance perceived value.

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Notable Quotes

• Elsie [05:03]: "I feel like I could always do better and more,... that's a recipe for burnout."
• Muriel Wilkins [22:28]: "The question really becomes like, what do you want to do?"
• Elsie [25:02]: "I want to be the first person that comes to the mind of the executive team when, if and when a next level position opens."
• Muriel Wilkins [33:18]: "It's not dismissing what was done, but what I'm hearing in terms of what you're saying is important to these senior executives is not so much, what did you do to avert the crisis? They're not interested in the to do list."

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Conclusion

This episode of Coaching Real Leaders offers a profound exploration of the interplay between personal ambition, leadership dynamics, and organizational culture. Through Elsie's journey, listeners gain practical insights into overcoming professional challenges by enhancing self-advocacy, understanding and navigating corporate cultures, and building internal confidence. Muriel Wilkins effectively demonstrates the transformative power of strategic coaching in unlocking leadership potential.

Transcript

[Elsie]

How can you find amazing candidates fast?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Easy. Just use Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com RealLeaders Indeed.com RealLeaders Terms and Conditions apply. Every great leader faces defining moments. If growth is on your horizon, Jobs Ohio is your partner in making it happen seamlessly. With workforce programs ready to build sites and a private funding model that eliminates surprises, Ohio is the strategic move you can trust. Build, innovate and grow with confidence. Get [e-mail] I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Elsie to protect her confidentiality. She's been at the director level for a few years and her goal is to next become a vp, a leadership position she never would have imagined earlier in her life.

[Elsie]

I did not seek out leadership at any point in my career. I did not know that that was going to be in the cards for me. It wasn't something that I specifically directed myself towards as far as education or development until I was identified as someone that could potentially have those skills.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Despite feeling like she's succeeding in her current role, Elsie is concerned that tension with a colleague could be standing in her way of being promoted to vp. That colleague had been a mentor and previously held the director role that Elsie is in, but now they're peers and the situation has changed.

[Elsie]

It was really this individual that I'm now struggling with who identified that things I was doing just naturally my natural habits and work ethic could benefit our company in a leadership role. Since that transition happened, it hasn't been a very smooth road. There's been some clashing. We don't agree on a lot of things. We have different leadership styles, so that has been challenging.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Before I dive into the relationship tension with her colleague, I wanted to take a step back and further understand why Elsie was identified as a high potential leader and to get a better picture of her strengths. That's where we begin.

[Elsie]

So when I was first identified, I think it was mostly the fact that I'm just a very hard worker. And when I say hard worker, it doesn't feel hard to me because I feel like I'm just doing my job. And so I was usually the first one to volunteer for special projects, for working overtime, for taking additional shifts in just a staff position. And that was highly valued at the company that I'm currently in. And so the individual who mentored me recognized that being similar qualities to them, a kind of a kindred spirit, so to speak, and convinced me that that was a strong suit and that would do me well in leadership. And then from there, now that I report to someone else, my leader says that I'm very thorough in what I do. I have a certain level of empathy, and I'm an emotional person, so I can relate to the staff. But I also can be very objective because I do the research, I find all the facts, I really get to the bottom of things before I assume anything. And I love to read and study and learn. So I've just been continually taking classes and doing other leadership things to try to better myself, which is also been recognized. Like, I'm doing the work, I'm putting in the work. And so far, I've been effective and I've gotten much feedback that what I'm doing is good. I don't know that I feel it quite yet, but that's kind of where we're at.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay. I mean, it sounds like everything you've mentioned around, you know, strong work ethic, taking initiative, being able to have the eq, to connect with others while still the objectivity to challenge and drive for results. I mean, that is kind of the things that we look for foundationally and a leader, and I hear you around, having gotten that feedback that you're effective and yet you're saying you don't quite feel it. What is it that you do feel?

[Elsie]

I feel like I could always do better and more, which I know is silly, and that's a recipe for burnout. But also in my work, whether it's normal leadership things or extra projects or whatever that I'm taking on, I always just feel like I am doing my job. I never feel like I'm going above and beyond. And I have a hard time with individuals who I don't feel like are meeting their potential or working to their capabilities, because that just seems natural to me. Why would I work any less hard or not use my skills? And apparently that's not as common as I like to think. And so that is something that, to me, it just doesn't feel like extra or above and beyond or anything special because I'm doing the job that I was hired to do and promoted to do.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, so on the one hand, you feel like you can be doing better or more, and on the other hand, you're feeling like I'm working to the max that I can. Is that correct or no? Like, tell me what the.

[Elsie]

I think. Well, so to be fair, I have a lot on my plate, so I think that is part of it. I feel like I am maxing myself out most days, most weeks. However, I still have a pile of things that I feel like I will never get to, and that, over time, does make me feel like, am I really cut out for this? Can I really keep up with this pace and do this work at even a higher level potentially in the future?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, I understand. Yep. And, you know, I mean, I think. I think the more productive you are. Right. The more there is to do. Exactly. Exactly. So. So now you're sort of thinking about that next step, and you're sort of thinking about, you know, potentially advancing in your leadership journey. You like leading. You think you're pretty good at it.

[Elsie]

From what I'm told.

[Muriel Wilkins]

It's what you're told. Okay, so you think you're pretty good at it, and you think you could be doing more. How about that? Yeah, it's yes or no?

[Elsie]

Yeah, Yes, I think that's accurate.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I'm not gonna tell you about. Okay, well, we'll go. We're gonna go with that for now. I don't know if that. That it is. We'll get there. And you're trying to figure out how to position yourself for that next step, but there's a bit of a roadblock as you're thinking about that. Okay.

[Elsie]

Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So tell me about your roadblock. What's going on? Why is it a roadblock?

[Elsie]

So a little bit more context. There's definitely a. A boys club mentality in some of the upper leadership. And so I've found it challenging to find my way into that boys club. And then the individual who I'm struggling with, he has made himself comfortable in that voice club. And so while I am here doing everything by the book, going through the correct channels of authority, if I need something done or approved or whatever, and he just goes right into the owner's office and gets what he wants, which is. Is frustrating. And so I have some theories as to why that is, but I think my main purpose or goal at this point is how do I rise above that? How do I get to a place where I'm positioned to take that next step if and when it becomes available. Because this peer is also at a level where he could want to take that next step as well, into a role that I would want. And I want to, regardless of reasons or personalities, I just want to be able to rise above that and position myself in the best way possible.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, so there's a lot there.

[Elsie]

There's a lot. I'm sorry.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Oh, you don't have to apologize. Right. I mean, deep breath for both of us. Right. Let me ask first. Cause you described it as a boys club in leadership, in the more senior ranks of leadership and. Right. And like, I just want to understand what that actually means in your context, because the way I might configure what a boys club is is different than what you might be experiencing.

[Elsie]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So how are you experiencing? What then makes you articulated as a boys club?

[Elsie]

Great question. The majority of executive leadership are all male. And so they have their way of doing things, which in my experience and opinion is kind of the old school, you know, the. The deals made over a drink with. With each other, with. With partners, et cetera, and not really allowing others to have any influence over decisions or company direction or anything like that. That's shifting. But it's still heavily male in those ranks. There are a few of us female leaders. The way that I feel it the most is I don't hear from any of the executive leadership unless there's a problem and an emergency, and then it's like, fix this right now. But even when I'm doing great things, not so great things, I don't hear any feedback and I'm never invited to the table, so to speak. When it comes to the bigger decisions, I'm usually being told, this is what's going to happen with your department. This could just be me feeling like it is a gender issue, but with it being all males at that level and not seeing the female representation like it should be, I think that's a. That's a part of it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay. And you know, your lived experience is helping you create an attribution as to why these things are happening. I am not here to say one way or the other. Right. Because that would be me projecting my experience on you, and that would not be beneficial for any of us. What we need to work through is if that's the way you're experiencing it, you know, as there being sort of this gender separation that is causing you to then not be at the table or not hearing from certain People we need to then think about what can you do within that context. Okay, so you've been experiencing this for a while. I'm just curious, like, what impact has it had on you?

[Elsie]

It's very discouraging in a couple different ways. So it's discouraging because the individual who I feel is really the biggest roadblock was previously a mentor, and I truly wouldn't be where I am in the company today if it wasn't for this person. And so there's guilt around that. There's also frustration because I've brought this to my manager's attention, his manager's attention. It's not a secret that anybody's keeping. I'm not keeping it to myself. And suffering in silence. It's very apparent. And I've had direct conversations with this individual explaining exactly how I feel, what he's doing, whether he means to or not. This is what's happening and nothing ever changes. So it is very discouraging. And where it gets immensely discouraging is the possibility of a position in the future that there's only one of. And at this point in time, today it would be between him and I, and. And I fear that I would not be the first choice because of the way that he leads and the way that he manages has been undermining and kind of overriding my style for so long.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay. And, you know, look, I want to acknowledge the frustration or the disappointment, as you put it. What's behind the disappointment? What are you disappointed in?

[Elsie]

So when I say different leadership styles, I can elaborate a little bit. So this individual manages by crisis and I believe enjoys the, you know, the thrill of fixing the problem, you know, putting out the fire, etc. That drives me crazy and would cause me to burn out very quickly. So I proactively manage and I look at a problem in a bigger picture and try to change the policies, the procedures, the resources that cause that problem in the first place so that it doesn't keep happening. And those two leadership styles, also personality styles, are very different. So I am a little bit more quiet. I. I'm very like to observe and learn before I speak up. He likes to walk into a room and. And be the loudest center of attention person, which is. There's nothing wrong with that. But in my experience with this company, that is more valued because he's just there and in their face and loud and. And here's what I did. I saved the day, I fixed this problem, et cetera, where I'm in the background a little bit More doing great things from what I'm told and from my feedback that I'm getting, but not. Not getting the recognition because I don't want to be the center of attention. That's just not my personality. I'm more of a quiet person that will absolutely speak up when I need to, but that's not my. My goal every time I walk into a room. So that's. That's really challenging to have those. Those different leadership styles and be perceived, I think, in different ways. I'm told all the time that I'm quiet, which makes me a little crazy because I'm quiet because I'm observing, I'm learning, I'm watching. And I don't feel like adding bluff to conversations. I don't need to pull in a story every time something comes up and just make everything about me or put the spotlight back on me. I will absolutely speak up and be very loud if I need to in the right context, in the right setting. I think I fly under the radar. And so those upper leadership that really need to be the ones to see what I'm doing aren't seeing it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, I understand. And you just said something now, which is you will absolutely speak up and be loud if you need to, which means you have the ability to do it. Right?

[Elsie]

I do, and I. Maybe I should clarify that a little bit. My personality is not loud and boisterous and like, over the top all the time. And that's where I think I'm going unnoticed. If I have something to say, if I'm doing a presentation, if I have a concern, I will bring it up and I will speak and I will be very adamant and. And very direct. I've been very direct with this individual, but just on a regular, normal day, I'm not bouncing all over the place. Just. I just don't have that level of energy or that type of personality.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. What struck me is when you said I can do these things if I need to. Right. Which is really kind of advocate for yourself.

[Elsie]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay. What makes you feel like you need to do that versus not?

[Elsie]

I think it's the recognition that my peer gets that I don't. And that to me and my lived experience is because he's. He's loud and in your face. And I don't mean that in a. In a negative way. It's just a personality difference. But for whatever reason, that type of personality seems to get more attention, seems to just be at the forefront of everyone's minds. I'm still struggling with getting a lot of the leadership to understand that that's not his job anymore. It's like, oh no, actually I'm supposed to go to Elsie and it's so frustrating to have to continuously do that.

[Muriel Wilkins]

What does the future hold for business? Can someone invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the 1 Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one platform. With real time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning for free at netsuite.com coachingrealeaders that's netsuite.com coachingreal leaders I've got some big news to share. I've got a new book coming out. Leadership Unblocked is launching this October with HBR Press and I can't wait for you to read it. It's filled with insights from my years of coaching executives and a roadmap to help you break free from the mindsets that hold you back from being the leader you want to be. You can pre order it now. Just search for Leadership Unblocked wherever you order your favorite books and you'll be among the first to receive a copy. When opportunities for next level roles become far and few between, it's natural to feel like competition is brewing with peers who are also contenders. In LC Case, that sense of competition is heightened because of the differences in style between her and her colleague, whose approach seems to be more valued by leadership, and she feels disadvantaged because she's not part of the boys club. As she puts it, it's important that when my clients experience being othered that I acknowledge it because it is their experience and my job is to help them figure out how to operate in that context. And while I can empathize with Elsie and the circumstances she faces, the reality is that you can't always change someone else's behavior or a company culture to get what you want and what you deserve. But you are able to flex your perspective and your approach to align with your end goal. So with that in mind, I wanted to hone in on what Elsie might want to do to improve her situation as it stands today. And that starts by better understanding the tension she's feeling with her peer. So the question really becomes like, what do you want to do? Which is different than what you need to do in this situation. Okay, let's start with the need. If you are talking to a friend right now dealing with the exact same situation at A different company. What advice would you give them?

[Elsie]

I would make sure that they've brought it to the correct attention. Management and leadership. Expressed your concerns, if possible, directly with the individual. I feel like that's probably the most effective. But if that doesn't work, bring in their leader, your leader. Go up the route that you need to go beyond that. That's where I get stuck. So I don't know what other advice I would give, and those are the things that I've done.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So.

[Elsie]

So I know that it hasn't worked in my situation, but I'd like to think if talking with a friend, it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Might and it hasn't worked. Like, what are you using as a metric of whether it's worked or not worked?

[Elsie]

I've had the conversations, and the ones that are the most frustrating are the ones I have directly with this individual. Because I feel like at the time when we're speaking, we come to an understanding, we make agreements to communicate better and not try to trip over each other. And then few weeks, few days later, another situation happens where I find out after the fact that he did something or made a decision or had a meeting without me and didn't invite me, when it's 100% within my umbrella of authority and not his anymore. Part of the struggle is, yes, he used to do this job. So I think he feels like he knows better than I do, having more experience and having done the same things before. So we don't agree on the way that we go about solving problems. And so it just keeps happening. There was a situation that happened that was very upsetting, and I just brought it right, right to him. And again, we agreed we need to communicate more. We, you know, please don't.

[Muriel Wilkins]

You.

[Elsie]

You gotta let go of your old position. Like, just all the same thing, all the same words were said. And it just. I was optimistic, but also very hesitant to be optimistic, if that makes sense, because it keeps happening.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, so look, in any given situation, right, you can do nothing, which clearly has not been the way you've approached this. You can try to change the other person, which I think is what you've been trying to do, or you can change your response to the situation, or you can exit the situation. Those are generally ways to think about it. And by the way, none of those have guarantees.

[Elsie]

Sure. Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So you've tried to change how he operates, and that doesn't seem to be working.

[Elsie]

No.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, so what do you feel you would need to do differently than what you're doing now in order to be able to attain the outcomes that you want. And before you answer that, I think there's a sub question that we haven't really clarified, which is, what is the outcome that you want? What is it that you want?

[Elsie]

I want to be the first person that comes to the mind of the executive team when, if and when a next level position opens. That I think is my ultimate outcome. I want my results, my work ethic to speak for itself, so to speak. And I want there to be no doubt when that day comes, if that day comes, that I'm the best qualified for this position. I think I have to change my response to the way that he is behaving. To me, that seems I have explored the exit option as well. I don't think I'm ready for that. I feel like I have more to give to this company. But I will tell you, if that position opened tomorrow and it went to him, I would promptly be looking for another position because I would feel very disrespected, I think, if that were to happen.

[Muriel Wilkins]

All right, so you've sort of thought through, you know, the if, then what? Because yes, I love that you're saying I have a lot to give this company, and in order to be able to give, there needs to be one that is ready and wanting to receive.

[Elsie]

Right? Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I could give a bunch of money out there, and if there's nobody to receive it, the check comes back. Right. That's the way it works. That happened recently. It wasn't a bunch of money, but I was like, paying something for my dad and then they sent the check.

[Elsie]

Back and I was like, oh, I guess they didn't want.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I'm ready to give, but clearly they don't want it. Right. So what you're saying is you have things that you think are valuable that you want to give the company, and there's a possibility. Right. That's the reality of it. In an ideal world, they would want it.

[Elsie]

Sure.

[Muriel Wilkins]

The reality of it might be that that's not what they want. And I hate that. But that's the way it is. All right, but we're not there yet. In the meantime, you're saying, okay, like, how do I respond differently so that I can show up as the best qualified for this position? So I want you to imagine for a minute that the response is not to this individual.

[Elsie]

Okay.

[Muriel Wilkins]

The question is not about how do I make myself, you know, one up this individual. I know that's not the exact words, but like, it's not in response to him.

[Elsie]

Okay, Okay.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I want you to think about this from the perspective of there is a particular role that I'm interested in, I'm interested in advancing to the next step. And the question really is, what do I need to do in order to be visible and seen as somebody who is qualified for the role in the eyes of the decision makers of this company? And you know who those decision makers are? I don't know them.

[Elsie]

Yes, right. I think I need to make myself more visible. I think I need to invite myself into some of these offices. Not in quite the loud, obnoxious way that I've observed, but more of a. Hey, I just wanted to check in and give you an update on this project that I'm working on. And I think I need to be much more proactive about that. I think I've been waiting to be invited, which hasn't worked, and I think I just need to insert myself at times. I know all of these individuals, I work with them, I see them, I say good morning to them every day, but I'm not having genuine conversations, if that makes sense.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So what you're saying is like in order to be at the table in this particular company. Right. You kind of can't wait to be invited.

[Elsie]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

You just have to sort of say, hey, I'm here.

[Elsie]

Yeah, that's really tough.

[Muriel Wilkins]

What's tough about it?

[Elsie]

This is where the self confidence issues start to come in.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, so tell me more, what makes it tough?

[Elsie]

You know, everybody is busy, so I don't think anybody wants those time wasting conversations. And so it's feeling confident enough that I have information that is valuable to interrupt whatever, a morning email session or something and just go in and say, hey, can I chat with you for five minutes about this project that I'm working on? I wanted you to be aware or here's my progress or here's my struggles. Another part that I think I need to be better at is I relied pretty heavily on my direct leader as kind of a bridge in between executive committee and myself. And I think I need to stop letting her do that so much. I think she does it partially to protect me in ways, but I also sometimes feel like maybe she doesn't have the confidence in me. And if she doesn't have the confidence in me, how am I going to have the confidence in myself? So I think I need to start proving myself to her in a way as well by just going to some of these decision makers and making myself known.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay.

[Elsie]

I think, yeah, you think none of this is for sure, but that's.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Listen, nothing Is for sure. But we're. We're trying to get there. We're a little more sure than we were a few minutes ago. So you sort of brought up two things. One is, huh, okay, yes, I can. I can kind of go to these meetings. But then, like, what the heck do I say when I get there? Right? Like, is it going to be valuable or are people going to think it's a waste of time? And then you talked about the fact that a lot of times you're a manager for whatever reason. I mean, there's a bunch of different reasons why it could be happening. Sort of acts as your ambassador, your representative, and therefore you don't have to show your face or be the one. Cause she sort of takes it on. Right. Let's unpack that a little bit. Because I think there might be different strategies behind both of those. You know, the first one being, will what I have to contribute be valued? Okay, that's what I heard. Is that on point?

[Elsie]

Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

What makes you feel like what you have to contribute would not be valued?

[Elsie]

I get the feeling that that level of our leadership, I don't want to say care. Doesn't always pay attention to what the individual departments are doing. They just want everything to be taken care of. So this is what I say when. I mean, I only hear from them when there's a problem that gets to their level and then it's an emergency. Fix this right now. This is your responsibility. And that's kind of been the way that I think the company has managed for quite a long time. And again, that the culture is shifting. We're in the midst of a culture shift right now, which is wonderful. I still get that just nagging feeling in the back of my head that they just don't care as long as I'm taking care of things, which I am. But then I don't hear from them. So it's just this cycle of, do they see me? Do they not? Are they recognizing what I'm doing? And when I ask my leader, she's like, yes, then they recognize what you're doing. They appreciate it. They know that you're a strong leader. It's like, I don't ever hear that directly from them to be a hundred percent confident that that's true. So I worry that they don't necessarily care how I'm doing things in my department. Just they're getting done.

[Muriel Wilkins]

That might be true. They might not care about the sausage making. Right. Like they've got other things to worry about. Like they don't really want to know the how, they just want to know the what. Right? Yes, exactly. And so, you know, part of this, Elsie, I think, is, you know, it's no different than, like, if you go present to an audience. Right. Like, Rule 101 of doing a presentation is thinking about your audience and saying, why should they care? Yeah.

[Elsie]

Oh, yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And it's not a criticism of you. Right. It's more a. Oh, okay. Yes, I have something to offer. And now I've got to figure out how does that connect to their agenda? Because everybody has different agendas, and that's okay. We all have different agendas. You know, there is no rule that says I should care just because. I mean, that would be nice in an ideal world, but we're not there. So in the meantime, I think it's finding that intersection between how you are contributing value and what they care about. And what I hear you saying is it kind of goes back to the beginning, Right. When you said you always feel like there's more that needs to be done. It strikes me that you are defining your value as getting things done. There's like a productivity element to it. Right. Or solving the issue before anybody even knows about it. And what they care about is that the issue is dealt with, crisis averted.

[Elsie]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

It's not to take away from what you're doing. I just think you need to present it and speak it at their level, which is not in the action steps. It's in the. It is at the crisis element, whether crisis coming or crisis averted. Okay, so tell me what you're hearing here.

[Elsie]

I'm hearing that I need to tailor these conversations to what I perceive them to care about. And I have a couple of ideas around that already. I'm. I'm not following the I tie my value to productivity statement. Can you. Can you help me with that one?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, yeah. So when I say that, you know, when I talk about productivity, it's your to do list. Right?

[Elsie]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So what did we do to get to the point where we averted the crisis? So it's starting with the action steps rather than the outcome. The outcome is crisis averted.

[Elsie]

Okay. Okay.

[Muriel Wilkins]

It's not dismissing what was done, but what I'm hearing in terms of what you're saying is important to these senior executives is not so much, what did you do to avert the crisis? They're not interested in the to do list.

[Elsie]

Right.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And the action steps. They're interested in the prize at the end. Did we win it or did we not? And so that has to be your starting point if you want to speak their language. Does that make sense?

[Elsie]

That does make sense. Yes. And the wheel's already turning.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay.

[Elsie]

Hear you say that.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And by the way, if you had come in today and said, oh, you know, I tend to go in and sort of tell them, oh, it's taken care of. Don't worry about it. And they're like, no, we want. Show us the spreadsheet. And we want to know, like, what steps you took and did you think about this? And we kind of want to get into it and workshop it. Then it would be the other way around.

[Elsie]

Yeah. Okay. They don't want that.

[Muriel Wilkins]

They don't.

[Elsie]

They don't want another spreadsheet.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So what I'm hearing is that you're actually adding value in a way that they want, which is you're getting rid of problems. Right. But you're not communicating it in a way that they could understand that that's what you're doing. For two reasons. One is you're not in the room to communicate it.

[Elsie]

Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And two is when you are in the room, how are you communicating it?

[Elsie]

Not the way they want to hear it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And how does that feel for you, that that's the way they want to hear it, hypothetically? Because, you know, they're not in front of me.

[Elsie]

I can see where it makes sense, especially to someone who has a lot of other departments to manage and a company to run and budgets to figure out. So I can understand where it's good to just know you have a strong leader leading this department. And I just want to know that things are going well. I guess my assumption was that they should notice that and then recognize my efforts, whereas I think I need to bring it to their attention that, hey, we've been more productive in this category over the last six months because I've done X, Y, and Z and make them recognize me. That makes sense.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. I mean, should they maybe, like. Yeah, it would be nice if they did. Absolutely. It would be really nice if they did. And guess what? That's something you'll be able to do for your team members. Right. Or when you're in senior leadership, you'll.

[Elsie]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

You'll make sure you recognize and point people out. The reality of it is they aren't, at least from what you've shared. So the choices to, as you said, to sort of sit and wait for them to do that.

[Elsie]

It's not working.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Or to put it in front of them and then see what happens. Right. Do they value it or do they.

[Elsie]

Not Can I ask you a question? And I know you don't know these individuals, but is it, is it too much to ask? Because again, I'm being told by my leader that they do recognize and appreciate it. I just don't hear about it. Is it too much to ask them to say, hey, I hear that you think I'm doing a good job or you're telling me now that I'm coming to you that I'm doing a good job. Could you every once in a while check in with me and just say, hey, great job. I see these metrics improved this month or something like that. Or is it should I just focus on what I can control and what I can do and not even ask the question? You've worked hard to get to where you are, but what's Next?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Strawberry Me Career coaching helps mid career professionals like you take the next big step with confidence. They'll match you with a certified career.

[Elsie]

Coach who understands your goals and challenges.

[Muriel Wilkins]

This isn't just advice, it's a personalized, results driven approach to uncover hidden strengths, overcome obstacles and accelerate your career growth. Take the next step Today, Visit Strawberry Me HBR to claim your $50 credit. That's Strawberry Me HBR. It seems Elsie is frustrated not just by the behavior of her colleague and the tension she feels from it, but also by her own lack of clarity as to whether the higher ups at the organization recognize her work. It's a common desire to want your work to speak for itself, but the reality is that may not be enough to get people's attention. Sometimes you've got to tell them. For Elsie, a lack of direct connection and feedback from the leaders of her organization are making it harder to know if what she's doing matters and therefore she's questioning whether she matters. We've now reached a point in the coaching session where Elsie has asked me a direct question about what her right next step should be and whether she's overstepping her bounds. But my validating her need to know what to do would not be helping her. So instead, in an effort to have her exercise her own agency, I answer her question with a a question and volley the ball back into her court to help her answer it for herself. So let me ask you a question. What is wanting you to want them to take the initiative?

[Elsie]

Oh, that is a good question. I think it's one of my love languages. I think those words of affirmation really help me and I think it stems from me being a somewhat more quiet. I don't want to Say, closed off, but I do my job, I do it quietly, and I just kind of move on. You know, I'm not looking for praise and, like, put me on the billboards all the time, but doing that day in, day out and working as hard as I do and not having any recognition for that, it's just not great. But, I mean, if you think or say that they have no obligation to do that and I need to be the one to come to them and ask for that or present that, that's reasonable, too.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, I mean, that's not what I'm saying. I. I'm not saying that they have no obligation. I don't know if they have an obligation or not. Right. What I'm saying is they've kind of shown you who they are.

[Elsie]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

You know, it kind of goes back to one of the greatest wisdom teachers of them all, Maya Angelou. Right. Who said, if they show you who they are, believe them.

[Elsie]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And I know it feels. I'm looking at your face, right. It feels icky, like we're scrunching up our faces, like, oh, this isn't the way we want it to be. And yet it is. Could you ask them to do that? Absolutely. Does it mean that they will? I don't know. And so I think the question for me is, at this point right now, who do you trust more to get you closer to your goal of getting those words of affirmation, you going and showing and saying, okay, here's what I did. What do you think? Or you waiting for them to take the initiative to say, oh, I see what you did. Now let me come and give it to you.

[Elsie]

I need to go to them and ask for it, essentially, or ask for it by presenting them the information and the outcomes that I've achieved.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And by the way, Elsie, I don't think this has anything to do with being loud or quiet. You haven't heard me mention those words at all. Right.

[Elsie]

I hear them a lot, so I think that's why they're talking.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right. For me. But that's how people sort of project things.

[Elsie]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

They like to put things in buckets. Yeah. Loud or quiet, right?

[Elsie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Asking for recognition does not mean being loud or presenting. Advocating making visible what it is that you do does not equate being loud. It's just showing how you add value and then asking, here's what I did. What do you think about what I did?

[Elsie]

Yeah, I think I can do that.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And. Yeah, you can do that. Great, great.

[Elsie]

I think I can do it. I gotta try it first.

[Muriel Wilkins]

You can try it.

[Elsie]

Yes, I can.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So that would be going to them. And then there's the second element, which is your manager, who has sort of been your representative. Right. Ambassador. And so tell me what you think could happen in that dynamic that would benefit you more in terms of showing up as being qualified for this next level position.

[Elsie]

Well, from my conversations with her, she believes I'm already well on my way to positioning myself for that. So I don't know that I feel a roadblock there. I have a great sponsor in her. She, though, does recognize the executive team. Just happens to notice other individuals for other reasons more so than me. So she's gently told me, you need to, you know, speak up more, I guess, to put it lightly. But then she also, like I said earlier, I think she tries to protect me in some ways.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Elsie]

I think I might need to be more direct with her and say, you know, I appreciate what you. What you're doing, but I need to let me have the opportunity to say or report some of these things because I don't ever want to feel like I'm going around her by any means. But she has been wonderfully supportive.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So when you have somebody who supports you like that. Yes. You go and say, hey, I appreciate what you're doing, and here's how I think you can support me even more.

[Elsie]

Okay. She would be open to that, for sure.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Can we try it? Not sure if it's going to work. Right. Because you're basically responding to the advice that she gave you. This is not any different than the conversation we just had about using the language. Okay. Something just came to me. You're learning everybody's love languages. Yes. Okay.

[Elsie]

There's so much.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So your love languages, you know, words of affirmation. The senior executives love languages. Results, crisis averted. And then your sponsor, your manager love languages. I want to let you fly, but please be careful. I'm going to try to protect you. And so you have to sort of approach it in that way. Right. You're the one who told me that I've got to be careful up there, how things are done, but I need to put myself more forward and at the same time, you don't want me to get negative results. So can we come up with a strategy on how to get me in front of these folks more? So engage her in the process.

[Elsie]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah.

[Elsie]

Okay.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay.

[Elsie]

Makes me feel less nervous about doing it.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Less nervous. Yeah. I'm liking this idea of different love languages.

[Elsie]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I don't Think I've ever thought about love languages in the workplace, but here we are. So the question still remains. How do you get your love language met?

[Elsie]

Yes. I think I have to ask for it. I think I have to be confident and bold enough to ask for it and bring these outcomes and say, here's what I did. What do you think?

[Muriel Wilkins]

What do you think exactly? Yeah. Okay. What do you think? And may I make an additional suggestion? I think you sort of need to give it to yourself, like, more words of affirmation.

[Elsie]

To myself?

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. Okay. What would that sound like? Oh, gosh, in this context, that's tough.

[Elsie]

I think allowing myself to feel successful and reflect back on the journey that I've had so far and not always feel like I have to have my eyes on the next project or prize or problem in front of me. Just giving. Allowing myself time and space to appreciate what I've done and how far I've come and the successes I have had. That's tough.

[Muriel Wilkins]

What's. What's tough about it?

[Elsie]

Oh, I. I don't know where this comes from, but I. I just feel the need to work so hard all the time, and. And I don't even know whose approval I'm seeking, and I'm not. I think it's mostly internal, but I don't know why I can't just appreciate. And everyone outside of me tells me all the time, except for these executives, how well I've done just in life, in career, in family, and I have such a hard time seeing it myself. I'm not sure why.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, I don't know why either. Right. But you've articulated something that's important, and the reason it's important is, look where you are in your career and where you're headed. If you don't. If you can't be your own cheerleader like your colleague over there is. Right. The external words of affirmation become lesser and lesser. Yeah, okay, you're right. Perhaps. Perhaps this is hypothetically, perhaps the senior executives who are not giving you that are the very situation that you need in order to learn how to give it to yourself.

[Elsie]

That would help, I think, and to.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Put it into, like, real, like, business terms. Right. Like, this is about, you know, if we go away from the words of affirmation, it's like, do you believe in the value that you bring? You know, can you. Can you go to sleep at night and say, yeah, I'm doing a damn good job. Right. And I know what I can do. I might not be all the way yet. There Yet. But I do believe that I can do it, even though I may not have achieved it.

[Elsie]

That's heavy stuff. That's heavy stuff. Believe it or not, I've improved my self confidence. It used to be a lot worse, so it's a work in progress.

[Muriel Wilkins]

But yeah, I mean, look, I don't think there's a dashboard for confidence. Right.

[Elsie]

Yeah. If only there's a pill or something you could take.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I don't think there's a trophy of like, where are the wins? You know, I think what you're just noticing is that. Oh, like this, me believing in what I'm doing and believing that what everybody else is saying about me is actually true. In order for me to be able to go in that room and authentically say it, not loudly say it, not quietly say it. Right. If I want to expect it from others, then I need to expect it from myself. That's it. And giving yourself some grace when it doesn't happen.

[Elsie]

Yeah, that too. I'm very hard on myself.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. But I loved your suggestion of. Yeah, let me take a look at my track record. When you look at your track record, what story does it tell you that.

[Elsie]

I started with little to nothing and built a life, a family, a career that I'm very proud of based on where I came from. And I just forget to sit down and remember that sometimes. I think I'm always looking for that next prize in the sky. It'll be interesting if I ever do reach a VP level, if that'll be enough for me. Because is that like the top of the mountain or is there more to be had? Not sure yet.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Not sure yet. I mean, I think that's part of what you need to sit with. Right. Is, is it possible to have it not be one or the other? Meaning I can look at what I've done and be damn proud about it and say, wow, like, look at where I am and ooh, that VP position looks quite nice. Yes.

[Elsie]

Yes, it's that balance.

[Muriel Wilkins]

But that VP position doesn't mean that what I have done is not good enough.

[Elsie]

That is true.

[Muriel Wilkins]

So there's something around. I think it's the conviction. Right. And what's conviction? It's belief in what you have done and what you bring to the table.

[Elsie]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And if you don't believe in what you bring to the table, it's very hard to have others believe it. In your case, I think they believe it. You're just not hearing it back. But that might just be a. That I don't. I don't know if that's a function of you.

[Elsie]

Probably not, but it doesn't help me when I don't hear it. Okay. So I need, I need to ask for it. And I do think that might help me in my own self confidence journey because if I have to present it, then I have to think about it and I have to make. Make a case for why this was successful and I was responsible for it. I think I'm focused daily on just the next crisis that I have to solve.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah, of course.

[Elsie]

Because those, those wins just aren't. You know, it's like, great, I succeeded and I got to move on to the next one.

[Muriel Wilkins]

That's right. Because it keeps you from being able to sit and say, oh, wow, what I've done is actually pretty good.

[Elsie]

Yeah.

[Muriel Wilkins]

You know, I would suggest that there's a. And here it's not one or the other. And in the spirit of the. And I think this is. There's a. Both. Yes. You know, I'm not going to say, oh, no, no, no. You shouldn't want to get recognition from others. I mean, you work with others. Right. So you're going to do that. Ask. And it's very interesting to me that you used the word self confidence because there's the word self. And so self confidence has nothing to do with anyone else. I'm not in a position where I can unpack that for you because that's not my profession.

[Elsie]

No, I'm working on it, I promise.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And that's fine. Right. It's the awareness around it and how it's playing out in this forum. So very interesting that for some time we haven't even talked about the person who shall not be named.

[Elsie]

I was hoping that would happen, to be honest, because that's what I need to do, is I need to let him be him, do what I do best. And as we talked about, I just need to be more vocal about it and not worry about what's going on in the background or behind my back, I guess.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Yeah. So that's the rising. Rising above.

[Elsie]

Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Right.

[Elsie]

And that's. That's ultimately what I need to do.

[Muriel Wilkins]

All right, so I feel like you have some action steps.

[Elsie]

I absolutely do.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Okay, so I think we can wrap it up. So tell me, how are you feeling now versus how you felt when we first got started?

[Elsie]

I'm feeling much more optimistic and I have a plan, which I love planning. So having a plan really helps me. And I love that most of our conversation did not focus around an individual. It's really about Me and what I need to do to reach the level that I'm looking for. So much more optimistic.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I mean, at the end of the day, that's all we have control over, really, to a certain extent, even. Right. Is ourselves.

[Elsie]

Yes.

[Muriel Wilkins]

And so I think whenever you're feeling stuck in the future or you're coming back to this frustration, the disappointment, I actually think what will be helpful for you is to sort of take that moment and say, how can I express the love language that I feel like I'm missing from others to myself? Okay. In whatever way you need to. And that's bringing. That'll be bringing it back to you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to use love languages and coaching for the first time.

[Elsie]

I honestly use that a lot and I think about it a lot. I mean, in management, you know, you can't manage everybody the same. You have to speak to what speaks to them. So.

[Muriel Wilkins]

Absolutely. Well, thank you.

[Elsie]

Yeah, thank you. This has been wonderful.

[Muriel Wilkins]

By the end of our coaching conversation, Elsie realized that rising above the competition within herself was essential to navigating the dynamics with her peer and senior leadership. Sometimes, in fact, most times, the roadblocks we face are meant to teach us the very thing we need to learn to be able to get ahead. In Elsie's case, knowing that she's doing good work and yet not getting that recognition from leadership that she feels she needs was an opportunity to explore what it means to lead herself. This would require her to acknowledge and recognize the values she brings and thereby by building her own self confidence first before asking for it from others. That is not to say that recognition from others is not important. Of course it is. But there's a difference between needing it to make you feel confident versus wanting it because you feel worthy of it. And that small nuance can make all the difference in how you advocate for yourself, regardless of your style and the circumstances around you. That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time, I am experiencing something that.

[Elsie]

I would call like dual leadership challenge.

[Muriel Wilkins]

I am internal manager at my company has an external agency to complete a project. This agency has a very skilled and really great product lead who is basically in the same role as I am and this leads to misunderstandings. If you'd like to join my community for exclusive live discussions, apply to be on the show or sign up for email updates, head over to murielwilkins.com youm can also pre order my new book, Leadership Unblocked. Wherever you get your favorite books, you can follow me on LinkedIn, Muriel Wilkins and Instagram. Oachmurielwilkins before you go though, I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on coaching real leaders, it would mean the world to me if you could go to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to, subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them. Thanks to my producer Mary Dew, Sound Editor Nick Krinko, music Composer Brian Campbell, my Director of Operations Emily Sofa, and the entire team at hbr. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From HBR Podcast Cast Network, I'm Yairiel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.