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- [00:01]
Muriel Wilkins
Every great leader faces defining moments. If growth is on your horizon, Jobs Ohio is your partner in making it happen seamlessly. With workforce programs ready to build sites and a private funding model that eliminates surprises, Ohio is the strategic move you can trust, build, innovate, and grow with confidence. Get started@jobsohio.com I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Alex to protect his confidentiality.
- [01:12]
Alex
So I am probably what you call a seasoned consultant. I've spent most of my professional years as a advisor or in the consulting industry. I started out as a Big four consultant. I worked my way up to becoming a experienced senior manager, as they say. When I was looking at what the partner track looked like and what the managing director track looked like, I realized the amount of travel and the lifestyle was not what I wanted. So I got off the road and ended up doing more local consulting, which is really a lot more individual contributor type of roles.
- [01:50]
Muriel Wilkins
Alex spent time at a number of firms, eventually leaving consulting for a VP position at a small company. Some roles have felt like a better fit than others. Even in some consulting gigs that were meant to have an end date. Alex was asked to stay on because of the value he adds, and that has given him more of a sense of the kind of executive positions he would really enjoy.
- [02:12]
Alex
So that's another thing that I found as a theme in my career is that, you know, I'll land in a spot and then continue to add value where clients or whoever I'm working with will continue to extend me because I always find different opportunities to try to be a valuable contributor to the organization. From a recognition standpoint, it was important to me to be recognized for kind of what I brought to the table. And then also, you know, when I say season, like I'm in an age where it's like you start thinking like, oh my gosh, do I have to do this all over again to get back to someplace I've already been multiple times before?
- [02:46]
Muriel Wilkins
Alex is feeling like he still hasn't quite gotten to where he wants to be in his career. Despite having some good experiences in my.
- [02:56]
Alex
Head, I've always had this goal of being an executive in some kind of organization. There's something holding me back from. From being either seen or me being proactive in identifying the things that I need to work on to be viewed as that senior executive or that can operate at an executive level, whatever that looks like. Even when I was in a big consulting firm, right. There's something holding me, I feel like, from being viewed as a partner or leader in the firm to just being that senior manager in perpetuity. And that is a theme like I felt like has been even throughout my consulting career. And there's times where, like, well, maybe I was meant to be a lifelong consultant, right. And meet with clients, become their advisor, stay there a while, and then when the job is done, move on to the next one.
- [03:50]
Muriel Wilkins
Alex has recently taken on a new role that has some aspects that get him energized, but at a lower level than he hoped for. At this point in his career, he's interested in understanding what he might do differently to break out of the career rut that he feels he's in. I start the conversation by asking him what he thinks he needs to work on, including what feedback he's received in the past about his leadership potential.
- [04:19]
Alex
I would say the biggest one has been my ability to self advocate and be. I won't say brag, right. But just be a little bit more conscious of making sure people know the value that I'm bringing to the table and putting that in front of the people that make the decisions. Right. So complimentary to that is like networking and building relationships with the folks that can get me to that next level. There may have been some feedback in the past, and I think I've tried to work on it as best I can as far as sort of executive presence in meetings. And I've taken classes and have tried to work on how I present myself in meetings and on conference calls and talking to others and trying to maintain that energy. So I know that's like a hard skill that I've tried to work on, but probably the biggest one has been, who are you? What's your brand? And then how do I get in front of the people that can get you to where you want to go?
- [05:24]
Muriel Wilkins
Okay, so let me just make sure I capture that right, and play back the feedback that you've received in the past. So I sort of hear it in two different components. One is your ability to advocate for yourself in a way that demonstrates your value and makes you visible to the right folks who can then think about you when it comes to these more senior positions or who can advocate on your behalf around those positions or think about you for certain projects. Right. Which is oftentimes what we call kind of having a sponsor. So that's one bucket, the advocacy piece, and then the second bucket, you put it under the, you know, this executive presence things in terms of meetings and you've taken classes and tried to learn some of the skills all around that. And so when you hear this feedback, like even as I play it back to you now, how does it resonate.
- [06:26]
Alex
With you, the executive presence? I'll take the second one first. The executive presence does resonate with me in terms of consistency. I come across as very youthful a lot of times and that can be mistaken for just being real informal sometimes. And I would say immature per se, that I do know about myself. And then I fight it sometimes because I know that everything I've done is like, executive presence is really, for me, the way I've interpreted as being kind of, it's a reflection of who you are in front of people is just, it's really more of who you are. So if I'm presenting myself and I, you know, I feel pretty, I won't say I'll use the word authentic, but if I, if I know what my strengths are, then when I am in front of people, I would amplify what those are. So to me, that's executive presence. And when I'm in a room, I feel like I don't have a lot of issues and folks like recognizing me in a different way, but also listening to me. I still know there's some work from a consistency standpoint because there are times where I'm like, oh, I'll be in a room or I'll be with a person and I'll be in that mode of like, oh, I can see myself as a leader and having some kind of authority or being articulate in what I'm saying. But then it may drop off into something more informal where it's like, oh, I'm acting more like a kid when I probably should not be. Right. So for that it's more of a consistency thing from the self advocacy standpoint and personal brand. I think that's a big one for me because as a consultant, I'm like a jack of all trades and master of none. And when you are like that or you think that, it's really hard to pinpoint how do I describe what my brand is to people. When I feel like I can pick up any problem, figure it out, and help you get to a solution. I'm not a vertical guy. Like, I'm like, oh, I'm not an expert in like the consumer products and retail industry or an expert in healthcare, but I can do certain things. I just like to solve big problems and I like to organize chaos. And that's, that's what I do. That's kind of where I am. It's like, do I need to hone that in or does it matter of just finding the right person that understands where I'm coming from?
- [08:50]
Muriel Wilkins
So I, I appreciate you drilling down a little bit more because I think it's important to sort of understand for yourself how you're intern interpreting the feedback so that you can even decide which I'm going to ask you. Do you even want to address any of this feedback and do you think it correlates with your question around, is there something holding me back from being in some of these longer term senior positions? So when you hear this feedback and you've sort of interpreted in your own light because you don't have to, are they areas that you actually want to shine the light on and address?
- [09:26]
Alex
I do mainly the kind of what's next? Am I even trying to solve the right problem? And is being an executive or a VP or C level person something I really is? That's something that really I really want to do. Hey, Alex, what's the kind of role that energizes you and how can I articulate that to the folks that I continue to meet that either are gonna be my sponsor or a future client someday? Like, directionally, I think that's where I'm a little bit lost. Right?
- [10:05]
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. And so here's what's interesting to me, Alex, like, in order for you to be able to even tell that story to someone of hey, here's what energizes me and here's what bring to the table so that then, as you said, they can spot you and sponsor you and do all the things you have to be clearer about what that is. Yeah, right. And that's the difference, right? Like you can wait for somebody to just say, oh, this is what you bring to the table. Come on board, you know, and then you're reacting to it. Or you can say, no, I'm putting a stake in the ground. This is what it is. And it does feel aligned with my interests, my strengths, my experience, all the things. Right. In the way that you said for example, where you finally were at that point where you said it just felt like it fit. Okay, so I understand now that you're saying, hey, but it comes in the question of what's next. But I think in order to really be able to articulate what's next in the way that you just defined would be worthwhile to take it back to this original question of like, what is the value that you bring to the table? Okay.
- [11:21]
Alex
Yeah.
- [11:22]
Muriel Wilkins
And let me just say that I think the two areas that you articulated in terms of feedback, this executive presence piece and then this self advocacy piece, which is, you know, defining the, like, what is the value you bring to the table are actually quite related.
- [11:39]
Alex
Oh, okay.
- [11:41]
Muriel Wilkins
Let me tell you how, like, when you think about executive presence, it really is grounded in two things. It's grounded in how credible folks think you are and how relatable they think you are. Okay.
- [11:57]
Alex
Yeah.
- [11:58]
Muriel Wilkins
So it's not just, you know, am I being authentic? Authentic is important, but like, how are we defining authenticity here? Authenticity is the. Am I able to articulate what is authentic in terms of my strengths, in terms of what I bring to the table, in terms of my value? Is my value contribution actually aligned with who I am? Right. It's like it would be very inauthentic of me, Muriel, to say the value that I bring to the table is I'm going to help you win the basketball game. Okay. Completely inauthentic, straight out, lying, actually. Right. So that is not my value contribution. Okay. So that is the credibility aspect of it. And if you don't know what it is that you're bringing to the table, especially as the more senior you become, where it's not defined for you, the more folks are going to be at a loss around where you actually fit.
- [13:00]
Alex
Yeah, that makes, that makes sense.
- [13:02]
Muriel Wilkins
And then the relatability aspect is then, is the value that you bring to the table and the approach that you bring to the table, does it resonate with the context and the stakeholders that you're dealing with? Because everything is contextual.
- [13:20]
Alex
Right.
- [13:21]
Muriel Wilkins
My sense is, from what you're sharing is you've experienced that from a credibility.
- [13:27]
Alex
Standpoint, it's figuring out, okay, what am I credible in?
- [13:32]
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah, what are you credible in?
- [13:35]
Alex
And that's where I've been more of a, a chameleon. Right. Because you put me in a situation, I figure it out. Right. So I think that's. I think it's now trying to understand what it is that I really want. Right. Because usually I just go and find problems to Solve. But I'm at the point now where it's like, maybe I can be more selective now that I have a lot of tools in my tool belt, figuring out which tool I want to actually use and sharpen.
- [14:10]
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah. What I love is that when you said, yeah, what is my credibility? I think that is the question. And earlier when you talked about that, part of a challenge for you is that as a consultant, you're. You're a jack of all trades, master of none.
- [14:31]
Alex
Right, Right.
- [14:32]
Muriel Wilkins
And so tell me a little bit more about that. Right? Like what is that? How do you relate that to the value that you bring to the table?
- [14:42]
Alex
Let me think about that one. So as an example, I had a client that was in the middle of a merger and they had a responsibility to go out to a lot of different locations to help bring all of these locations onto the same, we'll say, the same technology platform. Right. And they weren't quite sure how long it would take to do it, what they needed to do to do it, and what activities needed to occur. Right. So they really needed sort of a roadmap and strategy for how that was to get done. I went in, they basically gave me the problem statement and I organized and put together kind of, here's the, here's the roadmap that you need, here's the time it can be done based on the people that you have, and here are the type of people that you need. So to me, the value I provided was giving them a clear line of sight for how this big, what seemed like this big monstrous project that needed to get done could get done. Right. And putting that on paper and making them see it and understand like, this is what it takes to get done. Because otherwise it would just stayed in the atmosphere in terms of ping ponging, discussions about, here's what we need, here's what we don't need. This is why it's not going to work. This is why it will work. The value I bring is I bring that sort of logical structuring and thinking to big ambiguous problems to create clarity. Right.
- [16:12]
Muriel Wilkins
Okay. So the value that you bring is you bring logical thinking to big, big problems to create clarity. So if I work with Alex, I'm going to go from chaos to clarity.
- [16:24]
Alex
That's right.
- [16:25]
Muriel Wilkins
Okay. Okay. That as a value proposition. How does that align with a senior leadership role?
- [16:36]
Alex
I would say this is where the disconnect is in my head. Right. Because when I look at senior leadership roles, they're responsible for a specific function. Right. Unless there was like a chief Strategy or chief innovation or some kind of innovation leader where you just get some big hairy thing like, oh, go explore gen AI and how it can solve X and Y problem. Right. Unless there was something like that in an organization, I feel like that's where something with my skill set or some of my skill set would thrive. Right. But not a traditional like CFO or you know, COO type of role where you're keeping the lights on, but probably more of a chief strategy or chief Development officer type of role. But even then, like, it's still a disconnect for me. Right. Because I like the execution part of it. So even though there's a strategy portion which I tend to like, I'm more, you know, a 20% strategy, 80% let's get things done type of guy. So that's why I've always leaned towards, oh, I should be looking at VP of operations or chief operating officer type of roles because 80% of what they do is execution and maybe there's 20% where they're thinking of the strategy for what should operations look like 5, 10 years, 15 years down the road.
- [18:01]
Muriel Wilkins
Okay, so you're making it very clear that that value proposition which you actually have clarity around is not necessari aligned, if I'm hearing you correctly, is not necessarily aligned with a traditional senior level role unless it had this like, specificity of, you know, strategy or operational strategy and execution.
- [18:24]
Alex
Right.
- [18:24]
Muriel Wilkins
In a development transformation type of, where there's an execution element to it as well. And you started talking a little bit about which was going to be my next question. Right. Like how aligned is that value proposition with, because you named it earlier, kind of authenticity, right. How aligned is it with your own interests and where you want to spend your time and where you see yourself and the skills that you bring to bear rather than what you think you should be doing.
- [18:53]
Alex
Yeah, I like to solve problems and I also like to learn different things. Right. So this part we haven't talked about is like I'm always, I'm intellectually curious, right? So that's what makes problems to me exciting if there are especially problems with that I have no experience in. So I like to be able to learn new things as I'm solving problems because I like to bring my perspective, but also as I'm figuring that problem out. I immerse myself in the industry. I immerse myself in the processes. I immerse myself in understanding how, you know, basically how money is being made, like everything you need to know. I try to like immerse myself in that in that business. So that I do like.
- [19:39]
Muriel Wilkins
What does the future hold for business? Can someone invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one platform. With real time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning for free at netsuite.com coachingreal leaders that's netsuite.com coachingrealeaders I've got some big news to share. I've got a new book coming out. Leadership Unblocked is launching this October with HBR Press and I can't wait for you to read it. It's filled with insights from my years of coaching executives and a roadmap to help you break free from the mindsets that hold you back from being the leader you want to be. You can pre order it now. Just search for Leadership Unblocked wherever you order your favorite books and you'll be among the first to receive a copy. While Alex began the conversation focused on executive presence, we've narrowed in on the question of his personal and professional brand. Alex feels like there's still something he's chasing in his career and has looked back to determine patterns and to identify potential gaps. It can be so easy to focus on what you don't have when when it comes to the checklist for leadership, but I wanted to start with defining what he does have, focusing on his strengths, and have him really spell those out. When taking stock of your career history, it can help to start by framing what value you do add, even if that is different from the skills you think you might need. Then take a look at how your strengths align with your interests and opportunities. And if something still doesn't feel right, ask yourself where the disconnect might be. That's what I explored next with Alex. So it feels like there is actually quite close alignment between what you want for yourself and what you have defined as your value proposition. It feels like there's not, you know, there's kind of midway alignment between what you bring to the table and what necessity necessarily fits in that senior leadership bucket. Right, Right. And so where else do you think there might be a disconnect, if any?
- [22:20]
Alex
I think that, I mean, I think the disconnect is probably between what I think I want and like what I really love doing. Does that make sense?
- [22:32]
Muriel Wilkins
Like, that makes a lot of sense, but I think it makes A lot of sense. Tell me a little more.
- [22:36]
Alex
So some of the things I described are also what I like are things that a business owner, a small business owner would go through. Not necessarily that executive and a Fortune X company, but maybe even an executive in a company that's mid market or just a small business. I won't say executive, but let's say a leader or small business owner or somebody that's running a small business. Right. So, you know, I learned a lot from all the experiences that I've, I've had. And when I was a leader in a small chemicals company, I found that I liked that because I was involved in every aspect of the operation. Right. I wasn't siloed in like hr. I wasn't siloed in customer service. I got to run and see and help make improvements or try to make improvements across all aspects of the organization. And I had the autonomy and authority to do that. Well, not authority, I would say I had the autonomy to make recommendations, but I like being able to do that because there are problems in every single area that had improvement opportunities. So that to me wasn't off the table either. But that's a different ask than just the traditional applying for a job online for a X level position or using a headhunter. So it's an avenue that I haven't really explored. But I've always kind of had this, oh, well, maybe because of what I like doing and because I like every aspect of business and operations and I like to solve big problems that are very ambiguous. Like small businesses are that. Right. And so maybe that's an avenue.
- [24:20]
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah. I mean, so when you say what I think I want, what is it that you think you want?
- [24:27]
Alex
You know, I try to, without giving you an absolute answer. Right. I just, I want to do the things that energize me or have a job that energizes me, work with people I like and be able to learn new things along the way. Right. Try to become, you know, intelligent about something new while I'm doing it. So I know the characteristics. I think maybe my problem is I've been trying to identify what that nirvana is. That is all those things. And maybe that's not because I'm talking to you and thinking about articulating like, okay, what's my brand? It's like, these are the things that I'm looking for in Ideal Job. And then put it out to universe or whoever my people are and say, what kind of things do you think of? When I describe kind of this is what I'M looking for.
- [25:18]
Muriel Wilkins
That's what you currently do or that's what you think you should do?
- [25:20]
Alex
No, that's what I think I should do. That's what I'm not doing. I'm, I'm not doing that. I'm doing the traditional throw my resume into the interweb sphere and see if it sticks.
- [25:30]
Muriel Wilkins
If it sticks.
- [25:31]
Alex
Yeah. Right, yeah. And it hasn't been sticking, so I think.
- [25:34]
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah. And I'm going to add another element. And again, just, you know, tell me if I'm off here, not only are you throwing out in the interwebs and hoping that, you know, it sticks, you're also like sort of crossing your fingers and hoping that it sticks with some senior level leadership role.
- [25:50]
Alex
Yeah. You hit it nail on the head.
- [25:53]
Muriel Wilkins
And the disconnect, I think, you know, I'm using the word disconnect because it's like, it's not that there's something wrong with what you're presenting as your value proposition. It's more, is it a value proposition that fits in the puzzle piece of what a senior leadership role requires in a certain context? Which is why I think you saw the difference like, oh, maybe if it's in a smaller company where all hands on deck, you've got to roll up your sleeves, you, you have to be able to like, work in all different areas, then I can get all the things that I'm looking for and they leverage my strengths.
- [26:38]
Alex
Yeah.
- [26:38]
Muriel Wilkins
But if I'm in a more, you know, scaled up senior leadership role, there's a bit of a disconnect. And what I hear, the disconnect, Alex, is much of what you have described in terms of the strengths that you bring to bear. And what you like to immerse yourself in is doing. It's the execution, it is the rolling your sleeves up.
- [27:01]
Alex
Yeah.
- [27:02]
Muriel Wilkins
And again, depending on the scale. Right. I mean, you see, this is not me making this up. Like you read any literature, leadership book, it's like you've got to be able to kind of let go of the doing. Right. You're doing things through other people and you are. It's not that you don't do anything, but it is more of the strategic focus and leading and less on the, the day to day execution. Digging into the problem, pulling it apart, learning it, you know, from the ground up. You know, there's nothing wrong with that either. I think the question that is for you is, is what you are saying you want in terms of a senior leadership role, actually what you want.
- [27:50]
Alex
As I was listening, I started to think a little bit right about the doing part. And when I was part of a big firm, that was probably the thing that folks called out as my strength. Being able to execute projects. And not only being able to execute projects, but also being able to coach and manage my staff. So as part of the big firm model and the structure, I was able to lead a team and manage a team. And that's a part that I haven't had in a very long time when ever since I left because again, I told you, I've been in a lot of individual contributor roles where I've been advisory more so than anything, but never really managed a team. And that's how I ended up just kind of doubling down on doing, doing, doing. Right. And I've never been able to get out of that. So I think your point is definitely eye opening to me because that's what I've done as an individual contributor. It's like I've always been, you know, it's either influencing to get things done or I have to do it because I've never had a team. And that's the one thing that I've missed ever since I kind of left that environment. But, but that also may be the thing that's, you know, to your point, it's, it's holding me back too because if I describe my resume to you, that's what it's going to say. Since I left, it's like, oh, you've been an individual contributor. All you've been doing is kind of doing, doing, doing for the clients and the executives that you worked with. So how's that going to sell me that you're ready to be a leader in our organization? And that's, I mean, you say disconnect. That's the point of disconnect. That's like a big, it's like Grand Canyon kind of situation.
- [29:39]
Muriel Wilkins
Grand Canyon situation, you know, I love it. Yeah, right. And I think there's two questions coming out of that because there's nothing wrong with being an individual contributor. You know, I know people who've been like, you know, forget this management to VP to C suite, like, I don't want all like, let me be a career individual contributor. And they forge their path to be that. And there are trade offs, but they are willing to make the trade off because they have identified that that's what they want. And then there are others who say no, like I want to be on that career track, which is expanding responsibilities. You know, think about the sort of traditional leadership pipeline stuff. Ye, you Go from individual contributor to managing others to managing managers of others to, you know, being an enter a functional leader to an enterprise leader. There's no shame in either game, but you are better off deciding which one you want to play so that you can align yourself in terms of experiences and positions in a way that supports that track.
- [30:55]
Alex
Yeah.
- [30:55]
Muriel Wilkins
You know.
- [30:56]
Alex
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, if you circle back to the beginning of our conversation as we started talking, I would say that I was more right or wrong, in love with the shine of the recognition piece of, like, going up the path that you just described. Right. Because that's a. That's a pretty fairly, like, explainable piece of your career progression. And this is where I am, and I'm this whatever, whatever at an organization versus what I really am from a. This is what I like to do, and this is what energizes me. So I think I was more caught up in the. This is what I think my past should be. But everything that I've done doesn't really align with that. Right. It's more, this is who I am. Like, I'm a doer. You throw me in any situation, I'll figure it out and get it done for you. End of story.
- [31:54]
Muriel Wilkins
End of story. Right. End of story. Let me ask you a question, Alex. If you only had to explain it to yourself, right? Let's imagine that if you only had to explain your career story and where you are to yourself, what would that sound like? Because you just shared like, oh, it sounds very logical if I explain it to other that I follow this, like, upward mobility career track and it makes sense. Okay. Yeah, but if nobody was watching, right? And we don't know if they are, you know, but if nobody was watching, if you only had to explain it to yourself, what does the current career story sound like?
- [32:40]
Alex
If I had to explain it to myself, I would say, you know, Alex, you help business leaders get things done. And that's my only sentence, honestly. Like, and if somebody wants to ask me about what that means and I can give examples, and then whether it sticks or not, then that's kind of how it is. But, you know, I can give a number of examples where I've helped organizations and I've helped leaders get from point A to point B successfully. And that's pretty much it. I'm pretty simple like that. So that's how I would describe it to myself and I would hope myself understood that and ask the right questions to say more.
- [33:22]
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah. And so what would hold you back from explaining it that way to Others.
- [33:27]
Alex
Oh, man, that's deep. The whole fear of judgment thing. I don't know. I think. Yeah. I mean, that's probably it. It's like, oh, sometimes I feel like maybe that would not be enough for other people, but I feel like that's my own issue. Right. Cause it should be enough for me. And I think that's. When I say it to myself, it's enough for me because I know what that means to me. Right. And then just finding a way to articulate that to someone else, I mean, that's something I could work on.
- [33:57]
Muriel Wilkins
Unlike any class book or podcast, Strawberry Me personal coaching gives you something unique. A professional partner who's 100% focused on your success. It's not about advice. Your coach will ask the right questions, helping you uncover hidden strengths, break through obstacles, and move forward with confidence. If you're ready to unlock your full potential, Visit Strawberry Me HBR for a $50 credit. That's Strawberry Me HBR. We started this conversation with Alex questioning his executive presence. How do I change the way I present myself to people to get to the executive level? But in chipping away at that, he came to define not just his strengths as a leader, but also what he actually enjoys doing. This is an important point. For leaders across. Across industries and stages of their career. There is more than one way to lead, more than one way to manage, and more than one way to be an executive. The chasm between what seems like a good title or a good salary and what we actually want to be doing can be so wide for so many of us. And honestly, there is more likely to be a disconnect in those situations because there isn't alignment between what we really want and what we think we should want for our career. Now that Alex has begun to define his personal brand, it's time to think about what that means for him in terms of what's next. Look, I. And I'm taking a deep breath as I say this, right? I think you're at this crossroads. The way that I'm experiencing you right now is I feel like you're at this crossroads around, like, what's more important? Is it how it feels and looks to me or how it feels and looks to others? And what am I going to anchor myself around? Okay, so that's number one. I think number two is there's a difference between being in this place of, like, proving your worth, which I'm imagining you. You know, you talked about the Grand Canyon, which I've never been, by the way, but I can imagine what it's like, you can imagine I'm imagining it being a climb, you know, of proving the worth, which is why you're tired, versus the path of I have worth. This is my worth. The worth is I help business leaders get from point A to point Z. Right. I help business leaders go from chaos to clarity. I help business leaders get results, the results that they want. That is my worth. Would you like it or would you not? Which is. Tell me, when I give you both of those paths, what's the difference between the two for you?
- [36:57]
Alex
The difference for me is. I wish I could say it like you said it, because I feel like I would have a lot more confidence when I say it. But the second one feels more me. Right. And it's not something that leaves me with a, oh, I have to figure out what to say about that, like, why I'm saying it. Whereas the first path of. Kind of the should path, I'll call it, I feel like I have to do a lot more thinking of why I have to justify that. But saying that I'm the person that helps business leaders get from A to Z. If you give me a problem, throw it at me and I'll figure it out for you. That I have a high level of confidence in because I've done it before. Right. And that to me, feels more. That feels more authentic.
- [37:42]
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah.
- [37:43]
Alex
Right. And I can build off of that. I know I have, like a. A litany of experiences I can do to back that up. Whereas the other. The Grand Canyon version. That one. That one, yeah. That's good. That takes a lot of dancing.
- [37:57]
Muriel Wilkins
Takes a lot of dancing.
- [37:58]
Alex
Right.
- [37:59]
Muriel Wilkins
You're tired of dancing.
- [38:00]
Alex
I am.
- [38:01]
Muriel Wilkins
You know, it's. It. We're. If we go back to the definition of executive presence and one part of the equation is the credibility piece. What I'm hearing you say is when you go with the version of I help business leaders get results, and you said you can say it with confidence because you've done it. It's because it's credible. Not only before. You make it credible to others, it's credible to you. You have conviction around it. Right. And what does credible mean? It's a belief in it. So you believe in yourself around this value. The dancing part, the Grand Canyon part, is when you are, you know, putting it out there that you can deliver on something, but you actually aren't sure if you can. You don't have conviction. You aren't quite yet in a place where you believe that you want to. So never mind the skill. Like do you even want to?
- [38:57]
Alex
Right.
- [38:58]
Muriel Wilkins
It's very hard to be seen by others as credible in anything. If we don't believe that we are, that it can happen for a little bit. Right. They give you hope.
- [39:14]
Alex
I've been living on hope.
- [39:15]
Muriel Wilkins
Right. But over the long haul, you've got, you've got to. That's the self conviction. That's what self confidence is. And so from that standpoint, Right. So like, how does what we've just talked about inform you in terms of some of the initial question you came with, which is, you know, what is holding me back from being seen in these longer term senior leadership roles?
- [39:41]
Alex
Yeah, it's helped me get clear on the statements to start out with, I would say. So I think I've had this limiting belief where saying, oh, I help business leaders get things done. I had a summoning belief, like, that's not enough. Right. Because it's easy to say, oh, you know, I'm a, I use healthcare, for example. You know, I'm a, I'm a neurosurgeon, I'm an orthopedic surgeon. People know exactly what you do. But for me to say like, oh, I help business leaders get things done, it's like, okay, let's say more. And I felt like I should have a statement where people would know exactly what you do and what you're about. But then I think I am talking to you, like, I'm going to let that go, right. Because it is enough to say that. Because I can say more about it without having to do more work to think about, you know, why it is the way it is. Right. I think that's what I've been stuck in, right? To say, like, oh, what do you do? Like, what do you do, Alex? You're, you're a management consultant. What is that? I was like, well, let me, let me describe this to you. Like, you know, but now I can say with confidence that I help, you know, executives really get their most strategic projects done.
- [40:58]
Muriel Wilkins
And as a result of that, as.
- [41:00]
Alex
A result of that, I'm drawing a blank. As a result of that, I'm like feeling wise. It's enough for me. It grounds me in something to build off of as I start to put pen to paper. And depending on the audience that I'm talking to.
- [41:15]
Muriel Wilkins
That's amazing. I think you have the starting piece. What I would encourage you to do as a next step is kind of think about those different audiences, right? Where you have to potentially answer that question, or even better yet, not answer the question. Just Start with that. Because now we get into the field of the self advocating. Right. Self advocating is actually just voicing what it is that you do or who you are. Okay. And the way that you then make it relevant for the other. It's not about being chameleon. Like, it's making it relevant. The value that you bring to the table is driving to the. So what for them, why is that important to them? What's the implication? If you were talking to me and you say I help business get results and you want to drive the implication for me, it could be, you know, I hope executives like you, Muriel, get to results. And guess what? Like, I make them sleep better at night because they don't have to worry about all the management of their teams, et cetera. And I'd be like, oh, my gosh, what? Give me your number. Right. But for somebody else, it might be something different. Doesn't change the value that you bring. It's the relevancy that you then have to figure out. How do you make your value relevant to others? And for some it will be, and for some it won't. And that's okay.
- [42:45]
Alex
No, that makes. That makes complete sense. I like that and I like the relevancy piece because I do think that's where I need some work. How's what I bring to the table relevant to the issues or problems that you, senior leader, are trying to solve?
- [43:03]
Muriel Wilkins
That's right. And how do you think you can figure that out?
- [43:06]
Alex
I think it comes with. If I start with, this is who I am and this is my brand statement, if you will, I think it's naturally starts the conversation with whoever I'm talking to that lends them to describe kind of what their problems are. Right. And then from a relevancy standpoint, being able to pull from my experiences to tell a story or tell a past experience I had that applies to that particular issue or problem they're trying to solve. Yeah. But like, you know, if I would just say that to you without knowing, you know, kind of about your business and the issues that you have, I'd just be taking a shot in the dark. So it's going to require a little bit of work to figure that out.
- [43:51]
Muriel Wilkins
Sure. I mean, you might be. And I will offer Alex that you have a lot of experience. So over your years of experience, I suspect that there's some pattern recognition of what some of the common problems are. Right. We all think we're special and we're the only ones to have the same business problem. But you probably are like, you're not that special. Right. Like, here are the four or five that I see. And so, yes, there's one approach which is let me not kind of shoot in the dark and let me hear what their problems are and then say, oh, by the. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where I can help. Another approach, right. To put in your arsenal, to put in your range is to say, I help business leaders do X, Y, Z. And here's how I've seen this play out. You know, I've been able to get them the now react. Do you resonate with any of those problems? What problems are you facing? And I think that's the self advocacy piece. It's being able to tell your story without fear of, oh, it's, I'm gonna miss.
- [44:57]
Alex
Yeah, that's good as well. Cause that also speaks to the like kind of being viewed as a authority or leader. Right. Just being more proactive in the demonstrating than my relevance. Rather than waiting.
- [45:11]
Muriel Wilkins
Rather than waiting.
- [45:12]
Alex
Then it goes back into doing again. Right. Like it's like, oh, you're just waiting for the order to just do things right. And I'm trying to get out of, kind of get out of that.
- [45:20]
Muriel Wilkins
Exactly. So it's a. Both, it's, it's doing both. It's not one or the other. It's not swinging the pendulum, you know, from one side. Like, I'm not going to say anything, I'm not going to say anything to the other side, like, well, let me just tell you exactly what your problem is. Right. Like it's figuring out but always being ready with, yeah, here's my story. Because you do have a story and you do have value. And as you've put it, it is good enough. Right? Yeah, there is worthiness there.
- [45:48]
Alex
Yeah. I think that's, it's really helped me to understand what I'm describing is good enough and that I can use it to be kind of my own advocate and have more confidence in talking to whatever the audience is or whoever it is and have to be okay with, hey, you know, it may be good enough for this person, but it may not be good enough for that person. Because it has been, honestly, it's, it's, you know, I have been able to find roles where that has been good enough. I may not have articulated that way, but I know that I can do it. So I know it's out there. So I appreciate that.
- [46:21]
Muriel Wilkins
Right. But if you're not able to articulate it, you'll never, you won't ever know what the difference was. Okay.
- [46:27]
Alex
All right.
- [46:28]
Muriel Wilkins
Okay. So tell me how you feel now versus how we started the conversation.
- [46:34]
Alex
Honestly, I feel a lot clearer. At the beginning, I was a little all over the place, but now I have a definite path that I'm confident in, and it's bringing it all together and just being able to kind of hone those value proposition statements and then even test it out on the folks that I'm around. Right. And use it in my current environment as well as, you know, outside of it, as I try to explore kind of how this sticks in the. In the marketplace. That's right. You know, it helps me also. It helps me be okay kind of with where I am, because now I have the luxury of being in a position where now I have, you know, I have the time to really focus on that and get it even more clear for the next, you know, the rest of my career. Right. Because I really don't want to stop consulting. People have this idea of retirement, but, you know, I could provide. I can provide advice all day long. So my brain works. As long as my brain works, I'm good.
- [47:37]
Muriel Wilkins
Yep, yep. And listen, being okay is priceless. So.
- [47:42]
Alex
Yeah, no, I'm glad you were helping to get there.
- [47:44]
Muriel Wilkins
Good. Well, thank you, Alex. I appreciate it.
- [47:46]
Alex
Yeah, same.
- [47:50]
Muriel Wilkins
As an executive coach, leadership presence is a topic that comes up a lot and is vital for those looking to advance professionally. As I said, leadership presence really breaks down to two essential. Credibility and relatability. In the case of Alex, being able to define what makes him credible and relatable helped him in more than just understanding how he was presenting himself. It opened the door to a larger conversation about what he really wants, what goal he's really aiming for, and what his brand is and could be. The unblock for Alex was valuing his own brand. Without that, there is no way he can communicate and demonstrate it with conviction and confidence. Only when you take hold of your own leadership story can you truly be an effective advocate for yourself and your career. That's it for this episode of coaching real leaders. Next time. I was firing all cylinders, and I had these great superpowers and, you know, getting great recognition. And I don't feel like I have those superpowers anymore. And I like, I'm wondering if this is a horrible thing to say, but am I past my peak? Did I expend all my superpowers Am I just done? If you'd like to join my community for exclusive live discussions, apply to be on the show or sign up for email updates, head over to murielwilkins.com youm can also pre order my new book Leadership Unblocked. Wherever you get your favorite books, you can follow me on LinkedIn, Muriel Wilkins and Instagram oachmurielwilkins before before you go though, I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on coaching real leaders, it would mean the world to me if you could go to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to, subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them. Thanks to my producer Mary Dew, Sound Editor Nick Krinko, Music composer Brian Campbell, my Director of Operations Emily Sofa, and the entire team at hbr. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From HBR Podcast Network, I'm Yuriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well. What does the future hold for business? Can someone invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one Cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one platform. With real time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com coachingrealeaders that's netsuite.com coachingreaceaders.