How Do I Find Fulfillment In My Leadership Role?

Summary

Coaching Real Leaders

Host: Muriel Wilkins (Harvard Business Review)
Episode: How Do I Find Fulfillment In My Leadership Role?
Date: May 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a coaching conversation between executive coach Muriel Wilkins and “Susan” (not her real name), a high-performing leader who recently transitioned from a fulfilling career in public service to a private sector C-suite role. Despite enjoying financial stability and good colleagues, Susan struggles with a sense of unfulfillment and questions whether—and how—she can find purpose in her new environment. Together, they explore the sources of her dissatisfaction, the quest for meaning, and practical approaches to navigating misalignment between personal values and organizational priorities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Susan’s Career Transition and Challenge

• Background: Susan loved her public service role, finding deep meaning in its mission, healthy culture, and positive team dynamics.
• The Shift: She accepted a private sector opportunity for both financial reasons and new challenges, only to discover that the day-to-day work is driven by commercial bottom lines and lacks the purpose-driven impact she values.
• Dissonance:

  “It was an opportunity for me to be challenged. It feels like the left hand and the right hand didn’t really meet… the new position offers excellent compensation, but for me, it really lacks that deeper sense of purpose and the public impact that previously motivated me.” —Susan [03:02]

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2. Internal Struggles: Motivation, Identity, and Fulfillment

• Difficulty Adjusting: Susan feels her skills and strategic mind are underutilized, and the team’s focus on numbers and sales feels alienating.

• The Question of ‘Filling the Cup’:

  “The work itself just doesn’t fill my cup… how do I stay engaged and effective in a space that doesn’t align with my deeper motivations while externally balancing this need for financial stability?” —Susan [03:47]

• Feeling Stuck: She notices her boss retains strategic work; growth opportunities seem closed given low turnover and leaders' reluctance to move on, making her wonder about her value and future.

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3. Defining Purpose and Alignment

• Core Value Identification: Muriel helps Susan articulate her “North Star”—her desire to advocate for her profession and deliver value beyond financial metrics.

  “What fills my cup is… at the end of the day, I know that I can go to bed knowing that my value system was in line with the profession that I’m defending, and others are benefiting from my knowledge, from my advocacy, because they know that I’m in their corner.” —Susan [06:59]

• Misaligned Environment: While Susan is clear on her own purpose, her new environment is not, making her question whether she needs others to share her North Star. She acknowledges she doesn’t—but the dissonance is still noisy and draining.

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4. Navigating Seasons of Misalignment

• Temporal Perspective: Susan recognizes she’s not in this role forever, but wants to maximize her time through professional growth and preparation for the future.

• Exit Versus Maximization: Muriel frames two paths:

  1. Wait and hope conditions change.
  2. Proactively explore what can be made meaningful now, regardless of external factors.

  “Do you wait till the sun comes out again for it to be fun or meaningful, or do you say… I am going to figure out, how can I still have fun and make it meaningful for me regardless of the weather outside?” —Muriel [19:32]

• Control and Agency: Susan is encouraged to focus on what’s in her control, asserting,

  “I don’t want to just run away from a problem… I’m very convinced that I was put here for a reason… I want to challenge myself… maximize the time I’m here.” —Susan [21:22]

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5. Acceptance Without Complacency

• Meaning Isn’t Handed Over: Muriel distinguishes between acceptance and passivity—acceptance is seeing things as they are, not as you wish, and then choosing how to respond.

• Creating vs. Finding Meaning:

  “There’s a huge difference in how you experience your career if your approach is to find meaning versus seeing meaning as something to create.” —Muriel [65:44]

• Learning to Embrace Trade-Offs: Susan realizes former roles aligned by luck/planning, but this season is about crafting meaning herself, not waiting for it.

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6. Reframing Mindset and Daily Practice

• Integration of Mindset, Actions, and Energy: Muriel notes Susan’s mindset, actions, and body language are out of sync—she’s “physically” eye rolling at meetings, while her mind says to maximize the opportunity, and actions focus on professional development.

  “We need the mindset and the actions and the physical part all working together. Because right now they’re working all in different ways.” —Muriel [42:31]

• Synergistic Action: Susan is tasked to integrate her intention, presence, and actions, especially in routine meetings she finds draining.

  “What would it look like if all three of those things were operating regardless of what’s happening in this company?” —Muriel [43:39] “[It would be] so synergistic and lovely… not taking everything so personally… I wouldn’t be so cynical… I think that would be the first change.” —Susan [44:17]

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7. Strategy for Moving Forward

• Self Advocacy as a First Step:

  “There’s the whole cliche, you can’t fill another person’s cup unless you fill your own. So your cup is not filled, and yet you’re trying to fill others.” —Muriel [41:04]

• Making Actions Meaningful: Muriel suggests Susan add meaning to every action she takes, e.g., by asking how each task, meeting, or development opportunity can be made meaningful in light of her purposes (advocacy and financial provision).

  “For each action item, I want you to answer the question, how do I make this action meaningful for me?” —Muriel [58:47]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Acceptance and Change:

  “Look, the business isn’t going to change. This is how it functions. And maybe I just got a taste of something that’s just not my cup of tea, and that’s okay.” —Susan [47:01]

• Reframing the Season:

  “Acceptance doesn’t have to have a negative connotation… you have to make the most of what you have in your control.” —Susan [48:29]

• On Leadership Mindset:

  “What’s the energy that you’re giving? This environment that was here before you walked in, as I said, and will be there after you leave… in what way are you contributing to how you are experiencing this season?” —Muriel [37:25]

• The ‘Crayons’ Analogy:

  “It was like you opened… the box of crayons and all the colors that I wanted are in the crayon. And now it’s like, oh, I got the box and I still want a color, but it’s not the shades. Now I got to go look for them or I got to blend some of these colors to get the right shade.” —Muriel [57:13]

• Moving from Frustration to Agency:

  “How do we get all of these pieces moving in the same direction… before I start saying, look, yes, it fills my cup to help my colleagues, but I need to work on me a little bit.” —Susan [62:44]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Susan’s background and dilemma – [02:23]
• Defining “filling the cup” & loss of purpose – [03:47 - 08:14]
• Need for alignment and advocacy – [09:39 - 10:07]
• Paths forward: waiting vs. creating meaning now – [18:19 - 22:30]
• Mindset problems, emotional integration, and acceptance – [28:07 - 36:09]
• Meaning and presence in challenging environments – [38:13 - 41:11]
• Strategies for integrating mindset, action, and energy – [42:31 - 44:17]
• Embracing seasonal trade-offs and making meaning – [48:01 - 58:47]
• Summing up the shift in frame and approach – [62:44 - 65:44]

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Actionable Takeaways

• Integrate Mindset, Action, and Presence: Ensure your thinking, actions, and physical presence are aligned with your purpose, especially during times of misalignment with your environment.
• Create—Don’t Wait for—Meaning: Instead of searching for elusive meaning, actively imbue your daily work and routine with intentionality and connection to your values.
• Self-Advocacy Comes First: Before supporting others, stabilize yourself; fill your own cup so that you have the energy and clarity to help colleagues authentically and sustainably.
• Accept and Advocate Simultaneously: Acceptance of current realities is not complacency—it’s the foundation for grounded, meaningful action and sustained leadership.
• Practice Presence in the Now: Anchor actions and mindset to your present context, not in nostalgia for the past or wishful thinking for the future.

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Conclusion

This episode provides an authentic look at what happens when a leader’s values and workplace culture fall out of alignment. Muriel and Susan demonstrate that fulfillment isn’t about waiting for the right environment, but about accepting the present, integrating your values into daily actions, and reframing challenges as opportunities for personal and professional growth. Listeners are reminded to prioritize self-advocacy, create their own meaning, and to blend patience with proactive presence as they navigate their own leadership seasons.

Transcript

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[A]

I'm executive coach Muriel Wilkins and this is coaching real leaders. I've spent over 20 years working with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump so, so they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today I'm coaching someone we'll call Susan to protect her confidentiality. She's had a long career in public service that she's loved. But she recently decided to explore her options. And given some of the changes that were happening in her sector and where she is in her own life, public

[B]

service was where I thought I was going to be for long term. I was like, you know, let's ride this out as long as we can. And I, and I loved it. It was crazy, crazy work. But it made all the difference to work for such an incredible boss, a great team. We had a really, really healthy office culture. Which was really unique. And so when this job came through, I said, you know what? Maybe I should just start practicing interviewing again. Go through the motions, see what's out there.

[A]

Susan unexpectedly got an offer quicker than she anticipated. In the private sector, it was really

[B]

hard to pass up financially, especially with the life stage that we're in. And it was an opportunity for me to be challenged. It feels like the left hand and the right hand didn't really meet right. Like what I experienced in the interviews. See, it seemed good on paper, I guess, is a better way to say, and then, you know, being in this position now, the new position offers excellent compensation, but for me, it really lacks that deeper sense of purpose and the public impact that previously motivated me.

[A]

Susan reached out because she's having a bit of buyer's remorse, but wants to find a way to stay motivated and keep learning. I started by asking more specifically about how she was feeling in the new position.

[B]

It has its good days, and it has its days where I'm just frustrated. The commercial bottom line really drives most of the work that we do. And I found it very difficult to connect with that as, like, a source of professional fulfillment. You know, I work with very talented colleagues, good people around me, but the work itself just doesn't fill my cup. And so internally, I'm grappling with the questions of, you know, how do I stay engaged and effective in a space that doesn't align with my deeper motivations while sort of externally balancing this need for financial stability? You know, I really want to be intentional with my time here rather than just wait it out. And so I've sort of done a lot of reading, done a lot of strategic thinking. Right. Like, all the strategic planning skills that I use for work, I was like, let me just apply it to myself and try and find ways that I would be challenged professionally. And I'm just not. You know, it's great for the time and the season that we're in, especially for our family, and I'm very grateful for that. But I guess I could say money doesn't necessarily buy me happiness when it comes to my professional fulfillment.

[A]

So what do you want the outcome to be?

[B]

I think my brain goes in a few different directions. And maybe I should ask you that as a follow up of, is that short term? Is it in this position, or are you thinking, like, long term?

[A]

It's up to you. When you think about your right now, like, even in our conversation, what outcome are you looking to drive to?

[B]

I think I've gotten to a point mentally Where I sort of come to grips that I'm going to ride this out and I'm going to ride it out. I don't want to say indefinitely because I need an end game, because I'm not sure I will last that long indefinitely. In this role, for me, I like to be challenged professionally. I want to know that this work will make an impact. I've sort of positioned myself mentally to think about, okay, how can I maximize my professional development here in this role? I say, okay, well, this new place has the tools for me or the start of tools, along with other pieces, right? Like great books and having professional development tools to be able to say, how can I be the best version of myself professionally? So that when I'm ready to pivot and go into, you know, another organization that aligns more with my cup being filled for our industry, that I am ready to rock and give the best version of myself? So I would say that would probably be the most ideal outcome is like, how can I prepare myself to be able to say, all right, I took another level. I was able to really hone my professional development skills in the C suite. How can I grab onto another position in another organization that I can give back better?

[A]

Okay, so I've heard you use the term a few times around your cup being filled or the work doesn't fill my cup is, I think, what you said the first time when you mentioned it. So what does that even mean for you? Like, what does it look like for your cup to be full?

[B]

For me, my cup being filled is that knowing there's not a commercial bottom line necessarily. I'm not naive to the fact that every business has to be run like a business. I'm fully aware of that. Where I'm at now, really, that commercial bottom line just. It sits poorly with me. And that might just be, you know, the stigma that comes around companies like that. But it just. To me, it feels like at the end of the day, everyone just cares about the numbers. And for me, that doesn't fill my cup. And for me, what fills my cup is do I know? At the end of the day, even though we might not always see eye to eye on some of the topics that we're talking about, at the end of the day, I know that I can go to bed knowing that my value system was in line with the profession that I'm defending, and others are benefiting from my knowledge, from my advocacy, because they know that I'm in their corner. And, you know, look, I've. I tried to pitch it for myself, as what if I was giving advice to somebody else? But it just. It still is just not. It's not there for me. It just doesn't click.

[A]

What would make it click?

[B]

Probably less focus on not. You know, every quarter or every other week, we're having a call and saying, this is where our numbers are at. And it's like, my goodness, yes, this is good. I'm glad our numbers are turning out good. I just don't want that to be the crux of every conversation. Okay.

[A]

Because if it becomes the crux of every conversation, what happens to you?

[B]

It just makes me feel like a car salesman, and it's just, you know, it gets intertwined in every conversation, and it's not something I'm used to. I know some people are just more cut out for it than I am, and that's okay. They tolerate it more than I do. Maybe I'll become more calloused as the years go by.

[A]

I don't know. I mean, it's interesting to me. Right. Because, you know, if I may, what I'm hearing from you, and I'm just gonna tell you, test it out. You can tell me if this is resonating with you or not, but what I'm hearing from you is you have a clear sense of. Very clear through line around what makes work meaningful for you. Right. Which is this. You've repeated it a few times, kind of making sure that what you're doing in some way advocates positively for the profession, gives back to the profession. And that is kind of, dare I say, cliche, North Star, right?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And you came from an environment where everyone had the same North Star, it sounds like, and now you're in an environment where it doesn't feel like that's everybody's North Star. It feels like the North Star here for everybody else is the bottom line. That's what it feels like. Right. Because of the conversations you hear, because of what's being talked about. So that's what it feels like. We don't really know, but that's what it feels like. Okay.

[B]

Correct. Yeah.

[A]

And I think the question that I have is, do you need everybody else's North Star to be the same as yours in order to be able to hold onto yours?

[B]

Certainly not. No, not at all. But that is the noise, and that is the focus of nearly every conversation that I have in the workplace.

[A]

And so in what way do you stay anchored in, again, this very strong through line of a purpose in spite of the noise?

[B]

I think for me, what keeps me sort of grounded in that space or, you know, using the term that you used. It's just knowing that this is not long term, this is short term. And what can I do to prepare myself to go back into the profession in a different capacity? To say, okay, let me sharpen my tools while I'm here. Let me learn the business, let me learn some new skills that I didn't have before so that when I'm ready to pivot, I come out more valuable for the industry and the profession. So that I'm not just spinning my wheels here and complaining. Cause that's, that's just a waste of time for me, me. And I need to be able to say, okay, here's my game plan. If I'm looking for a VP role after I pivot out of this, you know, first level C suite position, how can I better myself during the time that I'm here to be more value added when I, when I leave?

[A]

All right, on the one hand you have kind of like an exit plan, right? Like I'm going to use this to enable my exit whenever that exit happens. And it's not going to be indefinitely. You'll put a timing on it. And so that is what holds you to think about the future in the here and now though. Because I think it's important to talk about that and try to understand what is it that's in your control that is causing the frustration or this dissonance of like, I have my purpose and my through line in terms of advocating for the profession. And yet, you know, I'm in the midst of a very different purpose that other people's hold, like, what's the learning there for you? And I don't know if there is. I'm just curious.

[B]

Right? Yeah, I think that's what I'm grappling with, or at least that's a part of what I'm grappling with. Because when I look at the here and now, the day to day functions, I'm sort of scratching my head of like, what are you paying me to do exactly? Because the workload is not challenging. I fear saying easy. It's too easy from where I came from before. And I noticed that I function and I operate at the same level as my boss. Like, I can do this for you. Let me here trying to think a few steps ahead of what's in front of me. And I start initiating the next steps to think proactively and to act proactively. And I find out my boss is like, well, that's my job. Okay, so what would you like me to do?

[A]

Well, let me ask you a question though, Susan. How do you want to feel? Because I'm hearing a lot around, even the way you termed it, my cup is not being filled. Which means that ownership of the cup being filled is by something outside of you. And I want to sort of pivot that a little bit to how do you want to feel like my time

[B]

is valuable here, that it, like my expertise is worthwhile. Coming from a position where I was at was very value added. It was very, you know, I was able to speak on behalf of my boss and, you know, make sure that the message was being translated to support our teams. And I'm in a position that on paper it looked like a promotion with more challenges, more growth opportunities. And now that I'm in the position, I find out that, you know, really my boss just wants to do all of it, which just leaves me sort of, yeah, it's the other part of the fill my cup of, you know, my day to day functions. I'm just like, I feel like you're sort of wasting your money on me. Because the work that I complete is fairly pragmatic, I guess. And when I want to think strategically and when I want to say, how do we move the needle, how do we think more proactively, quickly, my boss is very much like mine. That's mine. That's what I do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so then I'm just sort of left with, okay, well then I'll just work on professional development. And then it's been made clear to me through our team conversations that what I thought was very attractive is that people stay in their positions for a long time. Their attention is, you know, many, many years. And I said, wow, that speaks volumes, I think, to their culture. And I've quickly learned because nobody wants to move out of their positions on our end of the spectrum. And so I come to find out, like, there's really no position for me to grow up into because my boss doesn't want to leave. And so then I'm just sort of left with like this head scratching every day. Why am I here? You know, I'm told I'm very valuable and all this other stuff. So I try and work with my colleagues to say, you know, how can I lift them up? How can I motivate them and give them opportunities to shine? And then when I sort of try and scratch the itch a little bit of, you know, what's our succession plan for our team and what does this look like for the future? I'D like to think that not everyone here is going to retire in these positions. Those conversations are quickly shut down.

[A]

Okay, so why are you there?

[B]

I understood from the interviews from.

[A]

I'm going to, like, interrupt you, which I know is bad coaching for me to be interrupting you, but I'm going to interrupt you. I'm asking you. Not what you were told. I'm asking you, Susan, in this moment, why are you there? Because you don't have to be.

[B]

You're right, I don't. I'm here for two reasons, right? The holding out in hopes that things will change. And, you know, certainly the benefits are amazing. You know, I'm hoping by thinking, wow, maybe this is just a personal phase of mine, that I'll just move past it. I'll grow through it. Maybe it's not as bad as what I'm thinking. I'm feeling that it is. Things will get better. I hope things would get better. I think that's pretty naive to think that as well, though. I feel like I have these two personalities on my shoulders of, like, the. The debacle, mentally going back and forth. I would like to think things would get better. And so in my mind, I'm like, okay, well, maybe the boss wants to pivot out at some point. Maybe I hold out for that to see what opportunities arise, to be able to say, yeah, this is. This is where I can grow, where I can help my colleagues grow. And it feels more fulfilling because I certainly feel work is one thing, but what I loved about my job before was this sort of epiphany that I had at the end of the day. Work will always be work. It's the people to me that matter, and I want them to feel that they are valued. And if I can be the only person or a person to help provide that for them, that fills my cup a lot as well. And I would like to see that happen here in this workplace. But it gets quickly shut down. It's all these little. I don't want to say excuses, but hopes, desires, that maybe the season would change.

[A]

Okay, so, you know, it could, right? And that's certainly one option is Susan stays steadfast around. Here's what makes this work. Any work experience meaningful. And I'm gonna wait for all of the characters to get into their proper positions so that this can be meaningful for me. So I'm gonna wait for all the conditions to get in place. So it almost, you know, looks a little bit like where I was. Cause the temperature was right where you were before, right? Yes. The temperature was right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that made it meaningful. That made it fun. Now you moved someplace, you still want to have fun, I. E. You want it to be meaningful, but it's raining or storming or whatever outside. Okay. So now you have a choice. Do you wait till the sun comes out again for it to be fun or meaningful, or do you say, hmm, I see it's stormy outside. Right. I am going to figure out, how can I still have fun.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And make it meaningful for me regardless of the weather outside, regardless of the conditions not being the amazing conditions I had before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not saying one or the other. I'm saying those are the options, the big options. Right. You can wait for the other, or you can say, you know what? Like, what is in my control without losing sight of the meaning part. Okay. Still want to have fun, still want it to be meaningful. But what is in my control that I can make this meaningful for me and still feel like I'm anchored to my North Star. Maybe not in the same way I was before, but still anchored.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So those are two paths we could explore others, but I think we should start with those two. And I'm happy to go down either path for you. Right. It sounds like you are already on the keep hope alive path.

[B]

Yes, yes, certainly. I think there's a lot of benefit to that path. Both the physical benefits that the position provides for myself and our family, but also the professional development benefits. I knew when I was pivoting that there were spaces that I need to grow in, and I want to pursue those very avidly. And I love to be challenged in my workplace so that I can help others. And I would hate to just hang that all up now. So I don't want to just, you know, rain on the parade or the pool analogy that we're going to.

[A]

I know we're using. We're mixing them up. Still vacation, though, still good.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, Right, Exactly. I certainly would love to just maximize the time that I'm here, and I don't want to just run away from a problem either. Right. I think it's important. I'm very convinced that I was put here for a reason, in this position or in this place of employment, and I don't want to take that for granted or neglect it. So trying to make sure I challenge myself, and very much what you just said, how do I really maximize the time that I'm here and not necessarily feel like I need to put a timeline, but I think mentally I sort of find myself like what could be the potential end date? Just to see light at the end of the tunnel, but at least to have a short term plan of here's what's in my control over the next two years, or let's say three years, and here's what's not in my control and just sort of let those pieces go where I can and really pursue the pieces that are in my control and still try to be value added to my team.

[A]

We'll be right back after this. Do me a favor and think for a second about how good it feels to be in clothes that actually feel good this spring. Cozy Earth can help you get there and help you remember that what you wear at home might be even more important than what you wear to walk out the door. You know, the kind of comfortable that's hard to even explain. You just gravitate to it the second you get home. Cozy Earth clogs can be just like that. An easy slip on silhouette with a soft cushioned interior that can take you from the kitchen to the backyard to the couch at the end of a long day. They're supportive enough to stand in, cozy enough to forget you're wearing them. Try Cozy Earth for yourself. They back everything with a 100 night trial, and if you don't love what you got, returning it is simple. They also offer a 10 year warranty on your homeware, the kind of commitment that tells you something about how they're made. So this spring, give yourself the kind of comfort that lives with you all day. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code Muriel for an exclusive 20% off. And if you see a post purchase survey mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here on Coaching Real Leaders, Comfort lives here. Today's episode is brought to you by Alma. A year from today, who do you want to be and who is on your team to help you get there? Imagine for a minute the version of yourself you'd like to meet one year from today. Do you feel less anxious or maybe more like yourself? Your grief could be more manageable or your relationship might even be stronger. To get there, you need help and therapy can be one of the best tools you can find. Luckily, Alma is also here to help help you with finding the right therapist for you. Alma has a directory of 20,000 therapists with different specialties, life experiences and identities and 99% of them take insurance. Just search for your specific needs. Plus you can know how much you'll pay upfront with Alma's free insurance cost Estimator, calculator. You deserve to feel like that future version of yourself. You imagine a year from today isn't that far away. So get started [e-mail] coaching that's helloalma.com C-O-A c h I n g every business is asking the same question. How do we make AI work? For us, the possibilities are endless and guessing is too risky. But sitting on the sidelines is not an option. Because one thing is almost certain. Your competitors are already making their move. No more waiting. With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work. Today, NetSuite is the number one AI Cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and CRM into a single source of truth. That connected data is what makes your AI smarter. So it doesn't just guess, it knows. Intelligently automates routine tasks, delivers actionable insights, helps you cut costs and make fast AI AI powered decisions with confidence. You've got total flexibility. This isn't another bolted on tool. It's AI built into the system that runs your business. If I had needed this product, it's what I use. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our free business guide demystifying AI at netsuite.com Muriel the guide is free to you at netsuite.com Murel netsuite.com Muriel. Coming into this session, Susan had already thought a lot about what is bothering her about her current role. And there was a lot of noise, as she puts it, that was bogging her down in the early part of our coaching conversation. I wanted her to get specific about what was getting in her way and also what she was getting out of the role. The reality is that the opportunities we want don't always appear when we feel fully ready for them. And even when they do, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. So the question then becomes, now what? What can one do when a career move doesn't go as planned? But we feel like we've got to stick it out for some time. So first of all, good for having some clarity on I'm not leaving tomorrow. I think it's about how do you want to navigate this window, as you said? So one of the things that you're sharing is I want to be able to maximize this opportunity by being able to do some of the things that I might not have otherwise done right, professional development, et cetera. And that's very action oriented and we can Go through the list of, like, okay, like, let's name the five things that you can do that you know will help position you for whatever's next. I think in addition to that, I have a question around. To what extent are you feeling like you need to adjust your North Star and your sense, again, this purpose through line that has been here since the beginning of your career? To what extent are you feeling like because the conditions aren't ideal in some way, you have to let go of that through line during this time or it's diluted in any way?

[B]

That's a tough one, if I'm being fully honest with you. I'm not sure exactly. I think I would have to ponder on that angle more. But it's a challenging question to fully say, like, okay, I need to be real with myself and fully understand, like, what that would look like.

[A]

So let me ask you this. Like, is there any evidence for yourself what would make you decide whether you need to let go of it or you can still have this purpose that you've had?

[B]

Let go of the purpose, you mean, of being in this new role? I don't think I could let it go. That's a huge value. Like, the purpose of saying, how do I give back to my industry that has given me so much? I don't think I could ever let that go because that is a huge cornerstone for my self, my values, raising my kids, you know, trying to fight the good fight. And yeah, that. That all sounds very cliche, but I live it every day and there's not many of us that work in our profession like this. And not that I feel like I need to shoulder it myself because I know there's many other capable people that could do it just as well, if not better. But for me, this is a huge fundamental motivating factor to do the job that I do every day. And I want to be able to give a voice to our profession in a way that's meaningful and lasting.

[A]

Okay, so that's the consistency. I think what's happening is that you're in a season where, again, the conditions or what pulls your attention in terms of what you're seeing from others, you know, the bottom line conversations or the, you know, your to do list doesn't feel like it's aligned with your purpose. And I keep using this word feel because whether it is or not is up to you. It's just not presenting itself in the same way that it did previously. And I don't know what the answer is. I never do. But I'm just like curious about if we were to just imagine that you were walking in to work tomorrow and you felt like your cup is full or filled basically because you know that you are walking in your purpose. No matter what is happening, no matter what the bottom line conversation is. Right. No matter what your boss is saying yes or no to. But your cup being filled is primarily because you're still anchored to that motivation that you've had all along. What difference would that make in terms of your relationship to the season that you're in right now?

[B]

I certainly think it would make it more purposeful. Right. I would be happier. I wouldn't be as cynical or agitated with the day to day job functions that I'm given that. You know, I feel like I'm on a very, very tight leash because my boss and I operate at the same level and I'm hungry for more. And I think I would be more tolerable to those moments, you know, when I think, hey, have we tried this or have we looked at this or have we strategized this angle just to be quickly shut down. I don't think I maybe be as agitated or maybe if I am, I recover a little bit quicker. Yeah, I've certainly tried to have those self pep talks of, you know, even with the products that we have, they're giving our professionals more tools in the toolbox. I always default back to like yeah, but it's salesy and I feel like I'm being forced in a very narrow pipeline and I have to like function and operate. Which is funny because I think a lot of people think the government is like that too. But very much so. I think if, if I had that mentality like you were saying, Muriel, it would make the day to day life at work probably a little bit more tolerable. Maybe I would write it out a little bit longer.

[A]

Yeah. Again, it's a choice. I'm not saying you have to. Right. But when I'm hearing you say I think I do want to stay for some time because of all these other things that I get, the question becomes how do I make it sustainable for me to stay for that time? And what I would suggest is what makes it sustainable is that you don't abandon the purpose side of it. But there's always going to be trade offs. I mean this is what you're being faced with right now. There are choices that you're making that maybe you didn't have to make before, you know, lucky you. Right? The stars, everything was aligned like the perfect conditions supposedly were in place for that time, but that's not always the case. And so now you're in a situation where the conditions are not ideal in the way that you would have liked them. And so you have choices to make. And I'm not suggesting that those choices are always easy, but we can also make it harder for ourselves. So if you are like, okay, regardless of where I am, I'm still tied to that initial purpose. Right. That's one thing. Then it's how do I express that purpose on a day to day. Right. Which is separate, which is more around what you're doing. So what are the trade offs that you're willing to make today? Because that's the choice.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, ultimately that's been a discussion that my husband and I have had quite often. There's some great trade offs from the day to day function. I think any person would say, why would you be mad about not having as full of a plate as you did before? Or maybe this is a season with purpose to just, I don't want to say rest, but not feel like I need to check my phone all hours of the night, all the weekend. That's a huge benefit. It's a huge trade off. You know, before we ran on adrenaline, it was go, go, go all the time. And now it's very different the day to day. And so when I try to pursue something more challenging and feel like it gets closed off, that's frustrating. And so I've tried probably not as hard as I could have or can, to just say, maybe this is just a season of a little bit slower pace and that's okay. And then embrace that in a way of that may not feel like I'm, you know, can I tolerate the calls a little bit better? Realizing, like, is there something here for me to learn? Can I use that as a tool for me to improve myself professionally? And maybe that would make my job a little bit more enjoyable.

[A]

But can I ask you a question? Like, I'm curious about the calls because you've mentioned them a few times and I see you rolling your eyes. Right. In what world does it say you have to enjoy, like, everything that's happening on the job?

[B]

There's none. Exactly.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

No, you're right.

[A]

I'm just throwing it out there.

[B]

You're right. It's new for me and maybe that's where I struggle. It feels, you know, icky and I'm like, my goodness. Like, is everything based off of sales? Yes. And that's okay. How do I get Past that. I think it. Like I said, maybe I'd get calloused and get used to it after a while.

[A]

But why does there have to be a getting past it? Why can't it just be this is it?

[B]

I suppose there doesn't need to be a getting past it. It just is a scab that gets picked every time I have to join the call.

[A]

What's the scab, though? What I'm trying to understand is, and I'm just using this as an example. Right. It just feels like you are. You're almost offended by what's happening. And I'm trying to understand. I'm reading your body language right. What is driving you to feel charged about the way that things are happening here? Because it was like this before you came back and it will be like that after you leave. That's right. I don't think this is being done to Susan.

[B]

No, no, no, no. I think it's just a mental adjustment for me. Like I said, it's the sales runs the business. That's how we function. That's how the business functions. And it's different for me. It just feels salesy, like a sales. Like the old school car sales feeling. And when everything goes back to what's the roi, what's the gain for the business? It's just hard to sit in those calls. For me, it feels very stereotypical of companies like this where it's like all you guys care about is the money and the sales and the bottom line.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, look, if you're coming in with, well, what are you coming in with? Like, I don't want to put words in your mouth. The energy that you give it is the energy it's going to give you back. And so what is the energy that you're giving? This environment that was here before you walked in, as I said, and will be there after you leave. Right. Unless, as you said, you know, fingers crossed. You hope somehow it changes overnight, but let's imagine it doesn't. So in what way are you contributing? And I'm not absolving what's happening, but in what way are you contributing to how you are experiencing this season that you're in, in this organization?

[B]

I've been trying to take two approaches. One, reframing my brain of what can I get out of these business meetings? You know, can I just stop rolling my eyes or, you know, whatever. The Botox that I used to use, it's wearing. You know, I can't. People can see my faces now.

[A]

There's no wrinkles when you. I will say that the eye rolling is beautiful. I see no wrinkles happening. The skin game is perfection.

[B]

That's bad. That's bad. No, I think it's. If, in all seriousness, I think for me, it's like, okay, so you're in this meeting. It might be the stereotypical. You know, this is what the industry thinks about this business. Yes, yes, yes. But what can I glean out of it that would make me better at my job, better professionally, so that I can use it today or I can use it three years from now? And on the other hand, I hear also from my colleagues on our team. They want to grow, they want to develop. So how can I support them and how can I advocate for them, which is what I love to do, and find ways to be strategically, you know, effective for them as well, to say, hey, I see this opportunity over here. You know, the spiel I used to give my team before in my previous role was, how can I help you? Like, what do you want to work on that will lead you to your next step? And how can I support you in that? And so I'm trying to take that approach. And I think sometimes when my boss hears it, they're just like, what are you doing? Everyone's happy where they're at. Stop. You know, stop doing this. But I hear different. And so it's sort of this juxtaposition of like, okay, well, it almost feels like I'm being told to be a little quiet, but I'm not going to. So how do I challenge myself in the meantime to keep myself busy, but to also learn and be authentic, and then at the same time, develop these relationships with my colleagues and maybe be an advocate for them that they haven't had in a while or maybe just a different voice.

[A]

So there's two lanes that you brought up. One of them being, how do I. How do I do things for myself, quite frankly? And the other being, but at the same time, I want to do things for my colleagues.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm going to suggest that you approach one at a time. I think you need to kind of get yourself stabilized first. We're talking about cups being filled.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's the whole cliche. You can't fill another person's cup unless you fill your own.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

So your cup is. Is not filled, and yet you're trying to fill others.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I would suggest. Let's focus on you. All right. And what's interesting to me is when I ask you about what would be sustainable for you, what would keep you moving here. You said, look, I'm trying to reframe how I think about it or my, you know, you use the word mental reframe around the position and the opportunity, but then you go straight to, how do I maximize it? Like, what do I do? And I'm not quite sure you've articulated what the reframe is, which is why there's a lot of mixed messages in what you're sending. And let me tell you what the mixed messages are. I'm not quite sure what the mindset is saying. It hasn't quite reframed. Okay. The actions, which is another level of messaging is I'm going to try to maximize this. I'm doing the professional development. I'm trying to focus on X, Y and Z. And then the physical message is in a completely different place. Right. It's the eye rolling frustration. And I think we need to get all of that on one page. We need the mindset and the actions and the physical part all working together. Because right now they're working all in different ways.

[B]

Independently.

[A]

Independently. Okay. Hence why you're probably feeling like out of Schwartz.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My question would be, what would it look like if all three of those things were all operating regardless of what's happening in this company? Okay. And the boss doesn't change if all three of those things are operating under the same umbrella of. I am still in service of my purpose of advocating for this profession that I care so deeply about. And I am providing for my family financially in a way that I want to want to right now. Those are, what I'm hearing is the two kind of big capital P purposes. What would it look like from my mindset, my actions and my physical energy to all be aligned under that umbrella regardless of what's happening around me?

[B]

It would be so synergistic and lovely.

[A]

Yes. That would be the impact. So I want us to imagine that I walk into your office tomorrow and you see me and you are like, I don't know if you know that song by Rihanna when she says, come under my umbrella.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm not gonna sing it. But you know the song by riri, Right. And you're like, muriel, come under my umbrella. Right. And I'm like, oh, okay. And then we get under the umbrella and I feel the synergy. What would be different than it is today that is under your control? How would you be thinking differently? What actions would you take and what would your physical energy be?

[B]

The first thought that really comes to mind, Muriel is not taking everything so Personally, you know, I can't control what my boss wants to do on a daily basis for their role and their position, even though I feel like, you know, that falls under my job description and that's what you hired me to do and not taking it so personally, which then just sort of feeds into the rest of it. Right. Every time I have to go on a trip, I'm like, here we go again. You know, is this trip really needed? Can I get this work done in a different way? And usually my answer is like, yes, I can always get it done a different way, but the boss wants it. I just. Yeah, I think I wouldn't be so cynical and not take everything so personally and get wound up, really. I don't want to say the word trigger, but it's getting close to that of like, here we go again. Here we go again. And I also don't want to say laid back, because I don't want to be laid back in my job. I don't want to get complacent. I. I've worked with people like that. I'm not going to be naive about that either. And I think that would be the first. The first start.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My husband wouldn't hear all the complaints every night of, can you believe what happened? And, you know. Yeah. I think that would be the first change that I would hope to see if everything was running synergistically.

[A]

There's a couple of things, Dara. One is, I think part of what's happening is you so badly want it to be different that it is keeping you from maximizing the opportunity, basically.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So if you want to maximize the opportunity, which is what you said you want, and you are allowed to say, actually, Muriel, I changed my mind. I do not want to maximize the opportunity. Right.

[B]

I do. I do.

[A]

But what you told me is you want to maximize the opportunity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What I'm hearing for you is you want to maximize the opportunity with a little less. A little less what?

[B]

Maximize the opportunity with a little less maybe cynicism towards the business. Look, the business isn't going to change. This is how it functions. And maybe I just got a taste of something that's just not my cup of tea, and that's okay. How do I be present? How do I maximize my time here? And I think that's ultimately like, what it's boiling down to. Look this. You could go through a reorg for a company, but that doesn't change the purpose or the bottom line for the company. It will always remain what it is. Today, I'M not going to change it. The CEO's not going to change it. That's the whole point of the company.

[A]

And it works vice versa. I mean, what you just said is beautiful. Right. You can go do all these things and it doesn't change the bottom line, or at least for the president, it doesn't change the bottom line and the purpose of the company. It works the other way around. The company can be doing all these things. Why should that change your purpose and your bottom line? It doesn't need to. Acceptance, Right. I don't see it as laid back. I think it's accepting that maybe right now you're in a season where there is dissonance between your North Star and the North Star of the context that you're in. But what you've made very clear is that it's not permanent. So we know this is not permanent. It would be very different if what you were telling me is, no, like, I gotta be here for like another 20 years. We're like, okay. Right. No, but you're saying, like, I know this is not permanent. This is more around me getting through winter.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So the question becomes, how do I get through winter in the most tolerable way, which you said is not feeling as cynical or as you said, like, I wouldn't feel as wound up around it. Yeah. I don't think that changes any of the actions that you already said you're taking. I just think it changes the way you experience.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Taking those actions. That's right.

[B]

I think just coming to grips in reality with that of, like you said, acceptance doesn't have to have a negative connotation. My husband always uses the phrase it is what it is, which I can't stand at all. But it's very applicable.

[A]

And you know what? It's applicable to everything.

[B]

Because previously in my mind, that phrase, you know, it would always register as complacency. And, you know, but we could do more and we could make it better and some things are just what they are and you have to make the most of what you have in your control. Like you mentioned, it's so articulated well. And I think I just need to come to grips with that and accept that.

[A]

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[A]

If there's one thing I know, it's this Finding alignment is key to leading sustainably. What Susan had been feeling but didn't quite have the words for was misalignment, a disconnect between her mindset, the actions she's taking, and even the physical energy she's exuding. And when that happens, it's often because we're struggling accepting the way things are versus what we think they should be or should have been. Now I want to reinforce something I said to Susan during the conversation. Acceptance does not mean passivity. That can be an especially difficult adjustment for high achievers, for for people who are deeply mission driven, or for those who have a very specific vision for how their career should unfold. But by finding a path towards acceptance about her current context, Susan may be able to invest more productive energy into how she moves forward and potentially get more back from it in return. What's fascinating to me is your thing is advocating, in a sense, the reason you're saying you don't like the it is what it Is. Is because it feels like, well, if I just accept, then it means there's nothing that can be better, which then means, like, then, like that means there's nothing to advocate for. Right. If you believe something is okay, then you won't advocate. Somehow that's going to get in your way of advocating.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think what this opportunity is presenting you with is that there is a world where you can accept and advocate at the same time. Right. Like, you accept the reality of what it is. You have to see it for what it is. The charge that you're feeling is like, you're not really seeing it for what it is. You're seeing it for what you want it to be.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it's not there.

[B]

It's not changing.

[A]

See it for what it is. And then it's like, okay, now that I see it for what it is, in what way can I advocate? What are the opportunities here for me to advocate? And it might not look the same way that you did when you were in your previous role. Advocacy might look different. Maybe advocacy here is more about advocating for yourself. Maybe eventually it'll be advocating for your colleagues. Maybe it is, oh, learning the things that will help you advocate out of here. But I think there is this learning of how do you still stand strong in the strain of advocacy, even when you have to see the conditions for what they are, which are not, you know, quote unquote, ideal.

[B]

That's right. Yeah. I'm so glad you articulated that. It very much validates sort of like that gut instinct that I felt over the last few months and hearing it from you and hearing it from somebody else, like, outside of the picture, it's incredibly validating and incredibly affirming in that way of saying, like, I'm not going crazy. But also. Yeah. Like, if we're choosing to stay here, which is what I'm doing, how can I maximize this and know, like, you said it so well before, like, what's in my control and what's not in my control, and how do we navigate those two pieces and be okay with it and also still feel like there's a little bit more of a sense of purpose. And your point that I really loved was I need to get my pieces situated under the umbrella first. Right. Like the fillmy cup first or the oxygen mask, whatever analogy that we use before I can go and help others. I think that's a huge takeaway as well.

[A]

Which is still a form of advocacy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just. It's self advocacy.

[B]

Yeah. Which in a way Is much more of a bigger picture that I like because in my mind, I need things tangible. I need to say, like, okay, what are my action items? What are we doing, you know, in this timeframe? In this timeframe. In this timeframe, which is what I have all laid out in this ridiculous word document.

[A]

Like, See, that was my sense. Right. Like you we started the meeting. I'm like, she already knows what the action. This is not about the action items. In all seriousness, I don't think it's about the action items we can go through. Even though that's what you asked for. Like, how do I maximize. Kept coming back to how do I Give me the action steps. Muriel, you already had the action steps. Right. I think how do you make those action steps, if indeed those are the ones you're going to follow, how do you make them meaningful for you?

[B]

Right? Yes. And that's what I loved what you said earlier of how do we align these three pieces? The mental, the fit rate, how do we get those pieces aligned so that they're not disjointed? So that when I'm actually doing an action, the mindset is in a right space to be able to do that. Not that it's like the left hand not talking with the right hand and it's like, you know that. But it doesn't really resonate until now. Well, good.

[A]

Which I really appreciate now is better than tomorrow.

[B]

But it's true. I think that the mental approach for the day to day functions will certainly make a difference. And I really value that a lot.

[A]

And I think look to juxtapose with where you were before, it's not that all of a sudden now you need that alignment and that it wasn't necessary before. The difference is that before it was sort of given to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you didn't have to work at the alignment.

[B]

You know, it's there.

[A]

It was like you opened, you know, dating. I don't even know if they still do this, but you know, you open the box of crayons and you're like, all the colors that I wanted are in the crayon. This is incredible.

[B]

You just have to use them.

[A]

You just. Right, like. And now it's like, oh, I got the box and crayons and I still want a color, but it's not the shades. Now I got to go look for them or I got to blend. I got to blend some of these colors to get the right shade. I have to do it. So you have to work at it a little bit. That's okay. That's okay. Sometimes we have to create our own conditions so that we can make meaning. But we make the meaning. You make the meaning. The meaning is not being handed to you and it wasn't handed to you before. It just so happened that there was synchronicity in the meaning.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Now there's not. But that doesn't mean meaning goes away, right?

[B]

Yeah, that's a great point. I'm going to have to sit with that for a little bit. That'll be something that I put on a post it note that I just have to remind myself every day in my calendar or my schedule because I do think it's. It's a. It's a mindset shift, really.

[A]

And so what I would offer you, you have your word document that I haven't seen, but if we were to look at it, right. What I would suggest is you go through that document. I'm imagining that there are columns in this document. There are, there are in rows.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Columns and rows.

[B]

Timelines.

[A]

There we go. I want you to add a column that for each action item, I want you to answer the question, how do I make this action meaningful for me? If that question doesn't work for you, then you can ask yourself, in what way does this action support or create meaning in support of those two big P purposes that we have, the advocacy for the profession, the profession piece and the profit piece for you?

[B]

Yeah. Okay, that's good.

[A]

All right, that's one comment. So there's the meaning piece. And then as you take action on a day to day basis, you know, a great practice for you is the next time you go into one of these meetings, I'm so excited for you. Because what I would suggest is that the next time you walk into those, you ask yourself before you go in, if your goal is to feel like this meeting has meaning for you in some way, what is the mindset that you need to walk in with? How are you going to engage in that meeting, if at all? You can engage by listening, that's fine. And physically, how are you going to show up? And the only rule I'm going to give you is all three of those things need to be working in an integrated way.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There needs to be, as you put it, synergy between the three.

[B]

Synergy? Yeah.

[A]

One can't be going in one direction and the other in the other direction. And just try it and see what happens.

[B]

Yeah. Very, very actionable. It certainly requires a lot of presence of saying, okay, how am I going to show up? In these three spaces. But I really like the question that you poses, like, how do I make this action meaningful for me? I think that really is what it boils down to of, does this fill your cup? And, you know, if not, or if it does, asking, what's the mindset that I can walk in with?

[A]

And, you know, I love that you said it's going to require some presence. Because it does. And by presence, I mean it's going to require you to be present to your situation right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not in the past of how it was. You can't have your mindset where it was and then have your mindset in terms of what you want it to be. You've got to stay with where it is now because this is what you're dealing with, and you're dealing with it by choice. So that's what you need to anchor with. Nobody's telling you you have to be there.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So if you're going to be there, recognize it's your choice to be there.

[B]

Yep, absolutely.

[A]

And, you know, how do you want all three of those things to be integrated in a way that supports. Supports your purpose as well as maximizing that wonderful list of opportunities on your Word document?

[B]

I love this. Like I said in the beginning, it's not a. I don't want to quit. I don't want to walk away from this because I feel like there's a reason why I'm in this season, and there's a reason why I'm in this position, and I need to figure that out. And, you know, the more we're sort of peeling this onion back, the more I'm starting to see, like, yeah, this is probably the professional development that I've been trying to search and seek, and it might not necessarily be one for, you know, how do I directly help others, but maybe, like, no, this. This might just be. For me, this is a space I need to grow and. And really be able to embrace. Like, not every role is going to come with a lovely box of crayons that fits all the colors that I want. So. So how do I look past that and make it what you're intending it or what you're hoping it to be?

[A]

Yeah. So let me ask you a question as we close. When we first came into this conversation, how did you articulate the reason for this season and how are you articulating it now?

[B]

Coming into the conversation, it was very much of I'm here. I don't. Not a huge fan of the role. Not a huge fan of the. Not that the company does anything wrong. It's just the type of business that I'm working in isn't just, you know, filling my cup. And therefore I question what my value is and I question why I'm here. Sort of felt pretty blindsided. You know, it looked really nice on paper. And now that I'm here, it's like. And now, you know, at the end of our conversation, it's allowed me to really help articulate and hear you be able to also validate. Framing it in a different way of saying, yeah, you're right, you are here for a reason. Maybe it is the professional development, but how do we reframe the day to day function of, you know, you highlighted such a great piece that like you feel exists, but it was never articulated until now, which is I have these dynamics, the mental, the physical aspect of this job and moving into this opportunity that you're like, it's really nice, but I still have this angst and frustration. So how do we get all of these pieces moving in the same direction at the same pace? Which I think is really where I need to be before I start saying, look, yes, it fills my cup to help my colleagues, but I need to work on me a little bit. And this is where I need to work. Which is what I've been trying to figure out. Right. Like, what's the professional development that I can get out of this job. It's not a class, it's not, you know. Yeah. A four step process, really. It's. It's having this conversation to really be able to pull out what exactly I need to be working on. And it's really that mindset frame. I really loved your analogy of the box of crayons, which really, I think articulates it really well. Yeah, I was given a really good box of crayons up until this point and now it's. I gotta make it work.

[A]

Yeah, you can still color. You can still color.

[B]

I want to invest in it and

[A]

I want to make it work until you don't.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Right.

[A]

You don't have to forever, but that's up to you.

[B]

Right? Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Okay, big breath.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let me know how things work out.

[B]

Thank you. I really appreciate it. This has been so, so valuable and I'm just, I'm really grateful for the time and the wisdom because it really helps.

[A]

In reality, almost every role we take on in our careers comes with both positives and negatives. Even the best aligned jobs involve trade offs, frustrations and limitations. We're often just more aware of those tensions when a role feels misaligned or hard. What Susan realized is that acceptance, alignment, and self advocacy can all coexist. So many of us expend huge amounts of energy trying to find meaning in our work as though it's a prize meant to uncover through some sort of scavenger hunt. The truth is, there's a huge difference in how you experience your career if your approach is to find meaning versus seeing meaning as something to create. We all have the capacity and power to make and create meaning out of what we do. The more we can lean into that that the more we can, as Susan put it, maximize the opportunities in front of us, regardless of the context we're in. That's it for today. Come back in two weeks for a new Coaching Real Leaders Ask Muriel Anything episode. If you want me to coach you through an issue or have a question you want answered, head on over to coachingrealeaders.com and let me know. And if you want to unpack the episodes from Coaching Real Leaders, you can join me at coachingrealeaderscommunity.com where I host live discussions about each coaching session you hear on this show. You can also follow me on LinkedIn, murielwilkins and on Instagram oachmurielwilkins. A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you would go to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to. Subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. Thank you to my producer Mary Dew, sound Editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, and my Chief of Staff, Emily Soffa. Much gratitude to the leaders who joined me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.