B (4:18)

Okay, now I understand. So you've been at the company a couple of years, moved up to head of marketing. You have a passion around marketing, a strong philosophy around marketing, meaning that you see marketing as really being imperative for growth.

A (4:34)

Yes.

B (4:35)

Of an organization rather than just a lever to pull. And yet the company you're in, marketing, has been a positioned as a support function. And now you've been told that those support functions, those shared services functions, are not going to be in growth mode.

A (4:53)

Correct.

B (4:53)

They're going to stay as is or

A (4:55)

are they being reduced as is, which is stagnation, which is like my least favorite place to be in the whole world, so.

B (5:03)

Understood. Understood. Okay. And so your response or what you felt when your boss told you this, that your group was going to stay stagnant, you described it as shocked. What I'm trying to understand is why shock? Because there's a number of different feelings or reactions that you could have had to that news. And I'm not suggesting that one is a good reaction. And the other is a bad reaction. I'm just trying to understand what is behind the reaction. Why is it a shock to you?

A (5:35)

Yeah, maybe shocked wasn't quite the right word. It was a surprise because I thought that we were more philosophically aligned than that. And part of it is perhaps I'm just new to the role. It's a surprise because I thought when I received the promotion that that was kind of a, okay, we are good with this new direction for the department. And, and it, it was never explicitly stated, but I thought I made it pretty clear that I have very different views of marketing than my predecessor did.

B (6:13)

And so the surprise is. Wait a minute. Like I thought philosophically, we viewed marketing in the same way, right?

A (6:23)

Correct.

B (6:24)

Remind me what the CEO said. Was it that he was changing his view about marketing or that he was changing the way he thinks market needs to be invested in?

A (6:35)

He lumped marketing in with the rest of the shared services teams, which are heavy support functions.

B (6:41)

Okay.

A (6:41)

We are very much on like the precipice technologically of being able to operate within the same ecosystem as sales and really support and empower revenue growth better than we ever have been. So I think, you know, in my mind it's like, well, why did they invest in this technology that was going to position us to really start driving growth if shared services don't grow? And marketing is just being lumped in with the rest of those?

B (7:09)

So help me understand is his intent that marketing does not help drive growth.

A (7:15)

I probably should have gotten a little more clarity from him around that. I assume, and that's probably where I've gone wrong, I assume he's just never seen marketing within the context of this company perform in that way. And so maybe he just doesn't. I mean, you just, you don't know what you haven't seen before. Right. And so maybe he's just stuck.

B (7:40)

In what way? How is he stuck?

A (7:42)

Stuck in seeing marketing as what it has been in the company, which is very much a support function instead of a growth revenue driver.

B (7:52)

And in the past it had not been a support function.

A (7:55)

No, in the past I feel it's been mostly a support function. So it's been mostly, you know, sales or whoever will come to us and say, hey, make this flyer for me. Right. We make the flyer. There you go. Instead of lead generation and nurture and what marketing really could be. Right, Right.

B (8:10)

So let me just play something back for you, Rin, and I'm asking a lot of check in questions. Cause I want to make sure I'm Hearing correctly.

A (8:16)

Okay.

B (8:18)

What I'm hearing is what was said was we are not going to invest as heavily as we have in the past in shared services. We are reallocating that investment to the sales team.

A (8:34)

Yes, I think that's fair.

B (8:36)

Okay. What I didn't hear. But again, tell me if that's what was said. What I didn't hear is that marketing is not a driver of growth anymore for our organization. What I didn't hear is marketing is the only one that we're doing this to. And what I didn't hear is marketing was kind of pseudo shared services before, but now it's really shared services. Right. What I heard is it's always been shared services.

A (9:09)

Yes. Correct. That's correct.

B (9:12)

Nothing's changed from a standpoint. Correct.

A (9:15)

I suppose, yes.

B (9:16)

You suppose? Why do you just suppose?

A (9:19)

I was under the assumption that with these new foundational, you know, technologies and processes that we've been putting in place over the last gosh, year or more, that that meant that marketing was kind of breaking out of that typical, like shared services support, heavy, non pipeline driver like I thought. I thought we were kind of breaking out of that.

B (9:48)

Okay. And so what would you have needed for that to become an assertion rather than an assumption?

A (9:55)

So I guess I should go back a little bit. The roadmap that I have for the team, for the department is one that's going to require incremental headcount additions as we empower the company to grow. And as the company grows. Right. And it has the resources to invest in that. It was really just okay, we need to start putting these puzzle pieces together so that we can effectively service sales and empower sales and drive leads and fill the funnel and all that good stuff. Right. These things that I see as something that is necessary in order for us to continue to grow. But to do that, I have to have additional resources and additional talent.

B (10:39)

And I see how you're putting all the pieces together to position marketing. Not even to position marketing. Like you are putting all the pieces together as though you are a driver for the organization, you are operating in the way that you believe marketing needs to function within this company. My question is, who else was on the same page as you? In order for that vision that you have or had, have still have to be a reality. Because marketing is not operating in a vacuum. It's operating with other stakeholders and other departments, et cetera.

A (11:27)

Sure.

B (11:27)

So what is the alignment that you had that these things that you were putting in place, everyone else or the people who needed to be were Also on the same page, that you truly are, as you put it, kind of a entity that is driver of growth

A (11:43)

for the company, I think I could have done a better job of being more explicit with other leaders from the beginning, I think. I don't actually know, now that I'm thinking about it, that I've shared the entire roadmap with anyone except my team.

B (12:02)

Mm.

A (12:03)

I'm just, you know, trying to add these little puzzle pieces as I go so that it doesn't just get shut down from day one because it's a lot. Does that make sense?

B (12:15)

Yeah, it does. What I'm experiencing from you, it's like, I'm gonna build it.

A (12:21)

Yeah,

B (12:23)

Right. If I build the house next door and I make it big. Yeah. But maybe nobody will notice, but when they see it, they will love it, and that's when they'll give me. That's when they'll give me the building permit.

A (12:35)

Like, brick by brick.

B (12:36)

Brick by brick. They will love it. And when it's all said and done, the neighbors will be happy that the mansion is now there, even though what they've been saying all along is that the size of the lot is for a cottage,

A (12:52)

honestly. Yeah.

B (12:55)

So, I mean, the mansion is lovely, but nobody knew it was coming. You sort of operated with a big reveal, but it sounds like what happened is the CEO sort of preempted the big reveal.

A (13:08)

Yeah.

B (13:09)

So what is the learning for that? And I don't want to stay in the past. We're going to move forward. Right, but what is the learning from that in terms of how you now move forward?

A (13:21)

I mean, obviously, I think the challenge has been to present, you know, the. The blueprint for this mansion without scaring anybody away, because even asking for one brick has, like.

B (13:39)

Right, but now you're upset that they're, like, not buying into. But they don't even know what they're buying into or what they're aligning with. Yeah, that's like, your starting point was I haven't framed the narrative. Right. I mean, what framing of what narrative did you give?

A (13:52)

Yeah, not much, I think. I think so. I think I operated under a lot of assumption, because I think that, like I said, we're. We're in the middle of. Of investing in this big technology platform. So I was thinking, okay, clearly they're investing in this direction that I'm wanting to go in because they're putting us in the same platform as sales. Finally, I think I took for granted the fact that maybe they even understood that that's what Yeah, I mean, look,

B (14:28)

I think, look, we all do it, right? Like, I think you interpreted what was happening in a way that supported the ending that you wanted.

A (14:37)

Yes. You know, that's very fair. Yeah.

B (14:40)

And we all do it. You know, you saw the moves being made. You know, you got the flowers and you were like, yeah, it's going to end up that ultimately we will live happily ever after. But the person giving the flowers was maybe like, no, I'm just giving you flowers. Like, that's it. Or the flowers are just because we're friends or, you know, different interpretations, different assumptions. We'll be right back after this. Every business leader I coach is asking the same question. How do we make AI work for us? The possibilities are endless and guessing is too risky. But sitting on the sidelines is not an option because one thing is almost certain. Your competitors are already making their move. No more waiting. With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today, NetSuite is the number one AI Cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and CRM into a single source of truth. That connected data is what makes your AI smarter. So it doesn't just guess. It knows intelligently, automates routine tasks, delivers actionable insights, helps you cut costs and make fast AI powered decisions with confidence. You've got total flexibility now with NetSuite AI connector, you can use the AI of your choice to connect to your actual business data and ask every question you ever had. From key customers to cash on hand to inventory trends. Plus automate those tiresome manual processes. Let's see your competitor do that. This isn't another bolted on tool. It's AI built into the system that runs your business. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you stay ahead of the pack. If I'd had needed this product, it's what I'd use. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our free business guide demystifying AI at netsuite.com Muriel the guide is free to you at netsuite.com Murel netsuite.com Muriel Working across teams is tough, but Asana helps you handle it. That's because Asana is where humans and AI coordinate work together. AI can spot roadblocks and assign work in a snap. So everything and everyone stays on track. That's how work gets handled. That's Asana. Visit us@asana.com that's asana.com. So far in the Conversation with Elizabeth, we've seen a somewhat common pitfall emerge. An ambitious leader comes into a new role with big plans and tries to figure out the best way to go about trying to get their goals met, but without actually having a direct conversation with leadership about their strategy. Strategic vision to see if there's buy in. It's an essential part of leadership to both come up with a vision and figure out the best way to communicate that vision and get buy in, whether from the CEO, your peers, or your direct reports. Having a plan around how to execute your plan helps you ultimately achieve success. But it also prevents the frustration that ensues when it becomes clear that not everyone is on the same same page. This is the type of misalignment that Elizabeth is facing now. Let's dig deeper into how she might proceed to find more alignment with her boss and organization. If you want alignment, which is what you said, moving in, like, there's a couple of pieces. First is like, how do you deal with now what you just got is confirmation that marketing is not positioned in the way that you would like for it to be positioned. Right. Which we're going to get to.

A (18:44)

Which was a surprise.

B (18:45)

Which was a surprise.

A (18:46)

Oh, but you gave me flowers.

B (18:49)

You gave me flowers.

A (18:50)

Right.

B (18:51)

So the first question is, in what way do you in the future ensure, to the best of your capabilities, play your part? Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but play your part in trying to get alignment. As you are moving in a certain direction, what's in your control around what you could do?

A (19:17)

I mean, I think better late than never. I probably should frame some type of narrative around this blueprint that I have that's, that's in my head and in my teens head. And that I'm assuming is where we're headed as a company. And that's where I get stuck. Because I didn't know until very recently that I even needed to like, tighten this narrative up. So now I'm like, how do I. Yeah, it's frustrating. It's frustrating because to me it's so clear. But I'm learning now that it's not actually. And so how do I reframe the narrative so that it becomes more clear for someone who's not in our shoes?

B (19:54)

Right. And is the goal that you want to make it clear or is the goal that you want them to agree to what you think the vision should be? Because those are two different things.

A (20:02)

I would hope that by making the narrative clear and by framing it as, you know, the vision I have Is growth. Growth for the company, growth in revenue, growth for us, growth in general. If I made that clear, then I'm hoping that they would want the same thing. Right, so.

B (20:22)

So you can be very clear about the plan. Right. You have all the data and the bullet points and you're explaining it really well.

A (20:31)

Right.

B (20:31)

That is different than framing the plan in a way that makes it relevant or that increases the chances of alignment or agreement, which even that alignment or agreement are two different things. Okay. Your CEO could be aligned with and we don't know, you know, he's not sitting in front of us.

A (20:57)

Right.

B (20:57)

But your CEO could be in alignment with your vision. This is what we know. There's a lot of assumptions and you keep using the words assumptions. There are a lot of assumptions here and I think you need to go check them out. Right?

A (21:07)

Yeah, yeah.

B (21:08)

But he could be aligned with the vision. He may not agree that this is the time because of the resources. He may not agree that we need to reallocate just to marketing, but not the other shared services.

A (21:21)

Yeah.

B (21:22)

So I'm sort of coming back to this. Maybe there's like the three A's, right? Like there are the assumptions, there is the alignment, and then there is the agreement. And in the past, you went straight from, I think it. Therefore they will agree.

A (21:42)

Yeah, I didn't mean to, but yeah,

B (21:44)

I know you did it. None of us. None of us mean to. Hence why you're surprised. Right. Like you were like, oh, but I thought, you know, I thought it would be so. Okay, so what do you want to do with this now? Now that it is what it is.

A (21:58)

Yeah.

B (21:59)

Because the frustration is coming from the place of surprise. Right. This is not what you had planned.

A (22:04)

Yes.

B (22:04)

Yet here we are. That's the frustration.

A (22:07)

Yeah.

B (22:07)

Just it doesn't align with what you

A (22:09)

thought would happen a hundred percent. And I think I'm afraid of hitting another ceiling. And that's. It was just very off putting to hear that. Oh, well, because you're a shared service, you're not going to grow even though. Yeah. So, yeah, it makes sense. What you're saying makes total sense.

B (22:27)

Those are also two different things. And I'm curious about, you know, are you seeing them separately? Are you lumping them into one? There's your shared services, therefore you are not going to grow in terms of what? Resources, budget. Right, right. And then the second is your shared services. You're not going to contribute to our growth, which I'm not hearing that part.

A (22:52)

Hmm, Interesting.

B (22:54)

Okay, but check me, right? Is that what you're hearing well now, I don't know.

A (23:00)

I think I, you know, I thought that if we are contributors to growth, then we're the ones that are going to get invested in, much like sales. I mean, and I understand, I'm not. Sales should be invested in as well. But it's not just him. I mean, I don't want to put it all on him. It's the whole executive team. If their statement positioning is, well, we need to invest in sales because that's how we get more revenue, then my assumption was, okay, but we're also contributing to growth, therefore you're going to invest in us. But I'm, yeah, I hear, I hear what you're saying.

B (23:38)

So that's one assumption. And I'm not saying it's false. I'm not saying it's true. It is. Assumptions are. Assumptions are assumptions.

A (23:44)

Right.

B (23:45)

Okay. What else might be true? How else could you interpret what's happening right now? One story is exactly what you just said. What do you think the CEO story is?

A (23:58)

I think that, well, again, it feels like I'm just making more assumptions when I try to put forward myself in his position. And I'm trying right now.

B (24:09)

We're just kind of scenario, we're just playing around with it right now.

A (24:12)

Yeah, I hear you. Okay, so I think, you know, I kind of touched on this before, but marketing functioned under prior leadership as a request taker and output deliverer. And that's important, but that's not fundamentally, philosophically the way I see the department advancing into the future. So my fear is, oh, so he thinks all marketing leaders are going to perform at the level that prior leadership has performed in this department.

B (24:51)

Okay, so I want to go down this path a little bit. Right, that's your fear that if you went and asked, well, like, what does this actually mean in terms of how you view marketing? And he responds, oh, like I just see you guys as like order takers.

A (25:09)

Right.

B (25:10)

Where would that leave you?

A (25:12)

Really frustrated. It would leave me feeling like, okay, that's not the way I want us to be viewed. And so I need to figure out a way to change the perception. Again, that's where I get stuck. I'm not sure how to tackle that.

B (25:32)

But in a way, like what I hear you saying is you're holding back from finding out whether that is actually what they think or what he thinks because you're concerned that it may validate your worst, the worst case situation for yourself. The way that you're interpreting it is as the worst case situation. Because either Way you said, I think this is what they think. Yeah. So by checking it out, what you would really be doing is validating or misvalidating your assumptions so that you actually know what you're dealing with.

A (26:03)

Yeah. So forget the mansion for now. Let's just figure out what we're actually.

B (26:08)

Because if you know exactly what you're dealing with, what does it allow you to do?

A (26:12)

At least make a plan accordingly. Right.

B (26:15)

Yeah.

A (26:16)

And yeah, instead of planning off of assumption.

B (26:19)

Yeah. It would allow you to make a plan. And I would actually say it would allow you to make multiple plans. You would then be able to say, okay, well, what options do I have?

A (26:27)

Yeah, right.

B (26:29)

You know, one response could be, yes, you're the order taker. Right. Option number one, I got to try to convince them otherwise. Option number two, okay, we're going to operate within this. Option number three, I don't know if I want this anymore. Yeah. Okay.

A (26:46)

Yeah.

B (26:47)

And not saying it's comfortable, but you would be dealing with the actuality rather than the story, right?

A (26:56)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

B (26:58)

And it could be that maybe. Well, I don't know, the reason behind the move is different than the way that you're interpreting it.

A (27:08)

Yeah.

B (27:09)

Like, what other reason could a CEO, your CEO, make the same decision that he made? Besides marketing is just an order taker, what other reason could there be that drove this decision?

A (27:29)

Obviously, financial. And, you know, that's a big thing, you know, from my corner of the kingdom perspective. Okay. So if we only have a finite amount of resources and budget to invest in certain departments with, wouldn't you want to focus on the departments that are going to scale and drive more revenue? Right. And so I think perhaps, even though that's how I see it, maybe there are strategies that are not being spoken openly to me that are driving this decision.

B (28:14)

Right. Because right now you're fully operating from the way that you see it. Even the words you just used from the corner of my kingdom. And I think a part of this is being able to fly over the whole kingdom and understand the whole kingdom from a drone perspective rather than from your corner perspective. You need to position yourself up in the tower as though you are looking at it from the CEO's perspective to understand what are the assumptions that are driving this decision, so that then you can truly decide whether there's alignment or not. Right. And if you don't know what they are, then what could you do? Because you just said they're not being shared with me. I understand that that's their part, but I'm not coaching them.

A (28:54)

Right.

B (28:55)

So how could you get more line of sight into what those assumptions are that would then help with the alignment piece?

A (29:03)

As much as I don't like to admit it, I think that there are certainly executive leaders that I don't have enough face to FaceTime with. A little bit on purpose, if we're being honest, but that's probably, probably not the right reason. So maybe just carving out some intentionality around these other C suite executives and making sure that I'm also at least hearing from them as far as direction and vision.

B (29:31)

Yeah. I mean, it's so, it's so fascinating to me because there's a theme here, Right. Like, yeah, you know, what's the theme that you think I'm picking up on?

A (29:40)

That I make a lot of assumptions and from where, from my perspective, my limited.

B (29:47)

Like, you're in your corner and you're like, I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing in my corner of the kingdom and I'm gonna deliver value. And they'll see. They'll see.

A (29:56)

Right, right.

B (29:58)

But you don't operate in a vacuum. What you are demonstrating is having a very strong functional hat. Yeah. Which is important. You're the head of marketing. Right. You want that strong functional hat. But in order to be an effective leader, particularly at the C suite level, you've got to be able to not only wear the functional hat, you've got to be able to wear the enterprise hat, which is, let me understand how all of these things work together and why these decisions and trade offs are being made. Because you play both roles.

A (30:32)

Right, Right.

B (30:33)

Okay. And you can't do that from staying in your corner.

A (30:37)

Yeah.

B (30:38)

You can't do that by not asking the questions, by checking the assumptions. Right. This is what I'm assuming. What are you assuming? You know what's driving this decision? What are the implications of this? What are you now expecting of marketing given that the investment has shifted? Sure.

A (30:57)

Yeah. So instead of coming at this with shock and fear and okay, I'm just gonna spin the narrative better, tighter, harder. It would have been better and would be better. I don't think it's too late to come at this from a place of curiosity and asking questions and trying to understand more of what's going on beneath the surface than trying to push my own agenda here.

B (31:24)

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it'll be better, but it's certainly another approach that you haven't tried. You know, maybe it's moving from. You stated on the outset that you're Very competitive. So maybe it's, instead of taking a competitive posture, take a curious posture.

A (31:40)

Yeah.

B (31:40)

And my question for you is, like, let's play that out. If that's the approach you took, what are the possibilities that you think it would give you? Hmm.

A (31:50)

Yeah. I think, you know, being such a new leader, and honestly a new employee and particularly a new leader in the company, I think in order to get the visibility into the reasons behind decisions that I am wanting to get, I probably need to make myself a little more visible and accessible to the other leaders in the organization. Because I have experience, I'm very qualified to be in the role. But it's hard to see that if you're only looking at me and you don't actually know me, you just know I'm very new. And I think that's where I would love a little guidance on how to overcome and really position myself as someone who wants to understand rather than just, you know, create a beautiful vision board.

B (32:42)

Yeah. We'll dive into what Elizabeth can do next when we come back. If you're a planner and a striver, it's very easy to get tunnel vision as to how you're going to make an impact. Elizabeth had big goals, goals for her team and the pivotal role it can play in the organization. But realizing that she and her boss may not be on the same page made her question her position and feel stuck. But she doesn't have to stay stuck for long by better understanding the assumptions she was making. It helps her open up other possibilities. This is an important exercise for anyone leveling up their leadership at one point or another. It's not just about being excited, exceptional in your function, but about better understanding, how to connect the dots. Now Elizabeth is faced with a new kind of plan to work on. A plan to build the relationships, ask the questions and gain the insights. She needs to have an enterprise level view that will help ultimately with the roadblock right in front of her. And throughout the course of her career, let's work through some concrete next steps she can take. So first of all, like, kudos to you for recognizing making that shift in the few minutes we've been together of like, oh, like maybe I could be a little more curious. Right. And in no way do I think that this indicates that you should abandon your agenda. Right? Like, sure, you still are interested in making sure that marketing is a contributor to growth. I think the question is how now, given these shifts, right. Like you had a vision, you got evidence and confirmation that that vision ain't it. You might be on that boat, but everybody else is on a different boat right now.

A (34:42)

Okay, Right.

B (34:43)

So the question is, what you are looking to solve for is how do I still ensure that we, as a marketing organization, are contributing to the growth of this company within the parameters that I now have to operate in? Which is, you know, that's a very real leadership tension that if you didn't face now, at some point, if you plan on being in this game for a while, you are going to face. You're just learning it a little earlier. Okay, so that's one. So your question is, okay, well, then how do I make sure that I understand the whole imagine I'm sitting with the CFO right now or the CEO and they're asking me the same thing. Like, I kind of want to better understand what's going on with marketing. Why is Liz making the decisions that she's making? Because they're shocking to me. I'm shocked that she thought she wasn't. Shared services. Like, let's imagine that they're sitting in front of me. Okay. Or in front of you, and I say, oh, yeah, this is how you can, like, be more curious with Liz. What would make you know that they are seeking to understand why you're coming from that position?

A (35:57)

Hmm.

B (35:57)

How would you experience them? What would you have to see, hear? What would give you indication of that?

A (36:03)

I mean, I think having them ask me would be a great starting point. And to an extent, you know, my boss has. There's, I think, still a lot of misconception around what we're doing from the vantage point of other executive leaders in the company. And so I guess carving out some intentional time to sit down with me and, you know, if they have specific questions about specific initiatives, then to ask me or just what direction do you see the department heading in overall? That would be a great starting point, because then I would feel, oh, okay, so they really want to understand.

B (36:49)

They want to understand. And what would you want them to understand? Not in terms of the specifics of the marketing plan, but, like, what I hear you saying is, what is it that would make you feel like they have a good understanding? What would you want them to look to understand or seek to understand from you?

A (37:04)

The way that we contribute value to the overall organization.

B (37:08)

Okay. So in a way, it's. If they ask me questions about what we do, if they ask me questions about how what we do contributes value. Right. The implication, the contribution. And I'm just going to add one more just because you've mentioned it a lot. If they ask Me, questions about what I think, about what we do, what are the assumptions that drive what we do, how we do it, why we do it? Because if they understood your assumptions, what difference would that make for you?

A (37:46)

Yeah. Then they would understand my whole approach to the future of the team and the company from a philosophical standpoint, from a direction standpoint, from a. Yeah, from just a holistic. Okay. So this is. This is the way we move forward in the world.

B (38:07)

Right. Okay, great. So if they had that full understanding, Right. In the way that you just described it, and still decided at the end of the day that marketing was not going to be invested in as much as you had hoped, what would that leave you with?

A (38:29)

I mean, obviously I would be disappointed that. That would be difficult for me. If they really understood the whole vision, and I mean, not just, you know, support value, but monetary value that. That we have the potential to bring, then I would think that they'd want to invest in that. But if they don't, for whatever reason, then I would have to push past my own personal bias of I can't stand being in a place where I feel like I'm been cut off at the knees and can't grow the team, grow the vision. I think I would have to just push past that somehow and determine how we can best add value with what we've been given.

B (39:17)

I mean, in a way, like you could rest assured that they made that decision knowing everything.

A (39:24)

That's true.

B (39:25)

With full understanding. Right?

A (39:27)

That's true.

B (39:28)

Right now you're operating from a place of they made the decision because they don't understand.

A (39:36)

Yeah, that's true.

B (39:37)

That's true. So I think what we're unlocking here is you can't control ultimately whether they agree or not. Okay. What you can control is how much information people have to increase the chances of understanding so that when they ultimately make the decision, they are making it fully informed. But this was not your decision. Yeah, I'm sorry.

A (40:07)

Yeah, I wish. Wish it was, but. You're right.

B (40:10)

But that wish is not aligned with reality.

A (40:14)

Yeah.

B (40:15)

That's the CEO's decision. And maybe the CFO with the CEO, not yours.

A (40:19)

Yeah.

B (40:20)

Yeah. Right. So in that same way, the same way that you. We just played through how you would want them to understand your side of it, there's a question around. In what way do you want to approach your stakeholders so that you have a full understanding? Yeah. Regardless of what the outcome is.

A (40:42)

Right. Yeah.

B (40:43)

No, you're.

A (40:44)

You're totally right. Regardless of what the outcome is, we could at least Have a better understanding of, you know, high margin product opportunities. High margin growth opportunities. And I guess what I'm getting at is I could at least set up some type of quarterly, monthly, something reoccurring meeting with the finance team to go over. Okay, what are the price pressures? What are. What are the margins look like on this? What are the margins? What do we need to really push right now? Like, you know, there's things I could do to better align our direction with theirs.

B (41:16)

Yeah. Because, I mean, if you can understand what the assumptions are on their end and what the pain points are, you have a better chance of being able to frame your narrative in a way that's relevant for them.

A (41:26)

Yes.

B (41:26)

Of meeting them where they are versus from your corner of the kingdom. You gotta go to their corner if what you want to do is get them to say, oh, yeah, that's a great thing. Okay.

A (41:36)

Yeah. Yeah. All right.

B (41:38)

Okay. So I think there's a big lesson around this, around how alignment happens. Probably the biggest one being, you know, you gotta make the implicit assumptions explicit and check them.

A (41:50)

Yep.

B (41:50)

Right. Both others and your own. Okay.

A (41:53)

Okay.

B (41:54)

Okay. So now there's still this other assumption that is gonna kind of determine how you move forward, which is this. What does growth actually mean right now? Right. Like you are not being invested in further. But what does that mean in terms of being a driver of growth for the organization?

A (42:19)

Yeah.

B (42:19)

Has that expectation gone away? Is it the same? Is it like. No, no, no. Even though we are investing less, we're expecting you to do more.

A (42:30)

Yeah.

B (42:31)

Do you know, I think I have

A (42:33)

an idea, and that's interesting because I hadn't actually thought about it like this before, but I think the investments we have recently made that have, you know, I've spoken to with processes and making sure that, you know, we're aligned with sales and all of that are very new. So I could really focus on optimizing those that have just been put into place to kind of prove the vision a little bit before I start buying my bricks.

B (43:05)

Mm. Okay. But, you know, what I'm hearing from you is you're still on this. Like, I gotta get this vision across.

A (43:13)

It's really difficult for me. Yeah.

B (43:17)

I gotta get this vision across. Right.

A (43:19)

Yeah.

B (43:20)

And everything I'm gonna do is in aligned with getting that vision. And you could go down this path, but you haven't done what we just talked about, which is you haven't even checked, like, what are the expectations? Are they expecting you to still contribute there? And I understand what you're saying. You Kind of don't want to hear the answer of no. We don't expect you to do that.

A (43:38)

Right. Yeah. That's fair.

B (43:40)

Yeah. But I'm going to tell you, if it is a no and you don't find out, you're going to come back to me six months from now and you're going to say, oh, my God, I'm shocked because here I thought. Here I thought that I was supposed to be doing this and I just found out that I'm not.

A (43:58)

Right.

B (43:59)

So it's up to you. Like, which do you want to operate knowing eyes wide open what the CEO's expectations are, and then make a decision whether you want to lead accordingly or do you want to lead according to what you think should be right, even though it's not really your decision. Your decision exactly.

A (44:25)

Okay. Yeah. So the vision is not as important as the understanding right now?

B (44:31)

Well, I think the understanding comes before the vision.

A (44:34)

Yeah. Right.

B (44:35)

I think if what you're trying to do is get people aligned on a vision, maybe you gotta understand where. What your starting point is. Yeah.

A (44:44)

Yes. Which is the. You know, you're right. I think I have procrastinated on that bit a little bit. Just because.

B (44:51)

Have you ever. I'm dating myself now. You know the movie Field of Dreams? Yes.

A (44:56)

Yes.

B (44:56)

Yeah. You know, you're kind of operating in a little bit of like, if I build it, they will come.

A (45:00)

They will come. Yeah.

B (45:02)

I mean, maybe I would love that for you.

A (45:05)

Right.

B (45:05)

And based on what just happened, you decide whether that's the way you want to operate or not. It's just an opportunity to operate a bit differently, if you want.

A (45:14)

Yeah. Okay, that makes sense.

B (45:18)

So let's try to get a little concrete now. So. So based on that. Okay. We got the shock. Yep. I'm shocked. But I get it. This is what this means. I am a shared services and I. I'm not going to get increased investments. That's all. We know what it means.

A (45:32)

Right.

B (45:33)

Okay. What is going to be on your to do list over the next couple weeks or month that will help you move forward from this conversation in a way that helps you move forward as the head of marketing?

A (45:51)

I think, obviously reaching out proactively to executives beyond just the CEO, but to him as well, and understanding what are the pressures that they're facing, what are the issues as they see them with the overall market, with the company, with, you know, the entire landscape of the kingdom. And once I have kind of established that, then maybe I could ask them a question along the lines of what does success in the marketing department look like from your perspective or something along those lines to kind of gauge, you know, their perception of us. And that way, at least I know what it is and then move forward from there.

B (46:39)

Yeah. Then at least you'll be able to truthfully say, is there a definition of success in terms of execution different than mine? Right.

A (46:49)

Yeah.

B (46:49)

Now, at that point, you can say, okay, now what do I want to do with that?

A (46:53)

Right.

B (46:53)

I don't want you to get frustrated before you've even found out what to be frustrated about.

A (47:00)

Yes, yes, I hear you. I appreciate that.

B (47:04)

Okay, so tell me how you're feeling now versus how you felt when you first came on the call.

A (47:11)

And, yeah, I'll be honest. I was kind of hoping you would just lay out, okay, this is the narrative that you need to spin in order to communicate the vision, and da, da, da, da, da. And so it's like you're a hundred percent right, because there was. I don't know how else to describe it. There was like a rug, and I knew something bad was underneath it, but I just didn't want to lift it up. And I think you've brought me a little bit back down to earth and talked me off the ledge a little bit with regard to we need to look at what's under the rug first before we even talk about narrative and positioning. And so I feel better, weirdly. I mean, obviously, like, I've avoided looking under the rug for a long time, so it's not something I'm extremely looking forward to, but I understand it is a necessary thing that has to happen, and I. I don't think I understood that before. And so in that sense, I feel a little more grounded with next steps and how I can better approach some of the other executives in the company.

B (48:13)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we could have come up with that narrative, but it wouldn't have been grounded in anything.

A (48:19)

You're right.

B (48:20)

It would have been a shot in the dark. And so the looking under the rug is so that you can now decide what narrative would not only serve you best, it would also serve the organization best. It's that integration. Right. What is the intersected narrative that will serve both marketing and where the company is going? Because marketing is not standalone. You're not alone in this kingdom. Okay.

A (48:51)

Yeah, no, you're right.

B (48:52)

I keep thinking about Game of Thrones, Right. Like, you can't operate just as one of the Seven Kingdoms, even though that's what they all do. Yeah. You want to operate with all the Seven Kingdoms. And so you need to understand what's the narrative that will support all of the seven kingdoms. Okay?

A (49:06)

Right. Right.

B (49:07)

So go look under that rug.

A (49:09)

Okay.

B (49:10)

And then take it from there.

A (49:12)

Okay. Thank you so much.

B (49:19)

As we turn the corner in this coaching conversation, the idea of staying curious bubble to the surface. Surface starting with curiosity will help in a lot of leadership and work related issues. Although of course it's just the first step. As we played out possible paths for Elizabeth, I encourage her to think through the worst case scenario. A lot of times we're stuck because we have a fear or discomfort, but articulating it and seeing what it would really look like can help us conquer that fear or at least move through it. I bring up these two two ideas as we close because I think they converge around a point I made in the coaching conversation. That understanding has to come before vision, that you can't start until you know what your starting point is. My hope for Elizabeth and for others in similar situations is that she walked away from the conversation with the realization that she needed to set her assumptions aside and do more legwork with leadership to get clear on the their position before she can move forward with any plan. That's it for today. Next up on Coaching Real Leaders, we'll have our first ever Ask Muriel Anything on the podcast. This is something that I do in my membership community and I'm now bringing it to the show. It's where I take questions from listeners like you about how to get unstuck from your most difficult work challenges. If you want me to coach you through an issue or have a question you want answered, head on over to coachingrealeaders.com and let me know. And if you want to unpack the episodes from Coaching Real Leaders, you can join me at coachingrealeaderscommunity.com where I host live discussions about each coaching session you hear on this show. You can also follow me on LinkedIn, murielwilkins and on Instagram oachmerialwilkins. A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you would go to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to. Subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. Thank you to my producer Mary Dew, sound editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, and my chief of staff Emily Soffa. Much gratitude to the leaders who joined me in these coaching conversations and and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. I'm Uriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.