How Do I Manage My Former Peers Now That I’m Their Boss?

Summary

Coaching Real Leaders – Episode Summary

Podcast: Coaching Real Leaders
Host: Muriel Wilkins (Harvard Business Review)
Episode: How Do I Manage My Former Peers Now That I’m Their Boss?
Air Date: November 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the real-life challenge of stepping into a management position over former peers. Thomas (a pseudonym) finds himself promoted quickly through the ranks and now leads a team that includes people with more experience—supervisors who used to be his equals and, in some cases, his mentors. The episode explores Thomas's struggle to balance authority and rapport, adjust his approach, and manage his own internal pressures while learning to motivate and lead effectively. Host and executive coach Muriel Wilkins guides Thomas through a one-on-one coaching session to unpack his experience, assumptions, and leadership habits, helping him identify strategies for building trust, navigating resistance, and leading with adaptability.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pressure of Sudden Promotion and New Authority

• Thomas describes his rapid rise from team member to manager-of-managers and the resulting personal and team tensions.

• Key Insight: The skills that propel individual contributors upward aren't always the same ones needed to manage former peers or navigate complex interpersonal dynamics.

  “Transitioning from being that help to being the one who called the shots was just maybe jarring for other people as well as it was for me.”
  – Thomas, 02:35

2. Challenges with Former Peers

• Thomas now manages two levels of supervisors; the higher-level ones have more tenure.

• He describes pushback from those who expected seniority to merit promotion, not his rapid advancement.

• Adjusting communication style for different audiences—what works for entry-level staff often falls flat with experienced supervisors.

• Fear of losing credibility if authority is questioned or undermined.

  “There was like a certain resistance because I was picked…over these people that had been there a lot longer than me.”
  – Thomas, 03:27

3. Impact of Internal and External Pressure

• Thomas identifies both external deadlines (pushed by directors) and his own high standards as sources of stress.

• Muriel highlights the effect of internalized pressure leading to more rigid, heavy-handed responses, pointing out an alternative mindset:

  “If the mindset was, ‘I’m going to do the best with what I have,’ perhaps that would have at least lessened the internal pressure and therefore changed your approach.”
  – Muriel, 11:30

4. Leadership Balance: Task vs. Relationship

• The need for balance between maintaining relationships/rapport and holding people accountable.
• Thomas recognizes his default is to focus on procedural correctness and high standards—what worked for his own advancement—but admits this creates distance.
• Muriel stresses that high-performing leaders do both: “developing the relational side while still driving the task.” (12:57)

5. Adapting Motivational Strategies

• Thomas tends to motivate himself through self-imposed pressure, assuming that method will work for others—a miscalculation, especially with more experienced colleagues.

• When a direct report stated, “I wouldn’t be such a problem if you had more rapport with people like me,” Thomas took it as avoidance of accountability, rather than an expression of what actually motivates them.

• Muriel encourages Thomas to consider the variety of ways team members are motivated and how respect and engagement look different for everyone.

  “Relationships are not one way. The question is, how do THEY feel respected?”
  – Muriel, 37:47

6. Rethinking “Respect” and Rapport

• Thomas defines respect as something earned through strong job performance, but Muriel challenges the assumption that this is universal.
• She suggests, “If I was talking to that person…maybe they would say…‘You know how somebody earns my respect? If they build rapport with me.’”
• The core insight is that leadership requires understanding others’ perspectives and tailoring approach accordingly.

7. Embracing Adaptability and Personalization

• Muriel offers the metaphor of the “dimmer switch”—not everything is on or off, soft or harsh; there are gradients in communication and managing style.

• Concrete strategies are proposed: take pauses before responding, use acknowledgment (“I hear you”), and personalize interactions based on the individual's needs and motivations.

• The homework: list out direct reports and intentionally adapt approach for each, meeting them where they are while retaining accountability.

  “That will work for three out of ten people…You can do that for SOPs…you can’t do that in conversation.”
  – Muriel, 43:46

8. Self-Reflection and Next Steps

• Thomas recognizes he’s been using one approach for everyone and sees the value in customizing for individuals.
• He notes feeling more optimistic after the session: “I cannot wait to challenge myself to change these little things, so that my overall success as a manager can be at a different level.” (45:38)

9. Key Takeaways for All Leaders

• What works for you may NOT work for everyone you lead.

• Effective leadership depends on adaptability, empathy, and understanding what motivates each team member.

• Meeting people where they are—rather than forcing everyone into your mold—yields better engagement (and fewer HR headaches!).

  “One of the most important things a leader can do is meet people where they are. That isn’t always easy. It will come with some experience, experimentation and trial and error.”
  – Muriel, 46:40

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the shift in mindset:

  • “You may not own 100% of it, but in every interaction you bring a certain energy to it. And that part you do own.”
    – Muriel, 07:43

• On the illusion of control:

  • “I feel like if I don’t carry myself that way all the time, then chaos will erupt and nothing will get done anymore, and I will let everything slide.”
    – Thomas, 20:21

• On the importance of flexibility:

  • “Instead of having an on and off switch, you have dimmers…There’s different gradients.”
    – Muriel, 22:08

• On adapting to team member needs:

  • “The onus is on you to meet people where they are. Okay, but it’s a choice. You don’t have to do it, but it’s a choice in front of you.”
    – Muriel, 40:11

• On homework and moving forward:

  • “List out all of them…If for the next week you met them where they are and still held them accountable, what would that look like?”
    – Muriel, 42:20

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–01:18 — Introduction and Thomas’s context for coaching
• 01:48–03:18 — Rapid promotion and managing former peers
• 05:14–06:47 — Managing pushback and maintaining morale
• 09:06–11:36 — Internal and external sources of pressure
• 12:57–14:41 — Balancing firmness with relationship-building
• 15:15–16:15 — Personal vs. team motivational tactics
• 17:05–22:27 — Learning from observation, avoiding management extremes
• 23:15–24:27 — Discussion on what the new “scoreboard” should measure (quality AND morale)
• 28:10–30:33 — Dealing with pushback and becoming less reactive
• 32:28–34:47 — Practical strategies for communication — pausing, acknowledging, using different tones
• 35:47–38:01 — Respect, rapport, and understanding differing values
• 42:20–43:46 — Homework: Personalizing leadership for each direct report
• 45:20–46:27 — Thomas’s reflection on coaching and optimism for the future
• 46:35–47:38 — Muriel’s closing thoughts and core lesson for leaders

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Conclusion

This episode is a hands-on, candid, and insightful look at the unique hurdles faced by new managers who inherit former peers as direct reports. It unpacks the emotional and strategic layers of leadership transitions and delivers actionable strategies for personal growth and team leadership. The key lesson is clear: Effective people management is as much about understanding and adapting to others as it is about setting high standards.

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For further guidance on leadership challenges like this, listeners are encouraged to read Muriel Wilkins’s book ‘Leadership Unblocked’ and check out her other resources.

Transcript

[A]

Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results with Indeed sponsored jobs. And right now, listeners of this Show Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.comrealleaders. claim your credit at indeed.comrealleaders Terms and Conditions appreciate I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Thomas to protect his confidentiality. He reached out because he's been struggling with making the shift into a people manager role.

[B]

I didn't think that I would be in the position that I am today. Moved up pretty quickly, which was surprising, but also fun and motivating because I had gone through a lot of rough periods in my life. All I do is work now. I put everything that I had into this job just so I could prove to myself that I could be successful at something. Once I started noticing that there was opportunities for advancement and things like that. So they gave me a team and I I've just been running with it and doing it the way I know how.

[A]

Thomas experienced a series of promotions in rapid succession and now supervises other supervisors, some of whom are his former peers.

[B]

And he's facing some challenges because of all the promotions. It's just been one new responsibility after another. One of the things that made me such a valuable and popular team member was his helping people that had been there a lot longer than me understand the little ins and outs. I guess I just got a better grasp of things for whatever reason than people who had been there a long time. So I was just always a huge help. Transitioning from being that help to being the one who called the shots was just maybe jarring for other people as well as it was for me because I came in so quickly and then achieved all this success. Just learning how to deal with people on a managerial level instead of on a teammate level has been the most difficult.

[A]

He feels like he's learning a lot and doing the best that he can, but in some ways he doesn't know what he doesn't know because what got him promoted aren't necessarily the skills he needs to use now. And as he shared, the rapid pace of change has hit him and those he works with pretty hard. So first I wanted to hear about why he's experiencing all this change as particularly difficult.

[B]

Well, see, there's two levels of supervisors that I manage now. One is a lower level. We'll just call them QA supervisors. And then the higher level is the shift supervisor level. The hardest part of it was dealing with the ship supervisors because they've all been there longer than me. There was like a certain resistance because I was picked by the former person who had my position. It was their option to pick who they wanted and recommend for this position. And I just happened to be that person over these people that had been there a lot longer than me. I interact with entry level people every day on our shifts and the lower level of supervisors every day. And I have, I guess, a certain way of talking to people. It is remote. So I kind of word things the same way to everybody and just try to maintain a simple verbiage across the board. And I guess when you're dealing with people who are right below you, that verbiage doesn't always work. I've been talking too about switching up the way I do things just a little bit, so it doesn't seem like I'm harping on people. Things of that nature and just really finding the right way to address people has been a little challenging. Dealing with the people that are directly below me that have been here longer than me has been the biggest challenge. I guess making sure that I don't bring down morale, but at the same time that I do have the. That heavy hand because there's just been like a lot of pushback from a couple of the supervisors. So just maintaining a good balance while also maintaining a strong presence when dealing with these people, I guess, would be the main thing.

[A]

Okay, so let's break that apart a little bit. Like, what would it look like for you if there was strong morale? What would be different than what it is now? How would you know?

[B]

It's not everybody that I deal with that is a problem. It's just certain. Limited to a select few now, but, you know, certain interactions with a couple of people that I have to manage where they've been there a lot longer than me, I am in charge. But they just use their time there that they have under their belt to kind of give them a leg up to push back. And, you know, I started individual meetings. I met with like, the main one that gave me problems and they told me, well, I wouldn't be such a problem if you had more rapport with people like me. But you know, I, I, I feel like I have pretty good rapport with everybody except, you know, the people that are giving me problems. And I don't feel like that's any fault of my own. I feel like that's because of how much they have worked or, you know, their personality. So just touching bases with people and, you know, finding a way to give direction without seeming like I'm being abrupt or harsh, I guess.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So you want to maintain rapport. Right. Not damage the relationship while still holding them accountable.

[B]

Yeah, because one of the things that did affect me, I was like, well, now I'm this guy and I, I have to do things like this. They, I cannot let anybody, this is not the person that I am, but this is just the thought process that I had. But I was like, I cannot let anybody subvert my authority. And you know, any little thing will be visible to others, you know, any pushback and that will affect my overall corporate credibility with the rest of the team and how well the rest of the team takes me seriously. I got into a little, a couple of small exchanges, I guess we'll call them. And I may not have handled it right in all circumstances, but I feel like I am understanding what it means a little bit more now. And it's really about the verbiage and about how you portray yourself in every interaction. So, you know, you can't let the bad interactions define you, I guess.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And look, I mean, first of all, kudos to you for, because you just, in the short time that we've been together went from I'm not the one to blame to now owning you're part of it. Right. So you may not own 100% of it, but in every interaction you bring a certain energy to it. And that part you do own, you know, because it's yours. The other thing that you said, which I think I'm kind of curious about, is you said, this is not who I am. But that was my thought process. And the thought process around I need to show up as credible then led to you kind of being a little bit more heavy handed, perhaps with your words in the way that you described it. So let me ask you a question. We're going to kind of roll the tape back. Football season just started, so we're going to sort of gotcha that way. Right? Don't test me any more on football more than that because I don't know. But, you know, play the tape back. So let's say you were to go back to the beginning of when you took this newest role. What do you think your thought process could have been? What kind of thought process could you have held that would have led to a different outcome than where you are now? Meaning? And that different outcome being higher morale, better rapport with people, with some of these people, not everyone, because clearly you have it with most, but with a.

[B]

Few, I guess it boils down to letting the pressure of the moment get to me and trying too hard to get adjusted to the position, because I feel like that did fuel some of my bad interactions, was the pressure that I was on as being such a new face in the company and being the face of the team at that point in time was just worrying about how well I was going to do instead of just doing as good as I could, I guess. So just approaching it from a different mindset because there was a lot of stress, like, I've never been in a managerial position like this. So just the quick adjustment to you are a part of the team, to this is your team, deal with it. So have fun.

[A]

And I'm curious, Thomas, who was putting the pressure?

[B]

Well, I guess it was a kind of a snowball because like I said a moment ago, the director did give a time limit. They were like, well, we want the transition done by this day. And so them putting pressure on the person who I took over for, and then the training being so quick, and then me putting pressure on myself as well once the transition did happen. Because there is no handbook for how to do this. The steps were laid out very minimally. And giving something to a person that honestly doesn't know how to do that job very well at all just creates a lot of stress internally.

[A]

Yeah, the stress internally. And so there's both external pressure and internal pressure, one that you may not have control over and the other that you do have control over. But what's clear is now is that when you put that pressure on yourself, what it leads to is you then saying, I've got to be able to do this right.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I've got to prove that I can do this to myself. And what you're suggesting is if the mindset instead had been, I'm going to do the best that I can with, quite frankly, what's been given to me, which, as you said, was limited training, you're sort of thrown in, you haven't done this before, that if the mindset was, I'm going to do the best with what I have, perhaps that would have at least lessened the internal pressure and therefore changed your approach, correct?

[B]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[A]

Okay. All right, so let's fast forward to today. If you were to use that as the mindset today, what difference do you think that would make in terms of, as you called it, your verbiage and your communication approach with these folks?

[B]

In my opinion, from what I'm seeing now, since the mindset or the approach that I take to things really determines how everything goes as a whole, if I'm very laid back, it affects the rest of the members of the team, and they get real laid back. If I push too much, though, then that is also a drawback because it affects the stress of the other people's performance. So if I can't do it one way or the other, I have to find a very medium area to operate in. So if you're talking about today, it would be more of hitting both sides of the box and making sure that I'm not too over the top and I'm not too laid back. So I guess just striking the right attitude every day that I clock in anytime that I interact with anybody, not being too positive, but not being too negative. It's just the happy medium is where the best, you know, outcome is.

[A]

It is a balance. Right? It's a both. And because what we're not talking about is that you're dropping accountability and you're just like letting you know anything goes you're good with. Right? Yeah, because that would be very passive. And that's not what we're talking about, you know, so this is not about laid back passivity. It is about ensuring that you are, again, developing the relational side. What you're balancing is maintaining the relationship while still driving the task, which is both sides of leadership.

[B]

One of the difficult parts of it and also a big focus of mine, but it was a huge stressor. A lot of the interactions that I was having with the higher level of supervisor, but not just with that level of supervisor, but with the entire team that I manage. I guess part of the reason that I was promoted to this position was because I just have a really high standard that I operate on personally. I do everything as it should be. I don't cut corners. And it's easier to get that kind of performance out of the lower level of the supervisor because there's virtually no pushback from them. But, you know, when you're talking about the people that have been there for a long time and they're in terms of how they carry themselves when they clock in. It's a lot more difficult to persuade somebody else's work ethic to try to get it to where I want it to be when, you know, they've settled in and. And they operate how they operate. And you really can't ask for more without the pushback.

[A]

What you're sharing here is that there's not just one way of motivating. Right. Because you're talking about getting people to do things which, you know, beyond force. Right. And coercion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There are other ways. And you've got to motivate them into action. And sometimes it comes down to, hey, just because I'm your boss, you're gonna do it, and that's enough. Right. That's a hierarchical way of getting things done. And now you're dealing with people who are like, oh, you might have the title, but you don't have the experience, so you can't play that with me.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[A]

Right. So the question becomes one option you have is to say, well, this is how I get motivated, so I'm gonna motivate them in the same way. Right. And I think that's a little bit of what you've tried, because what you shared with me is what has motivated you to do the work and what allowed you to kind of double down on doing the work is you wanted to prove yourself. So there was a level of pressure that you put on yourself.

[B]

Yes, ma'.

[A]

Am. That motivated you. I think that where there might be a little bit of a breakdown is you're using that formula and thinking it's gonna work for other people. Meaning if I put pressure on other people, that they're also going to do what they need to do. And I think with the example you gave is this one person said, that doesn't work for me. What works for me. And they actually gave you the answer. What motivates me is the rapport, the relationship. And so now you have a choice.

[B]

Yeah. And when they told that to me, when they made that very statement, you know, the thought process at my time was, you just want me to be friends with you, but you don't want me to come down on you. That's how I took it personally. And I was meeting with them on an individual basis, and they kind of shifted the conversation away from, hey, I'm here to address the issues at hand, from them telling me, you're still very new at this position, so this is what you're doing wrong. And I felt like that conversation was a failure on my part. Not because there wouldn't come a point where I could adequately handle that conversation, but because it was such a new conversation for me to have and the flow of the conversation just not go the way I expected at all.

[A]

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[B]

You know, I really have thought about it. Unfortunately, one of the things that I do is nitpick myself.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

As well as other people sometimes. So, I mean, there is a side of me that understands what they're saying, but the operational side of me, the work side of me, doesn't want to give that area that they're referring to space, if that's a good way of saying it.

[A]

What would happen if you did?

[B]

I feel like I run myself in such a way that I do not have, like, a on off switch or, like, a medium. It's just one way or the other. Like, I'm doing my job, and everybody else is doing their job how they should, because I feel like if I don't carry myself that way all the time, then chaos will erupt and nothing will get done anymore, and I will let everything slide.

[A]

Is that true?

[B]

That's how I feel.

[A]

I know it's how you feel, but there's a difference between how we feel and what's actually true. I can feel like I want to have a chocolate chip cookie right now. Right. Is it true that I need a chocolate chip cookie right now? That's questionable.

[B]

That is a great point. So I guess no would be the answer.

[A]

I don't know. I mean, I'm just putting it out there. I'm actually asking, has that happened? Do you have a track record?

[B]

I don't personally.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But coming up, there were supervisors who did train me before, and then I saw how they operated, and then, you know, just getting a feel for the company. Before I got this position and seeing how everybody else did things, I looked at this person, and I was like, well, they're very positive, but they do make a lot of mistakes. And then I look at this person, and they are extremely laid back, and their shifts that they run get pretty crazy at times. So I've kind of based how I operate off of the mistakes of others, I guess you could say. So that is where that mindset that we just discussed came from.

[A]

Yeah. And that's great because you're learning, Right. You're a learner. You observe, and you're like, oh, okay, I'm not going to do that. But you're swinging the pendulum way to the other side, which then, you know, I don't know, maybe five years from now, I'll be speaking to somebody who's like, oh, yeah, I worked for Thomas, and I saw what happens when you, like, just bear down on people.

[B]

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

[A]

And that's counterproductive, too, because either way, you're ending up with the same outcome, which is counterproductivity. Those supervisors that you observed weren't getting to the outcomes that they needed, and you kind of aren't either, because, as you said, yes, the job is getting done, but, boy, it's causing a lot of exertion of energy that could be channeled otherwise. So I think you've used the word balance. You know, it's somewhere in the middle. It's not this on and off. It's. Instead of having an on and off switch, you have dimmers. You know, how light switches now it's like you can do the dimmer, and you can. There's different gradients. Right.

[B]

But is it okay for me to ask you a question?

[A]

It's always okay for you to ask a question. You know, anything.

[B]

So you talked about channeling that energy into different areas. I mean, just talking to somebody with more experience, what would those areas be? Because I am such a procedural, operation focused person that I'm always looking at, Was this done correct? Was this done correct? Was this done correct?

[A]

All right, let me kind of throw it back to you a little bit. Right. One way to put points on the scoreboard is, particularly from your background in quality assurance is like zero mistakes means winning.

[B]

Exactly. Yes.

[A]

All right, so that's one version. What if I told you the scoreboard going forward was efforts at zero mistakes? Right. And high morale? So you get points on the scoreboard for both quality work and high morale.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Not just quality work.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What would that change for you? What would you do differently? And I want you to get, like, action oriented. If that was the scoreboard starting tomorrow, what would you do differently going in?

[B]

I could start it today because I actually have to work in a little bit, so.

[A]

Great.

[B]

I. I guess that would be really challenging myself in my interactions with others, because it's not that I don't care at all. I was really good friends with a lot of people that I manage now. But one of the things that I had to do or that I felt that I had to do when I got this promotion was distance myself from the people that I manage, Which I'm really not sure how true that is or how effective that is, but in my mindset, I was thinking, if I'm still friends with these people, then there's favoritism that I could give, and then there's favoritism that they would expect. You know, I do like people more than others. Some more than others, so. Which is Not a good quality for a manager to have. So to avoid all of that, I just distance myself from everybody, and I kind of feel like it's not the person that I am, but I am a little bit more cold and robotic in my interactions. What that would mean, starting today would be bringing the positive from a sincere place and, you know, turning that switch back on to where I could interact on a real level instead of just on a professional level. At certain points when it is, you know, applicable to where they could realize, I mean, in my best hopes, what they would finally see is, well, he was just having the growing pains, and he is finding a balance. And, you know, just. Just really watching my interactions with people.

[A]

I think your interactions is where the magic's gonna happen, right? I think it's interesting to me that you separate out, like, this is me being professional and that this is me being personal, and the two can't coexist. You know, you're you, right? Like, Thomas is Thomas. Okay. As much as we think we can kind of separate ourselves out that way, you can for a certain amount of time, but at some point, somebody's gonna pay the price. It's either gonna be you or it's gonna be other people. And I think what you're finding is it started with other people, and now it's rolling back on you. Okay, so the other term you're using is, like, being friends with them. And I didn't say anything about being friends. Who you want to be friends with, that is your decision. There is a difference between being friendly and being friends with everyone. Okay. What we're really talking about is maintaining relationship, building rapport. We're not talking about being everybody's best friend. So I want you to think about when somebody is trying to build rapport with you. Basically, they are trying to connect with you. We have to interact. And the interact, when you leave, it is pleasant. It's pleasant enough even if they told you something that wasn't great. What is the difference? Like, think about a situation that, you know, I always think about when I get a parking ticket. You know, you walk up and they're putting the ticket on the car. And there have been times when I walk away and I'm like, you know what? Even though they put the ticket on their car and they were in the wrong, it was still a pleasant interaction. And there are other times I was like. And that was a very unpleasant interaction. I understand what makes the difference for you. When you can determine as something. As a pleasant interaction versus an unpleasant interaction. Regardless of the news or what was being said.

[B]

So I guess it would boil down to, you know, one of the things that messes with me a lot is if there's any kind of pushback at all, it changes the whole tone for me and makes it a lot more difficult for me for the reaction or the result to be a positive outcome. So I guess I've noticed there are two kinds of people that I manage. And there are those that receive instruction without complaint, and then there are those that receive instruction because you gave it to them. But all in all, they're going to tell you how they feel about that instruction. So the difference to me is the people that I'm interacting with. But I know deep down there is something that I'm doing that isn't helping in general, regardless of who I am dealing with. So.

[A]

And Thomas, you are not alone. Okay. I love it. So you want me to tell you what the difference is?

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

It's in how you're receiving it. It's in how you're receiving whether somebody pushes back or not. When people don't push back, it's easier. You don't have to exert any more energy. You know that they're gonna do what they have to do, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then you can sort of, okay, go on your merry way and rest assured that you're gonna get those points on the scoreboard. Cause they're gonna do the work. There's something that happens for you when somebody pushes back and you react in a way where you're trying to mitigate things. Not working out what you said before, it's going to be a catastrophe now, which. Is that really what's happening? Because all I hear is that they're just pushing or they're voicing what they think. And so is there a different way that you could respond to or receive when somebody, quote, unquote, pushes back?

[B]

Yes, but I guess it really boils down to me being sort of a reactionary person. So I know the end result could really go a lot differently, regardless of whether they give pushback or not, based on how I handle the situation.

[A]

It could.

[B]

But, you know, because a lot of our interactions are over text, I can type something positive out, but it may come off as passive aggressive or not entirely sincere and just robotic because of the style that I have, which is kind of hurting in the long run. So I. I guess it just boils down to me hitting some kind of reset somewhere and maybe taking like a small break, maybe that would do it for me to where I Just have time to, you know, evaluate myself better. Some people can make changes in a day and some can't.

[A]

Yeah, and I don't. Look, most people can't make changes in a day if they're telling you they're making changes in a day. It's not true. I think you said, you know, am I being too reactive? Right. Like, reactive is when you keep doing the same thing over. Like, it's habitual. It's habitual. You know, it's like when you go to the doctor and they. I don't know if they still do that, but, you know, they take that little mallet or a hammer or whatever and put it against your knee and your leg goes up. That's reactive. You know, it's just an automatic response. Being proactive or having a conscious response is saying, oh, this came in pushback. And now what are my choices in terms of how I can respond? I can send the terse text. Right. I can not respond. I can listen and not engage and just. I can acknowledge and say, I understand. I can pick up the phone because maybe I don't want to risk my tonality being misinterpreted via text. I'm going to pick up the phone, I'm going to get on Zoom. And this is what we were talking about in terms of. It's like a dimmer light switch rather than an on and off.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. What you haven't done, it's not that, oh, my gosh, I can't do it. And it doesn't sound like you've really given yourself opportunity to operate at the different levels of dimming. So level one is I do nothing. Level ten is that terse. Maybe just do it. I don't know exactly what the tonality is, but the tone that really is like, ugh, Totally task oriented, not relational.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

In between 1 and 10, there's nine other different levels. And part of it is you gotta try them out. And I just suggested a few. You can acknowledge. Acknowledge doesn't mean agreement. Right. Acknowledge is just saying, I hear you.

[B]

Oh, I'm definitely gonna try that now that you say it. I understand.

[A]

I understand. Doesn't mean you agree. Yeah, right. It could be. I agree. It could be. Let me hear you out. Right. It could be. Okay, well, come up with a different solution. If you think this one doesn't work. Let's explore a different solution. Could be asking questions and exploring. It could be, you know, I get it. This is the way it has to be done this time. Maybe next time we can do It a little differently. But I think you ought to think about this. Pause is not a reset where you're distancing yourself from the job. It's a pause in terms of. Especially because you're getting it by text. Like you don't have to respond right away. Who says that? Who made up that rule? Yeah, for everything. But you know, if you're like, let me take a beat before I respond to this and let me think through what are the different levels of light? I don't have to be on fire and it doesn't have to be in the dark. What are the different levels of light that I can bring to this?

[B]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And one of the things I was going to mention is in terms of those levels and the rapport and how I get along with people, the people I'm struggling with in my company are only the people that I manage. I have awesome relationships because I'm not directly in charge of people in other areas with those people. And the rapport is very free flowing because there's no stress behind it.

[A]

Yeah. What you're alluding to here, Thomas, or what you're observing is the context of the relationship is different. You know, it's like I was hearing there's a amazing doctor, his name is Dr. Gabor Mate, and he was talking about parenting and somebody asked, I forget what the exact question was, but he was saying how in a family with siblings, there's often children who will say, well, I don't understand, like why you have this relationship with mom and somebody else has a different relationship with each of those kids experienced the mom or the dad differently because the context was different. I'm the last of four. By the time my parents got to me, the relationship was different. The way I experienced them was different because the context was different. So in a way, did I have a different mother than my siblings did? Yes, I did. Right. And so your context, you've articulated it. The context is different. These are your direct reports who have more experience than you. They are starting off from a different baseline than those folks who are more junior than you, who maybe don't have as much experience than you, who automatically give you maybe a little bit more respect just because of where you sit hierarchically. Whereas perhaps, I don't know, but perhaps those who have had more experience than you, maybe they're like, you know what, there's got to be a little bit more respect in the bank. You've got to give me a little bit more respect in order for me to Give you back what it is that you want, because I do have some experience.

[B]

I totally understand what you're saying. But, you know, the fact of the matter is, and I don't know if this is the wrong thing to say, but I am going to say it for me. Respect is earned by the job that you do. So if you are very careless at your job, I'm going to approach you differently than somebody who comes to work and does what they're supposed to and is happy to do what they're supposed to.

[A]

Especially.

[B]

It makes me lose a little bit of respect if you've been there for so long and have just settled into this very low standard for yourself when other people do not do that and they are very productive.

[A]

And that would, you know, you said in my. I don't know if this is wrong to say. There's nothing wrong with that. And it would be absolutely true if who you were working with was another Thomas. It would work for you, that formula. So that's what works for you. But it doesn't necessarily mean that's how respect is going to be worked the other way around. So this is what we're dealing with, is you're dealing with relationships. Relationships are not one way. The question is, how do they feel respected? Right. And I'm only basing it on the one data point you gave, but it sounds like maybe if I was talking to that person, I don't have the luxury of doing that. Maybe they would say, you know, you know how somebody earns my respect. If they build rapport with me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If they treat me as a human and as a person.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

Then it motivates me more to try to go to bat for them or to try to deliver. I'm not saying that's right or wrong either, but it is what it is.

[B]

It makes a lot of sense, though.

[A]

So much about management is about understanding yourself and checking your assumptions so you can always be adapting. But a lot of management is also about understanding that every relationship is different, that the way you interact with one person at your organization won't always work for another. And what works for you doesn't always work for others as well. As Thomas articulates his values, it's clear that he really appreciates when people work hard and get the job done. But in the case of one challenging relationship that he faces, it seems like for that person, the value is more about the rapport. In order to be an effective leader, Thomas needs to accept this, that the success of his interactions with others at work depend on context, whether that means where that person is in their career, their previous experience at the company, or even the mode of communication. Now let's see how he might put some of this knowledge into practice. So this now leaves you with a choice. You can continue down the path of I will respect you if you do things this way, because that's the way I earn respect. Or you say, let me try to understand what motivates these folks and what makes them feel respected. Because if they feel respected or if they feel related to perhaps, I'm not saying it's a guarantee. Maybe it increases the likelihood that they will do the work. Or at the very least, it just makes it a little less challenging. I gotta sit with HR a lot less around these issues. Right? Or at the very least, then I could say, but I am building the rapport, but they're still not doing the work. Or it gives me more equity to be able to come down on them when I need to. There's a question there around meeting them where they are.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

And that's the difference from when you were an entry level, more of a follower to where you are now as a leader. The onus is on you to meet people where they are. Okay, but it's a choice. You don't have to do it, but it's a choice in front of you.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, from everything that you've given to me, it seems like to an extent, if I do follow the route that you're pitching, that it could have a lot more benefits than my head thinks will be positive. If that makes sense. Like it will have, you know, a better end result than, you know, the terror and chaos that I imagined.

[A]

So, I mean, Thomas, look, I don't want you coming back at me and saying, muriel, I did you know, what were you talking about? Because I don't know if it will have a better outcome. What I do know is that it's something that you haven't tried.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And that's why I'm saying it's a choice. I don't know if you'll have a better outcome or if you'll be able to see things differently. If you dim the light from level 10 to level 7. I have no idea. But you know how we find out?

[B]

How?

[A]

You try it.

[B]

I got you.

[A]

Okay, you try it. You put the switch down just a little bit to level seven and say, well, can I still read? Am I okay? Did everything blow up? Because I went down to level seven? And then you adjust you course. Correct. That's Adaptability versus on and off, either this way or that way. That's not being adaptable.

[B]

That makes a lot of sense.

[A]

That's trying to force everything to fit within your construct, which is fine. But if it was fine, you wouldn't be sitting here in front of me. Yeah.

[B]

So I guess a lot of it too is just I hold myself to a certain standard and then I expect everybody else to be at that standard. But I did talk to the director a bit ago and she said everybody just doesn't work like us or, you know, there's different levels to what people put out. So you can't expect the same thing from everybody. And that was one of the best points that you made, was meeting them where they are.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And just figuring out how to direct the relationship in that aspect.

[A]

So here's what I would recommend. Okay, Take that. I want you to sort of list out your direct reports. You can do this after our meeting. Okay. List out all of them. You've been working with them a while. And ask yourself if for the next week, just going to do a little test for the next week you met them where they are and still held them accountable, what would that look like? It's an. And it's not one versus the other.

[B]

What it would look like is something that my head instantly freaks out as you're saying it, thinking, well, now I have to handle everybody slightly different, whether it's by 1 degree or 10 degrees, just because of, you know, how productive it would be to change gears so much with all the interactions that you have in a day instead of just being in a. Across the board 11, I guess you would say so just really personalizing the interactions to the different people. Because being over these people, I know I have already figured out what works for one person and what works for another. But where I've been lacking is not taking that into account when I deal with these people.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I just try to have that same across the board standard and that's. That will work for three out of 10 people. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

And you can't do that for everything. Okay. You can do that for SOPs, standard operating procedures. Right. But you can't do that in conversation. I mean, think about it. You're married, right? Like, think about everybody. I don't know how many people you dated before you ended up getting married, but I'm pretty sure you probably didn't date everybody the exact same way if you did. Great. I want to hear that story. Not now, at another time. And then this is people. Welcome to people management. Part of it can be systemized, for sure, because that's what creates fairness and equity and all that. And there are other parts where you are dealing with human beings who you are trying to motivate. And what motivates one person is different than what motivates another. And it's definitely not always what motivates you, because the context is different. And so part of your job, if the putting the points on the scoreboard is not just about getting the job done right, the task, the job is also getting folks to be able to do that work, motivating them to be able to do that work, and you've got to figure out what's going to move the needle for them.

[B]

That makes so much sense.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. So that's your homework. We've covered a lot, and I think we can land the plane here. Tell me how you're feeling now versus how you felt at the beginning of our conversation.

[B]

I came into this very tense, nervous because of the way that I am about how I would do and how well the points would come across, things like that. But with the interactions that we've had, I honestly feel positive. Seeing it from somebody else's point of view is always such a huge help when you have tunnel vision, you know, thinking that the way you do everything is the only way and the correct way versus what reality is. So I cannot wait to challenge myself to change these little things, so that way, my overall success as a manager can be at a different level.

[A]

Yeah, that's wonderful. That's really great to hear. And I'm going to say a little something. I think you're actually ahead of your homework already, because I think what allowed you to do what you did today is that you allowed me to meet you where you are, and you met me where I was.

[B]

Exactly. Yes, ma'.

[A]

Am. That's proof that you can do it. You just need to apply it in these other areas as well.

[B]

Yes, ma'.

[A]

Am. All right, thank you so much. This has been an honor to work with you.

[B]

Yes, ma'. Am. I really appreciate it. And this was actually a lot of fun.

[A]

While Thomas was newer to leadership, many of the issues he faced are ones that even the most experienced leader can face at any point in their career. The belief that what works for them works for everyone else. This can truly get in their way of motivating and developing others, as well as add layers of frustration in how you communicate. This belief that if I can do it, so can you. Is one I dig deeply in in my new book, Leadership Unblocked, because one of the most important things a leader can do is meet people where they are. That isn't always easy. It will come with some experience, experimentation and trial and error. But if you know what you're currently doing isn't working, the best thing to do is move forward by trying another approach that is within your realm of control. Managing yourself that's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time.

[B]

I don't have any aspirations to be.

[A]

Leader of the free world.

[B]

I don't necessarily want to own a.

[A]

Company, be the president, be the CEO. If you love the conversations we have here on Coaching Real Leaders, you'll definitely want to check out my new book, Leadership Breakthrough. The Beliefs that Limit yout Potential. You can order it now, wherever you get your books. And if today's episode resonated with you, I'd be so grateful. If you'd subscribe to the show, you'd share it with a friend or leave a five star review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. It's one of the best ways to help others find the show. I'd also love to stay connected. You can always find [e-mail] on LinkedIn, Murielwilkins and on Instagram oachmurielwilkins. A big thank you to my producer Mary Dew, sound Editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, my Chief of Staff Emily Sofa, and the entire team at hbr. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From the HBR Podcast Network, I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.