How Should I Plan for My Next Role When I’m Happy with the One I’m In?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How Should I Plan for my Next Role when I’m Happy with the One I’m In?"

Podcast: Coaching Real Leaders (Harvard Business Review)
Host: Muriel Wilkins
Episode Date: October 6, 2025
Guest (Pseudonym): Gia

Overview

This episode focuses on a unique but increasingly common leadership dilemma: How do you proactively plan your next career move when you are genuinely happy and thriving in your current role? Host Muriel Wilkins coaches Gia—an accomplished leader managing large, diverse teams—through her conflicting desires: to stay challenged and grow, while not losing the contentment she's worked hard to achieve. The coaching session explores Gia’s personal values, lessons from past career moves, managing fear of unknown outcomes, and how to approach career progression conversations intentionally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gia’s Current Career Context and Satisfaction

• Gia shares her past of finding (and not finding) the "right fit" roles, and for the first time, feels "completely in love with my job" and company culture.
• She attributes her thriving and creativity in challenging environments to her upbringing in a country with many everyday hardships.

  "All of those challenges, since you were born, make you creative because you have to find solutions every day to survive." – Gia (05:11)

2. The Challenge: Planning the Next Step Without Losing Current Fulfillment

• Gia is aware that staying in her comfort zone too long could stifle her growth, but fears leaving a great situation only to regret it.

  “What if I do it and I’m not good at it? … But also what if I don’t do it and I stop enjoying what I’m doing now because… you get into that comfort zone.” – Gia (05:04)

• She's seeking intentionality: “How can I continue to bring impact and not be scared of the next step and build that next step for myself and understand first, what is it? Second, what to do about it and how to get there right.” (04:40)

3. Defining Values and Intentionality

• Muriel guides Gia to articulate what matters most to her:

  • Managing large, diverse teams and creating psychological safety
  • Being challenged and having opportunities to grow
  • Working for managers and peers who support and complement each other
  • Company culture that genuinely values people and has real impact

• Gia emphasizes that money is no longer a primary motivator if a role isn’t a values fit.

  “If I’m happy where I am, I’m not going to go somewhere else because they offer me more money… this doesn’t bring the happiness.” – Gia (08:41)

4. Aligning Personal and Company Values

• They discuss how Gia’s values mirror her company’s emphasis on people and culture, suggesting that her optimal next move would be in areas or teams undergoing transformation, needing strong, sensitive leadership.

• Gia prefers roles with high cultural diversity and challenge (e.g. EMEA or APAC markets, customer-facing director roles) and is eager to scale up her team size.

5. The Fear of Choice and Making the Wrong Move

• Muriel uses the restaurant metaphor: with more choices comes fear—what if you don’t like the dish you picked? How do you “course correct”?

• Gia relates this to career moves: “If the food is not good… I would rather order something else and eat something I absolutely love… life is too short to not eat something you absolutely adore…” (19:38)

• Muriel reframes the fear of making the wrong choice as an opportunity to exercise self-efficacy and psychological safety for oneself.

  “What creativity is to me is the ability to deal with the unknown. If things were known, we wouldn’t have to create.” – Muriel (25:44)

6. Transforming Perspective: Focusing on Gains, Not Losses

• Muriel challenges Gia to focus on what she stands to gain rather than what she might lose.

  "What if your approach to this was not grounded in what you have to lose… What if it was grounded in what you have to gain?" – Muriel (29:24)
  “That’s a total difference… focus on what do I have to gain… let’s face it, maybe I also have to gain because it’s experience.” – Gia (29:56)

• Muriel uses the breath metaphor: “To live… you have to do both [inhale and exhale]. You don’t just exhale & you don’t just inhale… you look at them as a… there are things I might gain and there are things that I might lose. What does the whole picture look like? And does that whole picture fit with what matters to me…?” (30:36)

7. Practical Steps for Intentional Career Progression

• Gia identifies actionable steps:

  • Have transparent career growth discussions with her manager, being explicit about her values and motivations
  • Prepare her team for succession so she can move roles without disruption
  • Ask for support that is specific and “laser focused” to help bridge her to her next move, e.g., exposure to new geographies or teams

• Muriel coaches Gia on how to frame these conversations:

  “Break those questions up. Let him answer the first… and then it’s like, oh, so when you look at where I am now, what experiences do you think I would need to gain in the next year or two…? Let him share.” (36:30)

8. Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On intentionality:

  “It’s about really taking a look inside and taking the time to listen to myself… There are no guarantees… So I think it’s a stripping down to what is really important to me and fits my values.” – Gia (08:11)

• On self-efficacy:

  “Only you can understand how to create your own psychological safety… It’s not necessarily knowing what the plan is going to be. It’s knowing that if you were to take that next step, if it goes well you’ll be able to handle it… and if it doesn’t, you would be able to handle it.” – Muriel (26:09)

• On lessons from the session:

  “My main outcome from this conversation is look at what do I have to gain in the next step. … It was kind of here, but it was not organized and I was not asking myself the right questions. … now I understand that this is how I frame what matters to me, to myself. … And ask question by question to really understand also [my manager’s] opinion…” – Gia (40:21)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:57] – Gia describes her current happiness and sense of belonging at work
• [04:40] – Gia frames her challenge and her desire for intentional, long-term planning
• [08:11] – The definition of intentionality and the importance of values
• [11:51] – What matters to the company and aligning with personal values
• [14:15] – Gia’s thoughts on next roles, geography, and diversity
• [18:38] – The metaphor of choice, fear, and committing to decisions
• [23:44] – How Gia would handle making a move that didn’t work out
• [25:44] – Muriel recaps Gia’s resourcefulness and need for psychological safety
• [29:24] – Reframing from fear of loss to learning and gain
• [36:30] – Strategies for career progression conversations
• [40:21] – Gia summarizes her takeaways and new clarity

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Actionable Guidance

• Identify and clarify your core values and strengths.
• Frame your career development conversations around what matters most to you, being proactive and transparent.
• Approach change by balancing potential gains and losses, not just focusing on what you might lose.
• Embrace psychological safety and self-efficacy: trust your resourcefulness whether it works out or not.
• Request and define the specific kind of support you need from your manager/organization—don’t leave it to guesswork.
• Regularly ask yourself: What do I have to gain? What do I have to lose? What have I already overcome in similar situations?

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Noteworthy Takeaways

• Being content in your current role doesn’t mean closing off growth—it’s an opportunity for proactive, intentional planning.
• Fear of loss is natural but can be reframed as a chance for growth and resilience.
• The most sustainable career progression aligns your next steps with your enduring values, not fleeting perks.
• Agency in decision-making is strengthened when you organize your thinking, ask the right questions, and structure development conversations.

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Resource Mentioned:

• The Culture Map, a book Gia loves for understanding and working with global teams (12:36)

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This episode is an insightful resource for anyone at a career crossroads—or simply wanting to continue growing without undermining current happiness and success. Gia’s journey illustrates that the greatest risk isn’t always moving—sometimes it’s staying still. And the antidote is intentionality.

Transcript

[A]

How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com RealLeaders Indeed.com RealLeaders Terms and Conditions apply. Too many change frameworks are out of date for today's demands. Change SignSignal is the podcast for modern Change Mastery. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're an ambitious change leader, Change Signal will be your favorite podcast. I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Gia to protect her confidentiality. She's had a career spanning multiple industries and continents. Her previous role marked a turning point in her career.

[B]

It was the first time I was managing a large team and I found myself found myself in many different ways. Initially I found myself in a city that I absolutely loved and I felt really embraced and welcomed. I really was welcomed by the team and such a diverse team, which also I truly appreciate because it brings the right challenges for a leader.

[A]

Jiya then pursued a new opportunity at a different organization. She wasn't sure she would get that job, but she did and she feels really grateful that it's been the right fit for her.

[B]

There's many times in my life that I got the job and it was not the right fit for me. I can assure you that I was almost fired probably so many times in my career, you know, and now I'm so humbled by it and I'm actually thankful. I feel that over time I became more intentional and also more aware of my strengths to apply to the right jobs. The last two ones were exactly that case. It was really intentional. I really, really wanted them and I had a feeling that it was the right challenge for me.

[A]

Gia has now been at the company for about a year.

[B]

It's the first time that I am completely in love with my job. I absolutely love the company and the company culture sp especially and my peers and the team I manage. I truly feel I managed to deliver the impact and from the performance reviews that I received, even over deliver the impact that was expected. And I continuously feel challenged because, you know, when you manage a team that large, there's always something and I feel like I have the right level of care, curiosity to go into all of these situations in a very humble way, try to understand them and where people are coming from and finding solutions. So I'm thriving there and I love it. And I think it's important to say one more thing because I'm from. I feel that it shows me also why sometimes it's so important to have all of that pain and happiness of like being raised in a country like this with so many challenges, because all of those challenges, since you were born, make you creative because you have to find solutions every day to survive. And that brings you this level of creativity in finding solutions. And I think because of that, I'm thriving at what I do.

[A]

Gia is very content in her current situation and is thus facing an interesting challenge around how to plan her next steps when she's actually happy and comfortable where she is. I'll let her explain in her own words.

[B]

I feel like I'm at this point that I am in a very good position to really continue to be intentional to build my long term plan in the company I'm at. Of course I'm thinking a lot about it and I'm about to have career growth conversations where I am and I really want to pause and think of, okay, what does that look like for me if I look into my career? So far it was not a stare that you go from manager director and now I think it's that moment that I can really intentionally think about that. Of course it's not a short term plan, but it's how can I continue to bring impact and not be scared of the next step and build that next step for myself and understand first, what is it? Second, what to do about it and how to get there right. And at the same time there is always this fear in me like, what if I do it and I'm not good at it? Or what if I do it and I don't enjoy it as much as I'm enjoying what I'm doing now, but also what if I don't do it and I don't build this plan and I stop enjoying what I'm doing now because you know it's going to be like two years, three years and. And you get into that comfort zone and I really am a person that I, I love being challenged and I love Feeling curious about learning. And of course, at the same time, it's important to me, the validation, to feel that I'm delivering results and that I'm bringing impact as well.

[A]

So let me just step back and make sure that I'm hearing you fully. So you're in a place where you're doing well, right? For all intents and purposes. And you're starting to think about how do you intentionally. Is in your words, how do you intentionally think through what's next for you within this company?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay, so it's not about what's next for you outside, but more like how can you create a plan for yourself that gives you longevity within the company? And a part of that is thinking through what the possible next step could be. How do you prepare for that next step? And then the third component is, but what if I get there and then I don't like it? Or what if I get there and then I can't do it? So there's one side of it, but then the other side of it is, but if I stay in the position that I'm in and not look for that next step, I know myself, sooner or later I'm not going to feel challenged, and then I'll be stuck here and that won't be comfortable.

[B]

That is a perfect summary of it.

[A]

All right, so you mentioned that, you know, when I asked you what has changed over time, or, you know, you mentioned there were times you didn't get the right job or it didn't work out, but as you became more intentional, you were able to find roles like you're in today or companies like you're in today where the fit is way more aligned. So when you think, think about your desire now to be intentional about your next step. And you think about when you have been intentional. How do you define intentionality for you? What does it look like when you're being intentional?

[B]

It's about really taking a look inside and taking the time to listen to myself and to be honest with myself about, again, my strengths and my shortcomings, of course, investing time in it to work through it and really face it and making sure that you know that the decision is really thought through. There are no guarantees, and sometimes we get lured with external things that don't matter. So I think it's a stripping down to what is really important to me and that fits my values. And one thing tell you, that stopped mattering to me a while back. And of course it does matter, but it's not. The key component is money, for example, If I'm happy where I am, I'm not going to go somewhere else because they offer me more money, because I already understood that this doesn't bring the happiness and the motivation to enjoy what you're doing. That's what intention means to me.

[A]

Okay, so really honing in on what matters to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So let's bring that into the equation when we talk about your next step, as you're defining a next step for yourself. What falls in that circle of what matters?

[B]

I absolutely would need to continue to manage large teams because that's what I'm passionate about. And honestly, that's what I feel I can bring the most value. I wouldn't see myself as an individual contributor or managing a small team, because those are the problems that I love to solve is really like, how to make a team work together and have psychological safety and feel that they can grow and so on. So that is one thing. The second thing is definitely who is my manager? Because another thing I've learned in my career is that having a manager that also has a great. Not only a manager, but a team. So my peers, the people who report into the same manager, I honestly feel like all of these teams, they ideally would complete each other in a way. And I do feel like in the interviewing process, it's always good to also understand, you know, the management style. And again, no guarantees, because I could join a team and have that manager in, you know, six months in that person goes into their next career move. So if I can always, you know, manage those variables, I think those are the most important things.

[A]

So what matters to you is managing a large team because of all the ingredients that go into that, and you feel like that's a little bit of your superpower, right. Where you get a lot of juice and then also who your manager is, but also the larger team, maybe your peers, the interrelationships and interdependencies sound like they're important to you.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Okay, so what I hear from that is, whatever you do next, you would like those to be the two main variables and ingredients.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So help me understand. Gia, if we were to broaden this question and ask what matters to your company, how would you answer that? So if your company was a person, what matters to the company?

[B]

I genuinely feel that people matter to the company, and that comes out with the culture of the company. And another thing that truly matters to the company is the impact we have on the planet and in people's lives and having real values and not something that we just Put on when you.

[A]

Think about where you can optimize what matters for you and what matters for the company, what does that look like for you?

[B]

I guess probably teams that are going through hard times, that are going through change management have been without a leader for a while or a bumpy road. Teams that really are in need of care and they didn't have leaders that were know understanding of different cultures, et cetera, Very diverse themes because I truly love the diverse aspect. You know, there is a book called the Culture Map that I absolutely love. Love everything that goes around this theme. And working in emea you work with so many different cultures. Right. So I think that that's normally where I could probably bring the, the most impact in really, you know, bringing a lot of psychological safety and safety.

[A]

And so with that. Right. Teams that are going through a hard time, change management may have gone through a bumpy road, may have lacked leadership in the past. They're diverse in terms of culture is where you feel like you would be able to add value and actually what it sounds like, build on the strengths that you already have and just put them in a different situation. So with that as the profile, when you think about what's next for you, what could that look like in terms of a next step? How do you formulate that in terms of what's next?

[B]

I would love to have that answer. I believe that I would exclude already markets that things are not that diverse or maybe even markets that then I would not exclude if they are open to bringing diversity. Right. I'm in a very good place like physically because you have all of these countries and all of these, you know, it's the easiness to hire diverse and I would definitely, you know, think about location. I'm, I'm very open to, to moving and diverse. For me definitely Asia is a part of my equation because that sparks my curiosity because it's, it's, it would be diverse for me and I would learn a lot from it and maybe I could bring a lot of this, you know, diversity that I would bring to the table. So there are different aspects of diversity in terms of large teams. I definitely can see many instances where I could manage larger teams than, than I'm managing right now and that could be the next row above where I am right now. But it could also be, you know, any role in a director level that is in the customer facing kind of environment. So whether it's, you know, customer service, whether it's sales, whether it's E Com commercial, because I do enjoy people I do enjoy customers and I love working backwards from customers and listening to customers and always trying to build this bridge. So in that sense it can be as wide as operational roles or commercial roles.

[A]

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[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay, so what you're starting to see is there are different variations of what that next step could look like. Which is great because now you have choice.

[B]

Sometimes choices are great, sometimes they are scary.

[A]

Yes. What makes it scary, what if I.

[B]

Make the wrong choice and it doesn't work out and I take that hit like, you know, in the validation part of me that of course I need to work on. And it's like going to a restaurant and you have a really like long menu and you're completely like, okay, what Do I want to eat? And I know it's what we're doing here. Okay, let's go through blocks, right? Do you want to eat meat, fish? And then you go and you start to trim down. But that's the scary part of having choices.

[A]

And so what I'm curious for you, what does happen when you go to the restaurant and you get the dish and it's not the dish you like? What do you do?

[B]

Oh, well, it depends. I don't think we should.

[A]

No, not we. I want to know what you do.

[B]

Okay. That's a great.

[A]

Look.

[B]

That's a tough question, because I want to be mindful that we are in a world where food is so important. But in a scenario where I get to choose if the food is not good, I would rather order something else and eat something that I absolutely love, because I think life is too short to not eat something you absolutely adore or when you can. But also being mindful that I wouldn't want to waste food.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And again, I would probably feel that battle that I'm telling you right now.

[A]

I mean, maybe there's an and there, right? So let's, like, play this out. Cause I find this so fascinating. I find it fascinating because when sometimes, you know, we go out to eat as a family, and my partner will order a glass of wine, and they gave him a tasting, and he's very picky about his wine, and he doesn't like it. He's like, no, no, no, no. Like, I'll send it back. And my kids are mortified, you know, that he sent the wine back. And we're trying to explain to them, like, this is the beauty of the world, right? You have choice, you know? But he only got a little bit of the wine. He didn't let them fill the whole glass before he said. So I want to ask you, how do you translate this notion of being in the restaurant, ordering the dish, not liking the dish, and in your heart, knowing life is too short? Like, I want to enjoy the dish, and I want to be mindful of not wasting. How would you optimize both of those things? I know we're talking about restaurants, but I actually think there's something. How would you optimize. Yeah, how would you optimize both course correcting the choice so that it aligns with what matters to you, which is a dish that you like and making sure that it's not being wasted. What could you do in that situation?

[B]

I can only speak about myself, right? I can give ideas to the restaurant and I know. I can already imagine how to tie it to a job where you can do job rotation, et cetera. Right. It's what your husband does. It's kind of like a job rotation of the wine. Oh, I'm going to taste just a little bit. There is no waste. I'm not committing to this wine yet. Then you don't feel guilty about it with the food? Honestly, I think if it is really terrible, I'm definitely not gonna if it's terrible. I mean, to my taste, there is no problem with the restaurant and so on. I'm probably gonna, you know, not eat it, but stick to it and, you know, leave the restaurant and eat something at home, which is not ideal. Depending on the event. If it's a one time event, you know, opportunity in that restaurant and it's, you know, it's a restaurant that I've been wanting a table for so long, I will definitely order a second dish and just live with it. But ideally, you know, I would have a small taste like the wine, you know, you know, dish. We have like a tiny, tiny taste of it.

[A]

Right. And you could also say, which is what I do sometimes, right? When I'm not sure, I'm like, I warn the person bringing the food, I say, I'm going to order this. If I don't like it, can I get something else? So they agree before they even give me the dish. Right. That's my coping mechanism. That's my coping mechanism. We all have our coping mechanism. Okay, let's bring it back to work. Right. So how does all this translate to work for you? Let's say you found the job that you thought was going to give you all the things, the larger team, same role, or a different customer facing role, diverse. But then you get there and it's like, ah, this isn't the dish that I thought I ordered. What would you do?

[B]

Oh, wow. So I don't even have a chance to course correct before the dish. Let's do that.

[A]

I mean, you could, but let's assume you took it.

[B]

I would give it some time. I would give it some time. Because also what I've learned is that, you know, time has an immense ability to make things clearer. So the first thing I would do is really give it some time and try to understand what are the parts of the dish that are not making me happy in this case of the job that are not making or it doesn't feel like what I applied for and truly understand if over time those things are going to be a constant and they're always going to be there and therefore I'm always going to be unhappy about it. And I think at the end of the day, you have to be transparent about it when the time comes, you know, because it's only fair that you make a choice in a job that you've never done before, in a team that you've never, you know, worked with before. And it may happen that it doesn't work out, and it may happen that it's going to work out from my side, but it may not work out from the team side, from the management side. And I think it should be tied back to that psychological safety within the company of me, knowing that, you know, I'm. I'm valued. And now we're going to find something else and we're going to find something that is going to be a good fit and I'm going to owe my. I wouldn't even call it a mistake, but I would. I would own my choice or own it and course correct it, but face it and not stick with it just for the sake of.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's. So thank you for that. Because what is coming up for me as you're sharing this gia, is that in order for you to take any next step, which by the way, you've done before, like, you started off saying, like, part of why you've been able to move to different things and have jobs that didn't work out and then move to the ones and they did work out. And you've moved to a tremendous amount of different countries. And probably what enables you to really work with diverse teams where things are not the same across is because of, as you put it, the way you grew up, like it taught you to be resourceful, right? It taught you to be creative. And what creativity is to me is the ability to deal with the unknown. If things were known, we wouldn't have to create. But what I really appreciate about what you said when you say around like you find that what matters to you is creating psychological safety for others. What you're talking about now is creating psychological safety for yourself in taking these next steps. And one thing I know there's a lot that is talked about when it comes to the term psychological safety. And one thing that I think is important is only you can understand how to create your own psychological safety. Part of it is what we also call self efficacy. It's not necessarily knowing, hey, this is exactly what the plan is going to be. It's knowing that if you were to take that next step, if it goes well, you'll be able to handle it. And if it doesn't go as expected, even though you might not like it, you would be able to handle it. So let me pause there. How does that resonate with you?

[B]

It totally resonates. And thank you for reminding me of that. That I've done it before. I guess I had less to lose than I have now. Right. That's what makes this one really scary because I really enjoy where I am. But it's really good to be reminded that that's the thing for me, you know, the challenges part of life and the unknown is actually the beauty of it. And that's where I thrive. If there was no unknown, also, no company probably would need me because that's where all my childhood and teenager years and everything else built this strength of, okay, it's a challenge, let's unpack it and let's solve it.

[A]

Gia's challenge is around planning for her future career, even while happy and content in her current role. In part because of that contentment, one baseline to set with her in this coaching session was really articulating what she loved about her current role. Put another way, I asked her to define some of the values she holds most, most dearly in her work and how her role aligns with those values. That clarity can then help guide her along the path to whatever positions open up before her. But beyond the calculus of what an organization has to offer to make it worth her while, I also wanted to explore the risk and inherent fear that potentially lay behind this question she brought to the table. Because ultimately, to make a choice can feel like a race risk because it means making a trade off when what we want is to have it all. That risk might seem even riskier when you're jumping into the unknown from a comfortable position. Now that we've spent some time with Gia gaining clarity on what she needs to feel fulfilled in a job and why she might be apprehensive about making a change. We can now move forward with a proactive plan for her next career career move as opposed to a reactive one. But that may require a slight change in her perspective. I'm curious. What if your approach to this was not grounded in what you have to lose? Right, because you said you have more to lose now. What if it was grounded in what you have to gain? What difference would that make for you?

[B]

A total difference. Because, yeah, it's just shifting the focus. Right. Like it's the. The cup half full. Right. So, yes, that's a great, great point. I. I think it's more important to really focus on what do I have to gain about the thing I lose. Let's face it, maybe I also have to gain because it's experience. And if you face it the right way, it's always gonna, you know, sum up to your repertoire, professional repertoire, and personal repertoire. So.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, look like, here's the truth of it. It's never a zero sum game. It's not like all. You know, you're one person, so it's not like, you know, you're either losing or you're gaining. We're always constantly operating in both. You know, it's like your breath, like, you don't just exhale and you don't just inhale. Right. To live, I love this. You have to do both. You have to. I mean, try it. I just tried it. It doesn't work. I can't inhale for, like, forever. At some point, I've got to exhale. And so the capacity to be able to approach this next step is not from an either or. It's from a. You know, as I look at the opportunities that are in front of me, I look at them as a. There are things I might gain and there are things that I might lose. What does the whole picture look like? And does that whole picture fit with what matters to me, which is what you started with?

[B]

That makes total sense.

[A]

Okay, well. Okay, So I think you actually have some clarity around what a next step could look like. So what would you need to know, or what would you need to answer for yourself in terms of how you move towards that next step?

[B]

I guess that's the part where I have no clarity. There are definitely, you know, steps that are more straightforward. Right. I have a mentor in the company that I absolutely adore and having career growth conversations with my direct manager and being very frank and honest about them and making sure that I have a succession plan. So if I do leave in, let's say, one year time to another role, there is someone on the team that can step up, which. It's always the best approach. So really preparing the foundation, I think it's one thing, and the other part of the foundation is once I know what it is, what are the strengths that I need to gain that I don't have yet to get there, and what does it look for me to get there? Yeah, it's a very competitive universe in the sense that any role that I applied for, I would be competing with highly capable professionals, because that's what happens when I'm hiring For my team as well.

[A]

Right, right, right, right. What's interesting to me though is what you have outlined in terms of, you know, as you've been intentional, which you defined intentionality in terms of really being able to hone in on what matters. And that is what you're going for and that is why you've figured out you've been able to attain and companies where there actually is very tight alignment for you. What's interesting to me is like the way you articulated what a next step is is very specific. You know, it's very specific to what aligns with what you have articulated as your strengths. So I think it would be a great question to ask if you shared with your mentor or others, hey, here's what I'm thinking about as my next step, which is basically a scaling up of the type of team that I'm working with, leveraging my strengths in working with a diverse team, potentially being in a different geography or customer facing role. Is there anything that I need to be doing differently now that would increase my probability of being able to attain that type of role?

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

But I don't know, it sounds like you're leveraging strengths like you're not coming from a place of deficit, but that's something that you should test out with others.

[B]

Yes. That's amazing. I would love to have that power of communication you have. Muriel, come with me to the conversation.

[A]

No, no, no. Well, you tell me how. Let's say you're. Because you're about to sit down for career progression.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Career conversations. So tell me, like how could you frame what it is that you want? I don't know who you have that conversation with. Is it your mentor?

[B]

My direct manager.

[A]

Your direct manager. Okay, so I'm the direct manager. We get. What do you want to talk about today, Gia?

[B]

I guess I would be very transparent. You know, I'm having all of these conversations and I feel like I'm in a safe place and I would love to, you know, just honestly talk about and very transparently talk about my next step in the company. I absolutely want to continue in the company, but I feel like I truly want to bring more impact. And at the same time, if I feel about what I need, I also need to know that what comes next is going to continue to challenge me and spark my curiosity. And when I think about it, and I think about being very intentional about it, if I have to say chew, main aspects of the next role would be to manage and scale up a large team. So larger the team than the team that I manage now. And working with diverse teams and geography is not a problem. I'm a person that I actually absolutely love, you know, facing these challenges of moving into different geographies. So I guess, you know, first of all, knowing me and knowing my skills and knowing also my development areas and knowing the company for a longer time than I know, what is your view on that next step? What would you say it is and when do you think I would be ready for it? And also what would I need to do to get there? What are the development areas that you still see for me in getting there?

[A]

I mean, you got it. You got it. I think the only. If I may, if I could give you a little suggestion is break those questions up. Let him answer the first because it'd be interesting to hear his perspective. Does he also think that's the right next move? Does he have some other things around what the next move could be? Okay. And then it's like, oh, so when you look at where I am now, what experiences do you think I would need to gain in the next year or two or however long it takes me to be able to do that? Let him share. What do you think that timing is right? So scaffold it out, stagger it out so that you give yourself the opportunity to get all of the responses that you need to help inform how you best position yourself.

[B]

Okay, that makes total sense.

[A]

Okay, so now let's imagine you have this conversation, okay? And you have more information. What would be the one ask that you would have to your manager that would help you on this intentionality around what's next and moving towards what's next?

[B]

One ask. I only have one.

[A]

Let's start with one.

[B]

Okay, good. I want choices. You sold me choices. I guess support and support can come in many different ways, right? But, you know, depending on what that next step is, let's say, oh, I think a geography move would make a lot of sense and the APAC team absolutely would. You know, take so much value of having someone with your strengths, et cetera. You know, let's find synergy for me to go to APAC and meet the team and spend some time with the team there and still deliver to my current job, but also, you know, support me into selling myself and getting to know the right people and all of these support I've been having in terms of exposure to leadership, presenting and having a mentor. So I think it's this continuous support. Again, very intentional. Because once we know what that next step looks like, we can Be even more intentional about that support. So it's this continuous support. And the difference will be it's gonna be more laser focused, you know.

[A]

Okay, so there you go. You have your ask, right? And you can define what, as you said, what the support is that you want and need in order to keep it moving. Right. Keep this needle moving versus letting him figure it out. He might have some ideas. You wanna listen to that and you wanna also be ready to say, hey, based on what you've shared, you know, here are the two or three things where I could use support and what it could look like. Could you do that and then you follow up, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's very important to define how people can support you because the way most people think that they should support you may not necessarily be the way you want support. So make sure that you have that ready.

[B]

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's not something we should take for granted. Right. You may get lost in translation. And what I find is that, you know, really framing it and being very specific about things makes it a lot easier to, you know, align expectations. But at the same time, you know, it's not always we. We do this double check in communication. And I'm being very clear here. So thank you for that.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I mean, you have laid out the whole process for yourself. Now you just gotta go find it, you know? So tell me, I think we can hone in towards the end here. What do you feel, you know, now that you didn't necessarily have your arms wrapped around when you walked into this conversation?

[B]

I guess my main outcome from this conversation is look at what do I have to gain in the next step? And then, you know, from there. What I know now that I didn't know before we talked is it was all here, the whole growth conversation. It was kind of here, but it was not organized and I was not asking myself the right questions. You did, and you guided me through it. And now I understand that this is how I frame what matters to me, to myself. And from there it's easier for me to really understand, okay, what are the possible next steps and to have this conversation with my manager and really frame it. You know, this is where my mind's at. And ask question by question to really understand also his opinion and where his mind is at. And then from there have a clear ask of what is the support that I need then to get there. So I guess it's the structure and the positivity of thinking of the gains and not the losses.

[A]

Yeah. So what I'm going to leave you with is in the future when you're facing this, you know, choices, whether it's a choice of next step or choice of restaurant meal, Ask yourself the same questions. You have the capacity to do that. You've done it through your ways of being intentional. You're just doing it in a different way. But ask yourself, what do I have to gain and what do I have to lose? What choices are in front of me? What about this have I done before that I. It may look different, but it's actually quite similar. What would I need to believe to actually go through with this and focus on the gain rather than the loss? Ask yourself the questions, right? And that will then build your capacity. The challenges don't go away, but your capacity to deal with them gets stronger and stronger every time you ask yourself those questions.

[B]

Okay, that's perfect. I think I'm going to order much better food. Thank you so much, Muriel. It's been great.

[A]

Of course. Thank you. As you grow, as you grow into your career and become more and more intentional in the roles you take, making a change can feel riskier and riskier. Why go from something you know and love into something unknown? A really helpful exercise in being able to thrive in that unknown is to take stock of what is most valuable to you in your work. Your non negotiables, no matter what title or company you end up with. After we sorted out those priorities with Gia, we were able to examine a bit more about what exactly she was fearful of and how we could potentially reframe her concerns. Finally, once she had these guideposts, she was able to quickly determine actionable next steps in her work to help her get to where she wanted to go. Even if you are content, there's always an opportunity for growth. Whether you're itching to get to the next rung of the ladder or happy in a long term job, reframing how you think about change can be really helpful. That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders.

[B]

Next time, when it comes down to C suite or board, the insecurity will come out and I will start this internal loop of second guessing and deciding.

[A]

When to speak or what to say. And then I end up either saying.

[B]

Nothing, nothing or worse, kind of saying.

[A]

Something I'm not very proud of. If you love the conversations we have here on Coaching Real Leaders, you'll definitely want to check out my new book, Leadership Breakthrough. The Beliefs that Limit yout Potential. You can order it now, wherever you get your books. And if today's episode resonated with you. I'd be so grateful if you'd subscribe to the show, share it with a friend or leave a five star review on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen. It's one of the best ways to help others find the show. I'd also love to stay connected. You can always find me at murielwilkins.com, on LinkedIn murielwilkins and on Instagram oachmurielwilkins. A big thank you to my producer Mary Dew, sound Editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, my Chief of Staff Emily Sofa and the entire team at hbr. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From the HBR Podcast Network, I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well. How can you find amazing candidates? Fast? Easy. Just use Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com RealLeaders Indeed.com RealLeaders Terms and Conditions apply.