← Coffee N° 5 with Lara Schmoisman
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. This is Coffee Number Five. I'm your host, Lara Schmoisman. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Coffee Number Five. Today I'm a little tired, so I need a little more coffee than usual because this is one conversation that you don't want to miss. So get your coffee ready. Even if you're in the car, you're at home, you're working next to your computer because you, you will really want to pay attention to this one. So. Hello there, Lorne. How are you?
- [00:37]
B
I'm good. How are you?
- [00:38]
A
I'm good. I'm so happy to have you here. I mean, I don't have to introduce you, everyone knows you, but I will let you give you the Cliff Notes on who you are and what you did, because you did so, so much.
- [00:55]
B
Well, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. So I and Lauren, I've been working in beauty since 2008, but always been a product junkie, so really built my career around just a constant curiosity of product and beauty and how could people interact with it and helping people to feel more confident. So worked everywhere from L'Oreal and global marketing to Clinique and product development to luxury brand partners and true kind of innovation and brand creation and scaling up, partnering with retailers like Sephora and Ulta and blue mercury, etc. And then manufacturing at Boyd Beauty, the largest beauty and personal care contract manufacturers who led all the R and D and innovation teams there. And then most recently at Unilever Prestige and Tatcha, touching product development and bringing a lot of those best practices to the, to the prestige portfolio. And then most recently taking that on the road and on my own with the launch of Quiet Peyote, which is my own consulting agency, helping brands of of all sizes help to brands, private equity contract manufacturers, etc. Helping to bring value where I can, based on my experience.
- [02:05]
A
Yeah, that's a lot of experience. But also what I love about you is that you've done everything. Like I always say that I did everything in marketing, SEO, I did it. The only thing I cannot do is code, but I understand enough to know when it's not doing their work. But anyway, and that's, I think something really important to be a consultant and to say that, okay, I did this or understand that. Like, for example, I never realized and the secret is out that I have my little skincare line and I never realized. Thank you. It made me such a much better marketer because I went through all that process. Not only I understand better, my clients also I understand how marketing can come from the beginning of just the formulation and how we can use our ingredients. There is something that people, I don't think people don't talk enough about the competition.
- [03:06]
B
It's, it's like, it's so related and I think having those, that's why I've done what I've done. But I feel like it's a bit of, especially in this new world where consumers are so engaged. You're seeing it probably with your skincare line of like they're engaged not only the, in the aesthetics, your story, but also in the ingredients, the technology, the claim. Like it's not. No longer, it's no longer just one thing. It's all these things together. And you have to start thinking about it from the genesis. And I think, you know, I'm advising some brands in the ULTA accelerator currently and it's like what I've really encouraged them to do is take a big step back and think about their, I call it like innovation architecture. But like, like who their brand is is one thing. And they've got all kind amazing founder stories, et cetera. But how does that translate into product. Your ingredient selections, your packaging choices, your sustainability choices, your. All those, your testing, you're going to do all these things that all is related and all has to tell one story to break through for the consumer. And if it doesn't, it's hard to go back. So it's like, how do you do that in a. In a really thoughtful way as you're building brands? Yeah.
- [04:07]
A
I was talking yesterday to a founder saying you're going to have to make tough decisions because you. An early stage brands probably you don't want to have huge M IQs and there are companies in packaging that they're not gonna. You're gonna have to make difficult decisions. How sustainable you can be in what you can afford.
- [04:25]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. And that's a key area where people, where I've seen brands really struggle because it's, you know, we did, I did a lot of work in previous lives on ESG and creating that strategy. And what, what I realized is like you could go bananas like trying to do everything and not accomplish anything. But in the world of sustainability, everybody wants to be sustainable. But it's so something like that. It really comes down to hard choices and really understanding what's right for your brand, what's right for your consumers. And how do you prioritize and understand that you might not get to something for maybe three to five years until you scale a bit you have more money to spend, you can have, you can meet the MOQ requirements, etc. But like being transparent with yourself and your investors and your consumers, will that, that like, this is a, this is all kind of a moving target and not, you know, not trying to do everything at once. It's a trap that everybody.
- [05:11]
A
Also, one of the things that I realized, and I've been honing on this a lot lately, is how we use a competitive market. Like even for SEO, when we work on keywords, I always say we have our DNA keywords or who we are as a brand. The keywords that we want to rank for that they are more trending keywords. But also we need to know where our competition is. But it happened the same with ingredients. When you are formulating, you need to know who is your competition, what ingredients are you using? How are we going to be similar? But how are we going to be different too?
- [05:49]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. And the, And I see that most often manifests itself in, in the type of claims and consumer testing that you would be that these brands would be probably pursuing and spending money for, because that's how the raw materials would be brought to life. And I think it's it. That's actually where I think you can do really bring your life brand to life uniquely. But you have to have a handle on the competition. So, you know, I think about examples of like, you know, I always bring up Charlotte Tilbury because I think she's an interesting example, like you know, in a sea of 95% immediate hydration. But, you know, like, you know, DC of these clinicals kind of, you know, stock clinicals as I call them. You know, she's coming out with claims like, you know, 95% felt their skin looked unreal. And it's like nobody's questioning like what unreal looks like, but they like it of like, okay, that feels exciting and new and whatever it might be. So it's like something. But that comes from an understanding of what the category having those key claims that you have to have. But then some of those that also make you new and different and stand out within your competitive set. For sure. Yeah.
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A
Yeah. Because also otherwise you end up with a brand that is going to be similar to your competition, that already has a brand awareness and nobody needs.
- [07:03]
B
No, exactly. And you, and then you're just. It's, it's same as there's nothing usually you need to break through and it's, it's really challenging for sure.
- [07:12]
A
So when you advise a brand and this is something that I get asked all the time, how do you make your. I mean, I can do it from my side, from the brand different, but differentiation. But what about the product? How do you create the product that is unique and exciting?
- [07:30]
B
So this is where it really comes back to in most of the brands that I'm interfacing with are a lot of founder driven and it comes back to who they are and ensuring that gets pulled through their vision gets pulled through to the products. And I often think about it as like the magic of chemistry. And working with chemists is that, you know, they are all numbers and percentages and you know, most often founders or creative individuals are like you know, just the kind of this, you know, you know, ethereal or like, you know, kind of like a bit more creative up in the air, trying to.
- [08:09]
A
Until they need to start dealing with operations.
- [08:12]
B
Fair enough. Totally. Yes. So my job is to kind of find this meeting in the middle and to be able to almost be a translator in some ways. And I think it becomes a much more of like really understanding the founder and their vision and who they are. And so it's like if I'm working with a hairdresser, it's like sometimes I've seen them like jump to like, well, I just need a, you know, I just need a, you know the way leave in conditioner, just knock it off. And I'm like, but is that you? Like, I granted, yes, we need a leave in conditioner. I get it. But like what, what does that mean to you and how do you think about it and how do you use it and what do you like what are the sensorial aspects, et cetera and or like what are like hacks that you use like at the, at the salon like or at the backstage, like, what are those like what products are you combining and to get to get that perfect look that maybe doesn't exist, that you take for granted, that you just add one plus one and the sequels, this new product that, that product could be your hero breakthrough product that doesn't exist on the market currently. So it's like, it's a lot of that again going back to the consumer, the consumer, the founder, who is ultimately probably the consumer in many ways and really understanding and pulling that through. Yeah.
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A
But also you need to find out that there is a market for it. And that's where the research part comes into it. Because I see in brands that they did only something with the frame fragrance that the founder loves and nobody else does 100%.
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B
So that's like. And that's where you know, I think the having the sensitivity to the market and what's happening and what's selling in, in the retail spaces that we want to be in is. Is so crucial and to your point, understanding that competitive center what's happening because I think then you ground it in a, in a, a volume opportunity, size of the prize and it's the meeting of those. And I think where I've seen brands go astray is when you only follow size of the prize and say listen, like you know, for example like bronzing drops, like oh God, like do we really need like how like we get it. It's a growing market. But also like how, how at a certain point when you're the, you know, the 50th to the market, how are you going to be truly differentiated with that and how do you break through with that versus trying to launching something new or taking something another risk. So I think it's the marriage of those two things together of understanding then how do you think about it in balancing too like having nice high volume, maybe more. It's less innovative, maybe a bit less breakthrough or disruptive SKUs with those high volume or with those more disruptive innovative SKUs and kind of making sure you have a nice balance of both that's going to engage but also sustain your business.
- [10:37]
A
What do you think that there is the biggest opportunity for a young brand trying to go over the whole market or trying as I or niche because many times I found myself asking these questions. Who is your target audience? Well, it's a brand that works for everyone. Yeah, but you don't have the budget to go after everyone.
- [11:00]
B
Yes, it's wild. Like, I mean when we launched IGK, which was 2016 with Sephora, we launched with 21 SKUs at one time, which is like unheard of now, but it was a different world. It was like a full complete hair care line out the gate, 21 SKUs. Now if you launched with 5, 6, like that's a lot I think at this in this day and age. And so yes, I think you have to because again you marry with like what's gonna. Where you know, attention spans are limited, resources are limited. What do you. Where are you going to place your bets? And I was actually just having a discussion with it with a emerging brand right before this. We're talking about that of like what, you know what. What is going to be that one product that's going to put you on the map, that's going to get you that virality that's going to be. Going to get people talking about you and then, then you can start to build out from there. And so thinking about it. So that's, you know, if I think about brands, you know, young brands, the biggest thing they can do is really think about that one product that's going to be their hero and really focus, I think, and maximize their efforts there and ensure that, that that's going to break through.
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A
And, but also there is this belief that retail won't take a brand with one or two skills. How true is that?
- [12:14]
B
I think it's. It depends, honestly. So I think about. You think about like Magic Molecule, which is like one of those viral. They put hypochlorous acid on the, on the, on the map of this kind of, you know, magic ingredient. Similar launching at a similar time. When Tower 28 launched their hydrochlorous acid SOS spray, they just got distribution in Ulta with a single sku. But this kind of hero and demand skew, I think the retailers are changing and evolving the way they think because with competitors like TikTok Shop, where you can hit with just one sku, I think they're going to have to be competitive. So how they think about that and where the shelf slays, how it's displayed and merchandise, I think that will be a challenge for them because usually it's housed in kind of a brand, you know, brand block, whatever it is. But I think they're going to move more in that direction. Yeah, it's hard.
- [12:57]
A
They're going to have to reinvent the shelves.
- [13:00]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. And the way that they think about it and how they bring in it's, it's. And how they're engaging the customer. But again, you know, customers driving this demand, you know, Ulta Sephora are not driving demand to shelf. It's the brands that are doing it, leveraging social. These social levers. And I think it's. They have to listen to them and they are. And so it's like how do you move, how do you marry those things together when you have these kind of other. Quick, quick to market.
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A
Well, there's another challenge there that it's the education for the sales people.
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B
Totally.
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A
They're having 20, 20 brands in one shelf, in a foot of a shelf. It's going to be really challenging for the sales people to understand all the products.
- [13:43]
B
Absolutely. It's a great point. And that field education is critical. I mean, I think that's where, you know, it's. If you don't have them championing it or understanding what it is and selling, I mean top have top of mind. It's a huge, it could be a huge loss to your point. So yeah, you're not, if is a risk of you not having the, the re. You know, having that strong social draw in, you know the field is definitely going to be critical for that engagement for sure.
- [14:08]
A
I mean I, I remember there was a time like Sephora and other bigger retailers they really want to support indie brands and they will give us like a few spaces in some stores but indie brands weren't able to understand back then the importance of training. Yes. Stuff and through educating and they say oh we're in retail. So that's it. And, and then what happened? They had to buy back the inventory and. Yeah, yeah, go, go ahead.
- [14:44]
B
It's. No, no, but I think it's, it's also the, the understanding the importance but also the funds required. I mean this, the investment required for field is massive. I mean getting in and there's, there's you know, things, you know, outsource field teams that you can engage with but even that is, it's a really costly. So it's not just getting product on shelf. The costs are really in the field. To your point of like having them, getting them engaged and what you see that it takes to educate, you know, it's like everything from like you know, education in a box with a, with an iPad showing. It's like it's big investments to get them excited and engaged. Yes.
- [15:20]
A
And I think that that's a lot of early stage brands. They don't realize this, that their dream is in Sephora and as an early stage brand. I don't know. I don't want to be in Sephora yet. At least it's a lot.
- [15:35]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's, it's a big commitment and if you don't have the again it comes back to them and I think they'll tell you that as well. It's like if the demand is not there it's going to be a big investment for nothing. So if you're not and the demand needs to be supported by field and social and have you firing on all cylinders and so I think it's, it better to take it slow and steady for sure. To your point.
- [15:55]
A
Yeah, it's, it's, it's growing pains but you need to grow and scale step by step. I very scared of having a huge order because that, I mean we can get into financing. You're going to have to get money because you are, you're going to have to buy inventory, you're going to have to buy more packaging. You have shipping. Nobody talks about the shipping, shipping cost.
- [16:23]
B
It's a lot. It's a lot. And especially if it's like how early you are because it's like you, for you also remember like you're also probably still kind of navigating through some of the product market fit dynamics. And so there's not once you, once you get that opportunity to launch in a Sephora Ultra or Target or whatever it is like you really get one chance and it's like if everything isn't final, that's not a place to learn. That's a place to like explode and grow and scale quickly. So if all that isn't in line as well, like you're, it's, it's, it's very high risk for sure. Both financially and from a brand perspective. Yeah.
- [16:59]
A
One of the things I always talk with brands is like brands come to me and say I want PR and I would say is your marketing ready to have pr? Yeah, PR is a support of marketing. PR cannot come first because if your marketing cannot support you, what are you doing? All this pr, PR doesn't translate into sales.
- [17:21]
B
It doesn't and it doesn't feel, I've seen it firsthand like when you can do the biggest activations and spend millions of dollars on these things. But if the marketing isn't sound of the idea, isn't breakthrough, if all of that isn't worked out, it's just another pop up, it's just another, you know, it's just another sampling and you lose all of that, all that groundswell of excitement. It falls flat because the marketing isn't, isn't, isn't there to lift it.
- [17:49]
A
Yeah, it's a funnel that you need to create your funnels, be ready to capture all that PR and all that. Absolutely the same with TikTok shop. I would love to hear what your thoughts are on TikTok shop.
- [18:04]
B
I think it's really, I mean from, from, from what I, you know what, you know what I've seen and understand. I think that this is like, it is what's, it's, it's further democratizing the whole beauty space. So again it's allowing brands to break through but it's in one of those kind of it's impulse and it is, and it is a wide net with some of these stats that I think are so fascinating is like it's, you know, the Nano Influencers on TikTok Shop or TikTok are just as impactful as the mega influencers to drive sales and drive sales to TikTok shop. And I think that's so fascinating because it is truly again that kind of like if, if, if people are able to talk about it in a way that's compelling, then you're going to sell no matter what. Which is amazing. I think it's truly. Then again how do you figure out the right assortment for TikTok shop? What feels right for that consumer versus you know, versus an Ulta or Sephora. What feels right for that space and then again how you're driving it in terms of like demand and capturing that flywheel effect. So it's, it's the.
- [19:14]
A
Yeah my fascination with TikTok and I think that it came at the right time that every grass was super green in India in Facebook and it make it more real. So even the beauty industry is getting more real.
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B
Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and the amount of. I mean we were taught you we heard yesterday like the amount of content that's required now is insane. Insane. Which naturally lends itself to being you know, not every. Everything is a bit rough and ready like you know and that's actually the way it should be now. Like it needs to be real and authentic and credible and like it's okay to be on the fly and not perfect. You know I think some of this it's interesting some of the stats I've seen with the political campaigns. It's like even now of how quickly things are moving from a. Something happens. They get approval within 20 minutes, they have content up within the hour which is like insane even at that level on that scale which I, you know beauty brands the same are operating with it.
- [20:12]
A
So we recently became Tick Tock Shop partners as an agency which is great. It's. It help us to navigate for our clients. But something that also make me understand not everyone is TikTok shop ready.
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B
You have to.
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A
You have to have tons of content. If you cannot produce that content to be. It's impossible to succeed.
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B
That's and do they and in those. I'm so I'm fascinated to hear about this because I guess when they were did they tell you kind of the profiles of the brands that will be that they feel like will be successful beyond having content. Do they give you any other indicators or kind of brands that would be that are right for TikTok shop now?
- [20:51]
A
I think that every brand could be right for TikTok shop.
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B
I.
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A
It's a difficult platform to use and to navigate. I think it's all about the quality of content, but it's about producing content, producing content and also to sponsor the content. I, I was fascinated by that brand always and how innovative in the market it was at the time. What was the ethos that it make you. That you feel like, make the difference?
- [21:23]
B
Yeah, I feel like the, the, you know, it was really. It's a brand founded and. True, true. You know, Japanese skincare. The approach to Japanese skincare is truly unique in terms of the way that they think about formulating and the way that they think about the skin and the product experience. It's a very different. It's fascinating to me because I think we almost, we most often think about like cultural sensitivities, more so demonstrable things like color trends, like the way makeup trends or things like that. But like also the way that the way that products are formulated are also different. And that's beyond texture and fun K beauty thing, you know, ingredients and things like that. You know, the Japanese approach to skincare is like truly around actually respecting the barrier of the skin barrier. So that's why, that's how you get a lot of that beautiful sensorial feeling and doing that for ages before anybody was talking about barrier, before skin fixes, blowing up barrier. And everybody's thinking, you know what it was like everyone was doing that. Everyone is, yes, yeah, yeah. So, so it was truly utilizing ingredients that help to repair, to both repair and to strengthen the skin barrier. Because the idea is that like no active ingredients is going to work if you don't have a healthy barrier. And having a healthy barrier then allows you to formulate with sometimes less or less, a less irritating actives to get the similar or better results, which I think is really magic. So it's like those things together because I often think we think about, you know, skincare sometimes as like an ordinary approach where it's like just more active the better. Just like, you know, percentages, actives loaded on, et cetera. And that's going to be efficacious. And it's like it's got to work hand in hand with skin health and the individual skin condition. And so I think that's where, if I think about the Japanese formula approach, that's where they really bring those two worlds together. And so that's where you get this effect of like, I know it's working, I feel it's working. It's beautiful to work. Like, it's just, it's kind of like I can't put my finger on it, but I just look and feel better when I'm using these products. And I think that's something that Tatcha and other Japanese skincare brands have really brought to life.
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A
But I think Tasha did something really right which is not getting lost in translation. Even though have that Japanese sensitivity. It was very appealing to the US market for sure.
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B
For sure. I mean and then you bring in cues like you know, all the imagery, the branding, the packaging, all that kind of then further supports this whole brand idea as we were talking about at the beginning. It's like never just one thing and it's like all these things coming together of like ensuring the product, the marketing, the brand ideas is flowing through all those parts and pieces. And so you know, you think about overall it's like the packaging is inspired by the natsume the, you know, the actually a traditional packaging that houses tea which is very important the culture. So it has this haptic rounded packaging that feels really beautiful in your hand. The spoon as well. The you know, then the ingredients chosen all have a, have a really strong heritage story as well. So I think all those. And then the you know, the textures are beautiful. They're done in a truly Japanese, the Japanese skincare approach. So I think that all these parts and pieces come together to form this really finished product that is consistent and, and has a really strong equity versus, versus Potentially, potentially one of those things dropping out which would then you know, it would, it would change the experience where you would start to question like that you know, some of those products in an, in a package that was maybe stock. You're like okay, I lose a bit of the whole, that whole magic piece of it, you know. So it's really thoughtful.
- [24:51]
A
This case for example, you're talking about this beautiful packaging, this beautiful packaging can be only done a brand that it, it's a very unique packaging. So it's custom. You can.
- [25:02]
B
Yes, yeah.
- [25:03]
A
Just purchase it and have it in four weeks.
- [25:07]
B
Exactly, exactly. So that, and that's. And so yeah thinking about like seeing one of those products in just a stock, you know, plastic, you know, whatever it would, it would impact it unfortunately. You know. And so it's like how you think about all those things coming together and I think in emerging brands really have to think about all those pieces because often you're trading off, you're, you're trading, you're forcing yourself to make trade offs for resources and money to be honest. And like where do you spend and so that's why figuring out kind of those parts and pieces that are really going to drive your brand are going to be really critical so understanding if you're going to give up on packaging. But maybe there are ways to think about how do you make that ownable or purposeful of why and then making that part of the whole brand story.
- [25:48]
A
There's a whole other conversation that I think that is changing too, which is a how sustainable you are. There are other ways to be sustainable and not only with the packaging.
- [25:59]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. You can, you know, you think like packaging is the one lever that I think it's been. If I think about what's happening with greenwashing overall, I think that's where everybody's focused because that's what everybody's consumer has most been most educated and beat over the head with of like PCR content, etc. But I think the overall sustainability, we're seeing a lot of developments and a lot of access happening around being able to make better choices in terms of traceability, carbon footprint, etc. And that's all actually being, I think most exciting to me is it's being enabled by technology. So, you know, not to nerd out with this, but like within the world of formulation, what's helped us to get to advance more quickly in terms of like chemicals of concern and clean and things like that has been technology. So it's been software platforms enabled quick scans of ingredient lists enable brands to understand what's, what's in their products, what's what's happening and then that that technology is also being leveraged now into life cycle analysis, et cetera, which will help inform the impact beyond on the finished goods. So like carbon footprint recyclability, all those different parts and pieces. So technology is truly enabling brands to kind of move quicker in this world from a sustainability standpoint. I think about it more holistically, beyond just packaging for sure.
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A
And talking about technology and biotech also there is a new trending world in the beauty space that I've been seeing over and over, which is longevity.
- [27:26]
B
Yeah, it's crazy. Longevity is nuts. I mean it's honestly, it's like. And I'm a big believer. So I read it, I've read outlive. I'm like, I'm all, I'm all in on longevity. I think it's so brilliant because I think consumers want, are taking control of their health, taking trouble, their destiny in many ways. And it's turning skin care on its head because for so long we've been told it's all been about sick skin care, if you may. Like you see a wrinkle, you need retinol. You see flaky skin, you need hydration. It's all been this acute care versus preventative and thinking about what are the root causes. And I think this, it changes everything. It's going to be really challenging for skincare to catch up because if you're, if you're a skincare brand with all these pillars built on problem solution, now to add longevity, it's kind of like. Well, actually everything we've been saying is. Could be wrong.
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A
I love the word longevity is. I mean we are long in our life and why not in. I feel like we were using the word anti aging, which I hate it.
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B
Hate everybody and de. Aging, anti aging, it's all the same. But it's all.
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A
And even. I'm even not a very pro age. It's like, yeah, whoever you are, who knows? I mean, who cares how old you are? It's how old you act. Like my kids tell me mom, you're an act your age. Should I. Yeah, what should I, what, what should I act like?
- [28:55]
B
I mean, yeah, myself and your whole self and, and everybody. It's, it's this embracing of the individual because I love about longevity and even microbiome science as well is that it's like, it's this new way of like embracing that everybody's skin is different, everybody's unique, everybody's aging differently. Everybody has different things happening with their lifestyle, etc. And it's like meeting them where they're at versus exactly. To put 0.2% retinol on your skin and you're going to see a result. It's saying like, listen, everybody's inflammation and your skin is different, has different levels as to the things. So let's address that inflammation with our longevity. Let's address your microbiome. Everybody's microbiome is different. Let's customize it to you based on your own microbiome, etc. And so it's a different way of meeting folks where there are, where they are in a really positive, optimistic way, which I love.
- [29:41]
A
It's like we start saying, okay, mature skin starts at 25:30. It depends on who you are. There is no, totally. It's the same of menopause, the same of being a teenager. A teenager. Absolutely everyone in the different time of.
- [29:56]
B
Their age, like bloomer, it's 100%. And again we forget that. Like it's not, there's not a one size fits all and everybody ages differently, everybody, etc. So it's like, it's easy. I think Enough to. Oh well, you need to start using, you know, vitamin c in your 20s, retinol in your 30s, etc. It's easy to say that as a skin care industry, but it's. I think what's happening is it's all being thrown out the window in terms of this highly customized personalized approach which could involve retinols and vitamin C, but could also involve other longevity ingredients and brands like One Skin or Timeliner etc that are doing some really interesting things in this field around a different way to care for your skin. And slow. And not slow, but age differently in a way that is. It's more optimistic and positive.
- [30:41]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Before we go, I want to talk about something that you just touch on that is about embracing the skin that you're in. Because I feel like a lot of. And I do marketing, so I blame myself for this. In just selling products is not about the brand many times or buying what brand is buying what is good for your own skin.
- [31:07]
B
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And, and, and understanding. And that can be something highly personal. And I think that's where your figuring out what will work for you and your skin type is something that's. So I don't, I think people don't really realize how important what the impact can be some of the times if you're overusing ingredients or you're not really embracing that. So I think it is a, it's a moment of listening to the science, but also listening to your skin and feeling out. Feeling out what's going to make the most sense for service. Both of those. Yeah, yeah.
- [31:45]
A
No, and sometimes, I mean when you create the line, you create to connect the products together. There is a reason why you create an eye cream and a night cream. They are to balance each other. I mean I'm, believe me, I try everything. We have a lot of products to try.
- [32:04]
B
I love it.
- [32:05]
A
But I also can see the intention that the creators of brands do just for things to work together.
- [32:13]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's where, that's where if I had to actually make a recommendation for brands. If you were, if you're an emerging brand listening to this podcast, like, you know what happens a lot with emerging brands because they don't have in house formulation. I'm getting more technical. But this is bringing that technical piece of me is like, you know, they will. And this happens with eight, you know, brands, mature brands too is that they're working with a lot of multiple contract manufacturers. Right. So they're working with a lot of different contract manufacturers. To formulate their products. All chemists formulating maybe parts, you know, different products. So maybe one chemist is formulated moisturizer. One is formulated eye cream. But it's all the same brand. Right. So like, while it's under the same branding and probably uses maybe the same marketing ingredients, etc. Chemists innately will have a different approach to formulating. And this actually goes back to the Japanese skincare approach we talked about. Like there is a huge value in using one partner to formulate your entire line. Um. Because I think what you see there is that. That if you can find a chemist that gets you and you love the way they formulate. It's almost like you're finding your favorite artist or favorite music like you want to.
- [33:22]
A
I just been through that process and that conversations with your chemist.
- [33:28]
B
Oh my God.
- [33:29]
A
There are amazing. And like you can start. You get really gritty with ingredients. But also you need to be careful because they cost money.
- [33:37]
B
They cost money. Yes. And so they get you once they understand like what you. Your vision and your, like the types of things can be little things like, oh, she like Laura likes more like a little bit more slip in her products and she wants to feel like a bit more sensual or you want to feel something, you know, whatever it is. Like that. That's the types of things. So if you can work the more you can limit who you formulate with so that you can ensure every product has a similar chemistry. Construction point of view is. Is gold.
- [34:04]
A
I think it is because also your target audience, your consumer knows what they're gonna get from you. 100 and you need to think about something really important when you're selling products. You don't want to have returns in the beauty every time.
- [34:21]
B
Yeah.
- [34:22]
A
Not resell it.
- [34:23]
B
That's it. That's it. And consumers will know too. I think once if you, you know, once you start to divert from that. And I have, you know, and try though, the consumers are smart and they'll know and they'll sense it. So it's. It's a. It's a hack. But also like something I wish I wouldn't have known had I not been in this industry for a while. But I feel like there is a huge value in having that. That single point of view from a formulation standpoint. For sure.
- [34:47]
A
That's. That's a good tip. Before we go, last thing I ask, I promise. What other trends are you seeing in the beauty industry that people are missing or that white spot or why that people say, hey, here's an opportunity for.
- [35:04]
B
The yeah, again, I think the, the longevity is a big piece of it as a whole, like kind of again preventative health. You know, we're seeing this big trend of like consumers having all this information access at their fingertips but wanting it now somebody to kind of distill and make it easy for them. So there's a reason why everybody's using chat chatgpt. There's a reason why you're seeing a resurgence of travel agents. You're seeing, there's a reason why you're seeing these adoptions of this technology and services that help make sense out of a chaotic world. So I think any products that can do that or Point City that can do that. So I think we'll see that manifest itself in skin. And his hair is much more streamlined ingredient stories but that have much more richer content and reasons to be. I think overall we were talking about it, this ability of personalization, what's right for me. And that doesn't stop at skin or hair or body care that can have be ingestible. It can be multiple other things kind of impact tools, implements, et cetera, kind of all working holistically to drive, to drive results as well. And then understanding again this like this, how technology and this kind of outside, how do I say this, the ability to understand what's happening inside your body, how that will inform your choices and inform and how brands react to that and ensuring that everybody feels what's accessible to them in a way that they need I feel like will be, you know, a bigger trend to think about as well. So and then you know, this continued kind of graying of areas in terms of top like body, hair, skin. I think it's all kind of continues to converge which I think is really interesting of like, you know, multi use products. What do you think?
- [36:53]
A
I mean I was looking at some numbers and some forecasting and they said that the men's industry is growing in the beauty industry amazingly.
- [37:04]
B
Oh, interestingly it's like. So I was just having this conversation this morning. So I, you know, having worked at, you know, I did innovation at Clinique Skin supplies for men which is you know, the number, you know that heels and Jack Black were forever the three kind of men's brands that's sold. It's interesting. The men's market I think is like TikTok is having definitely an influence on the men's market. Men's beauty and personal care market of I think legitimizing and making it some of those, some of these, some of these beauty options that maybe weren't always for, you know, always positioned or targeted for men, making them more accessible. So you're seeing, you know, the French TikTok influencer putting his makeup on in the subway and making that more okay. And Charlotte Tilbury giving her makeup to use and et cetera and like, and perfume maxing or whatever and all these different things. I think it's. I think it just comes down to the brands of how they're communicating to it and what's. What that consumer is open to and I think will surprise us in terms of what's going to resonate with him versus what we've seen in the past of just really thinking about, really about masculine looking, packaging and fragrance. You know, what else is there for him, to engage him. Yeah.
- [38:15]
A
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being with me.
- [38:17]
B
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, surely Fun, super fun. Thank you so much for having me.
- [38:23]
A
Okay, to you guys. I will see you next week with more coffee. Number five. Find everything you need at larashmoisman.com or in the episode notes right below. Don't forget to subscribe. Was so good to have you here today. See you next time. Catch you on the flip side. Ciao, ciao.