← Coffee N° 5 with Lara Schmoisman
Loading summary
Transcript52 lines
- [00:00]
Kevin Akelberry
Foreign.
- [00:05]
Lara Schmoisman
This is Coffee Number five. I'm your host, Lara Schmoisman. Hi everyone. Welcome back to Coffee Number five. Coffee ready. And I'm ready for another great conversation today. So we talk a lot about these things. We talk about leadership, we talk about how to build teams. And this is something in my conversation that every day I build this. I, we're leaders in so many ways. I mean we can be leaders in our family. I'm the CEO of my house, of course, and I'm the, the leader of my dog. I'm the leader of a company and.
- [00:44]
Kevin Akelberry
We'Re leaders not necessarily in that order. Right?
- [00:48]
Lara Schmoisman
That's totally right. And but also there is another type of leadership and it's a brand leadership. And I don't think I. We have a special guest for you today. So we have Mr. Akelberry. So I could have let himself and probably I did wrong because I always pronounce last names wrong. But I want to bring you today an expert in leadership. And I don't know if he ever talk about leadership in branding and brands but because I know that he specializes in teams and he has an amazing trajectory and books that he wrote, but I found that leadership extreme in so many territories. So welcome. Thank you so much for being here today.
- [01:33]
Kevin Akelberry
I'm so glad to be here, Laura. And, and you know, when, when like you and me, when you own a company, you have to be, you have to think about a lot of things and one of the things that you have to think about is marketing and branding. And so while I've never written a book about branding leadership, I certainly have thoughts about branding and have spent a lot of time thinking about that for our business and observing that in others. And so we can take this conversation wherever you want to go. And I'm super glad to be here.
- [02:01]
Lara Schmoisman
Well, let's talk about your, your story a little bit. A little bit. How did you become a leader in leadership?
- [02:09]
Kevin Akelberry
Well, I, I grew up on a farm and we had an agricultural related business as well. And so I had, I had great examples of leadership around me and I had the chance to lead within that those businesses in ways that most people don't at the age that I had those chances. And I had chances to, and took opportunities to lead both in high school and in college in significant ways. And all of that I think was preparation for the work that I do now. And ultimately without going into all of the details, after a period of time working In a Fortune 10 company, I found myself ready to go start my own company and it ended up being training and development. And soon after I started doing training and development work, I found myself sort of continuing to be closer and closer, attracted to leadership development. And so we are in the learning business. That's how I would brand us. We're in the learning business, but the thing that we do the most and we help the people the most with is being a more effective leader, helping teams and organizations be more effective through more effective leadership.
- [03:30]
Lara Schmoisman
That's amazing. Leadership is such an important conversation to have externally and internally. It's a conversation that I found myself having all the time and how to be a better leader. Like I always say, I'm an accidental founder. I. I wasn't prepared to be a leader of a company. So it's something that I had to learn by myself as my company grew. And one of the things that I had to really separate myself is that we are not ruthless, but we are rigorous as a leader. And it's something that you need to understand and it's a very gray area. And because when as a leader, you still have many responsibilities. As a leader, I have the responsibility when with my clients, but I do have a responsibility with my team and I have a responsibility with myself.
- [04:20]
Kevin Akelberry
You know, many founders, I wrote a book a number of years ago, co wrote a book a number of years ago called From Bud to Boss, about the transition from being a member of the team to being the leader of the team and founder. And that is the hardest transition we can ever make. And founders make that same transition, although they may be building the team on the fly as opposed to having been a part of it. And yet in many ways it's that same transition. And so I just want to start by sort of tipping my hat to you because not every founder figures out what you said earlier. Not every founder figures out that I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to dig in to myself and to being a better leader and not just focus on customers. And I just focus on marketing and branding and selling and all of that other stuff, all those other hats we have to wear. And so, you know, founders that succeed ultimately, or founders who are able to have a life as they build their business have to figure out how to lead others because otherwise we'll be so buried in the work ourselves because we're not leading, we're not delegating, we're not sharing. And so it's critical. So many who are listening. Yeah, you've got this list of skills you want to learn. I'm sorry, I interrupted you, you get this list of skills you want to learn and this one really needs to move near the top of the list.
- [05:42]
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the things that even I always tell this whoever I talk to. My company grew fast and I wasn't prepared for that growth. So I had to restructure and restructure as I was going. But then at some point I had to step, take a step back and say, okay, now we need to have a real restructure and see and remove myself. I was doing a little bit of everything still. And I was like, that's a waste of my time that I was driving everyone crazy because they were depending on my time. And on top of that, we weren't being productive. So and I, when we took that step back and we are more efficient, it was oh my God moment. This is what we really needed. And even going farther today I found out that we weren't using a platform. And that's something I want to talk to you a little more because now we have so many integrations with platforms that evolve all the time. So I found out that, oh my God, we're not using these platforms correctly and we're not being efficient. So I find that all the time we need to be adapting and the teams need to be open minded to adapt.
- [06:55]
Kevin Akelberry
And you know, here's the thing, and we don't think about this a lot as leaders either, but it's true. But if, if you want your team to be adapting, people will say, so Kevin, adapting, it'd be one example. So, Kevin, I want my team to be more adaptable. What do I need to do first? I'm like, look in the mirror. You have to be more adaptable or people will say, well, I want my team to be more accountable. I said, well, look in the mirror. Do they see an example of accountability in you? And so whether it's accountability, whether it's adaptability, where it's creativity, wherever is it that one of the things that we have to remember as leaders is they're always watching us. And by the way, many of you listening are founders. I realize that. But even if you're, if you're, even when I say just, I don't mean it in a negative way. You may be a frontline leader in an organization. This isn't just a founder. This is any, what I would call capital L leader. In other words, leader by position or because of position. And so they are watching us more than we realize. And what we see in our team is in a bigger way than we often think is a reflection of us.
- [08:01]
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah. I mean, I always tell my team that or the skills that I want, I want them to act like future leaders. They need to have that skill. They need to want to be a leader, because everyone should be a lead in what they do. At least in my team, I want them to think of as entrepreneurs. I want to think about, like, give me proposals. Then I will have to make an executive decision because I'm looking at the big picture if we're going to be doing it or not. And nobody needs to take it personal because what might. We might not be ready today. And not because of them, because of other circumstances. It's there, and someone putting it out there is really valuable to me.
- [08:42]
Kevin Akelberry
No, I completely agree. And what you've just described is a big part of the culture that you're trying to create in your organization. And. And others might not describe things in the way that you. You did, but what that's saying, Lara, is that that's what it means to work here. I mean, for you and. Or with you. And that's important for us as leaders to be clear about what is. What are those skills that we're looking for, but what are the behaviors that we're trying to together. Right. And. And figure that that's a huge part of our job as a leader as well.
- [09:15]
Lara Schmoisman
It's absolutely a good part of the job. But I think a lot of people confuse leadership for being a boss or leadership to being able to say, oh, I'm a team player. And no, leadership doesn't mean that you need to be doing the same work as your team. Being a leader, you have to do your own job. And also to me, a key word is work, responsibility. And as I'm not perfect, I make mistakes all the time, and I make myself accountable for the mistakes, and I take responsibility for my mistakes.
- [09:48]
Kevin Akelberry
Yeah. And when your team sees you doing that, it improves the likelihood that they will do the same. And there's where we're trying to go. Right. So I love that this is a really. This is a really important conversation. I hope those of you that are listening are listening to what Laura is telling you, because her example is worth following.
- [10:06]
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, well, but I want to listen from the expert. I'm no expert. I'm just learning as I go. My question to you is, what are the qualities of the lead, a leader, and leadership is something that you can learn or is something that you were born with?
- [10:23]
Kevin Akelberry
Well, that's. I'll start with the second part. I've Been asked that question hundreds of times. And, you know, are leaders made or are they born? Right? Is fundamentally the question. And here's my answer. Are you ready?
- [10:35]
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, I'm ready.
- [10:36]
Kevin Akelberry
Yes. The answer is, yes, they are both made and born. Like, here's the thing, no one ever read a birth announcement that said, today we announced the birth of a leader. And yet when you read obituaries, you see a whole lot of stuff about people who led in companies and in communities and in churches and in families. And so something's happening between birth and death. And here's how I would frame that, that human beings of sound mind and body that make the choices that it takes takes to become effective leaders can become effective leaders. I do not believe that solely leaders are born. And you. The second part of your question is, well, what are the traits or what are the skills? And, and I've asked thousands of people that question. And usually the way I do it is I say, okay, everybody, think of, Think of someone. And you can do this as you listen, think of someone you think of as a really great leader and then write down five reasons why or three reasons why. And I can get people to do that. And then we start making a list, and it ends up being a very long list which, which leads to the very important point that leadership is complex. There's a lot to it. There's not one single right or best answer. And. And yet everything that ends up on those lists are skills. And if they're skills, we can learn them. But so are leaders made? Yes, because we have to. You know, are we born. We're born with the raw DNA that can start that process. But no one has what it takes to lead at birth or even as a young person. It takes us building skills, honing skills along the way. And really, it's a process that never.
- [12:18]
Lara Schmoisman
I can say this also for personal experience. I could not be the leader that I am today 20 years ago, because I didn't have the experience.
- [12:26]
Kevin Akelberry
Exactly.
- [12:27]
Lara Schmoisman
I. So how important is experience being a leader?
- [12:31]
Kevin Akelberry
Well, it depends on how we use that experience. Because here's the thing, everyone has experience. The question is, what do they do with it? And you may have heard the joke, or even if you haven't, this one probably makes sense to you. There's a difference between someone who has five years of experience and one year of experience five times. And the difference is reflection. Right? So you said, I've got 20 years experience. So it's how you, how you use that experience as the seeds of your future growth. Like if I just keep leading meetings and I never think about whether they worked or whether they didn't or how I could have made them better, then I'm just going to keep leading meetings. The experience only becomes valuable if I adjust and shift and change and learn from how I did that meeting before I do the next meeting. And so experience is, experience by itself just comes from age. The value of the experience comes from reflecting on it and acting on what you.
- [13:27]
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely. I cannot agree more on that. But also I think let's go back what we were mentioning before and that I found that it is a challenge for a lot of leaders, which is adaptability, that they found that something works. But now we work in space. I mean we both been around for a while. I just say the 20 years. So I gave myself away.
- [13:51]
Kevin Akelberry
Well, my number is bigger than that, so we'll just.
- [13:53]
Lara Schmoisman
Mine too. I was just making me look good there. But anyway, I was. My question is I seen when I started my working experience, we didn't have Internet basically. Luckily if we had an email. No, not even that anyway. And I didn't even have a cell phone. So my wall. I had to learn so many skills as I was going. And I'm maybe I'm a little intense with my team. I'm always bringing new technologies, but I feel like as a leader I need to be in the front road and I'm the one who needs to be bringing the change. And I think I'm going to keep using this world over and over. That is responsibility. The responsibility of lead by example. Like for example, on weekends I take certifications on software because I feel like if I cannot expect that from my team if I'm not doing it. But, but when is enough is enough for a leader. And when is, is there a time that you can say, okay, I just lead and let my time my. Are you going to be lacking as a leader if you, if you stop doing those things?
- [15:07]
Kevin Akelberry
Well, I, I, I think that we have to be judicious about that. So, so there's two things, there's two things that you're modeling for your team when you do what you said on the weekend, right. One of the thing is you're working to get a certification so that you have the knowledge and you want to model that they are doing the same. That's useful. But the other thing you're modeling for them is working on the weekend. And the question then is, and that's only a question that you can answer is, is that what you want to be modeling for them, too. Right. So only you can answer. I'm not even asking you to answer here. But that's the question we have to ask. Because they're watching everything, not just the parts we want them to notice. Right. Like, I want to shine the light on the fact that I got the certific. They may not want to shine the light on it and do anything all weekend except take the certification course. So. So here's what I would say. I think as. As leaders and as we grow our businesses or grow our sphere of influence as a leader, whatever that would be for you, there comes a time when we can't know all of the details of the team, and if we try, we likely won't succeed. Or even if we do succeed, then our focus is probably not always in the right place. Right. Because we have to be thinking bigger, further, farther, and the more we go into the depth, the less, the harder it is for us to look further, farther, and forward. So we have to be judicious about that. Right. You made the comment earlier, like, I have to lead by example in terms of, you know, being able and willing to do the work. I agree. But if we're. If we're doing the work every day, then we're missing something we could or should be doing as a leader that otherwise won't get done.
- [16:47]
Lara Schmoisman
Of course. Of course. And I. Maybe I miss giving the example. This was something important. It was a certification that felt like if I. I didn't do it as a leader, I wouldn't be lacking of helping my team. And, yeah, I feel like you're. You need to be a support system for your team. If you're not there for them and you cannot answer questions, you are deserving your team.
- [17:08]
Kevin Akelberry
This is true. And if you've got 20 people on your team, you can't know everything. No, if you try, you're. Then you. So. So I'm not. I'm not. I'm not at all saying you shouldn't have taken the certification. I'm asking the broader question for everyone who's listening, which is we have to be careful about that. There are certain things in our businesses that we need to make sure we know. It sounds like this was one of those things. Awesome. But that can. That can creep into, I need to take every certification. I need to know everything.
- [17:38]
Lara Schmoisman
Oh, no, no, no.
- [17:39]
Kevin Akelberry
And there's a point at which we've got to be careful as a leader about that. So I'm commenting for the listener, Laura, more than I am for you in that regard. Because it's, because it's complicated how we think about all of that. And our intention doesn't always get seen in the way we want.
- [17:57]
Lara Schmoisman
No, absolutely. But this is my question. When you have a team and I'm thinking from a leader point of view, in one hand, you want to be a supportive leader and understanding, I mean, in my case, each department talks their own dialect or language. So you need to be able to understand what each department is working on. Otherwise you are not being able to lead them. However, there are things that every day I'm not in the everyday things. So I need to trust my team that they will be on top of those things 100%.
- [18:33]
Kevin Akelberry
So I would think of this, using this as an example. This, this really, this real life example is an example of what I would. A flexor. And the flexor is am I supposed to focus on the big picture or am I supposed to focus on the details? And that's the wrong question. The reason it's the wrong question is because as you've just described, I have to do a little bit of both. And so the challenge for us as leaders is that most of us have a preference or have a habit that I'm more big picture or I'm more detail focused. And the reality is, as leaders, given the moment, given the situation, given the context, I might need to lean one direction or the other toward big picture or toward details. And we've got to be willing and able to flex along that continuum rather than just doing what we're most comfortable with, what we're used to, or what we've seen past leaders do. And. Right. So what you're, you're describing is I have to. You have to find that, that you have to deal with that tension for yourself. And you do. All of us have to.
- [19:39]
Lara Schmoisman
But also I seen it out there because I work with multiple companies all the time at any given time that sometimes leaders can create noise. And this noise is created by bringing too much to the table at the same time. And one thing that I always say is me as a leader, I'm trying to remind myself this, I've been doing this for a long time. I cannot expect my team to have all the knowledge that I have in order to make those decisions. So I need to make sure that I'm only putting on them without creating confusion. Because also it's about information. They don't have. All the information that I have include my experience.
- [20:19]
Kevin Akelberry
That's correct. So we have a, So I will state it a different way for everybody that we have a. As leaders, we have a different perspective than our teams have. And sometimes. And so I'm using the word perspective rather than knowledge because knowledge feels like it's just like a big old list of stuff. Right. And so I. I often will say to leaders that we have a different perspective than our team. We need to understand their perspective, and sometimes we have to lift their eyes to see ours, that future forward, bigger picture than they see, and yet we need to understand what they see as well. That's. That comes with the job, and that's often really hard for leaders to navigate.
- [21:01]
Lara Schmoisman
Okay. Something important that they brought to my attention a while ago is that companies or employees, in many cases, they believe that in order to grow professionally, they need to get a leadership role, which I completely disagree with. I think that if you're an expert in something and you're really good at the skill, you should be having the opportunity of growing because you are such a good individual with a skill.
- [21:32]
Kevin Akelberry
Well, that's a big societal question. Right? So perhaps in your company or in the company that any of you are working in, you have the ability to build your career along a technical track, if you will. Right. But you know what? We. We've all grown up in a world that says at some level, success looks like climbing the ladder, that I really haven't been successful until I'm leading others, or in some cases, the only way I can make more money or have more prestige is to lead other people. And so I'm not saying that that's always correct, but what I'm saying is that that's the narrative in nearly everyone's.
- [22:13]
Lara Schmoisman
It is.
- [22:14]
Kevin Akelberry
And so that's the challenge for us as owners, as founders, is to think about how do we value the various skills and things that people bring to our organization. And. And can we. And will we. And are we able to compensate people in. In ways. In a variety of ways that might not mean only from becoming. Moving into a leadership management sort of role. And so you ask a really big question, and it's easy to say, well, people shouldn't have to. And yet there's an awful lot of things that even subconsciously that sort of push people in that direction. And sometimes in organizations, we push people in that direction because very often I.
- [22:56]
Lara Schmoisman
Think not everyone need to have the skills or want to have those skills or want to be. Just have it. Let's put as an example a designer. Someone could be a really great designer and didn't have the desire of managing people. Why they will stop the growth and So I think that's a bigger conversation, of course, and it's not about leadership. But one of the things that I learned, and probably you did too, as teaching, and you are doing it all the time to me, which is fantastic. You are putting my ideas in a professional words, which it's called great. And I appreciate it. Because I'm not a specialist in leadership. I noticed that when I started teaching, I had to reframe how I was explaining things or how even I was understanding things, because I did things, because I did, because I understand that the concept when we have to explain things to others is completely different. And that's one of the skills that also leadership requires.
- [23:57]
Kevin Akelberry
I'll just say one thing about, first of all, 100% that's true. And the one thing I'll say about that is the first thing that you should do if you find yourself in that situation is ask yourself this question. What was it like when I was learning it? Because if you've been doing something, whatever it is, designing, leading, selling, doesn't matter what it is for a long time, then you have all this profound knowledge that's just sitting in your head, stuff that you don't even. That you just think everybody knows and they don't. And so we. It doesn't mean we end up feeling like we're dumbing it down for them. No, we're not. We're just bringing it down to where they're at. And it's not that they're not smart. It's. They don't have all. They. They can't connect all of the dots that we connect automatically yet. So the question to ask is, what was it like when I was a beginner? Remember when I was a beginner in this thing? And how would I need to learn it or want to learn it or what did I need to learn next when I was there? We want, when we are the expert, we want to go fast because we want to get them to where we are. But you didn't go from zero to 60. And so we can't take them from zero to 60.
- [25:07]
Lara Schmoisman
Absolutely. So if someone want to become. Start their leadership career, say, okay, I'm ready. I know now that I want to be a leader, that maybe I believe I could be a leader or I'm not sure I can be a leader and. But I feel like that's the next step in my career for growth, for personal growth, money, whatever reason it is. Where do you start? Because you cannot go to your boss and say, I want to be a leader. You need to demonstrate leadership.
- [25:40]
Kevin Akelberry
Well, you can certainly let people know that that's. That you believe that that's what you aspire to. Right. But then you need to go to work right to your point. And so I do think that it's in your best interest to let people know that, that that's the path you'd like to take. And I think you can certainly ask them for feedback about what they see as your strengths and areas for growth in that. In the area of leadership, you can do that. But what I will tell you is that our world gives us more opportunities to start to learn those skills now than ever before. But before we get to all that stuff, I would simply say this. If we want to start to be a more effective leader, we want to learn what it means to be a leader. Start observing leaders and start observing what they're doing. Find a mentor that you can say, well, I saw you doing this. Why did you do it that way? What were you thinking? What was the process that you used to think that through? So start seeing the world through a leadership lens is what I'm saying.
- [26:36]
Lara Schmoisman
I will add one more thing to that. See what you don't like about leaders.
- [26:40]
Kevin Akelberry
Absolutely. That's where I was going to go next. So you can. We can observe any leader, including those that we don't want to emulate, because we can say, yeah, I don't want to do that, or and you know what? There are a lot of people, there are very few leaders that are trying to mess it up. Right. They're doing what they believe is the best approach. And so we may say, well, I don't want to do it that way. But then the question you've got to ask is, why don't I want to do it that way? What is it that they're doing that's about that, that's not helpful or won't. Isn't working in this situation. So, yes, we can learn from leaders who we want to look up to, and we can learn from leaders who we're. Who we don't want to emulate as well. When we start to look at the world through a leadership lens, that's the first step. Then we got resources everywhere. We got books by people like me. We've got, you know, we've got YouTube. And I mean, like literally the options.
- [27:37]
Lara Schmoisman
No, they are. More than ever, I want to say something. When you become a leader, be kind to yourself. Don't everything is that black or white. There is a lot of grace.
- [27:49]
Kevin Akelberry
There's very little that's actually black and white, almost everything. When you were a technical expert, a designer, an accountant, whatever, much more of there were, there were many more right answers and more things were black and white. As you move into the role of leading others, reaching valuable outcomes with and through other people, the world becomes less either or and more both. And just like we said earlier about details and big picture.
- [28:15]
Lara Schmoisman
Yes, but you're leading people. There is a whole part about you are talking to other human beings. Even though you have to get work ready and done, you need to be human first.
- [28:27]
Kevin Akelberry
Well, because the people that you are leading are human. Right. Who are. And they're both amazing and messy and so are we. And so we have to be. We have to realize that if we want to become more effective leaders. It's a lifelong complex journey and it certainly is in part because there are human beings involved, including ourselves.
- [28:46]
Lara Schmoisman
Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a great, beautiful way to finish this conversation. Thank you so much. Kevin. It was wonderful to having coffee or tea in your case with you today.
- [28:58]
Kevin Akelberry
It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
- [29:00]
Lara Schmoisman
And to you guys. I will see you next week with coffee number five. Find everything you need at larashmoisman.com or in the episode notes right below. Don't forget to subscribe. Was so good to have you here today. See you next time. Catch you on the flip side. Ciao, ciao.