Scaling Smart: The Business of Growth with David Aquino

Summary

Podcast Summary: Coffee N° 5 with Lara Schmoisman
Episode: Scaling Smart: The Business of Growth with David Aquino
Release Date: February 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Coffee N° 5, host Lara Schmoisman engages in a deep and insightful conversation with David Aquino, the Chief Operating Officer and Executive President at Ben Health. This episode, titled "Scaling Smart: The Business of Growth," delves into the intricacies of scaling a business effectively, emphasizing the importance of operational efficiency, financial acumen, strategic partnerships, and maintaining accountability during periods of growth.

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The Importance of Operational Efficiency and Financial Acumen

Lara Schmoisman begins the discussion by highlighting the necessity of focusing on growth both personally and at the company level. She underscores the significance of transparency and the role of the entrepreneur as the face of the brand. David Aquino responds by emphasizing his passion for supply chain operations and financial management, asserting that "you can have the greatest vision, the greatest brand, the greatest potential, but you need to run the business financially sound with the right resources, the right execution" (02:15).

David elaborates on the critical balance between vision and financial execution, stressing that "having the financial acumen and the operational execution ... is a really good marriage with the vision" (03:15). This marriage ensures that businesses do not waste resources and can effectively scale without compromising their foundational goals.

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Optimizing Resource Allocation in Growing Brands

The conversation transitions to the challenges young and mid-market brands face in justifying and optimizing their use of funds. David Aquino points out that many bootstrap brands struggle with limited finances, leading to the risk of "running out before you've really executed the vision" (03:29). Conversely, well-funded brands may inadvertently "waste a lot of money" by not strategically investing in areas that drive growth, such as marketing and brand awareness.

Lara Schmoisman introduces the concept of evaluating the effectiveness of service providers, noting that excessive spending on consultants and external agencies can detract from essential advertising efforts. She advises brands to "financially track and summarize what's been spent and what were the objectives of the service provider" (05:28). This ensures that every dollar spent aligns with the company's growth objectives and delivers measurable outcomes.

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Choosing the Right Partners and Ensuring Accountability

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the importance of selecting the right partners and service providers. Lara Schmoisman highlights the difficulty in finding partners who are not only skilled but also invested in the brand's success. She remarks, "you have people that really feel like it's theirs and are willing to put their blood, sweat and tears into the business as much as the founder" (08:52).

David Aquino agrees, emphasizing the need for partners who are committed and have "skin in the game." He warns against hiring consultants who are only interested in offering opinions without contributing to the execution, stating, "there is a difference when you're doing product development... there is a crossover point ... who's going to actually do the work and are they willing to be held accountable" (07:16).

To mitigate these challenges, both speakers advocate for establishing clear accountability structures and fostering partnerships where all parties are aligned with the company’s long-term vision and are equally invested in its success.

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Strategic Flexibility and Continuous Adjustment

The hosts stress the importance of strategic flexibility in a constantly evolving business landscape. David Aquino uses the analogy of American football, explaining that while teams may have scripted plays for the first half, it's the halftime adjustments that often determine the game's outcome. He states, "strategy is just a starting point and it's having the right partners that can adjust" (11:26).

Lara Schmoisman concurs, comparing strategy to a dynamic process that requires ongoing evaluation and modification. She emphasizes that "things aren't always going to go the way you expect... it's about being adjusted" (10:59). This mindset is crucial for brands to navigate unexpected challenges and to capitalize on emerging opportunities effectively.

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Avoiding Desperation and Making Informed Decisions

A critical insight from the conversation is the pitfalls of desperation in business decision-making. Lara Schmoisman warns against "doing things in desperation," likening it to trying to swim out of water without proper technique — a futile effort (16:36). Such actions often lead to poor decisions that can derail a brand’s growth trajectory.

David Aquino echoes this sentiment, advising founders to "know the time horizon to develop" and to set clear milestones. He cautions against reactive measures and instead advocates for proactive planning with the right partners who "can assess where you are and what needs to happen to hit the next milestone" (26:11).

This approach helps prevent the kind of reactive, Hail Mary attempts that are often ineffective and can lead to unnecessary financial strain and strategic missteps.

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Building a Solid Foundation with Social Proof and Strategic Positioning

The discussion also touches upon the necessity of social proof and strategic positioning for brands aiming to enter various markets, such as retail and spas. David Aquino emphasizes that "without social proof, you cannot exist as a brand" (16:42), and advises brands to ensure they have "proof of concept" before expanding into new channels.

Lara Schmoisman provides an example of Althea Skin with Dr. Shamban, highlighting how the brand’s clinical credibility allows it to seamlessly transition between professional settings and retail environments. She explains, "having a product that can be used as part of a regimen in professional locations ... and also take it home" (15:17), showcasing the importance of having a versatile product that meets the needs of multiple consumer bases.

For newer brands, she advises a thoughtful approach to positioning, ensuring that their strategies are tailored to their unique strengths and market conditions. Lara notes, "if you don't match your strategy up thoughtfully and you try to do too much, you end up doing nothing" (15:10).

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Implementing Structured Accountability and Financial Planning

To maintain growth and avoid the pitfalls of desperation, Lara Schmoisman and David Aquino advocate for structured accountability and meticulous financial planning. David Aquino suggests implementing a "bi-weekly cadence" of updates and meetings to ensure that the team remains aligned and accountable to their plans (21:14).

Lara Schmoisman reinforces the importance of having a solid financial model that tracks monthly and quarterly performance against established goals. She emphasizes, "making it less emotional" by adhering to business plans and objectively measuring success (20:56).

This disciplined approach helps brands stay focused on their objectives, make informed decisions based on data, and adapt their strategies as needed to ensure sustained growth.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the conversation wraps up, both Lara Schmoisman and David Aquino reiterate the importance of strategic partnerships, financial discipline, and maintaining a flexible yet focused approach to scaling a business. They highlight that successful growth is not just about expanding but doing so in a manner that is sustainable and aligned with the company’s core vision and values.

David Aquino concludes by emphasizing the value of having the right partners early on to avoid self-inflicted problems and to navigate the inevitable challenges that come with scaling (26:59). Lara Schmoisman adds that choosing partners with similar circumstances and a genuine interest in the brand's long-term success is crucial for maintaining momentum and achieving desired outcomes.

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Key Takeaways

1. Operational Efficiency and Financial Acumen: Essential for balancing vision with practical execution to prevent resource wastage.

2. Strategic Partnerships: Choosing partners who are invested in the brand’s success and can adapt to changing circumstances is critical.

3. Accountability Structures: Implementing regular check-ins and clearly defined roles ensures that the team remains aligned and responsible.

4. Flexibility in Strategy: Being prepared to adjust plans based on real-time data and market feedback helps in navigating challenges effectively.

5. Avoiding Desperation: Making informed, data-driven decisions prevents the pitfalls of reactive and potentially harmful strategies.

6. Social Proof and Positioning: Building credibility through social proof and strategic positioning is vital for expanding into new markets like retail and spas.

7. Structured Financial Planning: Detailed financial tracking and objective performance measurement facilitate sustainable growth.

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Notable Quotes

• David Aquino:

  • "You can have the greatest vision, the greatest brand, the greatest potential, but you need to run the business financially sound with the right resources, the right execution." (02:15)
  • "Most young brands ... never have enough money, which is always the scariest thing." (03:29)
  • "There is a difference when you're doing product development ... who's going to actually do the work and are they willing to be held accountable." (07:16)

• Lara Schmoisman:

  • "If you're not a go getter, if you're not going to be the face of your brand, your brand will fail." (00:05)
  • "Financially track and summarize what's been spent and what were the objectives of the service provider." (05:28)
  • "You don't know what's going on if you don't love it ... have a financial plan, have a business plan, have a marketing plan." (20:56)

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Stay Tuned: For more insights and actionable strategies on running, growing, and scaling a successful business, tune into the next episode of Coffee N° 5 with Lara Schmoisman. Visit larashmoisman.com or check the episode notes for additional resources and information.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

This is Coffee Number Five. I'm your host, Lara Schmoisman. Hi you guys. Welcome back to Coffee Number Five. My coffee is ready. Today I got a black cap for those who cannot see me. Yes, I took a sip and this is what I've been thinking about lately and you know how important is for me. If you know me, if you talk to me, if you're hearing my podcast, you know how my goal is growth, personal growth, company growth is always close and it's about transparency and it's about you. We are if you have to, you are an entrepreneur. You know that you have to be a, a go, a go getter. If you're not a go getter, if you're not going to be the face of your brand, your brand will fail. You need to go and find your space in the market, but only also nobody's going to fight for your brand as you fight. So that's the job of your CEO cfo. You cannot be doing an Instagram post because if you're doing that, you're wasting your time. So you know that you. I meet tons of people and sometimes you meet someone and feel, oh my God, I'm aligned with this person and it's, it was such a pleasure to talk to him and I want my audience to, to hear more about this. So that's how I met David Aquino and I think that for first time in 170 episodes I didn't chop your last name. So welcome David.

[A]

So great to see you and appreciate.

[B]

Being on so I mean I've been talking to David David, his trajectory is incredible. Being a chief operating officer and executive presidents and Ben Health. Oh my God, you've been around for a while, let's say it like that. But also one of the things that really struck me talking to you is about how your mindset was on operations and stop wasting money and let's get this company to grow. So tell me a little more about this approach.

[A]

I really appreciate it and lovely to, to speak with you and I appreciate being on I think you know my history has been focused heavily on supply chain operations and it and to your point, you can have the greatest vision, the greatest brand, the greatest potential, but you need to run the business financially sound with the right resources, the right execution. And so I'm passionate about financial acumen, about execution and the opportunity is that again you can have as you mentioned, don't waste money, get the right resources, especially for a young and burgeoning brand and make sure that you eliminate a lot of the mistakes that a lot of entrepreneurs wind up running into and it allows them not to be successful. So having the financial acumen and the operational execution I think is a really good marriage. With the vision, as you're alluding to.

[B]

Yeah. What do you see? See that when you come in with EM brands or middle range brands that you come to help from the operation sites that they are the most use of funds that they are, you cannot justify.

[A]

I appreciate the question. I think it's very fair. Most young brands that I've run into, the real entrepreneurial bootstrap brands never have enough money, which is always the scariest thing. So that's the challenge is running out before you've really executed the vision. The other part of it is if you happen to be really well funded, which I think is very unusual, you can waste a lot of money. And that really means what we've been talking about from a shorthand is who is gonna handle this? Not from a vanity project, but from a business orientation, which is how do I build awareness, how do I build excitement, how do I show the product? And the solution is efficacious. Oftentimes you can run into friends, family, interested parties, but. But they're not really the right partners. And I think that younger brands, as you're alluding to, can waste a lot of time, money and energy in picking the wrong resources and not getting those trusted advisors that are going to tell them the truth. Mid market and growing, I think it's very much about scale and what is the appropriate sequence of steps for growth. Meaning that you know, you might have had a hit with a single product or an initial launch, but how do you actually sustain it and monitor it? Those are two areas that are very different.

[B]

So we had Carolyn from arching, she was in one our podcast before, and part of the conversation that we were having was that there was a lot of money spent in service providers and service providers were so expensive that I mean, and I see it also when brands come to me that they're spending so much money in different places that it doesn't equal the money that they can put in. Advertising is taken away from that. So how do you manage that from the operational or financial side? How do you equalize the spend and the return?

[A]

So it's a really good point and usually the best thing for me, I hate to sound like this is coming in when some of those issues have already been made. So one is actually financially tracking and summarizing what's been spent and what were the objectives of the service Provider. So when we talk about marketing or technology, all of a sudden you can die on the vine by having too much advertising with no awareness, not having the right partners, spending too much energy, as you were alluding to on opportunities that don't pan out. So one is being very objective on how much are we spending, what's our burn rate, what is our expected outcome. The second is are there opportunities where you can get more bang for the buck? You and I have talked about when you have somebody who's like minded, entrepreneurial at heart, it's really about doing, doing less, not doing more, having people that can wear multiple hats, people that are gonna have skin in the game. I think those are all opportunities, please.

[B]

And that's hard to get people that they want to have skin in the game. And that's something that lately been fascinating me. How do you find those people that you connect with and because I see that a lot of entrepreneurs, they tend to do this either to hire someone they know or to hire a friend of a friend or to hire a, a big name that either they was working as in a high level in a company at some point and now is a consultant. And some consultants are great and consultants are when there is a specific consulting on something. But if you're trying to get a consultant for a day growth for me and it comes without execution, it's like little difficult to gauge.

[A]

I think it's a great point. I think there is a time and a place for strategic thought and then there's a time and a place for operational execution. And I agree with you. I've seen good in both of those areas, which is that you have a plan, you have a lot of alignment about what should work for the type of product and solution and execution. And then you have people that are going to go out and attack it and you can measure objectively at that point. I think there is a difference when you're doing product development or where you got a vision. But there really is a crossover point I think that you're mentioning of who's going to actually do the work and are they willing to be held accountable or incented for the outcomes versus I'm gonna dabble. I'm gonna give you my opinion, but I'm not gonna roll up my sleeves, you know.

[B]

Yeah, that's. There's no skin and game. It's like I did it my job, here it is and then I'm out for the execution part. So I'm not gonna take responsibility for it. And then we can love that.

[A]

Yeah. I think you're sorry. I think you're dead on. I think the other side of it is, you know, entrepreneurs have. It's their baby. And so there is a marriage of how do you find the vision and alignment, but also the accountability and I think sometime anxiety of handing over your baby to somebody to run it. I think in the best of both worlds is that you have people that really feel like it's theirs and are willing to put their blood, sweat and tears into the business as much as the founder. And there's real accountability and real incentives. When you have aligned incentives, good things happen.

[B]

Absolutely. But also you need to get them right mindset because a lot of people that they have the incentive that maybe some money, the time, working from home, whatever it is, if you really not having the. I always say these two things that you have to be willing and able.

[A]

Well put lots of willing people. And then they get bored by the slog of entrepreneurialism or about are you really going to be resilient? I mean, we talk about there's a lot of brands and beauty aesthetics that need to break through the noise. There's lots of me too. How do you do that? Are you going to take the problems and inevitable challenges and rethink and adjust and respond? I find that there are people that talk a good game about wanting to do that and then when the first type of issues happen, they want to run from it. And so I think your point about you have to have the right mindset and the right experience and the willingness to take it, take a hit sometimes.

[B]

And so yesterday I was reminded a very popular quote from Franklin, I believe it was, is time is money. And I think for an entrepreneur, you need to understand that time is money. As an entrepreneur, you have a job to do, but also you need to surround yourself with the right people. You cannot be an entrepreneur without investing. You need to invest in the tools, people and time.

[A]

I completely agree and I probably would just build on that. That's it's. It has to go faster than what you would normally expect. The urgency. Entrepreneurs that have urgency are willing to take chances, make quick adjustments where appropriate, admit that maybe they made a mistake, but don't make it irreparable. So sticking to one strategy, you know, it's nice to have one. And then you have to adjust. And especially when you have a developing brand, you have to acknowledge that things aren't always going to go the way you expect. And more often than not, they don't. But it's about being adjusted.

[B]

And in My side, that in marketing we need to adjust constantly because the ecosystem, everything is changing. New platforms so we can really people, I think they confuse strategies with plan. Is your strategy what it is? It's a big picture, but then a plan is how we're going to execute it. And yet the plan, you need to be constantly looking at the planet, what's working and it doesn't work.

[A]

I completely agree. And in the American football, you know, with the super bowl coming up, more often than not you'll have all of these scripted plays and plans for the first half. It very much runs. You know, most of these games it is about halftime and about adjustments. And so the game you thought was going to go a certain way, get in at halftime, make adjustments, usually the team that's made the better adjustments wins. And so I'm, I'm, you know, the, the older more experience you get, the more you realize strategy is just a starting point and it's having the right partners that can be adjust and just quickly on marketing and sales a lot of times, like you said, the ecosystem is always changing, energy is changing in different areas. Respecting the fact and appreciating that. I don't know why that particular ad worked. We had a theory about it, it worked well. Let's learn more about that. Or if it didn't work well, don't stick to it.

[B]

Exactly. And I love that you made a parallel with football because at the end of the day it's all about team, teamwork and it's everyone working together. But this wouldn't have happened if you didn't have a trainer, if people didn't eat right. There are so many elements that will take you to that success.

[A]

I completely agree. And I think the other piece is, you know, entrepreneurialism and young brands can be lonely. And I think, you know, I talked about this a little bit in terms of how do you nurture it, how do you develop it. And I think as I mentioned, one of the reasons I think we have gotten along so well is this idea of being fearless but also wanting the right partners to be able to work together to handle the inevitable challenges that can come up. It's not always just a rocket ship. I love those stories, but it's usually because there's been a lot of work and a lot of training as you're alluding to.

[B]

Yes. Let me ask you a question because I think that people, young brands and mid market brands are struggling in sales process. I think nowadays is you can get your formulation right. There is a lot more knowledge about that. But then you have I seen so many brands. I have a brand now. What do I do? Where do I go? My belief is that you need to have proof of concept always. You need to make sure that you're. And you have the social proof. Today, without social proof, you cannot exist as a brand. But then how you use that information. And they say, okay, I have this. And when do you know that you're ready as a brand to sell in retail, to sell moms and pops? How do you know who you are as a brand and where to go? Because there are some people that they say, oh, I only want to go retail. You cannot go retail from one day to the next. Oh no, I just want to do spas. So how do I get into the spa?

[A]

I think you're. I love, I love the commentary and I think part of it is having a positioning statement. The brand I'm working most closely with, that I'm really excited about is althea skin with Dr. Shamban. One of the reasons I was attracted to that brand, just to go back to it, is you realize what the heritage and competence of the brand is. But multimodal medical device that's going through the FDA clearance process, different type of product, meaning it has a lot more heft, a lot more develop development capabilities. It requires a different hurdle to be able to be executed. So you automatically know this will be a product that will be, is clinically proven, is capable, can, can rest on the heritage of Dr. Ava and the potential of that brand. So I think having a medical device and then knowing it can go into ultimately physicians offices, into spa, into retail, into.

[B]

Do you believe, do you believe that you can do both the spa circuit and doctor's office and retail?

[A]

Yeah. And it's. That's one of the reasons I'm personally attracted that versus a standalone skin care line. So as an example, having a product that can be used as part of a regimen in professional locations on your face to get the experience, to get the value of it, and having clinical proven. Absolutely. That allows you to also take it home. There's very few products that I've worked on where it's easily translatable into professional care with the right clinical, clinical personnel, but also you can bring it home and match that up. I think to your point though, young brands that may not have that heritage may not have the gravitas of a Dr. Ava doesn't mean you can't break through because there's plenty of products that can break through in the right channels. I completely agree with you that if you don't match your strategy up thoughtfully and you try to do too much, you wind up doing nothing. I kind of liken this to organizational afib or heart condition, which is you just did everything but the heart's not pumping. I think being smart about when do you hit each milestone from a strategy standpoint allows you to be successful in each of those channels.

[B]

Well, I think that there is something else in young brands that they become the desperation.

[A]

Desperation, yeah.

[B]

Yes. That gets a point. That, okay, you have your product and they think that things will happen by magic and they don't. It's a process. So how do you do you handle that process and you handle the founder in this case. And because I feel like doing things in desperation is trying to like swim out of the water and you're really not swimming well and you're not doing anything and sometimes you don't even get anywhere.

[A]

Yeah, you are so right. Sorry.

[B]

How do you help those founders and say, hold on, stop, this is. I mean, I know that we're spending money, but how do you, from the financial part, how to justify and how you show the growth?

[A]

I think it's an excellent point and I think we're both laughing a little bit because it can happen where we're going to throw lots of things against the wall and hope it sticks.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or I'm desperate, you know, former brands where I just, I can't do anything anymore because I've run out of money. I really like the idea that when, you know, we talk about a brand, what is its trajectory, what is its heritage, where will it resonate most of all? And can we control a little bit of the action so that if you're going to ultimate want to be in retail, in general retail, what are the prerequisites that allow you to have a track record and performance and excitement that allows you to not just get into those locations, but also stay.

[B]

Are you prepared, prepare financially to get in those retails 100%. If you get that PO, can you pay for that?

[A]

Right, right. And no, It's a great point, but I think even then you haven't even talked about what are the steps that allow you to get a revenue track record and aware to go into a store, then you definitely don't have the prerequisites to say, do you realize how much it's going to cost to be able to produce, to fulfill, to support those products? So I completely agree. I also think though that direct to consumer can be used to a fault if you don't put the right marketing and support around it as well. And so if you have the right economic model in terms of the product line and who you're selling to, and then you have the right support infrastructure, you marry that to a financial plan by month, by quarter that allows you to say we can objectively say we're hitting our numbers or that we're having efficacy benefits. Then it's easy, it's less emotional. I think what you're, you're highlighting, and I completely agree, is that if you don't do that, then you could waste a year or two and say, well, I don't know what happened. We just, we didn't really hit what we wanted to hit. I really like making it even on the inception part, making it a business and holding everybody accountable for what actions we're taking.

[B]

But then we're going to go to the point that we started with that if you are not taking responsibility because you were doing your Instagram post instead of going and selling your product, it's impossible to hit those goals.

[A]

Completely agree. And what I would say is especially for physician led, clinician led, heritage type brand, where there's a lot you can be really intelligent about being the face of the brand. And I feel that that's important to breakthrough. But to your point, it can't be that you're doing that in lieu of everything else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of developing. I absolutely agree with you, but hopefully that makes sense. There is a very intelligent, targeted way of leveraging the founder. And in that way, as you can imagine, for me, I'm not the founder, but I'm the partner, I'm the helper, I'm the facilitator. And that allows Dr. Ava and you know, to be able to do the things that she normally does as a clinician.

[B]

Yeah. And the things that you're good at, you need to identify at some point. I'm good at this and I'm not good at that. And there are some things that I don't like it. To do it. So find someone in that is like doing someone accounting or bookkeeping is necessary. It's not optional. So I'm not good at it. So find someone who can do it for you.

[A]

I love it. And ironically the people that don't, if you don't love it, what a lot of times happens is they don't do it. So then you don't know what's going on. So to your point, it's so valuable to have the right service providers, the right partners to be, we've got a financial plan, we have a business plan, we have a marketing plan.

[B]

Well, procrastination is something in your gut telling you I don't want to do this and there is a reason for it.

[A]

Absolutely. And it doesn't get better hiding from it. It's so much better to have, you know, for our business we have a bi weekly cadence. We obviously are meeting every day and talking but in terms of the adherence to plan and execution, clear accountability, bi weekly updates even for a young brand and not everything is synchronized, but at least there's accountability which is like please.

[B]

Yeah, no, no. I think one of the most important thing like you were saying early on is choosing your partners and why are you choosing your partner? Are you choosing your partner because they had a, they did something great for another company but it's your company similar to that company or are you really big eyes and comparing yourself with a corporation that they've been a hundred years out there and they have unlimited funds. So you need to make sure that your service providers have a track record or they know to, to work with someone in similar circumstances.

[A]

Again I, I really agree with that and I think what I would say is that at times picking somebody that hasn't done it is more of a problem than somebody who's a little bit further along. So in the continuum you've been part of brands that are nurturing but also growth and bigger, you just have to make sure they're not too far ahead and that there is some evidence on your service providers, they've done it in the past.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Hopefully that makes sense.

[B]

Yes. But at the same time you need to make sure that those partners, they want to partner with you. That's. I think the key word here is partnership. That they want to be there for the long run and they are not there to be there with you for a few months because anything you do in, in your business is a long term and you're not going to see the results in a long, long time.

[A]

We, we used to talk about and I feel very strongly in my history about virtual vertical integration. A lot of times when you have a young brand or developing the founders, they don't have an organization, obviously it's them. They, they see it as a passion project or they see it as developing. At some point to your point you have providers or service providers that are essentially co owning it with you. Maybe not in reality when I say virtual vertical, but the idea that they are really in your corner, that they have skin in the game. And I completely agree with You. You don't want people that are just blase about the potential. And if things get hard, I got to go find another client.

[B]

Yeah, but also, there are a lot of founders that are very naive and they are attractive to people that talk pretty, and there's so many people that talk really pretty, and then they don't come with execution. But also, I have to say that founders, many times they say, this brand uses platform, and they did really great. Yes. But you don't know how much money they put in this platform. You don't know what the plan or the strategy was behind that. You cannot go and change things because another brand was successful. You have your own path. And if you work with professionals, and I'm talking about platforms, because that's what I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you probably see it from the financial part also say, oh, let's get this kind of loan, or let's get this kind of loan, or let's try to achieve this or okay, hold on. This might have worked for this brand because they were staying here. This were the starting point, but you don't have the starting point. You had another one. So you need to be very careful and work with a professional that can assess where you are, where you're starting, and where you're sitting right now.

[A]

I think it's such a great point you're making very much again, like football and stock picking. Trying to emulate what people have already done and assuming that there's commonality is a real fallacy to your point. It's so much better to have people that can diagnose where you are as you're mentioning and respectfully, objectively capture what needs to happen to hit the next milestone. It's not straight up into the right. There has to be an understanding of that. And you can see people will buy into stocks. And I use that in the equivalent for entrepreneurialism and say I want to emulate that you are idiosyncratic. You are one of one. You have to figure out if there are commonalities. But I completely agree with you is balance that with the fact that you are unique and your experience is different.

[B]

And again, one more time, we're gonna go back in the conversation and they takes you again to the urgency and the desperation. And brands, in desperation, they start making bad decisions.

[A]

Yep, absolutely. Or, you know, it's. It's again the Hail Mary kind of, of, you know, not to overplay it, but Hail Mary of I got to do this now to fix it. There's a lot there can be flailing I'm much bigger of a fan of knowing the time horizon to develop. What are the key milestones to your point, can we have the right partners that do it right? The first time we were talking before we joined about this idea of fixing brands, if there's already been three advertising agencies or, you know, a regulatory delay or you know at some point you're going to get it right, but the opportunity is get the right partners that will help you as quickly and as early as possible that are aligned with your vision. And when that happens, there's always something that's an exogenous factor that's going to be a challenge. But you're not going to have the self inflicted problems.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, David, this was great. I didn't realize that we've been talking for a very long time and it's time to say goodbye and to I'm so excited that we had this conversation because I really think that we're helping a lot of people with this information. Thank you so much for being so sharing.

[A]

I really appreciate, thank you so much for having me on and I really admire you.

[B]

Okay, likewise. And to you guys. We will see you next week with more coffee. Number five. Find everything you need at larashmoisman.com or in the episode notes right below. Don't forget to subscribe. Was so good to have you here today. See you next time. Catch you on the flip side. Ciao, ciao.