The Art of Brewing & Selling Experiences with Kate Fannin

Summary

Podcast Summary: Coffee N° 5 with Lara Schmoisman – Episode: The Art of Brewing & Selling Experiences with Kate Fannin

Release Date: February 11, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Coffee N° 5, host Lara Schmoisman engages in a dynamic conversation with Kate Fannin, a seasoned expert in consumer-centric marketing. Lara expresses her excitement about reconnecting with Kate after a few years, highlighting Kate’s impressive career trajectory spanning renowned brands like Nordstrom and Gap. The discussion sets the stage for an in-depth exploration of modern marketing strategies centered around consumer experiences.

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Consumer-Centric Marketing

The conversation kicks off with a strong emphasis on the importance of being consumer-centric in today’s marketing landscape. Kate shares her personal commitment to understanding consumer behavior, humorously noting, “I call myself the consummate consumer because I am always in stores, online, assessing, evaluating” (01:55). Lara echoes this sentiment, underscoring the shift from one-way marketing to a two-way, highly interactive engagement with consumers.

Notable Quote:

Kate Fannin: “Marketing isn't what it used to be in the sense that it was one way. Now it's two way, 100%. You have to listen to the consumer.” (02:42)

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Beyond Omnichannel: Channel Agnostic Marketing

Moving beyond the traditional omnichannel approach, Kate introduces the concept of being channel agnostic. She explains that consumers now interact with brands across various platforms—online stores, social media, and physical locations—in distinct ways. Therefore, brands must tailor their content and engagement strategies to fit the context of each channel.

Notable Quote:

Kate Fannin: “It's not just about your content but your context. How are they receiving it, how are they engaging with it?” (03:16)

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The Importance of Customer Experience

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the pivotal role of customer experience in driving sales and brand loyalty. Kate emphasizes that consumers are willing to pay for meaningful experiences, whether it’s virtual try-ons in online stores or personalized interactions in physical retail spaces.

Notable Quote:

Kate Fannin: “People buy things, but they pay for experiences.” (04:26)

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Email Marketing Strategies

Lara and Kate delve into effective email marketing strategies, highlighting the necessity of targeted and meaningful communication. They caution against mass emailing, advocating instead for personalized campaigns that resonate with engaged customers.

Notable Quote:

Kate Fannin: “Don't send emails to everyone all the time. Target those who engage with you.” (09:03)

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Return on Experience (ROE)

Introducing the concept of Return on Experience (ROE), Kate argues that traditional ROI metrics fall short in capturing the full value of consumer interactions. She references Jane Lauder’s pioneering work on ROE, explaining its importance in measuring long-term customer relationships and brand loyalty.

Notable Quote:

Kate Fannin: “Return on experience. You can't talk about just ROI anymore.” (06:12)

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Link Selling and Product Pairing

The duo discusses the strategy of link selling, where brands encourage customers to purchase complementary products. This approach not only enhances the consumer experience but also drives additional sales by addressing broader customer needs.

Notable Quote:

Kate Fannin: “If you sold the lipstick, why not suggest the liner or gloss that complements it?” (11:46)

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Branding and Storytelling

A robust brand story is essential for differentiating a brand in a crowded market. Kate stresses the importance of consistency in branding across all channels and touchpoints, ensuring that every team member embodies the brand’s values and narrative.

Notable Quote:

Kate Fannin: “What is your story? What do you stand behind?” (23:51)

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Agility in Small Brands

Kate highlights the agility that small brands possess, allowing them to swiftly adapt to market changes and consumer feedback. This flexibility is contrasted with larger brands, which often have longer time-to-market due to their extensive structures.

Notable Quote:

Kate Fannin: “With a small brand, you have to be agile because you're competing against these larger brands that have been around forever.” (21:43)

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The Role of AI in Marketing

While acknowledging the transformative potential of Artificial Intelligence (AI), Kate advises maintaining an authentic and human touch in brand interactions. She cautions that AI, in its current state, lacks the emotional depth that consumers seek, especially in industries like beauty where sensory experiences are paramount.

Notable Quote:

Kate Fannin: “AI is two-dimensional at least right now… there's no emotion involved.” (34:03)

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Future of Retail and Brand Interconnection

In discussing the future of retail, Kate emphasizes the need for brands to remain interconnected with evolving consumer behaviors and technological advancements. She advocates for strategic targeting beyond generational labels, focusing on interests and behaviors to reach diverse audiences effectively.

Notable Quote:

Kate Fannin: “You can target people by interest, by zip code, or what they like.” (42:21)

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Lara and Kate reiterating the critical takeaway: consumers buy experiences, not just products. They encourage brands to prioritize authentic engagement, consistent storytelling, and strategic agility to build lasting relationships with their audience.

Final Quote:

Kate Fannin: “People buy things, but they pay for experiences. So I hope we have other consumers out there that love to consume.” (44:48)

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Key Insights and Takeaways

1. Consumer-Centric Focus: Prioritize understanding and addressing consumer needs across all interactions.
2. Channel Agnostic Approach: Tailor content and strategies to fit the unique context of each platform.
3. Enhancing Customer Experience: Create meaningful and engaging experiences that foster loyalty and repeat business.
4. Targeted Marketing: Utilize data-driven strategies for personalized communication, especially in email marketing.
5. Return on Experience (ROE): Measure the impact of customer experiences on long-term brand success.
6. Link Selling: Encourage complementary purchases to enhance the consumer journey and increase sales.
7. Consistent Branding: Maintain a unified brand story and message across all channels to build strong brand equity.
8. Agility for Small Brands: Leverage the flexibility of smaller operations to swiftly adapt to market changes.
9. Authentic Use of AI: Integrate AI thoughtfully, ensuring it complements rather than replaces the human element in branding.
10. Strategic Targeting: Move beyond generational marketing to focus on specific interests and behaviors for more effective audience engagement.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Kate Fannin: “Marketing isn't what it used to be in the sense that it was one way. Now it's two way, 100%. You have to listen to the consumer.” (02:42)
• Kate Fannin: “People buy things, but they pay for experiences.” (04:26)
• Kate Fannin: “Don't send emails to everyone all the time. Target those who engage with you.” (09:03)
• Kate Fannin: “Return on experience. You can't talk about just ROI anymore.” (06:12)
• Kate Fannin: “What is your story? What do you stand behind?” (23:51)
• Kate Fannin: “With a small brand, you have to be agile because you're competing against these larger brands that have been around forever.” (21:43)
• Kate Fannin: “AI is two-dimensional at least right now… there's no emotion involved.” (34:03)
• Kate Fannin: “You can target people by interest, by zip code, or what they like.” (42:21)
• Kate Fannin: “People buy things, but they pay for experiences. So I hope we have other consumers out there that love to consume.” (44:48)

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Coffee N° 5 offers a wealth of knowledge for entrepreneurs and marketers aiming to thrive in a consumer-driven market. Through a candid and comprehensive dialogue, Lara Schmoisman and Kate Fannin illuminate the pathways to creating unforgettable customer experiences and building resilient, adaptable brands. As the marketing landscape continues to evolve, the insights shared in this episode remain invaluable for those striving to turn business ambitions into tangible success.

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For more insights and strategies on running, growing, and scaling a successful business, subscribe to Coffee N° 5 and visit larashmoisman.com.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

This is Coffee Number Five. I'm your host, Lara Schmoisman. Hi you guys. Welcome back to Coffee Number Five. You know, I'm always excited. I cannot say that every episode I'm excited because I get to talk to amazing people and that normally I see them around, we talk for a little bit here and they are. But never I can get that conversation and I can, I'm curious and I have all these questions. So I have the opportunity today to talk to someone that I met her two, three years ago and then we were busy life get in between at that point. Kate Fenning. I'm probably said your last name wrong because I always do it. You were at Estello there. But your trajectory is incredible. You were a Nimitz, you were at Nordstrom, at Gap. And I'm missing a few ones in the in between. But your experience, but not only that, your point of view is. It's unique. So let's first welcome. Thank you so much for being here. You're really hard woman to nail down to a date, but we did it. I'm so glad you're here. And so something that re resonate with me from, from our first conversation after you were talking at beating matter was. And this was, I was, I'm talking about two years ago, probably three or two and a half. It was your point of view about the consumer and how everything is consumer centric. And I could not agree more about that because everything I do in my agency as a marketer is see what are the consumer problems and to resolve them.

[A]

Yes, I completely agree. And I call myself the consummate consumer because I am always in stores, online, assessing, evaluating. I even had a friend tell me once, Kate, can we just shop? Can you stop profiling the store? Because I so appreciate how any customer engages, whether it's with a brand, a store, a channel, content, all of it. Everyone consumes a little bit differently. But the consumer point of view is number one at this point. Marketing isn't what it used to be in the sense that it was one way. Here's print I'm showing to you. Here's a commercial, here's a billboard, here's a radio ad. Now it's two way, 100%. You have to listen to the consumer.

[B]

If you're not, you're giving me the chills. You are just saying the same thing I've been talking about for years and years. And now actually in this 2025, we are getting to the next level. Level, which is SEO is everywhere. I mean everything in the algorithm is going to be real like each platform, Instagram, TikTok, Amazon, everyone is a search engine in themselves. So you need to start using keywords. And this is how we need to approach to reach to our consumers 100%.

[A]

And the listening is key as I mentioned. And the other piece is, you know, they're shopping like you said, everywhere, they're consuming everywhere. So it isn't even, it's beyond omnichannel. I don't even like that term anymore. It's channel agnostic. So the way people shop in online versus a store versus TikTok, it's not the same. And you have to think about not only your content but your context. So the content you're developing, how are they receiving it, how are they engaging with it? Because a lot of online frankly not super exciting. It's replenishment or research. There's a ton of research going on. But that's, that's one of my really what I should TM trademark is I say that people buy things, they pay for experiences very different. So you buy stuff when you go to the store or grocery or whatever, you buy stuff on Amazon but you pay for an experience whether it is an online engagement or whether it's trying the makeup on virtually whether it's in store talking to a human, touching, smelling, trying. That's an experience. People will pay for that.

[B]

Yeah, that's so interesting. You're saying this because I'm reading a book completely. Well, nothing is not connected anymore. Everything is connected. But this is. It was telling the experience of a consultant who went was hired to see why a store, it was a big name store, wasn't working and what they were, their sales were not bigger, they were not growing and where was their failing? And they found out that the failure was actually in the sales process. That people that they go to a store, they are expecting to have a different experience. And the salespeople saying hey, I don't want to approach because maybe I don't make the sale. So they weren't grading or approaching the customer for the needs or the experience that they expect by going to a store.

[A]

Well and stores even that has evolved so much and how you work with a customer, engage with them, talk to them as simple as saying hey, welcome in. That makes a difference than just somebody walking in and you get the once over. That's a huge difference between whether I'm going to buy something or not. I recently went to, I'm a knitter so I was in a yarn yarn warehouse basically and it's wasn't even that organized yarn everywhere. But the guy who owns the store and is a knitting master was so lovely and so wonderful in teaching me and showing me and recommending this versus this. He was so authentic. I went in for one thing. Of course I bought six or seven. I mean because it was an engaging experience. I would pay for that versus absolutely.

[B]

I mean let's agree like products for example beauty products. We don't need those beauty products. We want those beauty products and but if someone can explain what they potentially can do for us or how to use it and they make that experience.

[A]

Knowledge is power 100% and it's people looking are now looking for efficacy. Right. What does the product do for me especially in beauty. And you can research everywhere even if it's just your friends telling your friend posting hey guys, I tried this and it's awesome. And that's how I post. I'm not an influencer but I'll post something and say this worked. I really recommend it. And my friends will say I trust you Kate, you've been in beauty a long time. Where else are they going to do compare all their research? So you will go online. And that's another thing that I stand behind really strongly that I heard. You know, Jane Lauder was the first one who said it. But return on experience. Roe, you'll hear me say that every time I'm talking because you can't talk about just ROI anymore because I might go into your store or try one of your products. Might take me a month, two months, six months to try more of that. But that is the experience that you return on versus she came in, she didn't buy no roi.

[B]

It's about watching it's experience. But even in digital it's the same thing. It's about creating a pleasant experience. You don't need to like in marketing we talk about always those pillars. Those pillars are different kind of information that you're feeding your customer in little pieces at a time to get to know your brand and later on to make a decision. And this is for goes for new brands that even if you have a decent budget, not huge budget and you're spending money every month is about the awareness and people to get to know the brand and to trust and then see the difference with one product and try another one and then when they become recurrent then you need to maintain that client.

[A]

Yes, because you're right, I might have just tried one. But how do you get me to try more? How do you link sell, how do. How do you get me involved further in the brand? And now with data everywhere, there's no excuse to say, well, we didn't reach out, we don't have your information. Nobody doesn't have my information at this point. It's too easy, whether it is through an email, which now seems kind of old, right? Getting an email.

[B]

Don't touch my emails. I'm still an email believer.

[A]

I am too, don't get me wrong. But I wish people would be a little more diligent about subscribing and unsubscribing because once you get too many, they don't look at anything. So I think that's. That's another area of opportunity for sure is how do you cut through in email?

[B]

I think this is a brand's responsibility too. Not to send emails to everyone all the time, just to send them, to target them. Engagement for you. Exactly.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

And it's something that I do all the time for my clients is I create campaigns. When you create the strategy, your strategy is not let's send emails to everyone all the time is let's send emails to the ones who engage with us or they bought this product, so it's time to get. To refill the product. It's to think it a little more through and not to be that brand that sends. Send. Sends emails.

[A]

No, nobody wants to be bombarded because then you're. It's noise. And you're right. With people that have engaged, even if they haven't purchased, that's engagement that you see the emails that say, oh, we saw that you were taking a look. We saw that you have this in your basket. I kind of like those. They remind me, oh, yeah, I got distracted and I didn't. Or why didn't I purchase? Did I find something else? Was I distracted or did I get hit up with another ad or a better email? Those are all things that weigh into being a consumer. And if the brand or the retailer is not evaluating this, they'll be lost completely. They will not be gaining, they'll be losing market share because somebody else is going to take that space. If you're not listening, I, I love.

[B]

That you mentioned that, that these are metrics that a lot of people forget to check. Like how many people really put our product in the cart. That is an almost win, but it's not a win. Why did we fail to make the transaction? Mm.

[A]

Well, it's engagement.

[B]

A lot of it.

[A]

Well, some of it is. Did you, did you close, did you close the loop? I, I still always Use the example, and I love it of a car dealership. Right where you go in there, you're looking around and it's a joke, but not really. When they say, what's it gonna take to get you in the car today? What's it gonna take to have you click by or to walk up the register in the store? Is it a point of purchase sale? I think about the grocery, you know, all the. That's right there. There's a reason it's there. You're going to grab it and, you know, buy it there too. So there's a reason that beauty products, they keep certain things at the register. I'm also a huge advocate of link selling and think it's a massive opportunity that especially in beauty, they don't always follow through on which is, you bought the lipstick. I might be new to beauty. Do I need a liner? Do I need a gloss? Do I even know what to do with those? You have to think further down the line of great, I sold her a lipstick. What do I do next?

[B]

Do I need a lipstick? That lipstick will go really well with this liner or this lipstick even. You can go in social and you can. This is something that I'm a super fun. And it's collaboration. Like it's what brand? That is not. It's not your competition. I don't believe in competition. I believe that there are room for everyone and how we align. And you can align, let's say you are Stella there and maybe you align with Coco Chanel and so you can put in social, say, this will match with this. Great. And it's aspirational and it's giving the people the whole look.

[A]

Well, look at in a brand like elf. I mean, they have. They have collaborated with Chipotle, for instance. I mean, they're all over the board. Mac, of course, has collaborated with tons of celebrities, singers, et cetera, themes, Wonder Woman, all of those. And there's a comfort to that, especially if I'm new to a brand or I find it intimidating. But I know the collaborator. So again, that goes back to the experience of it or a lot of these things can be intimidating. So we mentioned the lipstick liner. Great. Take it a step further. What's the service? I don't know how to use those. I need a how to. Whether it's online or right there in the store. Don't take it for granted that people understand just because you sold them a product, especially something like a serum. That's another one that I think my friends, you know, working on our 50s still say, and they're embarrassed to ask me, Kate, what. What's the serum? I don't. I don't really know what to do with it because it's out there.

[B]

I'm just, I'm laughing because I have the same question asked to me so many times. You'll be surprised of people saying, I really need a face cleanser. That's the one that is like, stop. Everyone needs a face cleanser.

[A]

Cleanser.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, certainly young men. So my nephews, I try to educate them on skin care. And guys, don't be scared. You really only need a few products to start out, but please clean your skin, please. You don't need nine moisturizers and all these other things. And under eye creams, you're only 20. But please clean your skin. And if you don't know where to start, I'll help you. You could start at CVS and we'll start there. You don't have to buy Tom Ford. I mean, we can get you into this without being scary. But again, that's part of the service element for a customer. We have to break down these barriers. Just because there's all this information doesn't know. Doesn't mean they know how to consume it, doesn't mean they know exactly what to do with it. There's almost too much.

[B]

And it doesn't mean that a brand that you buy, that CVS is not going to do for you what the Tom Ford brand does.

[A]

Totally. Totally. I'm a huge fan of drugstores, Kate.

[B]

Why a consumer might choose to buy NCVS instead of Ford or the other way around?

[A]

Well, a lot of depends on what's the need and what are they exposed to already. Are their friends telling this is crazy. Aunt Kate telling them this? Are they seeing things online again? You're being hit up with ads everywhere. You're even seeing, you know, product placement in TV shows. And I don't know if you're watching the show Landman, but clearly Michelob Ultra is doing a partnership with them. It's in every bar scene there. So it depends on how they're getting the information. But if they. Some of it's just plain old budget. So I need to start with Sarah vay. Fantastic. I'm a big, like I said, big fan of drugstores. And now the drugstore beauty section is really engaging. I mean, look at Target. It's fantastic. I'll go wander around there anytime and I'll bring friends in and say, let me show you how awesome Target Beauty and Target at Ulta have become. And now I'm finding that Sephora for a lot of people is overwhelming or it's too young. I'm finding that friends around my age, 40s, 50s, are saying, that's for my kids. I'll take her in and I'll buy her her things. But, you know, it's not really where I feel.

[B]

Yeah, it's just too. I agree with you. There is just the experience is too much for the ones who we know what we want and what we need and we're even.

[A]

We're in the beauty field and sometimes it's overwhelming and it changes so much too. That's the other thing. So, you know, one thing I learned, you know, at Nordstrom is be cautious on how quickly you change, especially trends, because people don't consume as often as we are selling and promoting. They only. They might buy beauty twice a year.

[B]

Yeah, well, that I think is a point that you just made about. In that case, a forum might be a little going too young that people younger, they need to change more often. Older generation, we want more the classics, more that. Less options. And I want information. I mean, I believe that now there are some trigger words that they are cruelty free. At this point, everyone should be cruelty free.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

At this point. Sustainability. Exactly. Everyone is trying for sustainability. Clean beauty. Everyone should have the basic clean beauty standards. So it's like how we raise the bar, how we make the difference. I seen so many brands, new brands just doing the same over and over is like, you cannot compete with the big brands. So what are you doing different? You need to do something either from your ingredients or your branding or something that will make you stand out from the crowd.

[A]

Well, or go one further is what problem are you solving? For me, that goes back to efficacy. So whether it is I have dry skin. Well, there's tons of moisturizers out there. What makes yours different? Same thing with the collection of your products. If you have 19 products that say that they are good for dry skin, I'm out. I don't know where to start. So you have to be really diligent about how you are targeting and attracting consumers. I love that smaller brands start with three SKUs. You talked about this on a previous podcast. I think it's so true. Especially if a founder is involved. They have such a passion, which I so admire and respect. But the marketing piece of it or the engagement piece of it has to think a little bit ahead. So are we going to be adding to the line? Are we moving into another category? If Your nails, you know, nail polish, Are you going to move into hand creams and further go up the arm, if you will. If it's a face product, skin care, are you going to move into body product or do you want to stay small? So I think a big part of it is collection, if you will. What's the connection? So you have a big collection.

[B]

I always say, I always say you have a brand because you're working on the branding, you're working on the problem, you're working on who is your target audience and to resolve their problem. Or you have a collection of products that you're selling and that's completely fine. But also that will tell you where you can sell. Because unless you are Chanel or you're a big brand that you can really diversify and do it well everywhere, if you're a younger brand and you have a collection of products, you are going to miss that special thing that makes unique, that is your hero, what you are known for, right?

[A]

As a founder, sometimes you have one shot out of the gate and for instance, if you launch with skincare, but then six months later you know you've got some sort of nail polish. I'm confused, you know, what is your focus? And you have to be passionate as a founder behind why you're launching this. What is it solving? Again, I go back to, I've got a pain point that I'm solving.

[B]

And as a founder, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work to launch a line. And if you start going, you're working with labs, you're working with packaging, you're working with formulation, you're working with ingredients. There's so many distribution 3pl, so many things that if you are starting to diversify and you don't have the support and the team, things are going to start falling through the cracks.

[A]

Yes. And ultimately it's a passion project for a founder. You're going to work 247 because you believe in it and you want to stand behind it. And the storytelling is so important. And that's why, again, when you launch out of the gate, what is your perspective? Why is this going to market? Why is it being created? I think another example you gave in another podcast was about the science. Do you need to include the science? It depends on your target market. If somebody's 22 versus 62, it's a very different way of consuming. Very different. And how they research and what they want in the product, what they'll pay, even the packaging has a huge impact on how they're engaging.

[B]

Yeah, no, I mean when I, I love to work with brands from the very beginning. I love to work from the conception and I don't believe, and we were discussing about this that everything, it should be a long process because trends are important to what's going on in the industry. So you can't be waiting and trying to make, have the perfect product and take own. It's never perfect because by the time you get it at the perfection, the time was gone and you have 20 other products that they're competing with yours. But I believe that since. Go ahead.

[A]

Yeah. With a small brand you have to be agile because you're competing against these larger brands that have been around forever. Something in the L'Oreal space, something in the Estee Lauder space where their, you know, time to market is quite long because there's a huge workforce behind this in the lab and the science and the packaging and the levels you have to go through versus if you're five people and a founder, you better turn that around pretty quickly and you can be more agile as you get it to market. You might only be in two boutiques or on Amazon, but turn it around.

[B]

Also because as a younger brand you're not going to have access to the technologies or the pricing that a big brand has.

[A]

Sure, yeah, you don't have to.

[B]

You need to be fast. Time is money, very fast.

[A]

But again, you can be super agile with nobody bought my brown eyeliner, I need to switch that up quick and you know, a little bit advanced. You're not usually over inventoried because you have to start small anyway. So it's almost like a pilot. You have the great advantage of putting a few things out there, see how they're consumed, who's buying them and you can switch it around pretty quickly.

[B]

Also let's talk about a few other things that they are regulations I change and they are like standards unchanged. So you might need to pivot or an ingredient that becomes unavailable. There's.

[A]

Oh yeah, they're so aware of ingredients now and customers know if you have an ingredient list of 5 vs 25. If I can't pronounce half of them, I might be a little reluctant, especially if it's coming from a smaller founder, smaller brand. So again, they're looking at everything and the customer will tell you.

[B]

And honestly, if you're a smaller brand, your marketing needs to be very tight. That's one of the biggest advice that I can give you. Your packaging needs to be beautiful and perfect and clean and you love on it to be clean. I've seen so many young brands having different logos in different places. That's not brand awareness.

[A]

You create a confusion, it's inconsistency and ultimately they don't know who you are or what you stand for. And you're right. If the site experience is extremely different from the package or your own website is not the way that Amazon is depicting it, it's really confusing because people, as I said, they're channel agnostic. If I see your product, you know, in the store and I know it and I've used it and that logo and the name, oh yeah, I'll pick one up. It's, it's part of the story. And I think that's what is important with a founder too is what is your story? What do you stand behind? Whether it's three words or a paragraph, but stick with it, of course, I.

[B]

Call that the brand story. For each one of my brands, I create something that is a brand story. Who is our consumer, where we found that we know absolutely everything, what are the problems? And, and then when we sign off on this brand story, this is our brand story and it's not going to be changed. And you need to walk the talk. You need to. You cannot say, I like tomatoes, I like tomatoes. I say, I know I don't like tomatoes. That you confuse your audience.

[A]

You do. And it's, I mean, that's part of your brand equity that people should be really proud of and that they want to stand behind. That makes a huge difference also on consumer loyalty. So if, if your story as a founder is strong and you always stick behind it, I'm a customer who loves your brand. I'm going to be one of your advocates. I'm going to talk about it on social, I'm going to tell my friends, I'm going to keep buying it. I'll give you feedback directly. It's. You create your own marketing base with your customers. If you have a consistent message and a consistent brand, absolutely.

[B]

But there is a lot more. And this is not only going for beauty brands, but goes for every brand. They need to be a passionate team. It's not only about the founder, it's about the whole team and whoever is involved in the process to make this brand from the packaging, from your chemist, everyone needs to be in the same direction. So when you start the brand and you can be a big company or you can be a small company, I don't care. Everyone needs to be on board with the same, same beliefs and to have the same Understanding, I mean, you can have it from manufacturing. I believe that we have it in marketing. My SEO people need to understand the brand as the same as my designer because otherwise they're going to be giving completely different messages.

[A]

So look at an example. This is a little bit out of, certainly out of our realm is Chick Fil A. Everyone knows that you're going to get a super high level of service and down to the people in the store are so nice. All of them are nice and they're known for that. So that's part of their brand equity or Red Wing. I love Red Wing. It's a legacy brand started in sort of construction and boots and. But it's very fashion forward if you sell it right and stand behind it.

[B]

Or let's talk about Trader Joe's that everyone is so friendly and they're gonna tell you how your day goes. And that's part of the brand story too, or how you want to interact with your consumer. So if you have a brand, you cannot forget how you're going to talk to that person and how are you going to talk to them in TikTok and how we're going to talk to them in Instagram. That is what we mentioned before in different channels. But you cannot lose who you are.

[A]

Exactly. And the same with the service level. So for instance, you know, Whole Foods, I believe their service level has declined since they were, you know, kind of bought by Amazon and then Pandemic didn't help them either. But I remember how special it was to go to Whole Foods and now it's not as special.

[B]

I feel like I was going to Whole Foods and there were experts that I can talk to. Like in the vitamin areas. I felt like there were someone that I can really talk to. Now I don't feel that even though that's not that quality. But there is something. I mean, you've been in working in companies that have stores, physical stores, and this is a challenge that I see a lot of brands having from transitioning from D to C or to be little here and there to getting to retail and then educating. Because to me that's a whole different part of marketing that the brand is when you sign a partnership with someone, you need to start that part of marketing. You cannot say, I'm done now, I got in.

[A]

You're so right. And I, I will always hold near and dear to me is stores, because I grew up in stores, started on the sales floor. And I always encourage anybody that's going to work for a brand. You need to work In a store, you need to see how customers interact with your brand. And in fact, think about some of these large companies that I've worked for is, are they in the store? Do the leader, does leadership get into the store very often? I can tell you right now that Nordstrom does. The Nordstrom family was often in the store so that they understood what was going on. And in fact, I still fully respect their inverted pyramid, which means the customers were always on the top, leadership was on the bottom of the pyramid because that's who comes first. And right below them were sales, Salesforce, sales team, all the people that were sellers, highly respected. Because just as you said, if you're not engaging the salespeople and educating them, then again, you're going to be sunk because you want them to be passionate about your service, your product, your brand. That is a huge part of engagement. And I'll tell you that stores in general, they never went anywhere. They're still there. And people say, oh, stores are back. Little fact. But during pandemic online, online sales didn't really outpace stores in certain categories. They didn't because stores are still super important. They're not going anywhere. They didn't go away. It's just a different way to handle that channel. Now, if you haven't updated your selling model in a store, you might be declining a little bit.

[B]

But tell me a little more about what's this upgrade selling style.

[A]

What do you say that again when.

[B]

You'Re talking about these upgrading of the sales?

[A]

That's the link selling. So, yeah, you start with, oh, you came in just for some shoes. Well, let me also show you the sandals in the same brand or am I selling you the socks and the boots and the insoles? You should be. Absolutely. Or at least show me. And that's another thing that Nordstrom did so well is they bring you out one pair of shoes. But I brought, I brought you two others that are similar or from a different brand. You're going to try all of those on. And you know, going back to my yarn store example is if you are nice to me and you just chat with me and tell me more about your expertise or your brand. Gucci is the same way. There's a beautiful Gucci store in SoHo in New York. Wow. Are they engaging, but on a relatable level. And that is a huge part of it too. When you go into a store and there's four things hanging and it's all white walls and I don't even know where the register is, it's Very intimidating. It's like a museum. I don't really know what to do in here, but if it is, hey, how you doing? Even if it's in a luxury space. That's awesome. Or a Dyson store where you can use all the products. I should be able to try the products.

[B]

It's also about authority. These brands that you're mentioning, they all create their own authority. They work hard to get that authority. And that authority means credibility.

[A]

Yes. I mean, look at Gap there, knowing.

[B]

That you're not going to go wrong. So there is no doubt.

[A]

Right and true. There's a reason they've been around, they've evolved. I look at Gap, who had a little bit of a dip, but now they're coming back by going back to their legacy and what made them so popular and going back to that same marketing element. And what do we stand for? Denim. We're coming back around to that. Great. Look at J. Crew printing a catalog again. Awesome. So people too. A lot more coming back to print.

[B]

I believe that there's so many marketers that actually they underestimate the power of printing.

[A]

I agree 100%. I've even seen some D2C brands have sent me mailers and I thought, wow, that's pretty impressive. So. And on a side note, I've even been at recent conferences and dinners where people have said, can I get your card? So people are going back to business cards.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I never. I never stopped. There is an experience of giving a business card. Business card tells you so much of how. Who you are and what you stand for and because you can make a note. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And we met at Beauty Matter. Yep.

[B]

Yeah. And also, for example, I wrote like, when I gave a business card, I remember the experience of giving it reminds you who gave it to you.

[A]

Yes. That's why I, you know, I think it's so smart to have them now. And I will write on it, actually, like, we met at Shop Talk and it was at this dinner. Then you can follow up and I can write you an actual email instead of just a LinkedIn message, which sometimes you're LinkedIn, you know, and so.

[B]

And honestly, this been happening to me a lot. I mean, I'm the only one with business cards and I need to find people later on in LinkedIn. And what did we meet? It's like it's not the same.

[A]

Where there's. And that goes back to context. Hugely important. And I think that's what we tend to forget in, you know, in the online and AI World. And again, look how far we chatted without saying AI. So you know. Yeah, points to us.

[B]

That shows how old school we are.

[A]

See, I love it. I wouldn't call it old school as much as maybe authentic.

[B]

Okay, authentic school. I love that. Well, as important I think AI is and we use it and I actually encourage my team to use it all the time because we cannot get behind. But I think you still need to be the brain behind AI. I love what you were saying about context because the context is who your brand is for, who is related and you need to have part of that narrative, like it comes from packaging, even what ingredients you're going to be using. For example, if you're going to be using a retinoid in beauty, you're going to want to think, okay, retinoids is for certain skin concerns or for mature skin. You're not going to go for a young brand.

[A]

No. Well, and think about a founder. What we were saying is if the founder is so passionate and wants to tell their story, if they go right to AI, it's not authentic. Because remember, and I think not enough people say this is that AI is two dimensional at least right now, who knows a little bit later. But right now it's two dimensional. There's no emotion involved in it and there's no more than a couple of senses. Right. You can hear it, you can see it, but you can't smell it, you can't taste it, you can't touch it. So especially in a beauty product, you can tell me a huge story in paragraphs about how we made this and the science behind it and you'll love it and even show me the pictures of it. I still can't smell it, I still can't touch it. So we're not that evolved yet. So I agree with you. AI is going to be table stakes. It's a non negotiable. It's going to change our world. Absolutely. So we can't discount it, but we do have to put it in context. I liken it to when we launched the Internet. Same thing, everybody. Whoa. It's going to change the world. It did 100% but some steps. Yes. Just like the iPhone. I think AI right now is about it. An iPhone, level two. Remember when iPhone started super cool change. What are we at? IPhone, you know, 15, 16, 16. Yeah, it's going to take a minute. So it's not the end all be all. And I think a lot of people are scared of it.

[B]

Like what you were saying, two dimensional is the same with Brands that they're only thinking about the founder and the founder. You're not just the only problem to resolve. And this, I'm talking about any kind of brands, not only beauty brands. You might have a problem, but you need to make sure that others ones have it as well.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you need to know your numbers because if there are not enough people having that problem, you might not be able to get the return of investment.

[A]

That's a great point that, yeah, you might be solving a problem, but is it for 10 people or is it for 10,000 people? That's a big, big difference. A lot of investment has to go into a new product. So is it worth it? Now that one, I'll give you the roi, the classic KPI of return on investment.

[B]

Yeah, for sure, Absolutely. I seen and I tell this story so many times that my husband is a product designer and there's so many people that come to him with product ideas and the first thing he asks is, did you do your research? And nobody did it. And there were always someone who did it before. Very few times that we found something so unique. Then cost of manufacture, what is going to cost you? But then what is your market research? It's someone interesting then in buying your product. And you need to know all these things before you start investing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Or finding investment.

[A]

I was going to say think about Shark Tank, you know, that you have to have. That's the right one. Right. Where you propose your product and whether or not it's. Yeah, it's good enough. But if you don't do your research, then again, where's, where's the authenticity of it? What problem am I solving? Is it, is there efficacy to it if it's, you know, a beauty brand, things like that. So a lot has to go into building your brand other than I'm so passionate about X product. And let me tell you why I'm so passionate. Everybody's passionate about something, but you're right, there's tons of them out there for the most part.

[B]

So get your data. Data doesn't lie. So when you want to go and get any kind of product, you need to make sure that you can be as passionate as you want. And you want to be passionate and you want your team to be even obsessed with your product because that's what is going to make you wake up in the morning and keep going. But you want to make sure that you have the data behind you, supporting you, so you know that there is someone out there, that it will take time. And I'm not Going to lie about this will take time. It's not going to be an overnight success. Because actually you should be afraid of overnight success and but you need to make sure that you have all the pieces of the puzzle so later on you can really build that brand and be successful.

[A]

Totally agree, totally agree. And it goes, you know, it's the old trajectory of can I attract the customer, can I engage them, will they convert and then will they come back? So you have to kind of think about all of these in your product. You might be able to engage them but nobody's buying it because there's another competitive product that's better. Or I took in this new awesome customer base, they're not very interested. Okay, well then what do you do? Or they buy it once and don't come back. That's a problem too. Since they're your. Guess what, they're your new marketers. They're telling other people about it, they're posting, they're sharing. Then you have to treat your consumer the right way. I mean, and that comes back to how do people consume the consumption element.

[B]

Absolutely. Before we go, and I promise this will be my last question, I. Because you've been in so many spaces, you went from denim to a store like Nordstrom but then you were in a beauty related. What do you see? Because I'm a big believer that you cannot put just brands, whatever brand your category you are in, just put it in a box. You're part of the trend, you're part of a bigger ecosystem of how you interconnect. So how do you see the future of retail interconnecting brands or not?

[A]

It's a great question because some of it's. We have to wait and see. Some of it is interpreting again how your, your customer is consuming your product and where, what are the right channels? That's a big piece of it too. And understanding everything from the product development and the packaging, the whole circle of the branding and the product, where does it fit in to what retail element, and I think you've said this also before, is you need to come out of the gate sort of knowing who your audience is. It could certainly evolve and change. But you can't come out of the gate saying we're going to target just Gen Z, that's it. Are you sure that's the right way to go?

[B]

Your audience is going to evolve. Your Gen Z, it's going to grow and they're going to be. Then comes Gen Alpha. So you need to make very strategic decisions. How are you going to keep growing with your audience but at the same time keep bringing new audiences as well.

[A]

Well and our generations even going to be relevant anymore. The fact that the boomer generation, everyone discounted them several years ago and now look at the spending in that space, the 60, 70, 80 year olds and you know, Gen X, we feel a little bit ignored. But there's a lot of spending power in Gen X Millennials. No one talks about millennials anymore but they were, you know, everybody was focused on them. So I think that might be a little bit outdated. The fact that we all have to target Gen Z.

[B]

Absolutely. So again, unless very certain products that is very child focused and certain age or mature skin. I believe, I don't believe in boxes. I think we had to do it because we didn't have other tools before. Now we can target people by interest, by other things.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Even by zip code or what they like. Even. I mean you can target if they like Madonna music.

[A]

You'll notice the 80s is super trendy and even the dress and the clothes. Clothing and the style and everything. And I mean I'm still waiting for somebody, a brand to. And maybe if you have gone after the daughter, the mother and the grandmother. I think Olay did that at one point because it's a huge opportunity. People are living longer. Women over 60, 70, 80 are really, you know, back into their skin care and how they look and feel and you know, are they changing their hair?

[B]

But guess what, you have the younger generations teaching them that and important.

[A]

Yes, great point. It's a great point because they consume in a different way than certainly a Gen Z. So do we level it out? Are you going to send a 75 year old? Are you going to target her in a Sephora? Maybe not. But could you target her at an Ulta and Target? For sure. Are you going to advertise on TikTok for a 75 year old? Not likely. So thinking about your channel, maybe you're going to.

[B]

I think it's seasonal too. You can advertise in TikTok when it's the time to give a gift for the holidays for grandma or for your mother.

[A]

Sure, sure. But grandma's not shopping on TikTok. Most likely.

[B]

No. But you could buy for the gifts for grandma.

[A]

That's true. And in a store environment they need to look at too. Is it just older women coming in? That's another one that you know, sort of I get a little disgruntled about is people saying, you know, department stores. Oh, they're so old. That's still the bulk of the business for a, an older beauty brand, somebody that's been around for a long time, the bulk of their business is still in a department store. So we need to respect that and understand that they might be changing. Certainly Saks and Neiman's combining and then Nordstrom being bought. So a lot of these things are going to change. I've heard that. I believe Lord and Taylor might be coming back. So, but they're, they're, they're still staying on the trajectory of customers are still consuming with us, our retailers now, it might be more online, it might be in the social space, but they're still extremely relevant and we'll continue to see that. Absolutely.

[B]

Absolutely. Well, Kate, thank you so much. This was such a great talk and we went all over the place, but I loved every minute you did.

[A]

I had such a blast. And as we could see, I'm very passionate about it. So don't forget, people buy things, but they pay for experiences. So I hope we have other consumers out there that love to consume. Keep doing it.

[B]

Yes. It's what keeps economy going.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And to you guys, thank you for being here today and I will see you next week with more coffee. Number five. Find everything you need at larashmoisman.com or in the episode notes right below. Don't forget to subscribe. Was so good to have you here today. See you next time. Catch you on the flip side. Ciao, ciao.