The Brand Growth Secret: Advocacy Marketing with Henry Barton

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Coffee N° 5 with Lara Schmoisman

Episode: The Brand Growth Secret: Advocacy Marketing with Henry Barton

Date: August 19, 2025
Host: Lara Schmoisman
Guest: Henry Barton, Global Head of Network, Jewel

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the evolution of marketing in the age of social media, focusing on advocacy marketing as a powerful growth engine for brands. Host Lara Schmoisman and guest Henry Barton explore the difference between influence and advocacy, the changing landscape of content creation, how commerce platforms like TikTok Shop are transforming consumer behaviors, and why authentic connections matter more than ever. The conversation is filled with real-world examples, industry observations, and actionable insights for brands looking to build loyal communities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shift from Influencers to Advocates (00:05–04:38)

• Lara’s Viewpoint: Expresses skepticism about traditional influencer marketing, emphasizing the impact of community and collaboration over transactional promotions.
• Henry’s Introduction: Outlines his role at Jewel as the Global Head of Network, working with top beauty, fashion, and lifestyle brands to mobilize communities and drive revenue.
  • “We build and scale programs that mobilize not just...influencers, but thousands of passionate customers and creators to drive not just reach and engagement, but be a real revenue driver for these brands.” — Henry Barton (01:22)
• State of Content Creation:
  • Anyone who creates content is a content creator, regardless of audience size. The difference between content creators and influencers is authenticity.
  • “You don’t need to be an influencer to have influence.” — Henry Barton (02:50)
  • There's an ongoing recalibration in how brands use influence, with a move away from inauthentic influencer marketing.

2. Mapping Brand Collaborators: Content Creators, Influencers, Ambassadors, and More (04:38–10:05)

• Defining Roles:
  • Influencers: Have large audiences, often managed by agents, and previously worked for products but now command fees.
  • Ambassadors: Usually part of loyalty programs, measured by brand spend or engagement.
  • Affiliates: Monetize their recommendations, best when they authentically love the product.
  • Blurred lines between these roles, and integration is often lacking within brands’ internal structures.
  • “I don’t think there’s an industry standard for how it’s segmented...the macroeconomic climate dictates a little bit about where the investment in this area is.” — Henry Barton (08:47)

3. The Impact and Future of Social Commerce (10:05–14:53)

• TikTok Shop as a Game Changer:
  • Both Lara and Henry agree that TikTok Shop is more than a minor evolution—it’s setting new behaviors in social commerce.
  • Henry references China’s advanced market as a preview of what’s to come in the West.
  • “Commerce doll is the now actually. But like it’s very much the future.” — Henry Barton (11:00)
• Integration Challenges:
  • Lara notes brands struggle with narrative and messaging because of siloed teams (SEO, social, etc.)
  • Henry warns that “operating in silos is arguably the most dangerous thing that brands can do these days.” (12:46)
• AI’s Impact on Commerce & Search:
  • Shift to using AI tools like ChatGPT for product discovery; younger, AI-native generations will further this trend.
  • Brands need to structure data and use correct keywords for AI-powered discovery or risk being left behind.

4. Branding, Integration, and the Rise of AI Influencers (14:53–18:10)

• Branding vs. Social:
  • The importance of interconnecting branding and social teams.
  • Cautious optimism about AI “influencers”—potential for inclusivity, but also the risk of inauthenticity and narrow representation.
• Creative Control vs. Consumer Relevance:
  • Reference to Bernard Shaw’s (attributed) quote: getting perfect direction is possible with AI, but shouldn’t lose sight of the customer.
  • Key question: “Is that what your consumer wants to see? Is that going to be the thing that incentivizes purchase?” — Henry Barton (16:15)
• Business Rationale for AI:
  • Investment in AI must be reasoned, not just for novelty or speed, and it must serve business goals and consumer needs.

5. Customer-Centricity & Social Proof (19:03–22:53)

• Understanding the Customer:
  • Many brands fail to research and connect with their actual consumers; relying on static brand books is insufficient.
  • “Your next best customer is your current best customer’s best friend.” — Henry Barton (20:00)
• Leveraging Social Proof:
  • Importance of reviews, ratings, and UGC (User Generated Content) as sources of insight and future product ideas.
  • “If you read it in between lines, you can also learn what’s the next product that they’re looking for.” — Lara Schmoisman (21:32)
  • Comments and tagged content are valuable sources for sentiment and trending topics.

6. The Future of Advocacy, Influence & Community (22:53–26:11)

• Advocacy is the New Influence:
  • “We’re seeing a move from influencers with reach to advocates with resonance.” — Henry Barton (22:53)
  • Example: Amika Beauty’s CEO positions actual stylists, not traditional influencers, as their best promoters.
  • Rise of micro-creators and trusted niche experts, with algorithms rewarding strong content over large audiences.
• Building Owned Communities:
  • Brands need to create spaces they control (e.g., ambassador programs, in-store experiences) to foster authentic engagement.
  • Hybrid physical-digital experiences (“omnichannel”) are key for building customer touchpoints.
  • “With some products, the more touch points that you can have cross medium and multi medium...” — Henry Barton (25:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Content Creation:
  • “Anyone who is bold enough and brave enough to be putting content out there...is a content creator.” — Henry Barton (02:50)
• On Brand Structure:
  • “Operating in silos is arguably the most dangerous thing that brands can do these days, right?” — Henry Barton (12:46)
• On AI and Authenticity:
  • “The director is not the one that is buying the products. You need to be thinking about the humans that are actually buying your product.” — Henry Barton (16:15)
• On Customer Advocacy:
  • “Your next best customer is your current best customer’s best friend.” — Henry Barton (20:00)
• On Social Proof:
  • “It’s not only that the other consumers are going to read...You can learn a lot.” — Lara Schmoisman (21:23)
• On the Shift from Influence to Advocacy:
  • “Advocacy is the new influence.” — Henry Barton (22:53)
  • “We’re seeing a move from influencers with reach to advocates with resonance.” — Henry Barton (23:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:05 – 01:22 | The fundamental problem with influencer marketing
• 01:22 – 02:45 | Defining content creators vs. influencers
• 04:38 – 05:51 | Mapping brand partners: creators, influencers, ambassadors, affiliates
• 10:05 – 11:28 | The TikTok Shop paradigm shift
• 12:12 – 13:35 | Pitfalls of siloed marketing & the importance of integration
• 14:53 – 16:15 | How AI and branding must serve the consumer, not creative control
• 19:03 – 21:03 | The imperative of customer research and advocacy
• 21:22 – 22:53 | Leveraging social proof for innovation and genuine feedback
• 22:53 – 26:11 | The future: advocacy-driven marketing and owned communities

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Final Fun Moment:

• How Henry Drinks His Coffee:
  • “Depends what time of the day. ...usually I am just a flat white, no sugar cup.” — Henry Barton (26:28)

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Conclusion

This episode makes a compelling case that the brands most likely to thrive are those who shift from transactional influencer campaigns to genuine advocacy marketing, driven by community, authenticity, and customer-centric strategies. The future belongs to brands that integrate teams, leverage AI thoughtfully, value social proof, and build owned communities—always with an ear to what their customers truly want.

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Transcript

[Henry Baton]

Foreign.

[Lara Schmoisman]

This is Coffee Number Five. I'm your host, Lara Schmoisman. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Coffee Number Five. Is your coffee ready? My niece. So I've been having this conversation for a long, long time and you guys know me, I'm unpopular opinion. I'm not a big fan of influencers who are selling, selling, selling, but I've been a big fan of communities. I big fans of creating collaborations and really people that you love your brand and that you want to collaborate with the brand, there might be payment involved or not. Doesn't matter to me. But what. I don't care anymore. And I think many of the audience out there, they can read through the lines of someone who is sponsored content, sponsored content, sponsored content, sponsor content. And that's a tough one. So I wanted to bring you an expert, as always, in this, in this space. So, Henry Baton, thank you so much for being here today.

[Henry Baton]

Thank you for having me.

[Lara Schmoisman]

So, I mean, we had this conversation several times as the industry. I mean, today you're at. Well, and you have a very fancy title that I don't remember now.

[Henry Baton]

I find it hard to remember sometimes as well, in fairness. So, yeah, as I say, I'm. I'm at Jewel. I'm the global head of network and yeah. Tasked with working with some of the most exciting beauty, fashion, lifestyle brands to. Yeah, as you said, like, help those brands turn their communities of loyal and loving fans and advocates and turn them into their most powerful growth engine, essentially. So we build and scale programs that mobilize not just, you know, tens or hundreds of influencers, but thousands of passionate customers and creators to drive not just reach and engagement, but be a real revenue driver for these brands as well. So building programs like Charlotte Tilbury's Magic Beauty Stars and a variety of others to really allow brands to. Yeah. Engage through challenges and activations that transcend. Yeah. Inauthentic influencer posts and relationships.

[Lara Schmoisman]

I love that you said that. But let's talk a little bit about the state of the industry because this, everything started a little while ago, a few years ago with social media and a lot of people became see it as a business opportunity, which is. I think it's great. It's great to be a scraper. It's great to have. But everyone now is a content creator. So what is a content creator in your eyes?

[Henry Baton]

Anyone who creates content is my. Is my answer. I'm of the belief that you don't need to be an influencer to have influence. Anyone who's creating content, regardless of how many followers you, you have. They're creating content that resonates with. Whether it's 100, whether it's 200, whether it's a thousand, whether it's 10,000, you're creating content that resonates. So my definition of a content creator is anyone who is bold enough and brave enough to be putting content out there in the. On the big world wide web for.

[Lara Schmoisman]

Like we're doing right now.

[Henry Baton]

Like we're doing right now. Like we are content creators. Yes. But I think the key, the key thing about what differentiates a content creator from, say, an influencer is it's their true authentic self. It's their. It's creating content that is resonant of their truest beliefs, their hobbies, their loves, their, you know, what they spend their time, money and energy into. That's how content is created in its truest form. And I think as. As far as your top question that you asked, and just like the state of, state of the industry, I think we are seeing sort of like a bit of a recalibration of influence. You know, fashion, in my world at least fashion, beauty and lifestyle brands that thrive in the coming years, I think will be the ones that treat advocacy not as sort of like a campaign tactic, but as like very, very heartbeat of their marketing. We see. I won't name names, but if you just need to log into LinkedIn to see some of the backlash of some. A brand that has created a campaign that might not have resonated as well as they hoped it would, let's put it that way. And I am a true believer in the fact that that has come about as a result of not truly understanding your customer, not truly speaking to your customer, and responding to the content that they want to see built into the program.

[Lara Schmoisman]

So I think let's break out the industry for a second because I want the audience out there to understand what we talk about content creators, we talk about influencers a little. But there is another things like brand ambassadors. There is like the face of the brand or. So where do you divide it? How do you divide these collaborators with brands?

[Henry Baton]

I think, sorry to revisit that question. Like how, how do you split between who's a content creator, who's an influencer, or.

[Lara Schmoisman]

Yes, who's a content creator, who's an influencer, who is a brand ambassador and who is the face of the brand? I mean, there are different or there is any other role that you imagine that there is in this space right now.

[Henry Baton]

Yeah, of course, it's a great question. I think what, what we see is there, we've got this three part divide to, to how brand viewer at the moment you've got your influencers. So your hundreds upon thousands of followers of fans and followers on social regularly comes with a blue tick, regularly comes with a manager or you know, an agent that will manage a lot of their, a lot of their work.

[Lara Schmoisman]

So and it comes with a price tag.

[Henry Baton]

And it comes with a price tag. So there was like if you look back to the early stages of influencer, like a lot of them would have been happy to do stuff in return for product, in return for experience, in return for you know, maybe an elevated experience when it comes to PR, packaging, etc. I think then that's that shifted. We can come back onto that. I think the other section is ambassador and loyalty programs. So loyalty is something that's traditionally measured on spend. You know, how many dollars you spend on a particular brand equates to rewards, it equates to, you know, maybe discounts, etc.

[Lara Schmoisman]

So also affiliates, pardon me, also known as affiliates affiliates.

[Henry Baton]

But like I think where, where the line slightly blurs on creator and affiliate side of things is actually they work very, very well in tandem. So what you have is you've got, you've got affiliates who are obviously, you know, get affiliate revenue from anything that shop through their links. So what we, what we see is that the conversion of that is done far greater when combined with someone who already has that organic love of the brand and product because it's, it's more believable, there's more trust, there's more credibility in the way that they speak about those products. So that conversion from an affiliate standpoint is made infinitely more more successful and more believable by them already having that existing love. I think if someone's chasing the paycheck, they can, that, that's sort of quite transparent and quite, quite see through when it comes to, when it comes to posting, posting content out in the ether. And I know if I was to talk, if I was to change the way that I spoke or if I was changed that my hobbies on, on social media, I know I'd be called out by my friends, the thousand people that follow me on Instagram for example, would know that I'm changing to fulfill the brief of someone who might be wanting to access my micro community. So yeah, affiliate is still powerful regardless of how, how big you are in terms of follow accounts. And I think it's something that, that can be a real powerful tool when built at scale because affiliate if you flooding a. Not to bring it back around to dual too much during this conversation, but when you take, you know, a program built by the likes of ourselves or some of the others in the space, you know, these are built for, this is built for scale. It's built for tens of thousands of people. It's not built for, you know, tens managed in an Excel spreadsheet. So yeah, I think it's, it's interesting how I, I would probably caveat with this with saying that I don't think there's an industry standard for how it's segmented and I also don't think there's necessarily a dedicated team because it like influencer can fall obviously under influencer teams, but it can fall sometimes under pr. It can work its way into brand marketing, it can work its way into affiliate, it can work its way in so many different ways. So where. And obviously with content creators, with ambassadors, it can do the same. So we're seeing sort of like the, the, the shift in where it sits. And I think the last thing I'll say on this part of the question is the macroeconomic climate dictates a little bit about where this, what, what the investment in this area is and where the interest comes from an internal perspective. So when you think when times are good, when money's cheap, when business is flowing like that, we're very happy to pump things in. That might be more blue sky thinking, more awareness, more sort of, you know, top of funnel activity. But when we find ourselves in what we currently find ourselves, which is flirting with a recession and falling on a little tougher times financially and economically, businesses shift that lens to be more bottom of funnel. How are we driving revenue? How are we driving sales? So that changes that picture and how brands and companies approach the management and the investment in said, in said parts of the, in the marketing matrix. So yeah, it's, it's a fascinating part of the world that I think we're seeing constant changes and constant.

[Lara Schmoisman]

We are. And then it came TikTok Shop and TikTok Shop and we never, we still don't know what is going to happen to TikTok Shop in the US So we see other companies that they are maybe having plan B, everyone having a plan B. And, and, but TikTok Shop changed the game changer a little.

[Henry Baton]

It did. I challenge you on a little. I think it changed it a lot.

[Lara Schmoisman]

And you know, I think TikTok changed a lot, make it change a lot.

[Henry Baton]

I think Shop is, it's still in its infancy, right. Like it's, it's still, it's still in its infancy. It's evidently a powerful tool. I mean you just need to look over to like China for example is a slightly more developed market in terms of social commerce as to like the true power of what. I think there's a mentality shift for how we interact with products that maybe the west hasn't quite got its head around quite yet. But it's the future Commerce doll is the now actually. But like it's very much the future and I think we'll be seeing, we'll be seeing iterations of this come up and more, more comfort in the way that we shop across those process. I think, you know, there's, there's a lot of narrative out there about how TikTok shop is for a lower price point. It's for, it's for you know, things that are bundled.

[Lara Schmoisman]

I have to tell you, I love that you just speak in what I'm well to ask you.

[Henry Baton]

Sorry. Okay, I won't.

[Lara Schmoisman]

But I love it.

[Henry Baton]

Yeah. Like I think that's. That's changing and trust in the platform is obviously something that it's a sign.

[Lara Schmoisman]

That people say that Amazon is only for lower price points.

[Henry Baton]

Yeah. And they're doing quite well I hear. So yeah, it's, it's one of those, it's, it's a mindset shift in our, in our shopping habits and I think as, as we become more comfortable with it, it'll only increase in the amount of amount we spend there, but also the amount we. The amount of variety and differing price points that we see.

[Lara Schmoisman]

I truly believe that social commerce is the future agrees of the industry. However, I do believe also that we most brands are not doing a great job putting it everywhere because everything is integrated right now and social media became search engine too. So like you were saying that they were changing narratives. I see a lot of brands out there have different narratives because they have one team doing SEO, another team doing social media and they are just ranking for the wrong. They have a conflict, internal conflict linked.

[Henry Baton]

I will say 100% like. And operating in silos is arguably the most dangerous thing that brands can do these days. Right. Because there's not that sort of like combined goal and combined focus. I think it's made that argument's made even more interesting now with you know, the, the updates from Instagram and how, you know, we're going to have to start thinking about how we caption our social posts because that directly impacts searchability and discoverability on search engines.

[Lara Schmoisman]

Absolutely. And now we have also this week the announcement from Shopify and ChatGPT that there's gonna be a transaction less in ChatGPT. Like go find this and buy it. And if you don't put the right keywords and you don't structure your data for, for AI, you're lost in the game.

[Henry Baton]

Exactly. And like I can't remember the exact start and I'm gonna kick myself. But there is the percentage that the modern shopper and modern consumer is actually doing product search on ChatGPT over at Google. And obviously this is becoming more prevalent with younger AI native generations who, you know, are mentally programmed to go there as their first research.

[Lara Schmoisman]

So even, even my father talks all the time.

[Henry Baton]

Big up. I love that. Good on him. That's it.

[Lara Schmoisman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Henry Baton]

It's, it's, it's definitely something that all, all brands are going to have to have to really lean into and put a bit more effort into truly understanding difference. I watched a great talk. I'm actually going to quickly look at, I'm going to name drop him because he was so.

[Lara Schmoisman]

I, I really. Something that I've been seeing also in brands lately is that there been in the last few years it was a very strong separation from branding both and social. How do you see. To me that's a no, no. Everything needs to be interconnected. But how do you see the future? What's going to happen with all the integration of AI also now can be replacing influencers. You have AI people.

[Henry Baton]

I'm not sure how I feel about AI influencers just yet. They're bloody convincing. Let's put it out there. And like, I think there's wider like image and how we want models to be viewed and how we want. Like there's certain things, there's certain negative impacts of it in term in the fashion and beauty world specifically, maybe that shows a type of body, a type of person, a type of figure, a type of face that we deem to be. You know, I think we can lose a little bit of inclusivity when we come to it. So I think it's about what is what I'm seeing in these early stages. Right. Like, I would love to see a more inclusive approach to how we're using AI models. But to answer the original question, I think yes, they need to work together. Like they really need to work together. It's never been more important for everyone to get.

[Lara Schmoisman]

I believe that it was Bernard show who said that if you get me actors who use exactly the words that I give them, do what I Tell them to do and use intonation and the process and everything that I tell them, I guarantee your success.

[Henry Baton]

Ben Shaw said that?

[Lara Schmoisman]

Yeah.

[Henry Baton]

Okay. You're full of quotes. I love that.

[Lara Schmoisman]

And I, and I think that that's what the, is bringing to the table. That the director can get exactly what they wanted.

[Henry Baton]

Yes, but you shouldn't. The director is not the one that is buying the products. You need to be thinking about the humans that are actually buying your product. Like bringing this back to that. Like is that what your consumer wants to see? Is that going to be the thing that incentivizes purchase? Is that use of AI, the best use of AI in building a, you know, 100 year brand and something that is going to transcend the trends. Like as if, if it's, if there's a long term strategy to the use and there is a direct desire from your consumer. I think that's what we need to, need to remember. It's. We've got to, we've got to listen to what our customer wants and react accordingly. So I think as long as there is that company wide directive and mission and true understanding North Star, if you like that phrase, I find it okay. Business jargony. But yeah, as long as there is that shared common goal from the business that is how do we give the customer and unknown customer what they want, then I see no reason as to why you shouldn't test, iterate and respond accordingly to all of it. But it has to. The departments have to work together in order to make that the most comprehensive and most effective manner.

[Lara Schmoisman]

There are two points there. First of all, that creating this perfect AI and everything like the director wanted doesn't come for free. No, it's going to be a lot of elements, a lot of programs, a lot of work hours. So at some point also you need to be a business decision. There is a reason to use AI instead of a person. There has to be a reason behind it.

[Henry Baton]

Yeah, of course. Like, and it's, it should be the same with every business decision. Right. Like you do the research, you get the data, you prove the concept and, and you can then, then action. I think where, where AI is, is helpful is enabling speed and enabling, you know, the operational elements of getting from research to delivery even quicker. But I mean, yeah, I need to do more with AI myself. So I don't feel like I'm the best person. I'm a print media kind of guy. I'm a out of home billboard kind of guy. I am a social guy in terms of the belief in that in its true authentic fashion, can be an absolute game changer and differentiator. I need to do more research into.

[Lara Schmoisman]

How I love what you mentioned before about the brands forgetting many times about who is their consumer. And I feel like a lot of brands come with a pretty brand book and they forget to do their research and getting to know that consumer and what they make them dig like it's.

[Henry Baton]

They're the people who are buying our products. They're the people who are, you know, telling their friends about those products. I think the better, the more elevated experience is the, is the true winner of today's world. And so if another, another little catchphrase I'll throw out there is I'm, I'm a big believer of your next best customer is your current best customer's best friend. And so if we're looking at our current best customers, what are they asking for? What are they responding to the most? What are they, you know, clamoring for? And in terms of maybe it's a campaign, maybe it's product development, maybe it's, you know, partnership. Like, where else are they hanging out that you and do do the digging on that? Because those, those are the ones that will give you the most authentic and true feedback because they are the ones already invested in your business. So they can provide the direction that. Or I say direction. They could provide guidance on what might be a, a rational next step to take in order to either further push them down that advocacy funnel and get them doing more for you, or spreading the word and helping you on that customer acquisition journey or just providing that feedback that is, you know, one of our company values at Jewel is feedback is a gift. And I think it's something that a lot of brands forget that, you know, when, when crowdsourcing that feedback from your most, most loving and loyal fans. These are the ones who want to see you succeed. So that feedback is going to be with your best interest at heart.

[Lara Schmoisman]

And I think this wonderful world of the Internet gave us also another opportunity which is a social proof. The social proof, yes. Ratings, reviews from people are so important and you have to listen what people say.

[Henry Baton]

Yeah.

[Lara Schmoisman]

Because it's not only that the other consumers are going to read to the Ed. You can learn a lot. And if you read it in between lines, you can also learn what's the next product that they're looking for.

[Henry Baton]

Yeah. 100. And it's not even, it's not even just in the reviews. Right. Like, it's in the content that they're creating that lives in Your tagged posts section of your brand, Instagram, it's in. I mean, the comments section is obviously getting a lot of, it's getting a lot of love recently because that's where, that's where the action happens. You know, you just see all brands like really digging into comments on tick and on, on Instagram and other platforms and, you know, actually listening to that, responding to it, engaging with it is a surefire way of not only, not only understanding what sentiment is towards your business, but sentiment to culture, sentiment to, you know, their everyday lives. And I think the more you can respond, listen to that and respond to that, you can embed yourself in culture, not chase every trend that's going on. You know, we saw the, you know, astronomer CEO and all the brands like jumping on that, that Coldplay scandal. But like, if the trend makes sense, if the cultural moment makes sense and is aligned with your, with your brand, then you bet your bottom dollar that you'll find it in your comments section from those people who are engaging with your post.

[Lara Schmoisman]

Absolutely. And so where do you think that the industry is going? What's next for the collaborations, ambassadors, influencers, creators world?

[Henry Baton]

Yeah, I'm going to start with a very biased one, which is that advocacy is the new influence. I think we're seeing a move from influencers with reach to advocates with resonance is what I'd say. So the average consumer doesn't want to hear from a person with a million followers that are plugging multiple products week in, week out. And actually what they're looking for is that the people that they trust, actually the Amica Beauty CEO Chelsea Riggs recently came out in the Business of Beauty article and said that stylists are the new influences for Amica. You know, people who are every day talking about hair every day, you know, dealing with different products. And the stylists that are recommending your products are the ones that understand not only from a sort of outcome perspective of what those products are doing, but from an integrity perspective of the ingredients, from, you know, desired outcome of, of absolutely every element and consumer feedback to consumer feedback. But yeah, from people who might don't traditionally fit the mold of influencer, but have trust and credibility in market. And I think this is made increasingly important with the meritocratic nature of algorithms these days. Right. Like it's no longer, I think follow account is. It's not irrelevant. I would, I wouldn't go as far as saying irrelevant, but with the meritocratic nature of the algorithms. On social. These days, good content is rewarded not just, not just well followed individuals and accounts. So more so than ever we're, we're seeing that rise of true like people that are creating trustworthy education led content, micro creators that are passionate and yeah tight knit peer groups that are providing real credibility and ultimately real ROI for brands these days. So that's my slightly biased one. I think what we'll also see is a rise of like owned communities. So brands are realizing that you know, rented attention is costly and unstable. So I think what we'll see is like a big focus on building owned community spaces. Whether that's ambassador programs, whether that in real life opportunities to gather. You know we're seeing the rising trend of cafes built into stores and you know coach do an incredible job building these community spaces within new retail facilities and their stores and their brand like customers to in like engage with.

[Lara Schmoisman]

This is what I, I've been seeing a lot of experiences that people can get to touch. It's all about experience.

[Henry Baton]

Yeah, absolutely. Combining the combination of digital and the in real life world is, is important to this owned community piece because it's, it's with, with some products right like your, your brands will map out how many touch points are needed to incentivize purchase. Like the more touch points that you can have cross cross medium and multi medium will just.

[Lara Schmoisman]

Omnichannel.

[Henry Baton]

Pardon me? Omnichannel. There we go. That's the word. End of my day. As I said, I don't have a coffee. I've got water. So maybe I should, maybe should name this.

[Lara Schmoisman]

That brings me for my next question and it's the last question of today. How do you drink your coffee?

[Henry Baton]

Depends what time of the day. I rather embarrassingly started my day with a vanilla latte this morning. So yeah, don't judge me on that one. But usually I am just a flat white, no sugar cup.

[Lara Schmoisman]

Very good. Well, thank you so much for being here with us today and to you guys. I will see you next week with more coffee number five. Find everything you need at larashmoistman.com or in the episode notes right below. Don't forget to subscribe. Was so good to have you here today. See you next time. Catch you on the flip side. Ciao, ciao.