B (3:52)

Well, I think it's, at the moment it's probably one of the most relevant channels for luxury brands. In particular luxury skin care, luxury wellness and well being brands. And the reason for that, you know, over the last 10 years or more, the retail space in particular has been changing. That's, that's nothing new. A lot of people are aware of that. The old department store models were, were breaking the way people consumed luxury goods and skin care in particular started to change. And then of course, as with many industries, the pandemic accelerated that change. So what we were seeing in hospitality even 10 years ago was a real desire in hospitality for brands that were very different, that were really hitting home with a very discerning traveler, a discerning guest, brands that would deliver results in wellness spaces and brands also that would deliver complete experiential models in wellness spaces. So really now the key for many brands within this sector, skin care, wellness, longevity, is to really understand how they can tap into the hospitality guest because it's a huge opportunity as a channel and offers a very serious and alternative and diversification to traditional models.

A (5:35)

I want to divide this model in two parts because there are two parts of the player here. Remember when we used to go to hotels and they would give us these little bottles that change. Now you go to even luxury hotels and you get the big pump. So I see these as the two channels because also these boutiques, hotels, they have a retail opportunity.

B (5:58)

Many times they do, yeah, absolutely. And that because either from treatment, you know, as we know, with that model of wellness and spa treatments, you have that retail opportunity in properties then to be able to obviously extend routine after treatment and then you have, yes, like you said, almost like the amenity piece in the room can also play into retail opportunities.

A (6:28)

I remember I had this discussion with my husband a few days ago actually, because I am the traveler that I need my shampoo and conditioner. And he was like, you're going to a resort. So in a resort, of course they're going to give you good quality products. And I know it's true, but I also loyal to my brands, but I'm also thinking like someone who tried those products, they can fall in love with it. So there is a branding aspect there.

B (6:59)

Absolutely. I think with amenity in hospitality and using, you know, all the brands that make that play successfully into, you know, in room, it's, it's a really, it's a really huge brand awareness and brand equity piece because as you just said, that guest is going to use that, that shampoo conditioner hand wash for three, five, seven more days nights. And so there is a, a continual usage of that product and, and then raises awareness for that brand and then potential obviously purchasing opportunities in, in other channels for that brand. So you get that real cross fertilization for, for brand development.

A (7:45)

So they, the question here is how do you get into those channels?

B (7:51)

Well, I think, you know, the hospitality channels are. It's no doubt that it's not something that happens overnight. You know, the hospitality channels need to feel like brands that are working with them are treating them like they are treating their guests. So if you want to be working with, you know, the likes of Ritz Carlton and Mandarin Oriental and Four Seasons and others and Rosalie would, etc. You, you almost have to nurture those relationships. And it takes many years to nurture those relationships. It's not something that just happens overnight, but you've got to start somewhere. Of course. But it's about relationship building. It's about networking. You know, my dad always taught me. He was, he was a very, he was, he was a great guy like that. He had learned many business lessons from him. And one of the busy big biggest lessons I ever learned from him was, you know, network, network, network, always try and meet new interesting people. Like, that's why I was so delighted that we connected at intercourse. Because when you meet new interesting people and you surround yourself with new interesting people, it offers both of you the chance to grow and Absolutely.

A (9:06)

If you see it that way, absolutely. I mean, we recently had another podcast about the importance of networking and how you build business from those real relationships. So it's important that you become in whatever industry you are, people see you and it's all who you connect with and you make that circle of connections not to be absolutely.

B (9:35)

It's just about taking those opportunities and then pushing yourself forward into opportunities as well and thinking about right what, you know, where can I. What, what industry events or what activations or what is going on around the world in my industry that will allow me to continue to grow because it's also about a learning and a development opportunity. Just because you have a strong network already doesn't mean that it can't be further enhanced and that you can't find other people are going to be contributing to your growth. But that's a key thing for me. You've got to stay around people that contribute to your growth. Don't stay around people that don't.

A (10:12)

Exactly. You need to be with those people that push you forward. But let me ask you a question because we just been talking about, about being in room. What, what is it about these shops, exclusive shops in hotels and other opportunities that they are, they are there for brands and people don't know about it because I know that you know about them.

B (10:36)

You mean like the, the boutiques, right? In the.

A (10:39)

Yeah. Being in boutiques or many other hidden opportunities that are how they are.

B (10:44)

Well, there are. And again if you. That's. That's one way to look at it. If you're looking at luxury hotels, a lot of luxury hotels now if you just take into account, for example, you go to Dubai now, right? Okay, challenge is a bit of a challenge at the moment. But Dubai, if you look at how hotels position themselves, some of the luxury hotels like you know, Royal Atlantis and Mandarin Oriental and others they have actually like luxury stores inside them with collaborations with say big e commerce players like Unas. That was a very innovative thing to do because if you, you could, you're almost turning though that hotel space. You know, you've, you've got the guest there in a hotel like that, you know, you've got the guest that is. Is capable of spending on luxury. So give them a chance to then to 360 retail within the property and you're almost creating a luxury boutique shopping mall. Almost. That's one opportunity. And then like you rightfully said, our brands that are working with hospitality partnerships thinking about in room activation correctly, you know, turn down and minibar opportunities are huge and they can create volume based revenue.

A (11:58)

I love what Isha said about finding exposure opportunities and I think there is a lot of confusion fusion about this exposure and there are so many events out there and so how do you choose where is the right place to go for your brand or to show is it better to do something more Intimate. Is it better to try to be in a big conference and hoping that a buyer will give you attention and follow in love with you?

B (12:27)

You know that that's an excellent question actually. How do you choose the right platforms to showcase your brand in terms of trade activation? And I'll start by saying that trade partnership activation with eventing and attending conferences is absolutely crucial if you want your brand to grow, particularly in the experiential and hospitality sector. If you are not on that circuit, I promise you long term you'll not succeed. It's really crucial if that's somewhere where you know somebody wants their brand to succeed. So then you've got to narrow it down because of course nobody, even huge companies have the time, resource or even the budgets to be attending every single event that's going.

A (13:16)

And not every event is a good fit for your brand either.

B (13:19)

Right. And not every event is the right fit. So think about your brand. Who are you speaking to? Who's your audience, who's the consumer? And then once you've kind of really profiled your B2B or your partner avatar, do that with your consumer as well and then look at which events are going to give you the best platform to showcase your brand.

A (13:42)

And I think there is another thing that we need to have in consideration here is where you are your brand, where stage your brand is in. Because in there some events that they're fantastic events but a brand that there is in certain stage won't be successful.

B (14:03)

No, exactly. Look, if you're a startup, you're not going to have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to, you know, to attend, you know, more considered events. If you're a startup, really it probably is more about networking. It's about trying to find local activations, local workshops, research what you, you know, in, in different areas and you're going to have a focus because you're going to need to focus as a startup as to where you invest your time. As your brand gets bigger, you want to be seen on some of the more major, in some of the more major spaces, of course you do. You want to be attending as a delegate, that's also a great learning opportunity. Or you want to be showcasing your brand because if you attend those industry events that have a lot of recognition and respect, that means with it your brand gets that respect as well. And then over time that recognition of being on that event, on that right event scene.

A (15:07)

But there are other things that we need to have in consideration here as well. I recently came to awareness that there is a whole circuit of gifting. And there is another other circuit of more niche. Like for example if you're a mommy brand there are a lot of mommy conventions. If you're you brought work for pregnancy you can have this additional patterns that maybe they're more niche and more affordable and you can stand out because if you're a new skincare line and you're there with all the skincare lines, it's going to be really hard to be disrupted and to create awareness.

B (15:49)

Exactly. Look, and I think that comes back to what you and I have discussed before is about whatever you're creating as a brand or about your brand has to have a purpose and has to have something different that it's obviously offering. And then really then it's about focus as to where you can take what your brand offers that's different and then plug it into those various different trade event partnerships that are possible. Doing something on a bit more of a larger scale to speak to a larger audience and then maybe balancing it with one or two more intimate events where you're able to speak to core industry mover and shakers and decision makers directly on a more intimate basis.

A (16:33)

But talking about partnerships, when you're starting a brand or even you have a middle sized brand brand you need to be or even a well known brand you need to be aware that there are a lot of things that you're going to have to do. Collaborations, partnership, give a lot of product away more in the US with Tik Tok shop with user generated content is something you really need to have in your budget.

B (16:58)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's a, it's a, it's a significant part of, of your budget as you brand build because you're trying to get as you said, whether it's E commerce so that you're. You have to have a gifting budget for Kols and influencers which are then going to drive awareness back to your brand. Whether it's then trying to get the brand listed with B2B partners then. Yeah, and you're gonna have to. There's a certain budget for that for prospecting, gifting to B2B partners and, and for these and for these shows and events. So I, you're right. It's. It's a, it's a budget that has to be considered for brand building.

A (17:37)

Yeah, I realized that I mean once I had a client this is crazy story but real that she they had products to send and they consider that but they didn't consider the shipping cost of sending to the Content creators. So this a lot of money. Can we ask them to pay for the product? And I was.

B (17:57)

No, not really.

A (18:02)

Well, let me, I want to hear your take. Content creators versus celebrities versus.

B (18:13)

Oh, I like this one.

A (18:14)

I, I know you do. Versus affiliate versus viral people.

B (18:25)

Well, look, everybody wants a viral moment. Everyone's looking for a TikTok viral moment or an Instagram viral moment. I mean, look fair. And that's not to say that, you know, that you shouldn't have some sort of mechanisms in place that are going to pursue that. Nothing wrong with affiliate programs at all. I think it diversifies your, diversifies your reach. I love affiliate programs because you really bring more people into the brand and

A (18:51)

you're able to connect and you create

B (18:53)

community and you create a community. And that is what brand building is all about, creating a community as well. My. So my big. And I'm going to, you know, people will disagree with me, but my big pet peeve is celeb is chasing celebrity obsession. For chasing celebrity obsession sake. Are you doing it as a brand because it's a vanity piece and you want a celebrity to be using, wearing your brand. And I'm not denying that probably is, you know, feels good and feels like an achievement. But for me, authentic content creators and stronger micro KOLs and micro influencers. We know it's been proven they move the needle far more than an A lister because they have much more of an engaged community and because it's more authentic. So, you know, we've got some amazing KOL influences here in the uk for example, in skincare and beauty. I can tell you that these people who have, say, I don't know, few hundred thousand followers or even micro influencers, tens of thousands of followers move the needle far more than, say, I don't know, an A list pop star or actress that, you know who everybody's thinking, oh yeah, but they're just getting, but

A (20:15)

there is something more important here is that the audience got smarter and they can see that a lot of this is part pay partnership in, even in events that people are getting paid to be, they are content creators getting paid to be there. It's just, it feels sterile. It doesn't feel authentic. And I think at this time we are looking for authenticity.

B (20:40)

We are, and I think that's probably why. And I've been to these type of events so I know exactly the type of ones that you're, that you're referencing. And they all look good, they look great for Instagram, they look good, they look great for a brand.

A (20:52)

I know, but when you're in the event is they are not that great.

B (20:59)

I think then it's. But how much do they, how much do they drive connection to the brand and how authentic is it? I think the age of the influencer is having to change and adapt because you know, we went through a phase where you know, how many influencers are there? So many influencers. Oh, we're doing some more brand gifting and I've worked for multiple brands by the way over the years where you would look at lists of you know, how much, how much and you. When you add up the value of like how much stock you're sending out to influencers. Right. Or people that somehow meant to be relevant and then you look at the. It's very difficult to measure the ROI for one. And then frankly, who isn't, who wasn't an influencer at one point. So I really think you've got to look at zero in on people that are really resonating with their audiences and that are a lot more authentic.

A (21:50)

And I think that there is a big part that a lot of brands are missing. And now with the evolution of AI is more important than ever is thinking about who your consumer is and what is relatable to your consumer. Because your consumer also change and they might discover you in TikTok but then validate you on ChatGPT and go and buy in Amazon.

B (22:15)

Absolutely. I mean you need to. What you've just said is so true that you also need to go where your consumer is. Because sometimes I think brands have an idea of where they want their brand to sit or how they want it to sit. But actually where is your consumer? Where are they shopping?

A (22:34)

Yeah, exactly. But also you need to understand that people validate now content. That's why for example Amazon are so important their reviews. And I think the ecosystem changed so much that of course candy brand coexist in socks or. Well, socks is not there anymore but in a luxury store or an Amazon and absolutely can because your shopper are gonna still shop on Amazon and they want their prime delivery.

B (23:07)

Of course they are. And that's what, that's what brands are very much waking up to the reality of in particularly the States because you just touched on the, you know, the obviously the unfortunate situation with the SATS group over the last couple of years. That's quite sad. But again it shows, it shows the change in behavior of the consumer more than anything and that the consumer now is not willing to carry on purchasing in environments that don't feel engaging and experiential and they want convenience. So the rise of beauty on Amazon in the US is, is considerable and will now become one of the, if not the, but one of the major channels that brands will have to think

A (23:54)

about for the U.S. so Tom, you work with so many brands and if you want, you can drop a few names here and there. But I want to ask you a question because there is some, there are some preconceptions for brands. For example, brands in luxury or prestige, they should never have sales or like we just said, a brand should never be in Amazon. I think that those roles have changed a lot. What are, what are those roles that you think that they change and that now you need to be part of whatever the industry is doing?

B (24:30)

Yeah, I think, look, sometimes you can't move against the tsunami right now, look, whilst I'm. If you're talking about a more premium or luxury position brand, I would say I'm still in that camp of not wanting to heavily discount a brand necessarily regularly. But all brands, for example, even luxury brands, even very highly positioned brands, have had to say, get on board with the Black Friday phenomenon.

A (24:58)

Absolutely, yeah.

B (24:59)

What you're going to do, you're just going to say, well, you know, no, we're going to sit this one out and be really, you know, really true to our morals here about not discounting. Whilst all of the competitors make, you know, hundreds of thousands or, you know, millions of dollars over what now has become a whole discounting week. It's not even a day anymore.

A (25:15)

It's a week now. It's even two weeks sometimes two weeks.

B (25:20)

Now half of November is on Black Friday. So when I was in retail on the shop floor many moons ago, I used to love December because the December was, will be packed full of people all getting their, their Christmas presents, for example. But now December, the first two weeks of December are dead because everyone's done it on, you know, the Black Friday weeks. But of course, brands have had to move and adapt their behaviors. I mean, so I think that the old rules are kind of being tossed out a little bit. There is a lot more. But if you can do value add, that sometimes is a lot better for a luxury position brand. So if you can add value by,

A (25:55)

you know, be creative, you can be doing bundles, you can do other things.

B (26:01)

Do a bundle, do a set, do it, do it. Do a savers set almost where somebody's getting 30% or 25% of product, you know, free in the set. So at least you're extending, maybe you're extending someone's regime or you're extending someone's usage of something different or are you

A (26:18)

exposing them to a new product that they haven't tried?

B (26:21)

Yeah, exactly. And I think doing things like that for the more premium or luxury brands is a nice way of, a nice way of rewarding the customer with something extra without necessarily having to cheapen the brand by, you know, slashing.

A (26:36)

Absolutely. So let me ask you another question that I found very interesting in the ecosystem lately. I feel first there is a revival of PR for this reason and it's a very trending thing to do. Collaborations, two things that have nothing to do with each other but somehow they make it work. And it's like Candies and skincare.

B (27:01)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, why not? Because it makes it more interesting. I think collabs are very much going to be here to stay. I remember, you know, one of the brands that I worked with recently, I used to work with like six years, you know, there was a really interesting collaboration with like a lifestyle and fitness brand and it really worked for both brands because it played into the luxury lifestyle element that both brands had and it also made it more fun for the consumer and it became like a super relevant brand partnership. So collaborations are always now going to be a way that, to drive more brand interest and it stops brands and companies doing the same old things in terms of their, you know, their, their PR cycle.

A (27:56)

So what do you think that right now is starting to be trending but it's going to explode? What is next in the industry

B (28:05)

within you think like within skin care and wellness.

A (28:10)

Skincare, Wellness like we just mentioned within that it was influencers. Now we see that there are collaborations. What's next? What companies should be focusing on?

B (28:21)

Well, look, I don't think we can, I really don't think we can ignore AI. You know, that's already started of course in earnest. It's not like we're at the beginning of the journey with AI, but I think that's something that will completely probably change the way again or will evolve the way again that consumers can access products within this sector. Because you should look already look at the diagnostic tools that are in place now. That's all going to improve.

A (28:54)

And, and I agree with you 100. I feel like there is a missing opportunity. That client, that brands I, I think is a perfect timing timing. They are not too late, but they need to do it now because if you don't start to be noticed by AI, you're going to be behind, you're

B (29:11)

going to be left behind. It's just as simple as that. In five years time, can you imagine what the AI capacities are going to be and capabilities are going to be? I mean I am excited about, I don't know where it's going to be, but I, I, I'm very excited about it because I think even if you look at the way AI can help run diagnostics in skin care, wellness, the longevity sector span into healthcare as well. So I think all of that will become a lot more interlinked what we are seeing a rise of which will happen more and more because before this used to be very much reserved for the very wealthy and the very privileged. You know, your, your week long detox in, you know, Chino or clinical prairie or Char Wellness. Going forward, I think a lot more, I think the hospitality industry will start to be able to make this a lot more accessible using AI as part of the diagnostic process and strategy. And then.

A (30:11)

So you're saying that hospitality is going to be able to create experiences through AI?

B (30:17)

I think so. I think it's already starting. You, you know, you look at some of these, some of them now that are pushing the, the boundaries on pre arrival, right? There are some independent results that are doing that already, some that are looking at biomarkers, some that will be able to, you know, analyze bloods before the guest even gets ont. Now I realize it's not gonna be like for everyone, you know, you're not gonna have, at the same time, there'll still be a massive percentage of this industry that is catering for, you know, a flop and drop person that's going on holiday, you know, vacationing is a flop and drop type, you know, complete chill out, relax, whatever. But I think diagnostics, markers, retreats and how people can feel genuinely more in tune to their health span is, is very the, where the hospitality, luxury, hospitality sector is going and that will definitely be powered by, by AI.

A (31:16)

Amazing. Well, I have one more question for you before we go.

B (31:20)

Cool.

A (31:21)

How do you drink your coffee

B (31:25)

that well, you're gonna be, you're gonna be a little bit annoyed with me because I bet, I bet every other of your guests are like, oh, blank, you know, my coffee. This is controversial.

A (31:35)

I, I love, I love controversial coffees

B (31:38)

because it's controversial because my husband gets so annoyed with me, my sister gets annoyed, my friends get annoyed because like we can't just make your coffee because I change it depending on what I need at different times of the day.

A (31:50)

Okay, let's, let's hear it.

B (31:52)

First coffee of the morning is black and strong.

A (31:54)

Okay?

B (31:55)

As the coffees go on throughout the day, maybe a sweetener gets introduced. I shouldn't really, but, you know, maybe milk. Maybe milk gets introduced. I switch it up. Maybe sometimes I'll have a bit of, you know, Manuka, honey. I switch it up. So there you go. I'm unpredictable. Like my coffee.

A (32:12)

Oh, my God. So I can never buy a coffee until I ask.

B (32:18)

You got to ask me what I want. I might be in the mood for something completely different. There you go.

A (32:22)

Well, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you, Tom, for being here. Really was.

B (32:26)

I look forward to our next coffee.

A (32:29)

Yes, me too. And to you guys. I hope you enjoyed this one and I will see you next week with more coffee number five. Find everything you need at larashmoisman.com or in the episode notes right below. Don't forget to subscribe. Was so good to have you here today. See you next time. Catch you on the flip side. Ciao. Ciao.