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[00:01]
A
So I'm part of a podcast editors Facebook group and one time someone shared a meme that showed a lonely guy in the corner of a party as the only one who can't listen to music while he's editing podcasts. This is fundamentally not true, and I've discovered how to make this work for myself. You should try Brain FM if you want to concentrate and not wander off in your brain while you're editing audio for your podcast. Brain FM uses entrainment with different music genres to keep your brain focused and and it also gives you the ability to listen to great sounding music while you edit a show. So head to Brain FM Coffee Podcaster link is in the show notes and you get a 30 day free trial. And then if you make a purchase, some of the proceeds go to supporting this show. All right, let's get into the episode. We were warned. We said it wouldn't be a thing. But everyone's talking about video in podcasting. I think there's good arguments for and good arguments against using video for your podcast, and I want to unpack them today. So let's get into coffee with a podcaster. There is so much content out there at the moment about video podcasting. Ever since YouTube announced that they were going to bring podcasts into their platform as a separate type of video, there's just been so much out there. Talk about discovery, talk about the quality of episodes becoming about video as opposed to audio. There are people really resisting it. There are gurus who want to sell it to you, there are videographers who are starting to want to teach it, and there are podcast veterans who lament it. What I want to do today is go through some of the arguments for and against and weigh them up and try to give you an objective perspective about the entire thing. But as a bit of background for me, I came up through podcasting as audio. I edited audio first. I feel like I have a face for radio. So video has never really been my thing. But as a podcast editor professionally, I've been exploring how to do that effectively for people in virtual environments. And there is a place for it, I think, but it's not a either or. Every situation is going to be a little bit different and every argument is strong and weak depending on the person or the podcaster that you are. So we're going to go through two arguments for two arguments against. Let's get into it. First argument is for video in podcasting, and it states that video helps discovery of podcasts. This arose from the YouTube podcasting push from last year, people state that YouTube presence provides some algorithmic discovery as an advantage, which RSS podcasts generally don't. And audio podcasts have been pushing this for ages. Thus, being on video helps with discovery. The algorithmic thing is a big advantage, but it's actually been shown to not work, to just be there, you have to be engaged with it. Now YouTube has set up the ability to ingest rss feeds into YouTube and they create a video associated with your audio that just has a thumbnail as the video, no interactive animated elements as part of it. Maybe one day people talk about it as it being a necessity because it's as simple as distributing to another platform on rss. And people purport it to be an advantage to be able to do this. But the truth of the advantage that comes from being on YouTube, particularly and algorithmic discovery as part of that, is to play the YouTube algorithm game. And people aren't playing that game when you don't have video content associated with your audio podcast on YouTube. Now, Jay Clouse has done this successfully. He was previously an audio only podcast from 2020. I think his is focused on talking to creators and his show is for creators. So it made sense that he would explore the creator side of making something work in two different platforms. And I think he does. The thing that's going to be what everybody will be recommending within the next year or so is that your video content should be different or specialized compared to your audio content. If you have a podcast, and he has shown to do this incredibly well, he will have audio episodes that are structured differently to his video episodes. His video episodes are all about learning and teaching. So what his guest says his video editor places as learning prompts on the screen. And generally there's a lot of switching, a lot of animated stuff that happens with his discussions and conversations recorded over Riverside or Squadcast or something like that. And then he focuses, particularly at the very beginning on the packaging, which is something Talked about on YouTube a lot in RSS audio terms. This is the SEO version of algorithmic discovery, but it focuses on engaging people. And in any package you have a title and a thumbnail, and both of these being the front door to your video on YouTube, whether it's a podcast or a blog or whatever. These are important to get right, to make people want to click. And then they start talking about things like hooks and intros. The things that keep people in there keep them retained. And Jay's done a really good job of being very explicit with how his he's Analyzed his retention, his analytics, and tried to restructure the way that he go about YouTube and, and doing it fairly successfully from what I can see. Although he has access to some of the top names in YouTube, such as Paddy Galloway, who focus on these things like packaging, so he learns them as well as being able to practice and then reiterate on that practice over time and maybe even get some an extra tip or two here or there. Now, all of this being said, the important thing to remember from the thing I said earlier is that there needs to be a necessary video element to benefit from that algorithmic discovery. People aren't just going to stumble on your audio only podcast on YouTube and then start recommending it and digesting the entire thing. The way it behaves is just different. And then while YouTube is trying to figure out what YouTube Music is to podcasters, and as a podcast player, that might be the place where RSS stuff goes and YouTube being a separate space, that hasn't been decided yet. But I think the flat out argument for having a podcast on YouTube that is going to help your podcast be discovered, that has been busted for a very long time. So anyone telling you that you need to be on YouTube in order to be discovered, that is, dare I say, bollocks. It's not going to happen unless you put your effort into the packaging that I mentioned or you work on getting a video component to your podcast that's going to give it a good reason to hang around there. The next argument is against, and this is that video podcasts aren't podcasts. Usually people that come up with this argument say that podcasting began as only audio only 20 years ago, came from one bloke's definition in a blog. Check out James Krimpland. I know he figured out exactly where the origin came from. It was on rss, it's always been on rss, and if it's not there, then it isn't a podcast. Now this argument is getting less and less robust over time and so many people raise it. I see people on social media all the time responding to posts about video as podcasts and saying that it's not a podcast specifically because it's not on RSS deployed as audio and it has a video component, so it cannot possibly be a podcast. But more and more, the technology of trying to define it by how a podcast is facilitated. The way that technology helps it construct itself into a medium is becoming less and less important to it. More and more. There are different ways for us to consume podcasts, social media has burst onto the scene with small snapshots as reels that bring us a little taste that can then take us to a podcast. And that's going to have a video component for the most part. If it doesn't have video, it at the very least has audio. That audio is going to be a podcast. But what I'd ask people to do is think about what makes it up as a podcast, what bit of being in audio makes it a podcast. Because there's going to be people who just record classrooms with learning content in it, deliver an entire lesson to a group of students, then upload it to an RSS feed and they'll claim it's a podcast. And yet you guys will say, these people making this argument will say that it's not a podcast because it's not a podcast. But then you ask how to define a podcast, and it has to be at RSS on audio. So you can see that this is a very circular argument. You end up arguing in circles, nobody's right or wrong, and people get sectioned off into different areas of what they consider a podcast to be. There's also a big problem that I want to talk about in another episode, unless I've talked about it already, where people only understand what a podcast is in as far as they've listened to podcasts. It's the summary of what their collective listening has been. So if people have only ever seen podcasts on YouTube, then they will presume that all podcasts are video podcasts. Similarly, if someone only listens to true crime, then all podcasts are going to be, well, sound designed journalistic commentaries on real life events, not just conversations for three hours talking about the nature of reality. It's a very subjective way to define podcasting. And from the discussions that I've had, from the arguments I've seen, and quite literally arguments, a lot of them being very circular, my take is that it's not about the technology and the way it's facilitated. It is a way to deliver value and learning and content to people. Now, there are different classifications for how these things fall, but I think anybody would say that when they hear a podcast, they know that it is a podcast. And that's going to be because of the way that it happens. It's the conversation, the way it's designed, the thought that goes into the pre, the post production. It's the immersion in a conversation, it's the intimacy with the person who's listening. Just like you're listening to this podcast right now and I am talking directly to you, the person who is my listener to coffee with a podcaster, this, this is the thing that makes up a podcast. Now, if video can engage someone in a podcast just the same way that audio can, completely ignoring the technology, the facilitation arguments of getting whatever that video or audio is to a person, then I think it's a podcast. And at the end of the day, I don't think anyone is or should be defining the value of a thing that they create because it's a podcast. They should define it as valuable because they got something valuable from it. And I will fight anyone to have that argument with me on a podcast. Perhaps go to businessbpod.com and invite me on your show. An argument against it's expensive and puts celebrities at an advantage. Generally, how this goes is that audio podcasters aren't comfortable on video because they've been doing it for five to 10 years. The Independent podcasting crowd don't have huge budgets to pay for video equipment and sets and have separate rooms with pot plants and cool back walls with neon lighting. And so celebrities are an advantage in podcasting. And so any video podcast benefits from all the advantages that they enjoy. Now, this has always been an argument against celebrities. During podcasting, there are celebrities who have dropped podcasts and had millions of downloads just at the drop of a hat. But the argument here, I don't think is a strength against video. Sure, they have access to stuff if they're actors, they're comfortable on camera, they have the ability to deliver a script without it sounding like it's been rehearsed. But video isn't the disadvantage here for podcasters. It's that celebrities hold a pre existing audience. They have their exposure. And there are podcasters who enjoy this anyway without being a celebrity. People who come from Instagram, who come from YouTube, create a podcast and successfully bring that pre established audience over to the podcast and then start seeing the downloads, the retention, the ad dollars start coming in. It's about having a following and it's not about having a video podcast. So anybody who's looking at celebrities and going, I will never be that powerful. I will never be that strong in the podcasting world because you're a celebrity and you are affecting my ability to do that. That's not the problem. I think the problem is optimization. Too many people are looking all the way up at the top of the mountain, they're looking at the top of Everest and seeing all the celebrities up there with their awesome video podcasts, with their awesome audio podcasts, succeeding with all these people following them up there. But what you really need to do is set small milestones for yourself from basecamp so that you can celebrate the achievements that you've got. And maybe you don't have to climb the entire mountain, because I don't think getting to the peak of the mountain is the thing. It's about running your own race, and it's about finding the people that enjoy listening to the content that you deliver. And there is not a finite pool of ears and eyes to enjoy your content. Your audience is there. They're ready to find you. They may not be looking for you actively, but just because they're listening to HOK Tour or Idris Elba or something, Oprah, doesn't mean that they can't listen to you. Maybe they're looking for something in Oprah that you can give them more directly. You never know until you put your podcast out there and let them find you. So celebrities aren't the worst. Sometimes our worst enemy is ourselves. Now, this is an argument for video for your podcast, and it's to give you social clips to aid in discovery. You take your video that you've just recorded on your podcast, you repurpose it for social media clips. Those clips will bring you an audience. And if you aren't doing this, your show will not grow. This also is absolute bollocks. If you've listened to my TikTok Ban voice note, you'll know how I feel about social media as a distraction. And that is quite literally what it is. You're not at a disadvantage by not engaging in social media. Sure, you might get a few people running through the door after they see a clip or two and get enticed by the content that you put out there. But it's going to be a very small amount. And part of the logic behind this is that you're asking people to go from one medium to another, moving them from Instagram or YouTube. Admittedly, the shortest distance between podcasts, potentially from X from Facebook, and you're trying to get them to another platform entirely. And if they've never listened to a podcast before, they're trying to find out whether it's Spotify, Apple, Podcasts, Podcast Addict. Do I listen on the website? Do I just go to your website? Where do I go? They're trying to figure it out. And the fewer steps as possible, the better off you're going to be. But that few steps of resistance means that social media isn't the benefit that you think it's going to be. Now, a lot of people out there will extol the virtues of social media clips for discovery on video based platforms like YouTube, for example. But I think, and I heard this in Jay Clouse's podcast, at some point, I think he was answering a Q and A. I think that it's motivated by the companies that are building platforms to allow you to create content to create these social clips. I don't think there's anyone on the other side of creating social clips that has been unsuccessful that is saying that you absolutely need this for your show. There are also no people who are successful without posting on social media that feel like they've missed out because they haven't done it. I think the companies like Descript and Opus, AI and all of these social media agencies that are charging a premium to create shorts for people, they want your business. So of course they're going to say it's necessary. It is an absolute necessity. And of course, this comes about no sooner than today. Actually yesterday, one of these days that TikTok is being taken off all of the app stores, it's being removed. Access is denied for the US until something else comes about there. What happens when an entire product ecosystem like AI generated social clips for podcasters? An entire platform disappears. All of a sudden you don't need as many clips anymore. That's maybe, let's say generously 25% of the market that's disappeared in one of the biggest countries for podcasting in the world. How do you think that's going to affect the social media agencies? How do they flip on a dime with that? And I'd say that video is going to be the avenue that they drive into. Oh, we can't do social clips for you, but you know, we have the ability to create awesome podcasts. And in my opinion, unless they can do audio well, they're not going to do a podcast well. We know that audio is more important than video to keep people retained. But there's a lot of studies out there that show that social media growth is infinitesimal compared to other things like guesting on other people's shows, feed drops in other people's podcast feeds. Those kind of relational aspects of podcasting are going to get you further around than you think you can. So my take is don't do video just to have social clips. If it's not a burden to you and it doesn't add to your workload, then go for it. But don't go out of your way to have video just so you can have social media. Especially if our platforms chop and change that easily. It's pretty crazy how quick this stuff can go. Also a bonus, don't let the gurus sell you video. This argument is simple. They want your money. They feel like they can do it because they have a podcast. And they also want to make money from the digital product free market. They want you to purchase their services to tell you how to make a lackluster podcast. And they will say things to you. They will say that video is an absolute necessity. 2025 is the year of video. Here's the products you need. Here are the services you need. Join my 12 week course to teach you how to become a better podcaster. The truth is, if you're getting started in podcasting, you need to do what's comfortable. You also need to do what facilitates your connection with your audience. What are your goals for the show? Think about what you want to deliver to them, what inspires you to create podcast content that keeps it sustainable. And don't let them tell you that video is a big part of this whole enterprise, because it's not. And hopefully, if I've only spoken to the audio side, hopefully. I've summarized this a little bit for you in the arguments I mentioned above. These are just the things that I've been seeing, you know, banded about a little bit. There are plenty more arguments to be had and if you'd like to send me one of those arguments or you've got a problem with one of the things I've said on this episode, send me an email businessbpod.com or a voice message to speakpipe.com coffee podcaster and I'll play it on the show. And when you send the voice message or the email, make sure you shout out your podcast as well. And I'll mention it on the show too. Now, if you know a podcasting professional or a podcaster who would enjoy this type of content, share this podcast with them, let them have a listen, and let me know if you enjoyed this episode too. See you in the next one.

Summary6 min read

Coffee with a Podcaster: Love Your Podcast Again

Episode Title: Video Podcasts: Let's unpack it a little bit...
Host: Matthew Bliss
Release Date: January 20, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Matthew Bliss sits down—with just a coffee and you, the listener—to untangle the thorny debates around video in podcasting. Against a backdrop of industry upheaval, where advice often comes from people with little real-world experience, Bliss cuts through the noise to objectively weigh the pros and cons of “going video.” He draws on his own multi-year editing and production experience to offer a reality check for podcasters feeling lost in the latest trends. The underlying message: pursue fulfillment and creation over fads, and don’t let the “must do video” narrative derail your podcasting joy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context: The Video Podcast Craze

[01:08 - 03:02]

The discussion around video podcasting has exploded, especially since YouTube started pushing podcasts as a new category.
Multiple voices in the industry are either evangelizing or rejecting video, some for genuine reasons, others for profit.
Matthew’s personal bias: “I have a face for radio,” but as an editor and producer, he’s explored video’s role in podcasting.

2. Argument For: Video Helps Podcast Discovery

[03:03 - 09:52]

YouTube's Algorithm Advantage: Many claim that YouTube offers discovery advantages via its algorithm, unlike traditional RSS-driven audio platforms.
Caveat: “You have to be engaged with it.” Uploading plain audio (with just a thumbnail) to YouTube will not leverage the algorithm. True discovery requires actual video content and optimization.
Case Study—Jay Clouse:
- Jay successfully adapted for both audio and video platforms by structuring content differently and investing effort into video “packaging” (title and thumbnail—"the front door to your video").
  - “Jay’s done a really good job of being very explicit with how he’s analyzed his retention, his analytics, and tried to restructure the way that he go about YouTube and, and doing it fairly successfully from what I can see.” [09:00]
- Key Success Factor: Video content must bring unique or specialized value; just repurposing audio is insufficient.
Bottom Line:
- “Anyone telling you that you need to be on YouTube in order to be discovered, that is, dare I say, bollocks.” [09:42]
- YouTube as effortless discovery for audio-only podcasts is a myth—real results require significant tailored effort.

3. Argument Against: "Video Podcasts Aren’t Podcasts"

[09:53 - 15:22]

Traditionalist Stance: Some claim podcasts are only audio delivered via RSS—if it’s not that, “it isn’t a podcast.”
Matthew’s Rebuttal:
- This logic is increasingly outdated. The term “podcast” is subjective and based on the listener’s experience, not strict technological criteria.
- Using classroom lectures as a podcast example: uploading a lesson to RSS doesn’t fit traditional definitions, but it’s still “a podcast."
- “It’s a very subjective way to define podcasting… it’s not about the technology and the way it’s facilitated. It is a way to deliver value and learning and content to people.” [13:47]
Key Insight: Podcasting is about delivering value, conversation, intimacy, and production—not simply about the medium or technology.

4. Argument Against: Video Is Expensive and Favors Celebrities

[15:23 - 19:29]

Expense & Equipment: Video requires additional resources—gear, sets, design—which independent podcasters may lack.
Celebrity Advantage: Celebrities’ existing resources and on-camera comfort make for slick video podcasts, which some feel is unfair.
Matthew’s Take:
- The real gap is not video; it’s audience. Celebrities have pre-existing exposure, but so do non-celebrities who come from other platforms.
- Real focus should be on running your own race and setting reachable goals, not fixating on celebrity “Everest.”
  - “What you really need to do is set small milestones for yourself from basecamp so that you can celebrate the achievements that you’ve got. And maybe you don’t have to climb the entire mountain…” [18:22]
- The pool of listeners isn’t finite; your audience is out there.

5. Argument For: Video Creates Social Clips to Aid Discovery

[19:30 - 24:35]

Popular Rationale: Video enables you to create social media clips (for TikTok, Instagram, etc.) that will allegedly drive podcast growth.
Matthew’s Counterpoint:
- Social media is a distraction, and its conversion rate to loyal podcast listeners is minimal.
- Transitioning users between platforms (e.g., Instagram to Spotify) introduces significant friction.
- “You’re not at a disadvantage by not engaging in social media. Sure, you might get a few people running through the door... but it’s going to be a very small amount.” [21:40]
- Many who push this narrative are companies profiting from facilitating social clips (e.g., Descript, Opus.ai), not actual successful podcasters.
- The recent U.S. TikTok ban illustrates how quickly this marketing channel can disappear.
  - “What happens when an entire product ecosystem like AI generated social clips for podcasters?... That’s maybe, let’s say generously, 25% of the market that’s disappeared.” [23:58]
- Proven growth tactics: guesting, feed drops, building true relationships—not shorts or reels.

6. Bonus: Beware the Guru Industrial Complex

[24:36 - 26:28]

“Gurus” Selling Video: Many push video as a “must” purely to sell courses, services, or products.
Matthew’s Core Advice:
- Make podcasting choices based on your own comfort, sustainability, and audience connection—not marketing hype.
  - “Do what facilitates your connection with your audience. What are your goals for the show?... And don’t let them tell you that video is a big part of this whole enterprise, because it’s not.” [25:13]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Discovery via YouTube:
- “The flat out argument for having a podcast on YouTube that is going to help your podcast be discovered, that has been busted for a very long time.” [09:30]
On Definitions:
- “It’s the conversation, the way it’s designed, the thought that goes into the pre, the post production. It’s the immersion in a conversation, it’s the intimacy with the person who’s listening… this is the thing that makes up a podcast.” [13:55]
On Celebrity and Comparison:
- “Your audience is there. They’re ready to find you. They may not be looking for you actively, but just because they’re listening to HOK Tour or Idris Elba or Oprah, doesn’t mean they can’t listen to you.” [19:15]
On Social Media “Necessity”:
- “Don’t do video just to have social clips. If it’s not a burden to you and it doesn’t add to your workload, then go for it. But don’t go out of your way to have video just so you can have social media. Especially if our platforms chop and change that easily.” [24:10]
Against Gurus:
- “They will say that video is an absolute necessity. 2025 is the year of video. Here’s the products you need. Here are the services you need. Join my 12 week course to teach you how to become a better podcaster… The truth is, if you’re getting started in podcasting, you need to do what’s comfortable.” [25:05]

Key Takeaways

Video can help, but only if done with intent and quality. Mindless video uploads to YouTube will not unlock magical discovery.
Podcasting is about delivering value, not the specific format. Don’t get caught up in debates about what's “really” a podcast.
Accessibility and growth are more about relationships and meaningful outreach (e.g., guest spots, feed swaps) than about flashy social video clips.
Don’t let “must do video” messages from profit-motivated gurus shake your foundation or your enjoyment.
Build sustainable practices that feel good and fit your unique goals.

Recommended Listening Order

For New Podcasters Feeling Overwhelmed: Listen from 03:00 – 09:50 (Discovery & YouTube discussion).
For Deep-Diving into “What is a Podcast?” Check out 09:50 – 15:20.
For Staying Sane in the Celebrity Era: 15:20 – 19:29.
For Honest Social Media Analysis: 19:30 – 24:35.
For the Guru Rant and Final Advice: 24:36 – 26:28.

If you enjoyed this episode, Matthew encourages sharing and follow-up questions via email [businessbpod.com] or Speakpipe. He’ll shout out your podcast if you get in touch!

Summary compiled by Coffee with a Podcaster fan. No video required.

Loading summary

Transcript1 lines

[00:01]
A
So I'm part of a podcast editors Facebook group and one time someone shared a meme that showed a lonely guy in the corner of a party as the only one who can't listen to music while he's editing podcasts. This is fundamentally not true, and I've discovered how to make this work for myself. You should try Brain FM if you want to concentrate and not wander off in your brain while you're editing audio for your podcast. Brain FM uses entrainment with different music genres to keep your brain focused and and it also gives you the ability to listen to great sounding music while you edit a show. So head to Brain FM Coffee Podcaster link is in the show notes and you get a 30 day free trial. And then if you make a purchase, some of the proceeds go to supporting this show. All right, let's get into the episode. We were warned. We said it wouldn't be a thing. But everyone's talking about video in podcasting. I think there's good arguments for and good arguments against using video for your podcast, and I want to unpack them today. So let's get into coffee with a podcaster. There is so much content out there at the moment about video podcasting. Ever since YouTube announced that they were going to bring podcasts into their platform as a separate type of video, there's just been so much out there. Talk about discovery, talk about the quality of episodes becoming about video as opposed to audio. There are people really resisting it. There are gurus who want to sell it to you, there are videographers who are starting to want to teach it, and there are podcast veterans who lament it. What I want to do today is go through some of the arguments for and against and weigh them up and try to give you an objective perspective about the entire thing. But as a bit of background for me, I came up through podcasting as audio. I edited audio first. I feel like I have a face for radio. So video has never really been my thing. But as a podcast editor professionally, I've been exploring how to do that effectively for people in virtual environments. And there is a place for it, I think, but it's not a either or. Every situation is going to be a little bit different and every argument is strong and weak depending on the person or the podcaster that you are. So we're going to go through two arguments for two arguments against. Let's get into it. First argument is for video in podcasting, and it states that video helps discovery of podcasts. This arose from the YouTube podcasting push from last year, people state that YouTube presence provides some algorithmic discovery as an advantage, which RSS podcasts generally don't. And audio podcasts have been pushing this for ages. Thus, being on video helps with discovery. The algorithmic thing is a big advantage, but it's actually been shown to not work, to just be there, you have to be engaged with it. Now YouTube has set up the ability to ingest rss feeds into YouTube and they create a video associated with your audio that just has a thumbnail as the video, no interactive animated elements as part of it. Maybe one day people talk about it as it being a necessity because it's as simple as distributing to another platform on rss. And people purport it to be an advantage to be able to do this. But the truth of the advantage that comes from being on YouTube, particularly and algorithmic discovery as part of that, is to play the YouTube algorithm game. And people aren't playing that game when you don't have video content associated with your audio podcast on YouTube. Now, Jay Clouse has done this successfully. He was previously an audio only podcast from 2020. I think his is focused on talking to creators and his show is for creators. So it made sense that he would explore the creator side of making something work in two different platforms. And I think he does. The thing that's going to be what everybody will be recommending within the next year or so is that your video content should be different or specialized compared to your audio content. If you have a podcast, and he has shown to do this incredibly well, he will have audio episodes that are structured differently to his video episodes. His video episodes are all about learning and teaching. So what his guest says his video editor places as learning prompts on the screen. And generally there's a lot of switching, a lot of animated stuff that happens with his discussions and conversations recorded over Riverside or Squadcast or something like that. And then he focuses, particularly at the very beginning on the packaging, which is something Talked about on YouTube a lot in RSS audio terms. This is the SEO version of algorithmic discovery, but it focuses on engaging people. And in any package you have a title and a thumbnail, and both of these being the front door to your video on YouTube, whether it's a podcast or a blog or whatever. These are important to get right, to make people want to click. And then they start talking about things like hooks and intros. The things that keep people in there keep them retained. And Jay's done a really good job of being very explicit with how his he's Analyzed his retention, his analytics, and tried to restructure the way that he go about YouTube and, and doing it fairly successfully from what I can see. Although he has access to some of the top names in YouTube, such as Paddy Galloway, who focus on these things like packaging, so he learns them as well as being able to practice and then reiterate on that practice over time and maybe even get some an extra tip or two here or there. Now, all of this being said, the important thing to remember from the thing I said earlier is that there needs to be a necessary video element to benefit from that algorithmic discovery. People aren't just going to stumble on your audio only podcast on YouTube and then start recommending it and digesting the entire thing. The way it behaves is just different. And then while YouTube is trying to figure out what YouTube Music is to podcasters, and as a podcast player, that might be the place where RSS stuff goes and YouTube being a separate space, that hasn't been decided yet. But I think the flat out argument for having a podcast on YouTube that is going to help your podcast be discovered, that has been busted for a very long time. So anyone telling you that you need to be on YouTube in order to be discovered, that is, dare I say, bollocks. It's not going to happen unless you put your effort into the packaging that I mentioned or you work on getting a video component to your podcast that's going to give it a good reason to hang around there. The next argument is against, and this is that video podcasts aren't podcasts. Usually people that come up with this argument say that podcasting began as only audio only 20 years ago, came from one bloke's definition in a blog. Check out James Krimpland. I know he figured out exactly where the origin came from. It was on rss, it's always been on rss, and if it's not there, then it isn't a podcast. Now this argument is getting less and less robust over time and so many people raise it. I see people on social media all the time responding to posts about video as podcasts and saying that it's not a podcast specifically because it's not on RSS deployed as audio and it has a video component, so it cannot possibly be a podcast. But more and more, the technology of trying to define it by how a podcast is facilitated. The way that technology helps it construct itself into a medium is becoming less and less important to it. More and more. There are different ways for us to consume podcasts, social media has burst onto the scene with small snapshots as reels that bring us a little taste that can then take us to a podcast. And that's going to have a video component for the most part. If it doesn't have video, it at the very least has audio. That audio is going to be a podcast. But what I'd ask people to do is think about what makes it up as a podcast, what bit of being in audio makes it a podcast. Because there's going to be people who just record classrooms with learning content in it, deliver an entire lesson to a group of students, then upload it to an RSS feed and they'll claim it's a podcast. And yet you guys will say, these people making this argument will say that it's not a podcast because it's not a podcast. But then you ask how to define a podcast, and it has to be at RSS on audio. So you can see that this is a very circular argument. You end up arguing in circles, nobody's right or wrong, and people get sectioned off into different areas of what they consider a podcast to be. There's also a big problem that I want to talk about in another episode, unless I've talked about it already, where people only understand what a podcast is in as far as they've listened to podcasts. It's the summary of what their collective listening has been. So if people have only ever seen podcasts on YouTube, then they will presume that all podcasts are video podcasts. Similarly, if someone only listens to true crime, then all podcasts are going to be, well, sound designed journalistic commentaries on real life events, not just conversations for three hours talking about the nature of reality. It's a very subjective way to define podcasting. And from the discussions that I've had, from the arguments I've seen, and quite literally arguments, a lot of them being very circular, my take is that it's not about the technology and the way it's facilitated. It is a way to deliver value and learning and content to people. Now, there are different classifications for how these things fall, but I think anybody would say that when they hear a podcast, they know that it is a podcast. And that's going to be because of the way that it happens. It's the conversation, the way it's designed, the thought that goes into the pre, the post production. It's the immersion in a conversation, it's the intimacy with the person who's listening. Just like you're listening to this podcast right now and I am talking directly to you, the person who is my listener to coffee with a podcaster, this, this is the thing that makes up a podcast. Now, if video can engage someone in a podcast just the same way that audio can, completely ignoring the technology, the facilitation arguments of getting whatever that video or audio is to a person, then I think it's a podcast. And at the end of the day, I don't think anyone is or should be defining the value of a thing that they create because it's a podcast. They should define it as valuable because they got something valuable from it. And I will fight anyone to have that argument with me on a podcast. Perhaps go to businessbpod.com and invite me on your show. An argument against it's expensive and puts celebrities at an advantage. Generally, how this goes is that audio podcasters aren't comfortable on video because they've been doing it for five to 10 years. The Independent podcasting crowd don't have huge budgets to pay for video equipment and sets and have separate rooms with pot plants and cool back walls with neon lighting. And so celebrities are an advantage in podcasting. And so any video podcast benefits from all the advantages that they enjoy. Now, this has always been an argument against celebrities. During podcasting, there are celebrities who have dropped podcasts and had millions of downloads just at the drop of a hat. But the argument here, I don't think is a strength against video. Sure, they have access to stuff if they're actors, they're comfortable on camera, they have the ability to deliver a script without it sounding like it's been rehearsed. But video isn't the disadvantage here for podcasters. It's that celebrities hold a pre existing audience. They have their exposure. And there are podcasters who enjoy this anyway without being a celebrity. People who come from Instagram, who come from YouTube, create a podcast and successfully bring that pre established audience over to the podcast and then start seeing the downloads, the retention, the ad dollars start coming in. It's about having a following and it's not about having a video podcast. So anybody who's looking at celebrities and going, I will never be that powerful. I will never be that strong in the podcasting world because you're a celebrity and you are affecting my ability to do that. That's not the problem. I think the problem is optimization. Too many people are looking all the way up at the top of the mountain, they're looking at the top of Everest and seeing all the celebrities up there with their awesome video podcasts, with their awesome audio podcasts, succeeding with all these people following them up there. But what you really need to do is set small milestones for yourself from basecamp so that you can celebrate the achievements that you've got. And maybe you don't have to climb the entire mountain, because I don't think getting to the peak of the mountain is the thing. It's about running your own race, and it's about finding the people that enjoy listening to the content that you deliver. And there is not a finite pool of ears and eyes to enjoy your content. Your audience is there. They're ready to find you. They may not be looking for you actively, but just because they're listening to HOK Tour or Idris Elba or something, Oprah, doesn't mean that they can't listen to you. Maybe they're looking for something in Oprah that you can give them more directly. You never know until you put your podcast out there and let them find you. So celebrities aren't the worst. Sometimes our worst enemy is ourselves. Now, this is an argument for video for your podcast, and it's to give you social clips to aid in discovery. You take your video that you've just recorded on your podcast, you repurpose it for social media clips. Those clips will bring you an audience. And if you aren't doing this, your show will not grow. This also is absolute bollocks. If you've listened to my TikTok Ban voice note, you'll know how I feel about social media as a distraction. And that is quite literally what it is. You're not at a disadvantage by not engaging in social media. Sure, you might get a few people running through the door after they see a clip or two and get enticed by the content that you put out there. But it's going to be a very small amount. And part of the logic behind this is that you're asking people to go from one medium to another, moving them from Instagram or YouTube. Admittedly, the shortest distance between podcasts, potentially from X from Facebook, and you're trying to get them to another platform entirely. And if they've never listened to a podcast before, they're trying to find out whether it's Spotify, Apple, Podcasts, Podcast Addict. Do I listen on the website? Do I just go to your website? Where do I go? They're trying to figure it out. And the fewer steps as possible, the better off you're going to be. But that few steps of resistance means that social media isn't the benefit that you think it's going to be. Now, a lot of people out there will extol the virtues of social media clips for discovery on video based platforms like YouTube, for example. But I think, and I heard this in Jay Clouse's podcast, at some point, I think he was answering a Q and A. I think that it's motivated by the companies that are building platforms to allow you to create content to create these social clips. I don't think there's anyone on the other side of creating social clips that has been unsuccessful that is saying that you absolutely need this for your show. There are also no people who are successful without posting on social media that feel like they've missed out because they haven't done it. I think the companies like Descript and Opus, AI and all of these social media agencies that are charging a premium to create shorts for people, they want your business. So of course they're going to say it's necessary. It is an absolute necessity. And of course, this comes about no sooner than today. Actually yesterday, one of these days that TikTok is being taken off all of the app stores, it's being removed. Access is denied for the US until something else comes about there. What happens when an entire product ecosystem like AI generated social clips for podcasters? An entire platform disappears. All of a sudden you don't need as many clips anymore. That's maybe, let's say generously 25% of the market that's disappeared in one of the biggest countries for podcasting in the world. How do you think that's going to affect the social media agencies? How do they flip on a dime with that? And I'd say that video is going to be the avenue that they drive into. Oh, we can't do social clips for you, but you know, we have the ability to create awesome podcasts. And in my opinion, unless they can do audio well, they're not going to do a podcast well. We know that audio is more important than video to keep people retained. But there's a lot of studies out there that show that social media growth is infinitesimal compared to other things like guesting on other people's shows, feed drops in other people's podcast feeds. Those kind of relational aspects of podcasting are going to get you further around than you think you can. So my take is don't do video just to have social clips. If it's not a burden to you and it doesn't add to your workload, then go for it. But don't go out of your way to have video just so you can have social media. Especially if our platforms chop and change that easily. It's pretty crazy how quick this stuff can go. Also a bonus, don't let the gurus sell you video. This argument is simple. They want your money. They feel like they can do it because they have a podcast. And they also want to make money from the digital product free market. They want you to purchase their services to tell you how to make a lackluster podcast. And they will say things to you. They will say that video is an absolute necessity. 2025 is the year of video. Here's the products you need. Here are the services you need. Join my 12 week course to teach you how to become a better podcaster. The truth is, if you're getting started in podcasting, you need to do what's comfortable. You also need to do what facilitates your connection with your audience. What are your goals for the show? Think about what you want to deliver to them, what inspires you to create podcast content that keeps it sustainable. And don't let them tell you that video is a big part of this whole enterprise, because it's not. And hopefully, if I've only spoken to the audio side, hopefully. I've summarized this a little bit for you in the arguments I mentioned above. These are just the things that I've been seeing, you know, banded about a little bit. There are plenty more arguments to be had and if you'd like to send me one of those arguments or you've got a problem with one of the things I've said on this episode, send me an email businessbpod.com or a voice message to speakpipe.com coffee podcaster and I'll play it on the show. And when you send the voice message or the email, make sure you shout out your podcast as well. And I'll mention it on the show too. Now, if you know a podcasting professional or a podcaster who would enjoy this type of content, share this podcast with them, let them have a listen, and let me know if you enjoyed this episode too. See you in the next one.