How to Educate Clients Instead of Convincing Them

Summary

Coffee With Cole: The Digital Writing Podcast Episode: How to Educate Clients Instead of Convincing Them
Host: Nicolas Cole
Release Date: March 4, 2025

In this insightful episode of "Coffee With Cole: The Digital Writing Podcast," host Nicolas Cole delves into the strategic approach of educating clients rather than attempting to convince them of the value of premium ghostwriting services. Drawing from real-world interactions and personal experiences, Cole offers actionable advice for digital writers and ghostwriters navigating the evolving landscape of content creation, especially in the age of AI.

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Introduction to Client Engagement

The episode kicks off with Cole engaging in a casual conversation with a guest named Vishal, celebrating personal milestones and sharing anecdotes about chasing the northern lights in Finland. This sets a relatable tone before transitioning into the core topic of client engagement.

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The Problem with Traditional Convincing

Timestamp [00:32]: Cole introduces the primary question: “In the age of AI tools that handle 80-90% of content creation, what is the value of a ghostwriter who charges significantly more?” He emphasizes the common mistake writers make by trying to convince clients of their worth over affordable AI alternatives.

Cole: “You are not trying to convince the client of anything. As soon as you start with the frame of how do I convince them of this you, you've sort of lost the plot.”

Educating Clients: The Core Strategy

Cole advocates for educating clients about their unrecognized needs and challenges rather than pushing for a sale. By asking insightful questions, writers can uncover deeper issues that AI tools cannot address.

Timestamp [02:00]:

Cole: “It's to educate them on what they don't know. It's to educate them on things that they aren't aware of. Because if I educate you sufficiently, I don't need to convince you. You sell yourself.”

He advises against starting conversations by comparing ghostwriting services to AI tools. Instead, engage clients by understanding their processes, identifying shortcomings, and highlighting areas for improvement.

Cole: “What's your process been? Or like, what do you typically do? There's how long does it take you? I play with it a couple hours a week. Interesting...”

The Importance of Surrounding Skills in Ghostwriting

Beyond writing, Cole underscores the significance of ancillary skills that enhance a ghostwriter's value. These include:

• Positioning and Offer Creation: Helping clients define their brand and service offerings.
• Client Interviewing: Asking thoughtful questions to uncover true needs.
• Account Management: Over-communicating, managing deadlines, and handling feedback constructively.
• Emotional Resilience: Accepting revisions without personalizing criticism.

Timestamp [08:30]:

Cole: “The game of making more money as a writer is about all the skills that surround the writing.”

He contrasts this with platforms like Upwork and Fiverr, where writers often struggle with pricing power due to a lack of these supplementary skills.

The Role of AI in Content Creation

Cole acknowledges the transformative impact of AI tools on content creation, noting that while AI can handle a significant portion of writing tasks, the true value lies in the human-centric skills that AI cannot replicate.

Timestamp [10:44]:

Cole: “Whoever can educate you the most on a problem you inherently assume is the best person to help you.”

He highlights that only a small fraction of businesses are adept at leveraging AI effectively, leaving a vast majority in need of skilled ghostwriters who can offer more than automated solutions.

Practical Frameworks for Identifying Client Problems

When asked about specific frameworks to identify and highlight client problems, Cole shares his systematic approach:

1. Research Client’s Online Presence:

   • Assess their website, social media, and other digital touchpoints.
   • Identify visible gaps or outdated elements.

2. List Specific Issues:

   • Example: “Looks like you haven't posted anything in three years.”
   • Example: “Your newsletter subscription process is ineffective.”

3. Guide Conversations Based on Findings:

   • Use these observations to steer discussions toward areas where clients may need assistance.

Timestamp [12:32]:

Vishal: “If you were starting today, I mean, what were specific frameworks that you would have chosen to be able to identify and highlight these problems?”

Timestamp [12:58]:

Cole: “I would just make a little list for the person I'd be like, I went to your profile... Here's five or six problems that I notice.”

This methodical approach ensures that conversations are grounded in tangible observations, making it easier to demonstrate value without overt persuasion.

The Lesson from Building Ship 30: Focus and Depth

Cole shares a personal anecdote about launching Ship 30, a program aimed at building daily writing habits. Despite implementing numerous strategies—gamification, rewards, coaching—the team struggled to achieve consistent participation. This experience taught Cole the importance of deeply understanding specific problems rather than addressing broad or superficial ones.

Timestamp [15:40]:

Cole: “We couldn't even get, like, 20% of people to do it the first day... It taught me a tremendous amount about how much you have to dig into one problem.”

He connects this lesson to the broader theme of focusing on specific client needs rather than trying to offer all-encompassing solutions, reinforcing the idea that mastery in particular areas leads to greater success and client satisfaction.

Conclusion: Embracing Opportunities Amid AI

In wrapping up, Cole reflects on the duality between hard skills and mental frameworks. He expresses frustration with those who perceive AI as eliminating opportunities for writers, advocating instead for a mindset that sees AI as a tool to enhance human capabilities.

Cole: “There's so much opportunity that it's overwhelming, like you can't even wrap your head around it.”

By focusing on education, specialized skills, and deep problem-solving, writers can navigate the challenges posed by AI and continue to provide invaluable service to their clients.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Shift from Convincing to Educating: Focus on uncovering and addressing client problems rather than battling over price or tools.
2. Develop Surrounding Skills: Enhance your value through positioning, offer creation, client management, and emotional resilience.
3. Leverage AI as a Tool: Use AI to handle routine tasks, allowing you to focus on strategic, creative, and interpersonal aspects that AI cannot replicate.
4. Research and Personalize: Conduct thorough research on potential clients to identify specific issues and tailor your approach accordingly.
5. Focus on Depth Over Breadth: Specialize in solving particular problems to build expertise and trust, rather than attempting to offer exhaustive services.

By adopting these strategies, digital writers and ghostwriters can effectively differentiate themselves in a competitive market, demonstrating their unique value beyond what AI tools can offer.

Transcript

[Cole]

All right, let's dive in. We have some. We have some good hot seats today. So this first one, do we have Vishal? Vishal, you want to talk this question?

[Vishal]

Hey, Cole, Happy Thursday and happy one year anniversary.

[Cole]

Thanks very much. Thank you.

[Vishal]

How did you celebrate?

[Cole]

We. We went to Finland and chased the northern lights. It was fun.

[Vishal]

Wow. Did you get to see it?

[Cole]

We got to see it. We got to see it. I was very, very excited. Apparently it was a good year to see them.

[Vishal]

Awesome. Awesome. That's on my bucket list as well. By the way.

[Cole]

You should every. Everyone here, like the Nordics. Got it figured out. It was. It was a very pretty, Very pretty country and very cool.

[Vishal]

Beautiful.

[Cole]

This is a great question. This. Actually, when I saw this question come through, it inspired me to write a couple things. I just made a quick YouTube video and loom sort of on this topic that I posted on YouTube yesterday. If you.

[Vishal]

Yesterday? Yeah, I saw it.

[Cole]

So you watched it. So I'm curious, like, is there any other context on this question or anything from that video that made you think or what do you want to dig into here? Oh, there you go.

[Vishal]

Thank you. Most of my. Most of the people whom I approach, they say that they're pretty happy with the kind of content that's coming out. They might be getting a few, you know, likes in double digits, and they say it's okay so long as, you know, I just have to pay about $60 because you're asking for something like 2,500 or $3,000. How do I convince them? Or, you know, what are certain aspects where if I get onto a call, I can probably explain that their perspective matters more, but how do I get them on a call when they feel like what they have is good enough? I hope that made sense.

[Cole]

Yeah. So to. To clarify and just recap the question for everyone here, the question is, in the age of these AI tools, and I use them and I help build them in many ways. In the age of these AI tools that say they can take care of 80, 90% of the content creation, what does your role as a ghostwriter look like? What is your value? And especially when you start comparing the costs. Like, a tool might cost 20, 30, 50, 60, 100 bucks a month, but a ghostwriter is trying to charge three grand or five grand a month. Right. So there's a couple different things to think about here. One is very important nuance. You are not trying to convince the client of anything. As soon as you start with the frame of how do I convince them of this you, you've sort of lost the plot. The entire, the entire game is not to convince people of things. It's to educate them on what they don't know. It's to educate them on things that they aren't aware of. Because if I educate you sufficiently, I don't need to convince you. You sell yourself. Right. So I'll get. Let's. Let's give a really simple example. You pitch a client and a client goes, you know, I like your service. Kind of interesting, but honestly, like, I've just been playing with easygen at night and I create a lot of my own LinkedIn content. I. I don't know why I would hire you for 10 times the price. The mistake would be, let me convince you why I'm better than AI. That's the mistake. What you do instead is you start asking questions and you go, oh, that's really cool. I've been playing with easygen too. Like, what. What's your process been? Or like, what do you typically do? There's. How long does it take you? I play with it a couple hours a week. Interesting. Does that allow you to create enough content for the week? Yeah, it does. Okay, well, cool. I just pulled up your LinkedIn and I was just sort of looking through and, you know, the posts aren't bad. I just wanted to point out a couple things that I think would help you improve a lot. I think you could improve this hook. You know, just for context, like, this hook doesn't perform as well. This would perform a lot better. By the way, I should also ask, like, what. What's your overarching strategy here? What are you trying to accomplish? The more questions you ask, two things happen. They divulge problems and they share goals. And as you start to learn what they're struggling with or what they care about, that becomes the thing that you speak to. You don't actually speak to the comparison of AI and my skill. You speak to, what do they care about? And so that's, that's point A. Point B is something that I think is a really hard thing for a lot of people to wrap their heads around, is that AI is going to infiltrate, like, massively infiltrate the top 1% of companies. We use AI all inside our business. Like, the top 1% of really digitally savvy companies are, are going to just absorb every AI tool you could possibly use. There are 34 million small businesses in the U.S. 99% of them don't even know how to create a filter in Gmail. They don't know how to connect a zapier to Excel. They don't know that you can set up different tags or automations in ConvertKit. They don't even know what ConvertKit is. And so the thing that it, it's, it's this almost like cognitive dissonance where it's like, on the one hand, is AI impacting everything. Yes. But the reality is that the vast majority of businesses and business owners do not have the time, the awareness or the proficiency to absorb any of those tools. So what happens is a ghostwriter, you go pitch or you go talk to a top 1% company, you go talk to like an AI startup, and to them they're like, well, yeah, of course we're using AI and we've automated all this. And you know what? It's total, it's totally fine. Like, we, we actually don't need a Ghostwriter. We get 80%, like, it's all good. Right? And the mistake is you hear that perspective one time and you go, that must be everyone. And it's not everyone. It's a very, very, very small percentage of the market. Very small. And by the way, I can tell you because I'm, you know, Dickie and I are in all these group chats and all these DM chats with all these different creators and like, everybody knows everybody, and even other really smart, like, digitally savvy people that you all probably follow and look up to, they have such cool businesses, like, they don't even know how to do it. So I think it's really important not to have one experience and then extrapolate it to everyone you know. So that's point two, the last point, the third point is that one of the hardest things for writers to wrap their heads around is that they think that the game of making more money as a writer is about getting better at writing. And it's not. The game of making more money as a writer is about all the skills that surround the writing. What are all the skills that surround the writing? It's helping the client think through positioning. It's helping them think through offer creation. It's helping them even think through their own packaging and pricing. It's interviewing them. It's asking thoughtful questions. It's when you ask a question, you're not waiting for them to stop talking so that you can talk so that you can show how much you know. It's you asking a question thoughtfully so that you can absorb and go, okay, you know what, what you just said, this part isn't that new. It's not that different. But this thing that you just said, that's actually the unique idea. That's really cool. We should write about that. It's the account management. It's over communication, it's communicating deadlines, it's being able to receive a draft that's got a zillion edits on it and not freak out and have an emotional reaction and be like, I guess I'm a terrible writer and I guess the client hates me and I should go run off into the forest, right? All of these skills surround the writing. And the easiest and purest example, if you, if you want proof of how true this is, the reason Upwork and Fiverr exist is because all of those writers don't want to build the skills that surround the writing. The entire platform is designed to say, I only want to write, just hire me and tell me what to write. And as a result, all of those people have no pricing power. So that becomes the choice. It's like, I only want to write. I don't want to build a single other skill. Okay, well then I Hope you're happy making $10 an hour, right? If you want to not do that, if you want to charge a premium, if you want to work with really cool clients, if you want to either have a super lucrative side hustle or you want ghostwriting to be your full time income. Like the entire game is actually not about the writing. It's about all the skills that surround the writing. And in the age of AI, this is actually terrific news for all of you because the reality is AI can help you improve the quality of 50, 80% of the writing, right? And so that, going back to the original question, Vishal is a long winded way of me getting there. But the original question is like, you know, how do I convince them? You don't convince them. What you do is you demonstrate proficiency around all the other skills around the writing. Hey, Gen or Easygen or whatever can maybe help them write 80% quality LinkedIn posts, right? But that's not the only problem, or that's not even the core problem for a lot of people. It's like, what do I even talk about in the first place? Or what is, what is my ultimate goal? Or no one's looked at my profile. I didn't even know that you could pin assets to my profile to start driving email subs, right? So does, does that make sense? And for everyone here, does, does that make sense?

[Vishal]

Yeah, I guess like you say, make them first see the problem so that then they would want a solution for it make them and then show that you own the problem.

[Cole]

Yes. They cannot care about the solution until they first connect to and care about the problem. And so the mistake is that people try and convince people of the solution, and that's actually not the game. I could talk about the solution till I'm blue in the face. It's not going to make you care. Right. The way I make you care is by digging into the problem and by demonstrating this is like the root of the root that like hides beneath the surface. No, you don't see it, but this is what dot. This is what rules the entire game. Whoever can educate you the most on a problem you inherently assume is the best person to help you. If I can articulate what you're going through with such visceral and specific language, you're not going to go, oh, wow, that was. I never thought about it that way. Thanks for the conversation. I'm going to go on upwork and go try and find someone to help me solve it. You're not going to do that. The client's going to go, wow, I've never heard someone be able to articulate what I care about or what I'm going through with such details. How do you know that? Do you work with people like me? Would you be able to help me? Right. So whoever, whoever speaks directly to and educates on the problem is ultimately who has the opportunity to own the solution. Does that answer your question, Vishal?

[Vishal]

Yeah. Final one, if you don't mind me asking.

[Cole]

Sure.

[Vishal]

If you were starting today, I mean, what were specific frameworks that you would have chosen to be able to identify and highlight these problems? Some. Some 20% that have really worked for you like a charm. Is there anything like that?

[Cole]

I mean, you know, the specifics of. Is fine. I've been writing on the Internet since the mid 2000s.

[Vishal]

Okay.

[Cole]

So I've seen the same patterns over and over and over again. And the platforms might change, the formats might change, the viral. The things that go viral versus the things that don't might change. But ultimately the rules don't. The rules stay the same. And the same thing that I would do today is what I was doing back in 2016, 2017, 2018, which is before I talked to every single client, every single sales call, every single, like cold DM or email or. I'm going to follow up. I'm going to follow up. I would do the same thing. I would take 10 or 15 minutes, I would go find their company website, see if the founder had a website. Founder, socials company socials, and I would just poke around and I would. And I would just make a little list for the. For the person I'd be like, I went to your profile. Looks like you haven't posted anything in three years. Also looks like you don't have a pinned asset. I went to your company website. It says, subscribe to my newsletter. A, that's a horrible offer. B, I typed in my email, and I didn't receive anything. Like, I just. Just made a list of, like, here's five or six problems that I notice, right? I would walk into the call, or I would send that in a cold DM or whatever it is. But if I walked into a call with that, I would have those problems in my mind, and I would have the conversation of, let me find out what you care about, and let me see which one of these problems you connect with most. And once I know those two things you told me the answer, I know exactly what to speak to. You know the real pro tip, and I really encourage this for everyone. This is a lesson I. I learn more and more every single year is do not underestimate the amount of effort it takes in order to become proficient in even a single problem. So I'll. I'll tell you a really. A really great example of this. When we first started Ship 30 back in 2021, the core problem that we said we solved or wanted to help people solve was, we will help you build a daily writing habit. And in the very beginning, just like everyone, I thought naively, oh, well, you just tell people you should write every day, and then they'll do it. What do you. Everyone here, what do you think happens when you just tell everyone, hey, you should just write every day for 30 days, and I bet you'll do it? Do you think every single person does it every single day for 30 days? We couldn't even get, like, 20% of people to do it the first day, right? Yeah, just eat salads every day. You got it. You heard it once. I'm sure you'll go do that, right? It's such a simple problem. It's like the simplest problem. Hey, you should write for 15 minutes every day. So then I go, wow, that's actually a harder problem than I thought. The next cohort. All right, what can we do to incentivize people? Well, maybe we could have, like, an onboarding, and we get them really excited, and then we give them all this information, and then they'll finally build their daily writing habit. Did everyone do it? Nope. Maybe, like, 3% or 5% more people did it. Next cohort. All right, same problem. What do we do? All right, well, what if we give everyone a tracker and we have them mark off the days and then on every call we check in and okay, did everyone do it? No. Okay, next cohort, what do we do? Well, what if we gamify it? What if we say every day someone. We worked on that problem for three straight years. It's the simplest problem. It's like just write for 15 minutes every day. And by the end of, you know, when we ran our last cohort of ship 30, we had automation systems, we had gamification systems, we had rewards, we gave away swag, we had, we had coaches checking in, we had DM sequences, we, we had like 25 different things set up trying to get people to just write for 15 minutes every day. And even still, we couldn't get 100% of people in ship 30 to do it. And that taught me a tremendous amount about how much you have to dig into one problem. So let me connect that to what we're talking about here. Another mistake that writers make is they're like, well, I do every service for everyone, right? We talk about that all the time. The issue with that is that you, it never allows you to spend time digging into a specific problem related to a specific service. That's why we talk so much about picking a specific vehicle or really digging into a specific skill. Right? So even if you just take educational email courses, for example, Right. There are, there are so many nuanced problems in that, and there's so many nuanced faulty beliefs in that. For everyone here who's taken a sales call or started taking sales calls, as you take more of them, you will notice the patterns. One group of clients is going to be like, why do I need an opt in? Another group of clients is going to be like, we already have one. Even though it sucks. Another group of clients is going to be like, email doesn't work. It's not real. What do you mean email doesn't work? It's like the most popular messaging system in all of humanity for the past 30 years. So it takes time to dig into the specific problems related to each individual skill and service. And so to answer your question, Vishal, again, long winded way of me saying the best thing you can do is not try and chase everything and instead allow yourself the time to really dig into, like, how do I get people to understand just this one thing? You know, I don't need them to understand everything. I don't need them to understand email systems and social content and video scripts and, like, everything. Right. I just need them to understand this one thing. And then when you do that, and if you can get them to understand one thing, then they. You earn their trust, you build the relationship, and then inevitably, more opportunities present themselves. Does that make sense? Yep.

[Vishal]

Good. Thanks a lot.

[Cole]

Awesome. It's a great, great question. There's a lot of questions within the question here. Thanks for sharing, Vishal.

[Vishal]

Thank you, too.

[Cole]

All right, let's keep it rocking. Is that helpful for everyone? I know I just covered a lot. There's a lot in there, but a lot of these things, like, more and more, I feel like there's such this duality between hard skills and. I don't even want to call it soft skills. It's like, like mental frames. The way you see the world is the way the world is, you know, and if. If you see the world through a lens of, well, you know, AI is here, and I guess I. There's no more opportunity for me, well, then you're not going to see opportunity, you know, I don't see the world that way. And as a result, I suffer from a severe disorder called Everywhere I go, all I see are problems that I could solve. It's like, I can't turn it off in my brain. It's. It's. It's extremely annoying. And every single day I have to be like, cole, you can't solve every problem. You can't chase every opportunity. Just stay focused. Right? So it, like, almost angers me whenever I hear people be like, there's no opportunity for me because I, like, live in a constant state of frustration because I can't pursue every opportunity that I see, you know? So there. There's so much opportunity that it's overwhelming, like you can't even wrap your head around it.