Why Follow-Ups Are Actually An Act of Kindness

Summary

Podcast Summary: Coffee With Cole: The Digital Writing Podcast

Episode Title: Why Follow-Ups Are Actually An Act of Kindness
Host: Nicolas Cole
Release Date: March 11, 2025

In this insightful episode of "Coffee With Cole," host Nicolas Cole engages in a meaningful dialogue with his guest, Brian, focusing on the art and business of digital writing, particularly emphasizing the creation and value of Educational Email Courses (EECs). The conversation unpacks strategies for effectively communicating the benefits of EECs to clients, developing robust email course frameworks, and the broader implications of marketing and client relationships in digital writing.

1. Understanding and Articulating the Value of Educational Email Courses (EECs)

Brian initiates the discussion by expressing his struggle with conveying the benefits of EECs to clients. He's building his own website but finds it challenging to highlight the advantages effectively.

Nicolas Cole (A) responds by introducing a strategic approach:

"Whenever a client asks you a question, the skill to build is to figure out, do I need to answer their question or do I need to reframe their question?" ([00:56])

Cole emphasizes the importance of reframing client questions to better showcase the value of EECs. Instead of directly listing benefits, he suggests identifying the common questions clients' customers have and demonstrating how EECs can address these queries automatically, thereby reducing repetitive tasks for customer support teams.

For example, if a client's customers frequently ask about product materials or sizing, an EEC can preemptively provide this information, enhancing customer experience and operational efficiency.

"The benefit of an EEC is that instead of you having to answer those questions over and over and over again... we're just answering them on autopilot from the beginning." ([03:48])

2. The Power of Repetition and Practice in Communication

Brian acknowledges the clarity in Cole's explanation but admits to struggling with conveying multiple benefits coherently. Cole reassures him by drawing a parallel to learning a musical instrument:

"It's not hard, you just have to do it more." ([04:56])

He highlights that, much like practicing piano scales, consistently articulating the benefits will eventually make it natural. The key is persistence and repeated efforts to refine the message until it resonates clearly with clients.

3. Developing an Effective Framework for Email Courses

Moving into more advanced territory, Brian references a YouTube video by Cole on structuring course modules. He outlines Cole’s five-part framework for creating comprehensive email courses: reasons why, benefits, mistakes to avoid, steps/actions, and walkthrough examples (proofs). Brian wonders if focusing solely on mistakes within an EEC would be sufficient.

Cole responds affirmatively, explaining that a mistake-led approach can be highly effective:

"Mistakes are one of those things that I have found that you could talk about literally for 300 pages and someone wouldn't get bored." ([06:06])

He contrasts this with a reasons-based approach, noting that while listing reasons can initially convince a reader, it may not sustain their interest long enough to prompt action:

"If the only thing you gave the reader was reasons... they would be like, I got convinced me. Like, tell me what to do now." ([07:05])

Instead, a mistake-led EEC encourages readers to take actionable steps to avoid common pitfalls, thereby maintaining engagement and offering tangible value.

4. Flexibility in Structuring EECs

Brian considers extending his email course beyond the initial five days to address objections and add further value. Cole supports this flexibility, emphasizing that there is no rigid structure one must adhere to:

"Can one day be about mistakes? Can another day be about reasons? Can another day be about steps? The answer is always yes." ([10:26])

He introduces the "coffee shop test," advocating for explaining concepts as if conversing casually over coffee. This approach ensures the content remains relatable and digestible:

"If you were to meet up with someone for coffee and they asked you how to do something, how would you explain it to them?" ([11:15])

5. Marketing Insights and Building Client Relationships

Cole shares his marketing philosophy, drawing from his experience in 2016 when he successfully onboarded 200 clients by promoting writing on platforms like Quora, Medium, and LinkedIn. He underscores that clients are investing in his expertise and the time he has dedicated to experimenting and refining strategies:

"What the client is buying is that you tried some things, you figured out, hey, I think this thing works a little bit better than this thing." ([13:00])

He dispels the myth of a one-size-fits-all solution in marketing, advocating for continual experimentation and personalization:

"There is no right answer in marketing... What people are buying is trying things." ([14:02])

6. Concluding Reflections and Practical Takeaways

As the conversation concludes, Brian reflects on the discussions, recognizing the importance of continuous practice and adaptation in developing effective EECs. Cole reiterates the significance of understanding client needs and maintaining flexibility in content creation.

"I do think it's helpful going back and forth and looking through the different lenses and understanding, like, why are we approaching it the way that we're approaching it?" ([17:23])

Key Takeaways:

• Reframe Client Questions: Instead of directly answering, reframe to highlight how EECs address underlying client needs.

• Consistent Practice: Mastering the articulation of benefits and structuring of EECs comes with repeated effort and refinement.

• Flexible Frameworks: While having a structured approach is beneficial, flexibility allows for more engaging and effective content.

• Value of Expertise: Clients invest in the practitioner's proven expertise and the iterative processes they've undertaken to develop effective strategies.

• Personalized Marketing: Emphasizes the importance of testing and personalizing marketing strategies to meet unique client needs.

Notable Quotes:

• "Whenever a client asks you a question, the skill to build is to figure out, do I need to answer their question or do I need to reframe their question?" — Nicolas Cole ([00:56])

• "The benefit of an EEC is that instead of you having to answer those questions over and over... what if we just answered them on autopilot from the beginning?" — Nicolas Cole ([03:48])

• "Mistakes are one of those things that I have found that you could talk about literally for 300 pages and someone wouldn't get bored." — Nicolas Cole ([06:06])

• "If the only thing you gave the reader was reasons... they would be like, I got convinced me. Like, tell me what to do now." — Nicolas Cole ([07:05])

• "There is no right answer in marketing... What people are buying is trying things." — Nicolas Cole ([14:02])

Conclusion:

Nicolas Cole's discussion with Brian offers a comprehensive exploration of creating and marketing Educational Email Courses. By focusing on strategic communication, flexible structuring, and leveraging personal expertise, digital writers and marketers can enhance their offerings and build stronger client relationships. This episode serves as a valuable guide for those looking to deepen their understanding of digital writing and effective marketing strategies.

Transcript

[A]

All right, Brian, what's going on?

[B]

Hey, cool. Can you hear me?

[A]

Yeah, you're all good. Coming through.

[B]

Awesome. How are you?

[A]

I'm doing fantastic. We got the coffee hitting. We're ready to rock.

[B]

Cool. Awesome. So the. My two questions are kind of from more a beginner one to more advanced. So the first one was if you could help me to just articulate better how to explain the value offered of the educational email courses. And this is because I was building my own website to, you know, to point out to the clients, and it was a. I noticed that I kind of struggled to, you know, explain the benefits of the email courses, so I was kind of wondering if it could help me to articulate them better.

[A]

Cool. So this is a very common question. Here is the most effective way I've found to articulate the value of an eec. You simply ask the client. So little meta framework here. Whenever a client asks you a question, the skill to build is to figure out, do I need to answer their question or do I need to reframe their question? Okay. Sometimes someone asks you a question and all you need to do is just give them the answer, right? They're like, and how much does this charge? You're like, it costs three grand a month. Right? Okay. You know, how often do you post? We post once a day, Right. Question, answer. Other times, when a client asks you a question, you have to realize that in some way they're trying to shape the frame of the conversation. And if you start to respond to them, then they're the one running the conversation, not you. And so the way that when I hear this question, right, I immediately think we need to reframe the question. And so if a client's like, okay, well, can you explain, like, what. What are the benefits of an EEC if you try and, like, convince them of. Starts becoming an uphill battle, right? So when I hear that question, I put it aside and I go, I'm going to ask a different question back. And the different question I ask back is, yes. Real quick, are there like three to five questions that your potential customers ask you all the time? What are questions that your customers ask you all the time? And the client goes, well, yeah, I mean, typically people come to our site and, you know, we have an E commerce brand and people don't know, like, is it 100% cotton or is it, do we use plastic in our clothes? Or, you know, where do we source our materials from or will their size work for them? Right? So they. You ask them a new question and they just told you the answer. They literally just said to you. Our customers have questions, which means all you have to do is say, great, thank you. The benefit of an EEC is that instead of you having to answer those questions over and over and over again, or instead of your customer support team having to answer those questions over and over and over again, what if we just answered them on autopilot from the beginning? That's the easiest way to explain the value of an eec, because every single customer has questions and every single company thinks the way you overcome those questions is by giving them a discount. And those two things are not the same. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, it's, it makes it so easy to hear it from you. But like, sometimes when I try to articulate like many different benefits, like from free and more like, I know the benefits, but like, I kind of struggle sometimes to, you know, to explain them. Like, I wouldn't say, like to, to make sense to the client, you know.

[A]

Yeah. How many times have you done it?

[B]

Probably not enough.

[A]

I mean, the first time I tried to play a scale on the piano, I really struggled too, you know, I mean, it's like all of, it's not that any of these things are really hard. You know, I, I can help accelerate the learning by saying, here, let's just skip to the answer. I just gave you the answer. Right. But you still have to go through the process of you have to say it 10 or 20 times before it starts to sound natural, you know, and so you'll get there like it, it's not hard, you just have to do it more.

[B]

Yeah. So thank you for answering the first question. And the second is more advanced and it's related directly to the writing part of the educational email courses. I watched a YouTube video that you wrote that you made, and it's the how to write a course module. And there are five parts, which is the, the reason why, which is the benefits, the mistakes to avoid. So the problems, the steps, so the actions, the commonly asked questions, the objections, and the walkthrough examples which are the proofs. And of course, it makes sense to me to build an email course following this pattern. Let's say. So I had a question which is will be like a mistake led email course. Be enough to be like, will perform well. Just a mistake led email course.

[A]

Yeah. So, okay, so just to clarify for everyone, this is a little framework that I've come up with because I use this whenever we're creating digital products called the Perfect Course. Module which is in some sort of digital product or module. These are, these are the different pieces that I'm aiming to have. I want to have like reasons why you should do this or listen to me. The mistakes if you don't, the benefits if you do the steps. Here's how to do it. Commonly asked questions AKA here are all the objections that you probably have swirling around in your head now and then examples. Let me prove to you that this works, right? This is a different framework than the different kinds of EECs you can have. You know, you could make a mistakes eec, you could make a crash course EEC right There, there's all different, different kinds. I don't think in an EEC you need to try and get all of these pieces into each email. I don't know that you have enough space because for context, the average course module that I create for a digital product is somewhere in the ballpark of 3 to 10,000 words. It's like borderline a book chapter, you know. So trying to get all of these things into an email is really challenging. Now I'll skip to the answer and then I'll explain a little bit. So your question is like, can you have just a mistakes eec? The answer is yes. And of all the different types of EECs, mistakes are one of those things that I have found that you could talk about literally for 300 pages and someone wouldn't get bored. Everyone wants to know what not to do. Compare that with reasons, right? If you, if you go back to, to the 10 magical ways sort of framework, right? Like, and I should have this memorized by now, but I don't, but you know, it's like tips and stats and steps and reasons is one of them. And mistakes and personal stories and examples. Right? Reasons. If you were like, I'm going to, I'm going to make a five day EEC about all the reasons why you should start writing online. If the only thing you gave the reader was reasons at a certain point they would be like, I don't need any more reasons. Like, I got, I got. You've convinced me. Like, tell me what to do now. Right? Which is different than if you say, I'm going to point out the five biggest mistakes that people make and I'm going to tell you how to solve each one. Right? And so some, something I think about a lot in writing is that it's not necessarily. I don't like thinking about it like there's good ideas or bad ideas. I think good and bad is a very misleading way of thinking about what we're doing because it's subjective. Instead of thinking about good or bad, I like to think of just helpful or not helpful, valuable or not valuable. And a lot of times that comes down to putting yourself in the mind of the reader and imagining. Okay, if I give them five reasons why they should do this thing, do they really need more? Do they need 10 reasons why? Probably not. Like, I could probably do a sufficient job with five. You know, so you're always just sort of thinking like it's the game of how do I give them enough where they feel like they got something out of it, But I'm not giving them so much that they're like, why are you making me read Crime and Punishment in order to know how to do this thing? You know what I mean? There you go.

[B]

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. You know, while I was watching the video, which is amazing, honestly, I was kind of figuring out like, if of course it will make sense and if it was possible to. I mean, of course it is possible to like extend an email course to answer like different questions, but it was kind of trying to figure out to like it would even make sense in the first place. So.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, a lot of these things. And Mike, you have a good follow up question which is, is it bad to incorporate different ideas into your ec? So can. Can one day be about mistakes? Can another day be about reasons? Can another day be about how to steps? Right. And the answer is always yes. Like, of course you can. You know, it's. It's sort of like when I, when I walk through the 10 magical ways framework and people ask, you know, do you have to do them in a certain order? No. Like the, the only order that matters or the only decision that matters is whether or not you are successfully helping the reader. That's. That's it. It's. It's not that there's, there's a right again, good and bad. It's not that there's like a right way and a wrong way necessarily. It's. I really, you know, the, A different way of thinking about it that I always use is like the coffee shop test. If you were to meet up with someone for coffee and they asked you how to do something, how would you explain it to them? Right. If I met up, if I met up with one of you here for coffee and you were like, cole, explain to me how to write my first 10 atomic essays on the Internet, I could start with. Well, before you start, let me tell you some mistakes to Avoid. Or I could start with here's some reasons why you should start writing online to begin with. Or I could just skip both of those and I could just go right into let me tell you how to write your first post. Right. It's not that any one of those is the right or wrong decision, it's just they're all choices. My job is to present the different choices, present the different ways of thinking about it, and then each of you can decide and go, I think it would be cool to start with mistakes or I think it would be cool to start with reasons. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. Just a quick question as a follow up of what you just said. You know, probably the way reason why you wrote your, your email course that way is because maybe you were, I mean, you were building a, your own product. So like the question is, if I'm doing the same for a client, why wouldn't I do the same thing?

[A]

You should. You should.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like again, not to overthink it. Right? Like, what is the client really buying? What the client is buying is that you tried some things, you figured out, hey, I think that this thing works a little bit better than this thing. And they're like, great, how about we do that? Like that's, that's what so many people misunderstand about services and misunderstand about writing is that the client isn't buying. I now tell you what to write. What the client is buying is you tried some things on your own, you practiced on yourself, you invested in yourself, you showed up to a bunch of these calls and internalized a bunch of frameworks and then went and practiced. Right? You did a bunch of stuff and then you go to the client and you go, I spent a bunch of time doing a bunch of stuff. I have some ideas. Why don't you listen to me? Because I've spent a bunch of time thinking about this. That is what the client is buying. The client is not buying you writing 500 words.

[B]

Yeah. Cool. You know, I just realized that the question in the first place was it's almost like if I kind of put higher the bar of a good EEC that I can do. So it's almost like if I know more ways of how an EEC could perform well. And I, I'm curious to know first of all if that was a good way, which it seems like it is. And in, in the second place, if, like how to, to, to incorporate all of these things in, in one. But I guess it's practice. Practice.

[A]

Yeah, that's, that's all it is I for, for everyone here. Some of my first ghostwriting clients back in 2016 was me going to really successful CEOs and saying, you should write on Quora. Quora was a completely unknown platform. I had like a thousand, two thousand followers. And I was like, I'm getting a lot of views on this platform. I think you should too. Every single person I talked to said, I've never heard of Quora in my entire life. And then they would poke around and they'd get hit with a bunch of weird questions because it's a question answer platform. And they'd be like, this seems really weird. Like I don't know who would use this platform. I explained it to them. I was like, I think this is a pretty cool opportunity. I'm seeing success here. I've figured out how to get a bunch of views on my writing. I think this could be an interesting jump off point for you. I closed like 200 clients writing on Quora and then we added in Medium and then we added in LinkedIn articles when those first came out. Then we added in other things over time. But like, I am such, I'm such a big believer in this because I, I lived it. Is the more that you practice on yourself, what people are ultimately buying with marketing is they're either going to go spend a lot of time and money trying things on their own or they're going to go spend some money working with someone who spent time figuring out things on their own. That's all marketing is. There is no right answer in marketing. If there was, I promise you, I would be sitting in a room by myself pressing that button over and over and over again and just buying yachts. Right? Like there, there is no. If you do this, it's a hundred percent guaranteed and if you do this, it's, it doesn't. Right. Like that doesn't exist. So what people are buying in marketing is trying things. Which is why for all of you, like so much of the value is listening to what we talk about. But then you going and trying things on your own and then you're like, yeah, I figured out this really cool thing and then go sell that. You know, like it's not any more complicated than that.

[B]

Yeah, so true. I just realized that I could probably after the five days of the email course, like put like more days to answer one of these questions that it can be like an objection or something else add value afterwards. So yeah, we'll try that. Thank you.

[A]

Awesome. It's a great question and I hope this is helpful for a lot of other people here, too, because the, there's a lot of different ways about thinking about both EECs, but also just writing in general, but also marketing in general. And so I, I do think it's helpful going back and forth and, and looking through the different lenses and understanding, like, why, why are we approaching it the way that we're approaching it? So thanks, Brian. Great question.

[B]

Thank you.