The Search for Sheree | Last Man Standing | 10

Summary

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Cold Podcast: "The Search for Sheree" – Episode 10: "Last Man Standing"

Date: April 17, 2023
Host: Dave Cawley

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Episode Overview

This episode of Cold pivots on the evolving investigation into Sheree Warren’s 1985 disappearance, now seen through the lens of fading memories, advancing age, lost evidence, and the narrowing possibilities for justice. With Sheree’s estranged husband Chuck Warren rendered incapacitated by dementia and the controversial release and refusal to cooperate from prime suspect Kerry Hartman, the case stands on the brink of being unsolvable. Host Dave Cawley methodically reviews the remaining evidence, scenarios, and ethical dilemmas—highlighting the persistent efforts of law enforcement, the frustration of unresolved answers, and the personal costs of domestic violence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kerry Hartman's Life After Prison & Community Response

• Kerry Hartman's Return: After serving 32 years for rape and sexual assault, Hartman returns to Ogden, Utah, staying in his old neighborhood, reaching out to past acquaintances (starting at 01:22).
• Community Reaction: Former friends Dave Moore and Brent Morgan express deep discomfort and sever ties. Even Hartman's mother, who died believing in his innocence, and his supportive father, have since passed.
  • Quote: “To be honest with you, I didn’t believe he did it until he was convicted.” — Dave Moore (02:03)
  • Quote: “His mother went to her grave believing that he was innocent.” — Brent Morgan (04:41)

2. Sheree’s Family and the Ongoing Investigation

• Family’s Longing: Sheree’s father, Ed Sorenson, expresses longing for answers, yet doubt he’ll ever know the truth (05:21).
• Active Investigation: Detective John Frawley persists with the cold case, motivated by meeting Sheree’s family.
  • Quote: “Kind of sobering feeling that this family, they didn’t get any answers.” — John Frawley (06:34)

3. Polygraph & Law Enforcement Strategy

• Polygraph Administered: Hartman, under parole, fails a polygraph test about Sheree’s disappearance—though the specifics are withheld from public access.
  • Quote: “And he did fail that polygraph test.” — John Frawley (08:56)
  • Quote: “It shows deception.” — John Frawley (09:29)
• Limitations: Despite failing the polygraph, both Hartman and Chuck Warren remain persons of interest due to insufficient direct evidence (09:51).

4. Chuck Warren’s Diminished Capacity & Life

• Dementia Diagnosis: Chuck Warren's cognitive decline renders him legally and functionally incapable of providing further information or standing trial (13:21).
  • Quote: “Chuck’s dementia meant whatever he might have known about Cherie’s disappearance was locked away where even he couldn’t get to it.” — Dave Cawley (13:36)

5. A Rare Offer: Immunity to Kerry Hartman

• Immunity Proposal: In 2021, investigator Steve Haney offers Hartman full transactional immunity for the location of Sheree’s remains—even if Hartman is the murderer. Hartman declines the offer (18:14).
  • Quote: “A literal get out of jail free card for Kerry Hartman…he wouldn’t face any consequences.” — Dave Cawley (18:42)

6. Host Attempts Direct Interview with Hartman

• Reporter’s Efforts: Dave Cawley leaves a letter and transcript at Hartman’s door; Hartman, wary and behind a nearly closed door, refers Cawley to his attorney and refuses comment (23:37).
  • Quote: “No, I don’t have anything to say.” — Kerry Hartman (23:39)

7. Debate: Has Hartman ‘Paid His Debt’?

• Law & Morality: Former officers and prosecutors disagree on whether Hartman, having served lengthy sentences, has "paid his debt"—especially given the suspicion of involvement in Sheree’s disappearance (25:24, 26:26).
  • “He has done more time for the rapes than he would for a manslaughter.” — Jack Bell (25:24)
  • “I don’t feel like he’s done his time.” — Jack Bell (26:26)
  • “If he had been convicted at the same time of homicide and the rape cases, he probably wouldn’t have spent any more time than he spent.” — Reed Richards (26:49)

8. Complexity of Prosecuting Decades-Old Cases

• Legal Hurdles: Even if Hartman were tried for Sheree’s murder now, much of the previous bad acts (including rapes) could be inadmissible; without a body or direct evidence, conviction would be highly unlikely (27:29).
  • Quote: “You could make an argument Kerry’s already received punishment for a crime he’s not been charged with. Would that mean Kerry no longer bears responsibility if he killed Cherie Warren?” — Dave Cawley (27:03)

9. Speculative Reconstruction: How Did Sheree Disappear?

• Possible Scenario: Cawley reconstructs a hypothesis where Sheree might have come to Hartman’s place on the night of her disappearance, their confrontation turns fatal, and Hartman, using his knowledge of local land and a three-wheeler ATV, hides her remains in the remote wilds behind Causey, with later efforts to further obscure their location (31:08 to 45:20).
  • Quote: “It’s possible a single blow could have knocked her unconscious or even killed her.” — Dave Cawley (33:51)
• Experiment: Cawley tests whether it’s feasible to move a body using an ATV in the terrain—finding that yes, with effort and a second person, it would be possible, and the landscape is so vast and wild, discovering remains is extremely unlikely (46:38–49:33).

10. Warning Against Confirmation Bias

• Investigator’s Regret: Retired detective Jack Bell recounts how his focus on a seemingly promising suspect in a bank robbery led him astray, reminding Cawley (and the audience) to avoid tunnel vision (55:00).
  • Quote: “Be careful about what you think you know. Don’t let your theories get too far in front of your facts.” — Dave Cawley, reflecting (56:27)

11. The Slowly Closing Window for Justice

• Passing of Time: With Chuck Warren deceased (2022) and Sheree’s father also gone, memories and opportunities for resolution dwindle; police appeal for any previously silent witnesses to come forward (63:08).
  • Quote: “So, yes, the clock is ticking. Absolutely.” — John Frawley (63:17)

12. The Blame of Victims and Societal Failing

• Host’s Reflection: Cawley denounces victim blaming, stressing that Sheree’s choices do not excuse the violence inflicted on her and illustrating the grim realities of how domestic abuse escalates (66:39).
  • Quote: “We have to stop doing that. Stop putting the blame on women when they are lied to, manipulated or abused by the people who are supposed to love them.” — Dave Cawley (66:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Polygraph Failure:
  • “And he did fail that polygraph test.” — John Frawley (08:56)
  • “It shows deception.” — John Frawley (09:29)
• Immunity Offer:
  • “A literal get out of jail free card for Kerry Hartman…he wouldn’t face any consequences.” — Dave Cawley (18:42)
• Caution on Detective Work:
  • “Be careful about what you think you know. Don’t let your theories get too far in front of your facts.” — Dave Cawley (56:27)
  • “None of us like to fail. And I feel like I failed.” — Jack Bell (57:46)
• The Tragedy of Lost Opportunity:
  • “Chuck's dementia meant whatever he might have known about Cherie's disappearance was locked away where even he couldn't get to it.” — Dave Cawley (13:36)
• Host Reflection on Victim Blaming:
  • “We have to stop doing that. Stop putting the blame on women when they are lied to, manipulated or abused by the people who are supposed to love them…” — Dave Cawley (66:39)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Hartman’s Release, Community Response: 01:22–04:47
• Detective Frawley’s Motivation/Ongoing Investigation: 05:21–07:02
• Polygraph and Law Enforcement Roadblocks: 07:09–09:29
• Dual Suspect Dilemma – Chuck & Kerry: 09:51–10:13
• Chuck Warren’s Decline & Legal Implications: 11:48–13:36
• Immunity Offer to Kerry Hartman: 18:14–19:00
• Reporter’s Attempt to Interview Hartman: 23:37–24:02
• Debate: Has Hartman Paid His Debt?: 25:24–26:49
• Prosecution Hurdles in Cold Cases: 26:49–28:27
• Host’s Scenario of Sheree’s Disappearance: 31:08–45:20
• ATV Experiment – Feasibility of Hiding Remains: 46:38–49:33
• Jack Bell Warns Against Tunnel Vision: 55:00–56:27
• Clock Ticking & Window for Justice Closing: 63:08–63:47
• Host’s Reflection on Victim Blaming: 66:39–67:30

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Episode Tone & Language

The episode balances investigative detachment and journalistic rigor with moments of deep empathy and frustration. Cawley’s narration is methodical, respectful, and transparent—frequently spotlighting the uncertainties and limitations of both the evidence and the justice system, while never losing sight of the humanity of the victim and those affected by the case.

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Summary for New Listeners

If you haven’t heard this episode, expect a layered exploration into both the facts and emotional truths surrounding Sheree Warren’s unsolved disappearance:

• The decline and deaths of key witnesses and suspects leave only one suspect—Kerry Hartman—who, despite significant circumstantial evidence (including a failed polygraph and failed alibis), cannot be brought to justice without new information or evidence.
• Investigators wrestle with the limitations of the justice system and their own fallibility.
• The host deconstructs standard narratives blaming victims and emphasizes the importance of recognizing systemic issues around domestic violence.
• The case serves as a broader reflection on how time, memory, and legal standards can blunt even the sharpest efforts to seek answers for the missing and murdered.

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If you have information about the Sheree Warren case, please contact Roy City Police—the podcast team and law enforcement continue to seek closure and justice for Sheree and her family.

Transcript

[Dave Cawley]

This season of the Cold podcast includes descriptions of rape, sexual assault, murder and domestic violence. Please take care in listening. The world had gone into lockdown. COVID 19, had exploded into a full blown pandemic. Schools and businesses were shuttered. Streets in cities across the United States were eerily quiet. It was the spring of 20, but at least one business in Ogden, Utah remained open. Dave Moore's sewing machine repair shop. Dave and his brother, who co owned the business, were trying to keep up with a sudden surge in demand for their services.

[Dave Moore]

We were extremely busy when Covid broke out because everyone was staying home making masks.

[Dave Cawley]

Dave's shop is still located right where it had been in October of 1985 on the night when Cherie Warren had disappeared. The bar on the other side of the parking lot where Dave had gone for a drink with his friend Ker Hartman that night was still there too. But it had changed names and owners several times over the decades. There's a small office tucked in the back of Dave's shop. Dave was working in the office one day that spring of 2020 when he heard someone come through the door onto the sales floor.

[Dave Moore]

My brother was down on the floor and Carrie came in and my brother's not real fond of Carrie, said, let me see if he'll see you. So he came up and I just walked down real briefly, said, hi, you know, what are you doing? And he basically gave me this story that he was living in a halfway house and somebody donated a bed and a small TV to him. And that was basically the conversation.

[Dave Cawley]

A modest new beginning for Kerry Hartman. Kerry had just returned to ogden after spending 32 years in prison. Dave had struggled over those years to reconcile the charming Carrie he had once known with. With the secretive man Kerry had revealed himself to be.

[Dave Moore]

To be honest with you, I didn't believe he did it until he was convicted.

[Dave Cawley]

They'd remained in contact for a while, but fell out of touch during the 90s. Years later, Dave wrote a letter to.

[Dave Moore]

Kerry just to see how he was doing, just to see what, what the situation was. And I basically wanted to know what's wrong with you, you know.

[Dave Cawley]

Carrie had not responded. So when Carrie dropped in unannounced on Dave at work in early 2020, Dave hadn't felt too eager to renew their old friendship.

[Dave Moore]

Yeah, we both changed.

[Dave Cawley]

Carrie and Dave had been together at the bar on the evening of Cherie Warren's disappearance almost 35 years earlier. Kerry had tried to use Dave as an alibi. So it's interesting, one of the first things Carrie did after getting out of prison was was check up on his old friend. Kerry had told the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole before leaving prison he had anticipated a tough transition. I know there's going to be rejection when I go out there in one form or another. Now when I can't handle that, that's a risky situation for me. I know who I can call to say, whoa, my self esteem is in the dirt. I wonder if Kerry's self esteem took a hit when he realized he could no longer count Dave Moore as a friend. Another old friend of Kerry's, Brent Morgan, the taxidermist, told me he also wants nothing to do with Carrie, which is saying something because Brent and Kerry grew up together.

[Brent Morgan]

If you go back to friends, I can remember him the farthest back because of the association of my parents and his parents.

[Dave Cawley]

Carrie had written letters to Brent's mom for years after his conviction. And Carrie's own mother, Donna Hartman, had kept in touch with the Morgans as well.

[Brent Morgan]

Donna was always after mom and myself to go and visit him. And there was a couple of times I thought about it and I just didn't want to. Didn't want to.

[Dave Cawley]

Carrie's mom, Donna Hartman, had attended her son's parole board hearings. She had heard him say under oath he had lied to his family about being innocent. I was in denial. I couldn't face up to what I had done. I was racked with guilt and shame. But Brent Morgan told me Kerry had privately held to a different story. He hadn't raped anyone and was only admitting to the crimes because otherwise the parole board would never let him out of prison. Donna Hartman died in 2013.

[Brent Morgan]

His mother went to her grave believing that he was innocent.

[Dave Cawley]

Kerry's dad, Bill Hartman, had defended his son from the start. He had paid Kerry's bail, put up his own money to fund DNA testing, and also attended his son's parole board hearings. But Bill Hartman didn't live to see Kerry regain his freedom either. Bill died in January of 2020, just two months shy of Carey's release from prison. Cherie Warren's friend and former co worker Pam Volk hadn't realized Carrie was free when she and I met a year and a half later. Is he out?

[Reed Richards]

Yes.

[Dave Cawley]

I didn't know he was out. That honestly makes me a little nervous. Okay, well, interesting. And he lives in Ogden? Yeah, he does. I know because I paid Kerry Hartman a visitor myself. This is cold. Season 3 Episode 10 Last Man Standing From KSL Podcasts, I'm Dave Cawley. Cherie Warren's dad, Ed Sorenson, told Salt Lake City TV station KTVX in 2019 he hoped to someday learn what happened to Cherie. Sure, I'd love to know what happened, but I don't think we'll ever find out. Roy City police were at the time actively investigating Cherie's disappearance. The cold case remained in the hands of detective John Frawley, who still has the case today. John told me meeting Cherie's family had changed his perspective.

[John Frawley]

Kind of sobering feeling that this family, they didn't get any answers.

[Dave Cawley]

Those conversations were driving John and his fellow detectives to keep digging. They wanted to at last be able to tell Cherie's dad, Ed Sorenson, they were bringing his daughter home.

[John Frawley]

I don't know how to explain that other than we want answers just as much as anyone else. It's important.

[Dave Cawley]

John had come to believe Kerry Hartman held those answers, and he had wanted to ask Kerry about it.

[John Frawley]

I went down to the prison twice, and then I met with him at apnp, so three times.

[Dave Cawley]

APNP is short for adult probation and parole. It's a state agency in Utah responsible for supervising people after they are released from prison. John told me these interactions with Kerry hadn't proved very fruitful.

[John Frawley]

You know, I've been in a room with some, with some interesting people during this career, and he's one of them. It's just very different.

[Dave Cawley]

We've heard several people over the course of this season describe Kerry as having two personalities. He could come across as debonair or devilish, depending on the moment. John didn't tell me which Kerry he encountered. Kerry's release hadn't come without strings. He had to abide by conditions set by the parole board.

[John Frawley]

As part of his parole agreement, he was mandated to submit to random polygraph.

[Dave Cawley]

A lie detector about whatever police wanted to ask him about. Random polygraphs are a standard condition of parole in felony sex offense cases in Utah. The results aren't typically admissible as evidence in court, but they can help investigators figure out if they are on the right track. Kerry Hartman had never taken a lie detector test about his relationship with Cherie Warren. He might end up back in prison on a parole violation if he refused to cooperate. Now John Frawley had Kerry in a corner. Oh, man. Yeah.

[John Frawley]

He does not. He's not happy with me.

[Dave Cawley]

John called in an FBI agent with decades of experience as a polygraph examiner. The agent sat, carried down and asked him a series of questions about Cherie's disappearance.

[John Frawley]

And he did fail that polygraph test.

[Dave Cawley]

Spectacularly, or so I have heard Roy Police have refused to give me any records related to the polygraph. The FBI won't even acknowledge such a report exists, which would be comical if it wasn't so frustrating. This put John in something of a tight spot. He's told me the polygraph report is important, but he's also not at liberty to discuss it in detail. He could only give me this three word summary without getting into trouble.

[John Frawley]

It shows deception.

[Dave Cawley]

Kerry's performance at the polygraph went so poorly, it made John rethink his entire take on the Sherry Warren case. From that point forward, he no longer saw Chuck Warren as his prime suspect. I asked John if that was so, why hadn't he just arrested Carrie?

[John Frawley]

It doesn't give me what I need because I have two persons of interest.

[Dave Cawley]

Chuck Warren's unwillingness or inability to provide a clear story about where he had been after Cherie disappeared meant John couldn't completely count Chuck out.

[John Frawley]

Yep, the two persons of interest are still Charles Warren and Kerry Hartman.

[Dave Cawley]

Chuck Warren never showed much interest in what had happened to his estranged wife Cherie in 1985. He had just moved on with his life. In the last episode, we heard Roy police Detective John Frawley's 2015 interview with Chuck.

[Chuck Warren]

You say you can't remember too much, but you know you're doing pretty good. You're bringing it up. I can remember a few things.

[Dave Cawley]

John had asked Chuck about Carrie Hartman.

[Chuck Warren]

Did you know about him at the time? I mean, did you know that she was dating him or. I can't remember. Can't remember that. Yeah. I just can't remember. She. Okay. When he got arrested, it seemed like. Then I heard something about that she been dating. That she had been dating. I think that's how I found out. But I don't know. She never said anything to me about it. Okay. And I never asked. Right. You know, because I was dating a lot of girls at the time. Right.

[Dave Cawley]

In case you didn't catch that, Chuck said he had been dating a lot of girls when Sharia disappeared. But we also know Chuck had reunited with his first wife Alice during that same period. By the time of John Frawley's Interview with Chuck 30 years later, Chuck was living with his third wife, a woman named Willow. She had sat by Chuck's side while John questioned him. Willow had interjected at one point, saying she wasn't surprised to hear Chuck had acted unconcerned when Cherie didn't show up looking for her son on the night of her disappearance.

[Chuck Warren]

He's been a pretty Easy going guy, too. So when she didn't actually come pick him up at that time, he probably wasn't too worried about it. She'd be there eventually.

[Dave Cawley]

The first time I heard this audio recording, I thought Chuck and Willow shared an odd dynamic. Chuck and Willow had lived together for about 10 years, but had only been married a year or so at the time of the interview. And they didn't stay married long. Three years later, in 2018, Chuck filed for divorce. Court records show Willow tried to lay claim to a lot of Chuck's property, including stuff he had bought well before they had married. Willow also refused to move out of Chuck's house. He twice filed eviction lawsuits against her. She left under protest in early 2020, but didn't stay gone. Willow soon convinced her ex husband, Chuck, to let her back into his heart, his life and his house. You might be wondering who you're supposed to root for in all this. Neither Chuck nor Willow seem very sympathetic. But there's a revelation I found in the court records that puts their squabble in a different context. Chuck filed a third eviction lawsuit against Willow in September of 2020. It says, quote, willow was supposed to help Chuck as he had been diagnosed with dementia. Willow has not been giving Chuck his medications. Looking back, the beginnings of Chuck's mental decline seemed apparent five years earlier during his interview with Detective John Frawley.

[Chuck Warren]

Well, I have trouble remembering how to say different words.

[Dave Cawley]

In the last episode, I told you how. Willow was 27 years younger than Chuck. They had met and moved in together years before the onset of Chuck's memory problems.

[Chuck Warren]

He never used to be like this. How do I do this? How do I do that? Then I get frustrated with it.

[Dave Cawley]

But Willow had only married Chuck in a spur of the moment Las Vegas Elvis Chapel wedding. After Chuck's memory started failing, Willow Hendricks went to court herself. She asked a judge to appoint her as Chuck Warren's legal guardian. That hadn't sat well with Chuck's brother and two sons, one of whom was also Cherie's son. Court records show they intervened, trying to block Willow from taking control of chuck's assets. On February 1, 2021, a judge declared Chuck incapacitated under the legal definition. That meant Chuck could no longer provide for his own protection, health or safety. His ability to evaluate information, make decisions, and provide for the necessities of life were impaired. Chuck's dementia meant whatever he might have known about Cherie's disappearance was locked away where even he couldn't get to it. And if evidence were to somehow Emerge Proving Chuck had killed Cherie. No prosecutor would ever charge him. Chuck wouldn't be able to aid in his own defense or even understand what he was accused of doing. I learned about Chuck's condition early in my research for this season. I realized I wouldn't ever have a chance to interview him. I couldn't in good conscience knowing Chuck lacked the cognitive ability to understand the questions I would ask. And it's a terrible lost opportunity. From February of 2021 onward, Chuck Warren was off limits in the search for answers about Cherie's disappear. A couple of months later, In April of 2021, an investigator for the Weber county attorney's office brought Kerry Hartman to an office in downtown Ogden. The investigator, Steve Haney, introduced Kerry to a criminal defense lawyer named Michael Bowis. Michael was a public defender who had represented thousands of clients over the years. Haney had called both Carrie and Michael here as part of a plan he had concealed. He hoped he might coax Cary into admitting to Cherie Warren's murder by making Kerry an offer he couldn't refuse. What I tell you next has never before been revealed. Steve Haney, the investigator, handed Kerry a letter from the county attorney. It offered Kerry immunity from criminal charges if he revealed the location of Cherie Warren's remains. A promise. Take us to Cherie and we won't charge you with her murder. This is what's known as transactional immunity. It's sometimes used to obtain testimony from witnesses or accomplices. See season two of this podcast for an example. But it's almost never provided to the primary target in a major criminal investigation like this. The the wording of the immunity offer was broad. There were no hidden gotchas. It was a literal get out of jail free card for Carrie Hartman. The letter even said this promise of immunity did not depend on the successful recovery of Cherie's remains. So long as Cary told the truth about what he had done and made a good faith effort to show where he'd left her body, he wouldn't face any consequences. The county attorney had already signed the letter. All it needed to become binding was Carrie's own signature. Kerry, I'm told, seemed suspicious and skeptical. He didn't know Michael Bowis, this lawyer, the cop Haney said was supposed to represent him. Besides, Kerry said he already had his own lawyer, a fact Haney hadn't realized. Kerry called his attorney on the phone. They talked, then informed investigator Steve Haney they needed time to discuss the offer. Kerry then left, taking the immunity letter with him. About a week Later, Steve Haney received a follow up call from Kerry's attorney. The lawyer reportedly said Kerry was not going to accept the immunity offer. But here's the thing. As far as I know, Kerry still has the immunity letter and he could at any time sign it, walk into the Weber County Attorney's office, admit to killing Sherry Warren, and face no consequences. But maybe Kerry doesn't need to do that. After all, why would he need immunity for something he's insisted he didn't do? Maybe Kerry just doesn't like talking to cops. Perhaps he would feel more comfortable speaking with a reporter. Let's find out. The air feels stifling. I sit in the driver's seat of a small Honda crossover pulled into a parking stall at an apartment complex not far from the mouth of Ogden Canyon. It's the same place where Kerry Hartman lived at the time of his arrest in 1987. It's the apartment complex where police had found a gray suede jacket, possibly belonging to Cherie Warren, when they had searched Kerry's unit in the rape investigation. For some reason, Kerry Hartman chose to move back here in 2020 after he left prison following a short stint at a halfway house. I step out of the car and walk toward one of the three story buildings. It's the start of May 2021, and Utah's experiencing a spring swelter. Air conditioners whir as I pass by. I look at the numbers on the doors, counting up until I find the right one, stop and knock. No answer. I look at the unit number again, comparing it to Kerry's public listing in the Utah Sex Offender Registry. It's the right place, I'm sure. But Kerry doesn't seem to be home. Or at least he doesn't answer the door. I expected this, and I've come prepared with a pen and notepad. What is Our date today? May 5th.

[Chuck Warren]

Cinco de Mayo.

[Dave Cawley]

That's the voice of my boss, Cheryl Worsley, who's joining me on this outing. Alright, let's see. What do we want to say here? Mr. Kerry Hartman. This isn't the first letter I've written to Kerry. I'd reached out to him once before when he was still incarcerated. At that time I was researching the murder of Joyce Yost. For season two of this podcast. I had come across the recording of William Babble, AKA Charlie, the FBI informant. We heard from him back in episode six. I was in a therapy group with Kerry Hartman, and I know Kerry Hartman's story very well. William Babel had told the FBI Kerry Hartman killed Cherie Warren. But Babble later switched up his story and told a South Ogden police detective a different guy. Doug Lovell, killed Cherie. He was afraid he was going to get questioned in a rape, kidnap, murder.

[John Frawley]

Somebody named Cherie Warren.

[Dave Cawley]

I had wanted to know what Kerry made of Babel's contradictory claims. Was William Babel a liar? But Cary never responded to my first letter. So this is why I'm standing at Kerry's door. I'm carrying a transcript of the William Babel police interview with me as I knock at Kerry's apartment. When he doesn't answer, I tuck the transcript behind his screen door along with the following note. Mr. Kerry Hartman? My name is Dave Cawley. I'm a reporter with ksl. I previously wrote you while you were still incarcerated, hoping to set up an interview regarding a story I was working on about the Joyce Yost case. I never heard back, but would still like an opportunity to speak with you. I will be publishing a story next week that includes a claim Doug Lovell had some involvement with the disappearance of another woman whom you knew, Sheree Warren. I've included a copy of a police interview with a prison informant named William Babble. I'd love to hear your thoughts about what William had to say. I look forward to hearing from you, Dave Colley. There you go. So be it. Then Cheryl and I walk back to our car and crank up the ac. I'm about to put the car in reverse when I glance at the rear view mirror and freeze. Act cool, I say to Cheryl, but take a look to our left as she does. I reach down and switch off the ignition. So we're sitting in the car outside Kerry Hartman's apartment, having just left a note in his door telling him that we wanted to speak with him and Cheryl. What happened?

[Chuck Warren]

And he pulls up, backs into a.

[Dave Cawley]

Parking spot, and we're like, we think that's him? Yeah. I recognized the car driving past in the rear view being a Chevy Avalanche, which is what was listed as one of his vehicles on the Utah Sex Offender Registry. And you watched him get out?

[Chuck Warren]

Yep. It looks like it's him. So we're going to give him a second to get our note and we'll try again.

[Dave Cawley]

Give him a door knock. Yep. We decide five minutes seems fair enough. Time to read the letter and skim the transcript. We wait, watching the clock, then go knock on Kerry Hartman's door a second time. The door opens just a crack. I can see the lights are off inside. It's dark cave, like as if blackout curtains cover all the windows. But enough light shines through the crack in the door to illuminate a face I recognize in the shadows.

[Chuck Warren]

Hey, Terry.

[Dave Cawley]

Hey, Polly from ksl. I left you a note, but then I saw you pulling in as we were getting ready to leave. Can I talk to you for just a second? No, I don't have anything to say. Okay. Oh, who's your attorney? I'd be happy to reach out Jonathan Porter tonight, sir. Jonathan Porter. Okay. Thanks, sir.

[Chuck Warren]

Thank you.

[Dave Cawley]

Got it. And that's the entirety of my communication with Kerry Hartman. It struck me as odd Kerry had referred me to his attorney. At the time, I wasn't aware Weber county had offered Kerry immunity just a couple of weeks earlier. I did reach out to Kerry's attorney, by the way, but I received no response. Carrie Hartman won't talk to. I did talk to former Ogden police detective Chris Zimmerman, the guy who had made the rape case against Kerry in 1987. Around the same time I went to knock on Kerry Hartman's door. Zimmerman told me he believes Kerry's paid his debt to society and deserves a chance to prove he is a changed man. Zimmerman's position surprised me. He's not someone I expected would show Cary much sympathy. Zimmerman's notes and reports include a lot of detail about what Carrie reportedly did to his suspected victims back in in the 80s. I haven't shared all of what's in them, mostly to avoid being salacious and to protect the innocent from additional trauma. Zimmerman declined my request for an on the record interview, but I shared what he told me with former Roy police detective Jack Bell, the original investigator on Sheree Warren's disappearance.

[Jack Bell]

What Zimmerman said about him doing his time is true because he has done more time for the rapes than he would for a manslaughter.

[Dave Cawley]

Kerry had spent 32 years in prison, more than double the 15 year minimum on his sentence. Over the course of this season, we've heard how the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole kept Kerry in for a few reasons. They included Kerry's own refusal to accept responsibility for what he had done.

[Chuck Warren]

There is tremendous repression and denial going on. How strongly that therapy would be completely a waste of time until there's a change of your perception.

[Dave Cawley]

The parole board had at times feared Kerry might revert to his past behaviors. And there was the matter of Kerry's possible involvement in the disappearance of Sherry Warren. But in the end, the parole board decided to send Kerry back out into society. Jack Bell told me he doesn't believe Kerry Hartman's squared his debts.

[Jack Bell]

No I don't feel like he's done his time.

[Dave Cawley]

I also asked former Weber County Attorney Reed Richards, the prosecutor who had first put Kerry away, if he believes Kerry's paid his debts.

[Reed Richards]

Well, that's an interesting discussion, and I don't know that I have an opinion on it.

[Dave Cawley]

Reid said he had felt surprised, not that the parole board let Kerry out, but instead that it kept Kerry in as long as it did. Why so?

[Reed Richards]

Well, because it was 15 alive, so generally people were doing 15 years and getting out. But I can say that if he had been convicted at the same time of homicide and the rape cases, he probably wouldn't have spent any more time than he spent.

[Dave Cawley]

You could make an argument Kerry's already received punishment for a crime he's not been charged with. Would that mean Kerry no longer bears responsibility if he killed Cherie Warren?

[Reed Richards]

And I guess the other question is, what would a court do with it anyway, you know, if you were to convict him now, he's probably, what, 75 or so?

[Dave Cawley]

Kerry is 74 years old at the time I'm recording this.

[Reed Richards]

Yeah. So what are they going to do with him?

[Dave Cawley]

If prosecutors today charged Kerry Hartman with Cherie Warren's murder, based on the evidence at hand, and if that case went to trial and you ended up on the jury, odds are you wouldn't hear a word about lingerie survey phone calls, the Ogden City Rapist investigation, or the lies Kerry told the parole board over the years. Courts operate under rules of evidence. Those rules spell out what kind of information prosecutors can use to try and prove their case. The stuff I just mentioned would likely not be allowed because it doesn't directly tie into Sherry Warne's disappearance. And even if it did, a judge might still not allow it because of the risk it could prejudice the jury against Kerry. This explains why the Weber County Attorney's office offered Kerry Hartman immunity. They were willing to give up on ever charging Carrie if it meant they might recover Cherie's remains for her family.

[Reed Richards]

Like with any person who's lost a loved one, to have the body and know where the grave is is pretty important. So, yeah, I think there's value in doing that, even if you don't prosecute.

[Dave Cawley]

But as we heard, Carrie rejected the immunity offer.

[Reed Richards]

I'm not sure where you go at this point unless you find the body somewhere. And even if you find the body, that doesn't necessarily tell you who killed her.

[Dave Cawley]

That would depend on where. We have two likely Chuck Warren or Kerry Hartman finding Cherie Warren's remains somewhere in the Desert partway between Ogden and Las Vegas wouldn't directly tie her death to either of them. On the other hand, finding Cherie's remains buried in the backyard of Chuck's house would clearly point toward him. Finding her remains on the mountain behind Causey Reservoir would point to Kerrie. Most of my attention has so far focused on Causie because we have a confluence of evidence all pointing that direction. It's near where Kerry Hartman lured Heidi Poznine at the start of our story. It's where his friends owned land and liked to hunt. It's where the elk hunting guide Fred Johns spotted Carrie four days after she disappeared. And it's where an anonymous caller reported finding a woman's body.

[Chuck Warren]

I'm reporting a body that I found.

[Dave Cawley]

Remains that to this day have not been located. Let's imagine that changed. Pretend somebody found Cherie's remains on the mountain behind Causey where the elk hunting guide sighted Kerry Hartman. How would we then interpret everything we have learned so far this season? I'm now going to walk you through a step by step of what Sheree Warren's murder could have looked like. Based on the evidence and witness testimony we have gathered, there are gaps which I will bridge with some speculation. Keep in mind I'm not saying this is what did happen. I am saying it's one possible explanation of what could have happened. On the evening of October 2, 1985, Cherie Warren walked out of an office building in Salt Lake City. She told Richard Moss, the man she'd been training, she was headed to Wagstaff Toyota to pick up her estranged husband. It was about 6:25 that we finally balanced and left the office. We got to the parking lot. She went to the west. I went north. But Cherie's husband, Chuck Warren, wasn't waiting for her at Wagstaff. He had changed his plans at the last minute and decided not to take his Toyota Supra from his home in Ogden to the dealership in Salt Lake City.

[Chuck Warren]

I remember calling her to tell her I wasn't coming around.

[Dave Cawley]

That same time, Carrie Hartman dropped in at his friend Dave Moore's shop in Ogden. Carrie suggested they go grab a couple drinks at a bar across the way. Carrie and Dave spent a couple hours at the bar from about 6 to between 8 and 9pm so Carrie was at the bar when Cherie left her work 40 miles south in Salt Lake City. Cherie would have headed toward Ogden either straight from work or after realizing Chuck wasn't waiting for her at Wagstaff Toyota. Given the drive Time. Cherie would have arrived in the ogden area around 7:30pm at the earliest. Her daily routine was to meet Chuck at the Denny's restaurant just off the I15 freeway in re Roy. But she had been late getting out of work, so I don't know if she would have gone there or not. On this particular night, she didn't have a cell phone, making it difficult to change plans on the fly. Chuck wasn't at that Denny's in any case. He later told police he had gone out for that jog.

[Chuck Warren]

Yeah, I was out jogging. That's what I was doing.

[Dave Cawley]

Maybe Sheree stopped at the Denny's in Roy looking for Chuck. We know she didn't go home because her mom, Mary Sorenson, said Cherie never showed up for dinner. Everything I have heard about Cherie suggests her top priority would have been picking up her son. So I believe she would have headed toward Chuck's house. If you today ask your phone for directions from Roy to Chuck's house in Ogden. It will route you up Ogden's 7th Street. That's where Kennedy Hartman lived at the time. Give a little more drive time to get from Roy to Ogden and we see Cherie could have driven past Kerry's basement apartment around 8pm or a little after. That's around the same time Kerry's friend Dave Moore told me they had left the bar. Meaning Carrie could have already been home by the time Cherie hypothetically drove past his place. She could have seen his yellow truck parked in the driveway at the top of the stairs that lead down into the basement. The two women who had lived above Carrie, the teachers, Kay, Lynn and Mary, later told police they believed Cherie had stopped there that night. They told Detective John Frawley they had overheard a loud argument.

[John Frawley]

And the argument was Cherie had found out Kerry Hartman was dating someone else. And during this argument they heard a loud thud. And then Kerry Hartman cusses and then they don't hear anything after that.

[Dave Cawley]

Kerry had a history of using physical force against his romantic partners. He outweighed Cherie by at least 50 pounds. It's possible a single blow could have knocked her unconscious or even killed her. I can imagine Carrie then in a panic, wondering who else knew Cherie was at his place. Cherie's mom, Mary Sorenson, told police Carrie had called her around 8pm Kerry had asked where Cherie was. She told Carrie Cherie had intended to meet Chuck at the car dealership then come home for dinner. But Cherie hadn't showed up yet. As far as we know, Mary didn't say anything to Carrie about Cherie having plans to stop off at Carrie's apartment that night. So Carrie would have presumably known he was safe, at least for a little while. After hanging up with Mary, Cary could have wrapped Cherie in his black parka before taking her up the stairs from the basement apartment and placing her in his truck. Where to then? He would have needed somewhere dark and remote. Maybe Lost Creek, where Kerry had spent time deer hunting with his brother and cop buddies in the past. Lost Creek was an hour and a half drive away, most of it on the interstate. Too far and too risky. How about Causey? The secluded confines of Causey estates were only 45 minutes from Ogden. The route along Utah State Highway 39 was wound through dark canyons, and Kerry knew his way around Kazi Estates. He had spent time there with friends like the taxidermist Brent Morgan.

[Brent Morgan]

There was a locked gate.

[Dave Cawley]

Brent just happened to have loaned Kerry his key to the gate at Causey Estates a couple of weeks earlier. Once he's passed the gate to get into Causey Estates, he can go up top.

[Brent Morgan]

That's correct. That's correct.

[Dave Cawley]

There is no proof Kerry visited Causey Estates on the night of Cherie's disappearance. This is speculative and you should treat what I say here with due skepticism. I don't think it's likely Kerry would have spent too long at Causey Estates if he had gone there that night. It's not likely he would have gone all the way up the mountain. Because in this hypothetical scenario, Cherie's car would have still been sitting on the street outside his place in Ogden. Every second it remained there, he would have been exposed. He would have needed a quick but safe drop site.

[Brent Morgan]

The thing you gotta understand about Kerry is he's lazy. You know, he's not gonna do anything that's too hard.

[Dave Cawley]

Kerry had spent the first part of that evening at the bar with his friend Dave Moore. And Dave had owned a lot in Kazi Estates at the time. Pretty quiet back in those days.

[Dave Moore]

It was real quiet.

[Dave Cawley]

Kerry would have known Dave's lot at Cossey Estates was unoccupied that night, making it a safe place to temporarily stash Cherie. Carrie could have driven from his apartment in Ogden to Dave Moore's lot in Cossey Estates and been back home before 11pm Cherie's mom, Mary Sorenson, told police she had received a second call from Kerry on the night of cherie's disappearance. Between 10 and 11, he had again asked if Cherie had made it home. Mary had said no. In this hypothetical scenario, Carrie could have made this second call to Mary Sorensen after returning from dropping Cherie's body, using it to bolster his story. He hadn't seen Cherie at all that night. Next, Carrie would have needed to get rid of Cherie's car. He would have taken her keys and gone out to her Toyota Corolla. Chuck Warren liked to go to Las Vegas. He had honeymooned there more than once. His brother told me Chuck had gone to Vegas regularly. It seems plausible Cherie might have shared that detail with Kerry. If so, it's conceivable Kerry might have chosen to take Cherie's car to Vegas as part of an effort to frame Chuck. If Kerry had driven through the night, he could have arrived in Las Vegas just before sunrise. A quick jog to the airport, a false name at the ticket counter and a breeze through the pre 911 security process could have put Kerry on a plane and back in Salt Lake City by 9:30am he would have then needed to get from Salt Lake to Ogden. A taxicab's one possibility, but I don't think someone sneaking home from from dumping murder evidence in another state would want to leave a random cab driver as a witness if it could be avoided. A trusted friend or relative seems more likely to me, but to my knowledge, no one's ever come forward to say they picked Carrie up at the airport. That's one major hole in this hypothetical scenario. Cherie's mom, Mary Sorenson, reported her daughter missing to Roy police around noon on October 3rd, the day after Cherie's disappearance. Her report landed on the desk of Detective Jack Bell. Jack at first tried to get a hold of Chuck Warren but couldn't find him. Jacket then turned his attention to Carrie, placing a call to carry around 2:30pm Kerry would later claim he called Jack, not the other way around. Kerry said he made that call from work, but his time card told a different story. It said Kerry had taken that day off. In any case, Kerry had arrived at Roy police headquarters around 2:45. He had told Jack he had gone to the bar with his friend Dave Moore the prior evening. Carrie had said he hadn't realized Cherie was missing until that morning when he had supposedly talked to her mom on the phone. This contradicted what Mary Sorensen described about getting two phone calls from Kerry the night prior. In this first interaction between Kerry Hartman and Jack Bell, Cary didn't say Cherie was supposed to be waiting for him at his basement apartment while Carrie was at the bar. That implausible story came later. The first newspaper report of Shuri's disappearance published the next day, Friday, Two days after Cherie was last seen leaving her work. Carrie's upstairs neighbors saw the article and recalled the loud fight they had heard. One of them, Mary, taped a sympathy note to Carrie's door. Carrie responded by grilling Mary about whether she had seen Cherie at the house at any point during the last couple days. He had been so convincing about how he felt about losing her. Those are Mary's words from her written statement read by a voice actor. He told us at that time that he was sure it was her ex husband. The next day, on Saturday, three days after Cherie was last seen, Carrie dropped by the home of his TV reporter friend, Larry Lewis. He asked Larry to go on a three wheeler ride looking for Cherie's body. They had taken the three wheelers into the foothills above the city. Larry would later say Kerry had said they didn't need to look around Chuck Warren's house because police had already done that. Which wasn't true. Carrie had showed up at gatherings after Cherie disappeared, where her family prayed for her safe return. Detective Shane Minor had talked to people who said Carrie had claimed to be spending all his time searching for Cherie and handing out missing persons flyers.

[Shane Minor]

But then the question is, is he really? Or is that just. He wants people to believe he did.

[Dave Cawley]

Pass some of the flyers around to his friends and even his own brother. But remember, Kerry's upstairs neighbors ended up finding a full box of those flyers abandoned in his closet after he moved out a year following Cherie's disappearance.

[Shane Minor]

It seems like that would be pretty common. You would hear one side from Carrie on what he's doing, who he's doing it with, and everything they're doing. But then when you talk to the person he's referring to, they describe it as quite a bit different. Like none of that was taking place.

[Dave Cawley]

If Carrie had left Sherry Warren's body at Kazi Estates on the night of her disappearance, he might have felt nervous in the days that followed as he put on this ruse of searching for her. It was opening weekend of the annual elk hunt. Kerry would have known many of the cabin owners of Kazi Estates would be headed up the mountain. Kerry might have decided to move Cherie deeper into the backcountry. It's a theory, his former friend, the taxidermist Brent Morgan, told me. Makes sense if he had access up.

[Brent Morgan]

There and could go up and down the roads, you can find the right place where you can 1, 2, 3, heave.

[Dave Cawley]

Hove.

[Brent Morgan]

And it's going to be in a spot where people aren't going to go.

[Dave Cawley]

But it's got to be a place that he can get to, hypothetically get a body to, right?

[Brent Morgan]

That's exactly right. And there are places up there where roads go to those type of areas, but it's a big area.

[Dave Cawley]

Cary at this time still possessed the key for the gate at Kazi Estates he had borrowed from Brent back in episode four. Brent told us he had tried to get his key back, but Cary had dodged him for two days, not wanting to return it. So Kerry could have gone back to Kazi Estates early on Sunday, October 6, four days after Cherie disappeared with his ugly yellow truck and another man, a man who resembled his younger brother Jack. Because this is when the elk hunting guide Fred Johns would later say he saw Kerry Hartman trespassing on private property. Kerry could have retrieved Cherie's body from Qazi Estates and driven farther up onto the mountain behind Qazi to the middle of nowhere. Kerry might have backed his truck into some trees off the side of the primitive dirt road. It would have provided cover as he transferred his payload from the back of his truck to one of his three wheelers. From there, Carrie might have gone off into the brush until he found a protected private place to once again abandon Cherie's body, this time for good. Back in episode four, we met a former Weber county sheriff's detective named Rod Layton. He had led the search for the anonymous caller who had reported finding a body near Causey. I was a lieutenant over investigations division when I left. Rod told me, in his experience, most crimes and most criminals are not complicated. Don't give these people more credit than they deserve for being smart or being motivated, because they're not. Rod said this same logic applies to killers who try to cover their crime by concealing the victim's body. They tend to act irrationally out of fear, and they're not smart and they're lazy. This assumption is common in law enforcement circles and for good reason. It keeps investigators from wasting time on fantastical theories. Keep it simple. Do I think that this guy went up there, you know, carried the body back a mile?

[Chuck Warren]

No.

[Dave Cawley]

But the assumption might break down if your suspected killer is a person who knows. This is how cops tend to think. A person with police training, a person who knows to take that one bit of extra effort. So I'm going to challenge Rod's assumption here because evidence suggests Kerry Hartman had the training, the means, and the mindset. To be an exception to the rule. We've now explored a hypothetical scenario involving Kerry killing Cherie, then later enlisting the help of an accomplishment accomplice to move Shuri's body to a place it wouldn't be found on the mountain behind Kazi. Moving a body is not a trivial task. I wasn't sure if the three wheeled ATVs Kerry owned in 1985 would have been up to the job. If the answer is no, the whole hypothetical falls apart. If the answer is yes, it suggests Cherie's remains could be on that mountain today, in a place where no one's yet bothered to look. I decided to buy a three wheeler and conduct an experiment. I wanted to know if it was feasible for someone to use a machine like the ones Kerry Hartman had owned to move a body off road into the backcountry behind Cause but first, some context.

[Chuck Warren]

It takes two wheels to have some.

[Dave Cawley]

Fun three wheeled ATVs first hit the market at the start of the the seventies. By the eighties, they were exploding in popularity.

[Chuck Warren]

Just try the Honda atc.

[Dave Cawley]

Eleven years ago, Honda invented the ATC three wheeler, and ever since, folks have been inventing new ways to use it. Many hunters today will quarter a deer and haul it out of the forest on a four wheeler, but I didn't know if that would have been so simple with a more primitive three wheeler. Vintage three wheelers are narrower, weigh less, and are more maneuverable than four wheelers. People took them everywhere, cutting new trails and ripping up vegetation. It's mainly the small all terrain cycles, or ATCs that are at the heart of the problem. Popular with kids and adults alike, they're fun to ride and go almost anywhere. They're also dangerous. Most three wheelers didn't have suspension, meaning they couldn't carry as much weight and were rough to ride. They also had a tendency to tip or roll, causing injuries or even death. That's why manufacturers stopped making them in 1987. But you can still buy old ones secondhand, which is what I did. Former South Ogden police Detective Terry Carpenter, who I met while working on the Joyce Yost case in season two of this podcast, was able to secure permission for me to access the private land on the mountain between Causey and Lost Creek reservoirs. The slash in the percent sign Terry and I met at Lost Creek one morning in July of 2022. I unrolled a large map of the area across the tailgate of Terry's truck. So we're going to come up Kilfoyle all the way up to the corral, right? Right. And we're going to hang a left. Our target established, we headed up the mountain. Terry had the key to open the gate. It was a long ride, nearly 15 miles one way from Lost Creek. We came to the spot on the mountain where Fred Johns, the elk hunting guide, had told police he saw Kerry Hartman and another man, possibly Kerry's younger brother, Jack. On the Sunday after Sherry Warren disappeared, Terry Carpenter and I stepped out into the clearing on the ridge. Standing there in the summer sun, I tried to imagine we what reason Carrie might have had for coming to this isolated spot four days after his girlfriend vanished. He had reportedly told Fred Johns, the hunting guide he was looking for elk. But as we have heard from Cary's own brother, what did he hunt? To the best of your present recollection, just deer. Just deer. So was Kerry stalking elk? Or had he harbored more sinister intentions? To test whether an old three wheeler could have carried a human body from this roadside clearing deeper into the forest, I needed an object similar in size, shape and weight. I pulled three bags of rock salt out of Terry's truck. Each one weighed 40 pounds. I spread a set of painter's coveralls on the dirt, then poured the 120lbs of rock salt into the corner coveralls through a zippered opening on the chest. Cherie's driver's license listed her as 5 foot 5 and 115 pounds. So this is about as much as a human body would weigh. 120 pounds of rock salt. And it is not easy to move. Terry and I lifted the simulated body onto the rack mounted on the back of my three wheeler. One, two, three. I'm a reasonably fit guy, but this task felt more difficult than I had anticipated. Come around this side. You got it. Not just because of the weight. The simulated body proved unwieldy. Okay, that is a two person job. You are not doing that alone. I've never moved an actual deceased human body, so I'm not sure how well this approximated reality. But a second set of hands made a huge difference. I'm not sure I could have managed on my own. With the simulated body in place, I fired up the three wheeler's small engine and headed down the dirt road. Having so much additional weight over the rear axle took pressure off the single front tire, which in turn made steering less effective. The engine felt sluggish. The rear tires rubbed on the plastic fenders, but the frame didn't bottom out. And with enough extra extra throttle, the three wheeler did go. I rode about a Quarter mile to a place where I knew from my research an old jeep trail forked off from the road. Maps from the 80s showed that trail descending into a canyon called Pete Nelson Hollow. This was one of the places I believed it was plausible Kerry Hartman might have gone on that Sunday so many years ago, it appeared evident the jeep trail hadn't seen seen use in a long time. Trees had fallen across the path and the underbrush had reclaimed the old tire tracks. I decided not to try and ride down it myself because of the risk of getting stuck. Instead, I scouted the old trail on foot. This would be a pretty tough path to get a three wheeler down. You could do it, but you would need to be a pretty good rider. And with the extra weight from a body, it would not be a fun ride. That might have been different in 1985 when the path wasn't so overgrown. The old ATV trail ended at a set of springs where water rose out of the ground and created a series of murky pools. These springs feed into Kazi Reservoir. They were surrounded by thick fields of a poisonous plant called false hellebore. I crashed through it, finding it so dense I couldn't see down past my own waist. You might walk by a human body in this kind of environment and be 10ft away from it and not ever see it emerging. On the other side of the hellebore patch, I saw meadows of dandelions and clear views farther down into the canyon. If I had been on the three wheeler, I could have easily kept riding. It's hard to describe without being up here and seeing this landscape, just how futile it feels if you were trying to find a human body up here. Still, I found myself getting sucked into the moment. I wanted to abandon my experiment and instead wander searching for Cherie. I knew the odds of finding anything were slim, but irrational hope sometimes leads the mind astray. What if, I wondered, I just happened across a chip of bone or fragment of cloth, some remnant, but no, no delusions of grandeur. I hiked back to the three wheeler with a newfound knowledge of what I had only suspected before. Human remains could easily go undetected in these mountain meadows. And it's possible, I believe, somebody could have driven a three wheeler down from the ridge into this opening. If Kerry Hartman killed Cherie Warren, my experiment suggests it's plausible. He could have used one of his three wheelers to move her body into the backcountry on this mountain beyond where police might bother to look. But maybe there's another explanation for what Kerry was doing here. Four days after Cherie Warren disappeared. It's a question I would very much like to ask him. And Kerry, if you're listening, you have an open invitation to come give your answer. When I first met former Roy police detective Jack Bell, we didn't start off talking about the Cherie Warren case. Instead, Jack opened our conversation by talking about another case I wasn't familiar with from the mid-80s.

[Jack Bell]

It's a strange story. We had a serial bank robber.

[Dave Cawley]

This robber had committed holdups at a few banks and a pharmacy. He was a smooth operator who had worn a suit and trench coat. He didn't make the ignorant mistakes many novice criminals do.

[Jack Bell]

Had a pretty good hunch that this bank robber was an ex cop or a cop you know, he knew too much about how did business.

[Dave Cawley]

Detectives hadn't had much to go on aside from a photo that didn't show the man's face and a brief audio recording of his voice. Jack had began to look and listen suspiciously at his fellow officers. He honed in on one particular guy he often saw working out at the city's gym. One day, Jack made a surreptitious tape recording of this suspect tape this guy.

[Jack Bell]

And turned it over to the FBI. And they're voice comparison said, yeah, I think you're on the right track. This sure sounds like it.

[Dave Cawley]

Jack had grown more and more certain he had his man. But he had no evidence to support that. Just a theory. Lo and behold, the guy from the gym was not the bank robber. Jack had been wrong. Hard evidence, including a confession, ended up pointing to a different guy. A former Roy City police officer named Boyd Wilcox.

[Jack Bell]

And his voice was perfect.

[Dave Cawley]

I didn't at first understand why Jack wanted me to know about the mistake he'd made in the search for this bank robber. Since it was unrelated to the disappearance of Sheree Warren. It wasn't until more than two hours later in our conversation, Jack came back to it.

[Jack Bell]

It's like I told you about that bankruptcy. I mean, I left that gym that day convinced I have the right guy.

[Dave Cawley]

Jack was trying to warn me. Be careful about what you think you know. Don't let your theories get too far in front of your facts. The hypothetical scenario we've discussed in this episode probably does that. It requires some assumptions that go beyond the available evidence.

[Jack Bell]

You gotta be broad. You can't narrow down unless there's absolutely evidence that somebody is guilty and it's right there.

[Dave Cawley]

But narrow it down is exactly what Jack had done at the start of the Cherie Warren case. He'd focused so much attention on Cherie's estranged husband, Chuck Warren, he hadn't seen the subtle signs Kerry Hartman might instead be responsible. Jack and I have talked several more times since our first meeting. He's admitted he loses sleep after each of our conversations.

[Jack Bell]

None of us like to fail. And I feel like I failed.

[Dave Cawley]

Jack hadn't at first noticed how Carrie's story shifted a little with each retelling.

[Jack Bell]

All Carrie's stories about her waiting her for him with Campbell's wine.

[Dave Cawley]

Jack hadn't caught the significance of Carrie slipping in references to Cherie staying over at his place in the middle of the week, even though that contradicted what Cherie's parents said about her routine.

[Jack Bell]

He wants everybody to know this is her normal procedure and how much this lady's in love with him.

[Dave Cawley]

Supposedly, Carrie had made repeated references to Cherie wearing his black parka on the morning of her disappearance. But Jack hadn't picked up on the potential significance of that. I'll admit that one's not super obvious. It hadn't seemed suspicious until police later found a gray suede women's jacket in Carrie's apartment. It's the tale of two coats we've discussed multiple times this season, and it leaves Jack wondering what other clues might have slipped under his nose during those critical early days.

[Jack Bell]

What did I miss? What did I miss? What did I miss? How many times have I asked myself that question?

[Dave Cawley]

Former Ogden police detective Shane Minor shared a similar sentiment with me when we spoke about the search for Cherie.

[Shane Minor]

You hate to miss it. And there's been cases where I've worked and I've missed things. And then you go back and when you realize what you missed, it's like, hey, we'll make that mistake again.

[Dave Cawley]

Do you think this case is solvable?

[Shane Minor]

I think it's a long shot, but hate to say it's not. I think there's a chance.

[Dave Cawley]

What would solving it look like? Is it just getting the answer? Is it getting a conviction? Is it finding a body?

[Shane Minor]

Well, my opinion on that would be I think it's solvable. But an effective prosecution, I think would be extremely difficult at this point in time.

[Dave Cawley]

We might someday get a definitive answer to the question what happened to Sherry Warren? But the window of opportunity to hold anyone accountable is rapidly closing. Consider what might happen if a prosecutor were to try and charge Kerry Hartman with murder today. Based on the current evidence, they would first have to clear the hurdle of convincing a judge probable cause existed to believe believe Kerry committed the crime. The circumstantial evidence we've uncovered in this podcast likely achieves that, but it's not likely to meet the higher standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt required for a criminal conviction. In the US justice system, the accused are presumed innocent unless and until they are proven guilty. It's up to the prosecution to present that proof. It doesn't have to be absolute proof, but it must be enough to convince a judge or jury no other reasonable explanation exists. Apply that standard to what we know of Cherie Warren's disappearance. Could a serial killer have abducted Cherie off the streets of Salt Lake City? Unlikely, but not impossible. That's doubt, but maybe not reasonable doubt. Could Chuck one Warren have killed Cherie in anger over their stalled divorce? Maybe he set up their meeting at Wagstaff Toyota as part of a plot. That's doubt and it's reasonable, given what we know about how Chuck attacked his first wife with a tire iron during their divorce. Convincing a judge or jury beyond a reasonable doubt Chuck Warren or Kerry Hartman killed Cherie would require more than just a good theory. It would take hard proof. Investigator Shane Miner spent years trying to find that proof. I'm not going to ask you to say a name, but do you feel like you know who was responsible in this case?

[Shane Minor]

I think so. I think there's one person knows exactly what happened, and I don't think that person's going to admit to it. Maybe on his dying deathbed, but I doubt it.

[Dave Cawley]

I don't think Shane was talking about Chuck Warren. Cherie's ex husband, Charles. Chuck Warren died on October 22, 2022, as a result of his dementia. Chuck had lived most of his life in Ogden, aside from a brief stint in Roseville, California during the 70s working for the railroad. He had one brother, brother Richard, but they hadn't been close for much of Chuck's life. They only reconciled in Chuck's later years. Richard told me Chuck had been a car nut whose favorite pastime had been taking long road trips all across the American West. Chuck Warren's death occurred very late in the reporting process for this podcast. It underscored to me Cherie Warren's case runs a very real risk of soon becoming unsolvable. Earlier in this episode, you heard Sheree's dad, Ed Sorenson, say he didn't think he would ever know the truth of what happened to his daughter. Ed was right. He passed away in December of 2021.

[John Frawley]

People involved in the case are passing away. That's. That's happening.

[Dave Cawley]

That's again the voice of Roy, police detective John Frawley.

[John Frawley]

So, yes, the clock is ticking. Absolutely.

[Dave Cawley]

At the time I'm recording this, Kerry Hartman is still alive. He is the last man standing. And the evidence suggests Kerry has never been fully forthcoming about his actions during the days surrounding Cherie Warren's disappearance. Detective John Frawley told me he's not giving up, but he needs our help.

[John Frawley]

If someone interacted with Cherie Warren, Kerry Hartman or Charles Warren on October 2, 1985, and maybe they haven't spoken to law enforcement, I would love to speak to them. Our ultimate goal is, you know, getting a case filed and prosecution.

[Dave Cawley]

My job as a journalist is a bit different than a detective's or a prosecutor's or a judge's. I'm not trying to make an arrest, to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt or to decide guilt or innocence under the law. My role is to uncover and report truth. So as we bring our story to a close, allow me to share the truth I have found while investigating Cherie Warren's case. As I speak to you now, I'm looking at a picture of Cherie from 1970 or so when she was about 10 years old. Cherie is staring into the camera lens. I see youthful curiosity and determination in her eyes. Cherie's life held so much potential. She grew up and was just finding her own path when someone stole that life from her. I've had a few people say to me, boy, Cherie sure knew how to pick him. Or she sure had poor taste in men. As if her murder was somehow her own fault. We have to stop doing that. Stop putting the blame on women when they are lied to, manipulated or abused by the people who are supposed to love them. More than half of the women who die by homicide in the United States each year are killed by a man who is either their current or past intimate partner. Cherie had both a current partner and a past partner who became plausible suspects in her death. So I can't tell you who killed Cherie, but I can say she is not responsible for the heartless actions of the two men in her life. Cherie's estranged husband Chuck Warren should have shown a bare minimum of human concern about her welfare, but he didn't. He acted as if her disappearance came as a favor. Cherie's short term boyfriend, Kerry Hartman role played the part of a respectable man while steering the investigation away from himself and terrorizing an entire community of unsuspecting women. We can only imagine what he subjected Cherie to during their brief time together. Abuse in relationships doesn't always lead to murder. But there are stories like Cherie's where everything escalates until there is no coming back. We have to do better than this. That is my truth. If you have experienced abuse or sexual violence violence you are not alone. There are trained experts ready to listen and help. In the United States, survivors of rape and sexual assault can connect to free resources through the Rape, Abuse and Incest national [e-mail] if you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse in any form, you can reach the National Domestic violence hotline at thehotline.org Cold is a production of KSL podcasts and Wondery in association with Workhouse Media. Thank you for listening.

[Chuck Warren]

SA.