Podcast Summary: Cold – The Search for Sheree | Talking Cold: Who Owns Your Case? | Episode 11 (April 24, 2023)

Episode Overview

This episode of Talking Cold, a companion series to KSL's Cold podcast, focuses on the complex topic of jurisdictional issues in missing persons and homicide investigations. Hosts Amy Donaldson and Sheryl Worsley discuss how overlapping police jurisdictions—and the administrative, political, and personal dynamics between agencies—can seriously hinder investigations, specifically using the 1985 disappearance of Sheree Warren as a case study. Guests Sheriff Aaron Kennard and former Roy Police Chief Carl Marino provide firsthand accounts of the challenges police face, the impact on victims' families, and the persistent problem of professional egos in law enforcement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context: Sheree Warren’s Case and Jurisdictional Hot Potato

• Sheree Warren disappeared in Salt Lake City (1985), but because she was a Roy resident, both cities deflected responsibility.
• Salt Lake City PD argued Roy PD should handle the case, while Roy’s limited resources made thorough investigation challenging.
  • Quote:
    “The last place she was known that people knew where she was was Salt Lake. So the case should have been handled out of Salt Lake, but they said, no, she's a Roy citizen, and so we're not going to work it.”
    — Carl Marino [01:43]
• The lack of a clearly “owned” case led to stagnation and heartbreak for the victim’s family and community.

2. Jurisdictional Complexity in Utah Law Enforcement

• The Salt Lake Valley is a patchwork of cities (each with a police force), unincorporated county areas (handled by the Sheriff), and overlapping authorities.
• In the 1990s, a proposed “Metro Police Department” aimed to unify agencies and eliminate these turf wars, but political resistance (especially from mayors and local officials) killed the idea.
  • Quote:
    “A mayor really needs to have the power of being over a police department... a sheriff has total jurisdiction... A police chief works for the mayor. Whereas the sheriff is an elected official and works for, like, 750,000 people.”
    — Sheriff Aaron Kennard [06:55]

3. The Real-World Consequences of Jurisdictional Disputes

• Jurisdictional tension and reluctance to share information delay or prevent resolutions.
• Smaller police departments are often overwhelmed logistically and financially by serious cases that cross city boundaries.
• Key challenges: insufficient manpower, unfamiliarity with other city areas, and difficulty absorbing the extra investigative load.
  • Quote:
    “With Roy at that time, there were 17 officers... for Roy to fund a trip to Las Vegas, you're not going to send one, so you got to send two. So now you've sent, you know, 10% of your police department to Las Vegas ... Salt Lake could have easily absorbed the investigation.”
    — Carl Marino [25:31]

4. Ego and “Professional Jealousy”: The Human Barrier

• Both Kennard and Marino describe a culture where individual officers—and entire departments—are concerned about prestige, credit, and reputations. This often trumps the drive for collaboration:
  • Larger agencies fear “little guys interfering”;
  • Small agencies resent being bossed around;
  • Detectives may not share crucial info to protect their own egos or because they distrust the abilities of others.
• Quote:
  “Some of it is just straightly ego driven. ... One of the other things is, you know, I've talked to this detective from the other agency. I don't think he's capable... [or] they've got their own theory, they're going to complicate it.”
  — Carl Marino [19:39]

5. Information Sharing: Pros, Cons, and Progress

• 1980s policing: paperwork, red tape, multiple approvals, and hand-written reports all hindered timely coordination.
• Even with modern databases, turf wars and approval hierarchies inhibit broad information sharing.
  • Quote:
    “Back when I first started, all reports were handwritten. So if you wanted a copy of a report, you had to get approval from the detective... maybe a chief, to release a report to another agency. And you then have egos all the way up the line.”
    — Carl Marino [27:17]
• Technology and a younger generation of officers have improved collaboration, but the culture shift is ongoing.

6. The Debate Over Metro Police Departments

Pros:

• Better information sharing, more resources, comprehensive training, broader job diversity, quicker response to major events.
• Small departments can be spread dangerously thin.
• Quote:
  “When you have one or two police officers covering a city... That's clearly not a good situation, especially for her.”
  — Amy Donaldson [11:50]

Cons:

• Higher cost, potential for corruption and abuses to become systemic, challenge of maintaining transparency in a larger body.
• Quote:
  “Abuses are easier to cover when you're unwieldy like that and huge like that... I'm not going to say that it's automatic that with big also comes corruption, but it's also easier to cover when that happens.”
  — Sheryl Worsley [12:49]

7. Reserve Officers and the Dangers of Insufficient Training

• In the 1980s, reserve officers (like suspect Kerry Hartman) could join with minimal vetting and training.
• Reserve officers augmented stretched departments but had much less authority and training than full-fledged officers.
  • Quote:
    “Back when I started, there was no requirement... The department would bring you on as a volunteer. They would provide you what training they thought you should have ... We didn't have the authority to make arrests...”
    — Carl Marino [33:07]
• The minimal barriers could attract those seeking authority for the wrong reasons.
  • Quote:
    “You get the ones that, this guy has a huge ego, he's never wrong, and, you know, as a chief, you just don't hire people like that.”
    — Carl Marino [37:49]

8. Changing Attitudes: Old-School Ego vs. Modern Collaboration

• The hosts and guests discuss the “Dirty Harry”/Clint Eastwood ethos that prevailed in past policing—a lone-wolf, anti-collaborative ideal that is now seen as counterproductive.
• The new generation is more willing to work as a team, share information, and avoid unnecessary turf battles.
  • Quote:
    “The feeling that we have to be better. We can't let those egos, we can't let those kind of problems hinder good police work.”
    — Carl Marino [31:51]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The damn homicides are not a political issue.”
  — Sheriff Aaron Kennard quoting a victim’s father, on the devastation jurisdictional squabbles cause [03:48]

• “There’s no statistic kept on the things that we should have done or could have done... the jurisdictional issues cause these problems, and they don’t have the other road. They can’t go down that road and say, if we had had this information or if we had shared that, you don’t know what somebody else knows.”
  — Amy Donaldson [10:25]

• “When you’re trying to solve crimes, it’s not a competition, except between law enforcement and whoever committed the crime.”
  — Carl Marino [23:01]

• “Unfortunately, the Dirty Harry guys don’t make good cops. And I think that’s probably one benefit that’s come out of the last few years of police being under the microscope and being criticized so heavily, is the feeling that we have to be better.”
  — Carl Marino [31:51]

• “The benefit [of larger departments] is if you have the kind of police department that is interested in, you know, a holistic type and a community oriented policing... Let’s make it something that is more holistic.”
  — Amy Donaldson [12:36, 13:51]

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:22 – Introduction to the episode’s theme: “Who owns your case?” and jurisdictional confusion in Sheree Warren’s disappearance
• 01:37 – Explanation of the “hot potato” jurisdictional handoff and initial resistance by Salt Lake City PD
• 03:22–04:53 – 1990s push for a Metro Police Department; Kennard on the pervasiveness of turf wars
• 05:58–10:59 – Sheriff Kennard on how jurisdictional roadblocks develop, persist, and why they’re hard to fix
• 11:11–13:51 – Pros and cons of creating a metro police department, including cultural and systemic barriers
• 15:05–18:20 – Carl Marino outlines his direct involvement with the Warren case and cross-agency breakdown
• 19:39–21:15 – Discussion of ego as a disabling factor in detective work and its ripple effect on investigations
• 23:01–25:31 – Egos, mistakes, and the minimal resources available to small-town departments
• 27:17–29:28 – Technological advances vs. human barriers in information sharing
• 29:28–32:19 – Generational change in law enforcement culture; influence of pop culture (Dirty Harry, The Sopranos)
• 33:07–36:56 – What are reserve officers? The risks of insufficient training and vetting
• 37:29–38:12 – Why reserves can be risky: potential for people seeking authority over service

Conclusions & Takeaways

The episode presents a thorough examination of the deep-rooted problems and slow progress in law enforcement collaboration, especially in complex cases like Sheree Warren’s. Through personal anecdotes, policy debates, and candid evaluation of police culture, “Who Owns Your Case?” challenges listeners to understand that investigative failures are often less about resources or intent, and more about power, pride, and outdated systems. The discussion ultimately encourages continued reform—both structural and cultural—to ensure that victims and families don’t fall through the cracks.