A Confession for Carmen

Summary

Cold Case Files – “A Confession for Carmen”

Podcast: Cold Case Files
Host: A&E / PodcastOne
Date: December 2, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode revisits two chilling cold cases that haunted law enforcement for decades: the 1989 rape and murder of Carmen Barracal in Philadelphia, and the disappearance and murder of Jack Irwin in California. The episode delves deeply into advances in forensic science, the persistence of investigators, false accusations, confessions, and the devastating impact on victims’ loved ones and communities. Through interviews with police, prosecutors, forensic experts, and those close to the victims, the show brings to light how seemingly unsolvable cases were finally closed and justice served—though not always to everyone’s satisfaction.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Murder of Carmen Barracal

Discovery and Initial Investigation

• [01:12] Body of 18-year-old Carmen Barracal found in Cobb’s Creek, Philadelphia, in June 1989.
• Detective Jim Corbett describes the scene: “She was in the water, face down. I thought the worst. Her shirt was missing, her brow was off and her looped around her neck. I assumed then that she had been raped and murdered.” (01:27)
• Stephen McNamee, Carmen’s boyfriend, quickly identified her and became the prime suspect.

Stephen McNamee Under Suspicion

• McNamee recounts his last moments with Carmen, revealing an argument and her storming out.
• Subjected to an 11-hour interrogation: “A lot of the interrogation was a blur. It’s just three guys rotating one after another.” (04:09)
• He passes a polygraph and is cleared by blood typing, but the community continues to ostracize him: “There were some people in the neighborhood that just, you know, were evil with, you know, Steve did it. I don’t care what he says.” (05:40)

Case Grows Cold

• Detective Ken Curcio picks up the case. Investigation leads to Carmen’s missing class ring being pawned.
• Trail leads to Raymond Williams, an uncooperative suspect found with Carmen’s ring, but lack of evidence stalls proceedings.

Breakthrough After 15 Years

• [14:29] Cold case detectives, prompted by Assistant DA Jude Conroy, revisit evidence. Coroner’s rape kit, long thought to yield nothing, provides a DNA swab after innovative testing by Brian Fleeger.
• DNA is entered into CODIS, and within 10 days there’s a match – Raymond Williams, the original suspect.

Confrontation and Confession

• Detective Boyle stages Williams’ interrogation: “I took out the DNA report and I showed him the DNA report and I said, ray, we’re talking about quadrillion. 18 zeros after the number that says you.” (17:38)
• Williams confesses, though insists the sex was consensual, a claim disbelieved by prosecutors and detectives.

Justice and Lingering Trauma

• Williams accepts a plea for life without parole, avoiding the death penalty.
• Stephen McNamee, long blamed by his community, expresses pain: “It’s been so many years of being blamed. I already lived the torture… I believe an eye for an eye and he should die. That’s what I believe.” (20:45)

---

The Murder of Jack Irwin – The Mount Baldy Case

Jack Irwin’s Disappearance

• [25:12] Marsha Johnson’s confession in 2002 recounts the killing and dismemberment of Jack Irwin.
• Friends recall irregularities in Irwin’s behavior after Marsha Johnson and Judy Gellert move in, and suspicions arise as Irwin disappears and the women inherit his assets.

Suspicious Behavior and Financial Motives

• Johnson and Gellert spend Irwin’s money on lavish vehicles and RVs. Neighbors publicly question Irwin’s whereabouts.

Burned Cabin and Arson

• Johnson and Gellert’s cabin (formerly Irwin’s) is set on fire—neighbors suggest searching for Irwin’s remains, but nothing is found.

Civil Suit Leads to Break

• DA investigator Maury Weiss discovers a deposition from Johnson’s therapist, Dr. Martin, containing a confession: “She said she cut him up. She cut him into pieces.” (34:45)

Wiretaps and Arrest

• Detectives wiretap Johnson and Gellert as pressure mounts and assets are confiscated.
• Panic sets in: “No, it’s all over. Everything’s over… I’m turning myself in for killing Jack.” (42:03)
• Marsha Johnson provides a detailed confession to detectives, admitting to shooting and dismembering Irwin, then disposing of his body in the wilderness: “I cut his head off. And then I cut both of his hands off… I put his torso in one area, his head… I took it out of the bag and I just watched it roll down this mountain.” (43:08)

Trial and Outcome

• Despite attempts at mounting a mental instability defense, evidence of greed overwhelms: “Didn’t leave any cookies, just emptied the cookie jar because she knew Jack was not coming back.” (46:37)
• Johnson is convicted of murder; Gellert pleads to receiving stolen property and gets probation. Community and investigators express outrage at the crime’s callousness.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Determination and Closure

• “I guess they would call it staging. Well, then that’s what I’m doing. I’m staging a room. I want them to feel uncomfortable. I want their mind racing the minute they come in here.” – Detective Boyle on interrogation strategy (17:09)

On the Emotional Toll for Innocents

• “It’s been so many years of being blamed. I already lived the torture… I believe an eye for an eye and he should die.” – Stephen McNamee, wrongly accused for years (20:45)

On the Power of New Forensic Technology

• “I was able to get a profile from the rectal swab. He said, you’re not going to believe this, but we have a… I got a DNA sample.” – Forensic scientist Brian Fleeger (15:25)

On Remorse and Justification

• “I don’t know what happened to me, but I shot him… Then I cut both of his hands off… I put his torso in one area, his head… I just watched it roll down this mountain.” – Marsha Johnson’s shockingly unemotional confession (43:08)

On Community Responsibility

• “We had to do something to stop them if they think they’ve gotten away with this. And when they run out of Jack’s money, who’s going to be next?” – Jack Irwin’s friend (48:21)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:58] – The murder of Carmen Barracal is discovered
• [02:55] – Stephen McNamee identified as Carmen’s boyfriend
• [05:21] – McNamee passes polygraph and is cleared by evidence
• [07:08] – Missing class ring leads to new suspect
• [08:48] – Case goes cold for 15 years
• [14:29] – Cold case detectives discover rape kit offers DNA profile
• [16:18] – DNA hit matches Raymond Williams
• [17:38] – Detective Boyle confronts Williams with DNA evidence
• [18:43] – Williams confesses to the crime
• [20:45] – McNamee speaks about trauma from false accusations
• [25:12] – Marsha Johnson’s confession about murdering Jack Irwin
• [27:24] – Irwin puts women in his trust, disappears a week later
• [32:10] – Fire destroys Jack Irwin’s former cabin
• [34:45] – Johnson’s therapist reveals confession
• [40:20] – Wiretap captures panic: Johnson plans to surrender
• [43:08] – Marsha Johnson details the murder and dismemberment
• [46:37] – Prosecutor’s closing “cookie jar” analogy at Johnson’s trial
• [47:44] – Judy Gellert receives probation; detectives reflect

---

Conclusion

“A Confession for Carmen” highlights how cold cases can remain unsolved for decades but are never truly forgotten. The painstaking work of detectives and prosecutors, technological advances in forensics, and the courage of those seeking justice finally bring closure—but not always peace—to the victims’ families and wrongly accused. Chilling confessions and the devastation wrought by violent crime echo through both cases, while the show honors the victims by ensuring their stories are heard.

Transcript

[Narrator]

The following episode contains intensely disturbing accounts of violence. Listener discretion is advised.

[Detective/Investigator]

I just said, ray, do you know why you're here? I took out the DNA report and I showed him the DNA report and I said, ray, we're talking about quadrillion. 18 zeros after the number. This is you. So now his mind is racing because he also knows what's coming next. And it didn't even have to be said, but it was going to be said. Ray. The death penalty's coming. This was the 202nd homicide in the city that year. So we're kind of familiar with getting a lot of work in this area.

[Narrator]

It's the summer of 1989, and on June 25, Philadelphia homicide detective Jim Corbett heads out on the latest call. A body floating in Cobb's Creek.

[Detective/Investigator]

Now here's. Here's the trail. We'll take this trail down to where the body was discovered. You didn't see the victim until you got right in this area here, right close to the shore. She was in the water, face down. I thought the worst. Her shirt was missing, her brow was off and her looped around her neck. I assumed then that she had been raped and murdered.

[Narrator]

At autopsy, the coroner confirms Corbett's fears. A rape kit is taken and semen identified. The time of death is estimated to have been between 3 and 7am Identifying the victim doesn't take long as word of the crime spreads and a young man named Stephen McNamee approaches the scene.

[Detective/Investigator]

And I just asked, I said, listen, I said, last night my girlfriend left and she didn't come back. And I've been calling her and they said, well, give me a description. So I gave a description of what she was wearing at the time.

[Narrator]

The description Stephen offers is an exact match to the girl pulled from Cobb's Creek.

[Detective/Investigator]

Little by little, I see more detectives coming over and keeping an eye on me. And they started asking me more questions. And I told them that I'm gonna run to her house. And they said, no, we'll drive you. And I opened her door and her bed wasn't even slept in. And I just collapsed right there. I just fell on the floor. And at that point I knew that it was her. They didn't have to tell me.

[Narrator]

Police confirm the murder victim is in fact 18 year old Carmen Barracal, a recent graduate of West Catholic high and Stephen McNamee's girlfriend for the past five years.

[Detective/Investigator]

He told us he was with Carmen the night before. They had attended a party, went back to his house where they had gotten into an Argument, and Carmen ran out of the house, and he went out after her, looking for her. He claims to have searched for her for a couple hours and couldn't find her, so he automatically became a suspect. At that point, the detectives took a picture of Carmen that I. That I picked up and showed him. And at that point, I went down to the roundhouse.

[Narrator]

The roundhouse, also known as headquarters of the Philadelphia Police Department.

[Detective/Investigator]

We had a suspect. We thought the boyfriend of Carmen Barrichal agreed to come down with us.

[Narrator]

Stephen McNamee arrives at a little after 1pm on the afternoon of June 25th. For the next 11 hours, he is questioned about his dead girlfriend.

[Detective/Investigator]

A lot of the interrogation was a blur. It's just three guys rotating one after another. We wanted to know if he had ever seen her after the argument, what happened after the argument, if he caught up with her or not, and if he had caught up with her. We wanted to know if he was responsible for her death.

[Narrator]

Detectives focus on the details of McNamee's story, the specifics of their fight and why she left his house.

[Detective/Investigator]

Carmen still wanted to go out, and I was trying to tell her that I couldn't. And I went upstairs for just a minute, and she walked out the door, and I ran out of the house. I just seen her turn the corner, and I ran up the street. And as far as I ran up the street, I didn't see which way she went. Well, I was suspicious because he said he went out looking for her at 4 o' clock in the morning and couldn't find her. And they lived right around the corner from one another. I think they suspected me because I was the last one that seen her, as far as they knew at the time. So last one to be with her, that's who did it.

[Narrator]

Stephen McNamee passes a polygraph test. Blood typing then eliminates him as a source of semen found inside the victim. McNamee is essentially eliminated as a possible suspect in his West Philadelphia neighborhood. However, the locals are not so easy to convince.

[Detective/Investigator]

It was really hard dealing with the people who said, you know, Steve's a murderer, and there were some people in the neighborhood that just, you know, were evil with, you know, Steve did it. I don't care what he says. I'd go into a bar and it would hush up, and I knew what the topic was.

[Narrator]

Stephen McNamee tries to ignore the whispers and quietly grieves his girlfriend's passing. Meanwhile, police continue to hunt for Carmen Berkol's killer.

[Detective/Investigator]

In a city of Philadelphia where you have over 400 homicides a year, you can see it doesn't take long for another job to come in.

[Narrator]

Ken Curcio is a detective with Philadelphia's Special Investigations Unit. The place where murders go if they can't be cleared in 30 days. In July 1989, Curcio takes over the Barrackol file and begins to dig in earnest.

[Detective/Investigator]

We've started looking into the area for known sex offenders, people that had a history of a violent type crime, especially amongst women that might be in that area. And you guys, you guys did a lot of work on this. Well, we were able to trace down the ring.

[Narrator]

The ring is Carmen's class ring, the only item missing from her body. Six months into the case, Curcio discovers it has been pawned at a local shop.

[Detective/Investigator]

This is the ring that we had secured from the high school. There was no doubt in anybody's mind that that was Carmen's ring.

[Narrator]

Curcio runs down the man who sold the ring, a plumber named Marvin, who tells Curcio he took the ring while working at a house in West Philadelphia.

[Detective/Investigator]

Well, it made sense. And. And we checked Marvin out and he cooperated with us. And we were convinced at the time that Marvin left here that he was telling us the truth.

[Narrator]

The next stop for Curcio is the house the ring was stolen from. It sits on West 63rd Street, 2. Two blocks from where Carmen Barracal was murdered. Here, Curcio meets a man named Raymond Williams.

[Detective/Investigator]

It could have been that the gentleman might have, let's say, found it, found it on the street and left it in the house. And it was done that way. But of course, when he refused to cooperate with us, that's when the antennas go up.

[Narrator]

Williams refuses to submit to a polygraph or blood test.

[Detective/Investigator]

Well, at that point, he's one of our main suspects. I mean, he has possession of an item that the girl had on her the night she was murdered. He didn't want to cooperate with us in any way, so he would be listed as a prime suspect.

[Narrator]

The city convenes a grand jury which listens to the evidence against Williams, but refuses to issue a subpoena that would force Williams to talk.

[Detective/Investigator]

We were kind of stymied at that point. Guy didn't have a whole lot of friends. He wasn't a talkative type guy. Not much we could do with it. And it kind of got put aside and other cases were worked on.

[Narrator]

Carmen Barracal's murder moves from the Special Investigations Unit into the cold files where it sits for 15 years until the right investigator receives a tip that gets Carmen Barracal's investigation moving again.

[Detective/Investigator]

I don't know. Fate? God, who knows? This was one job that was meant to be solved. Foreign.

[Narrator]

This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack and hydration sponsor. IQ Bar is the Better for you Plant protein based snack made with brain boosting nutrients to refuel, nourish and keep you satisfied without that midday sugar crash. Lately, my days have been a juggling act of work, errands and trying to squeeze in a workout, so I've been leaning on simple little routines that make everything feel easier. For me. That's tossing an IQ Bar in my bag before I leave the house, keeping an IQ Mix stick at my DES desk, and knowing I've always got something on hand that won't leave me feeling weighed down or wired. IQ Bars Plant Protein Bars are such a smart grab and go snack because they have more fiber and less sugar and carbs than a lot of the usual options, so I stay full and focused instead of sluggish. I'm also a big fan of IQ Mix, their zero Sugar Drink mix. It's an easy way to stay on top of hydration with electrolytes while ingredients like magnesium and lion's mane help with mood and clarity, which I definitely appreciate when my afternoon brain tries to check out early. And if you're a coffee person, IQ Joe is their jitter free instant coffee with 200 milligrams of natural caffeine that comes in delicious flavors perfect for mornings when you want energy without feeling shaky. With over 20,000 5 star reviews and counting, more people than ever are fueling their busy days with IQ Bars bars, hydration mixes and mushroom coffees. Their Ultimate Sampler Pack includes all three so you can find your favorites. Nine IQ Bars, eight IQ Mix Sticks and four IQ Joe Sticks. If you've been wanting a snack and sip lineup that actually supports your brain and body, the Ultimate Sampler Pack is such an easy place to start. And right now IQ Bars offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ Bar products including the sampler pack plus free shipping to get your 20% off text cold to 64,000 text cold to 64,000 that's cold to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See Terms for details. Picture a quiet moment during the holidays. Warm socks on twinkle lights, glowing hot chocolate in hand. That is peak learning time. And with just a few minutes a day, Rosetta Stone turns that little pocket of downtime into real progress. You'll Carry into the New Rosetta Stone has been a trusted leader in language Learning for over 30 years, using an immersive, intuitive method that helps you pick up your new language naturally. No endless vocabulary lists, no feeling like you're cramming for a test. Lessons are simple to slot into your day, whether you're sneaking in 10 minutes before bed or doing a quick session while you're waiting in the pickup line. The way it corrects pronunciation with true accent feels like having a patient coach in your earbuds, nudging you towards sounding more natural every time you practice. It's perfect if your motivation is planning a trip for 2026, reconnecting with your family's language, or just keeping a learn something new promise to yourself. You can learn anytime, anywhere, on your desktop or on the mobile app, whether you've got five minutes or a full hour to dive in. And if you're looking for the best holiday value, the Lifetime membership gives you access to 25 languages forever. So you can start with one now and pick a new one next year without paying extra. Don't wait, unlock your language learning potential now. Cold Case Files Listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlim to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com Coldcase to get started and claim your 50% off today. Give a gift that keeps giving. Go to RosettaStone.com Coldcase and start learning today. Save over $200 when you book weekly.

[Detective/Investigator]

Stays with VRBO this winter.

[Narrator]

If you need to work, why not work from a chalet?

[Detective/Investigator]

If you haven't seen your college besties.

[Narrator]

Since, well, college you need a week.

[Detective/Investigator]

To fully catch up in a snowy cabin.

[Narrator]

And if you have to stay in.

[Detective/Investigator]

A remote place with your in laws, you should save over $200 a week. That's the least we can do. So you might as well start digging.

[Narrator]

Out the long johns because saving over $200 on a week long snowcation rental is in the cards book [e-mail].

[Detective/Investigator]

This is the article from the Overbrook press that stated July 6th of 1989. This is actually the newspaper that actually began my involvement in the case.

[Narrator]

Jude Conroy is an assistant DA in Philadelphia. In 1989 he read an article about the unsolved murder of Carmen Barakal. Fifteen years later he finds himself riding past the house where Barracal once lived and begins to think about the old case.

[Detective/Investigator]

And I came back to the office and we pulled the file out, which is right here. We had had Been in the office for the last 10 years.

[Narrator]

Conroy is picking through the old boxes when two detectives named Chuck Boyle and Jeff Piry walk by his office. Chuck and Jeff specialize in cold homicides.

[Detective/Investigator]

I invited them in under the ruse of wishing them happy Thanksgiving. But then, of course, telling them that I really thought we should take another look at this case. We knew nothing about the case. I actually didn't even recognize the name. So Jude actually had the case file there, so we took it with us. I remember taking part of the case file home with me. In fact, I took this the first night home with me and I read the case.

[Narrator]

Boyle spends the next week looking through every sheet in the case file, looking for a loose end that might be a lead. As Boyle reads through the coroner's report, he notices a rape kit was collected.

[Detective/Investigator]

We know that we have swabs that were taken from the body of Corman Barrack Hole. I contacted the DNA lab, Brian Fleger, and gave him. There's numbers on it, property receipt numbers that if we could look up and see whether we had this evidence. This particular kind of evidence is actually kept in our freezers here in the laboratory.

[Narrator]

Forensic scientist Brian Fleeger digs through the lab's freezer and pulls out an envelope dated 1989.

[Detective/Investigator]

This was the actual evidence that I looked at. You can see tainer. Looks. Looks like it's about 15 years old. When we opened the envelope, the only thing that was left in there was actually the original tubes that the swabs were submitted in. The swabs themselves were going. Or they were used up. You can see there's just wooden sticks, no swab.

[Narrator]

The swabs had been used up in prior testing, seemingly leaving nothing for DNA analysis.

[Detective/Investigator]

My next choice in this particular case was to take the tubes and swab the inside of the original tubes on the chance that some of the original material would have been transferred from the swabs to the inside of those tubes. Cases like this, you want to make sure you do everything possible to try to develop a profile. And after processing those, I was able to get a profile from the rectal swab. He said, you're not going to believe this, but we have a. I got a DNA sample. I said, you're kidding me. He said, yeah. And he said, look, we're going to enter it into codis.

[Narrator]

The profile is uploaded into a DNA database of convicted felons. Ten days later, Chuck Boyle gets a second call.

[Detective/Investigator]

And then it was just before Christmas when he called me back and said that they had A Dakotis had a hit on it and that floored me. I remember thinking this was just the most unbelievable Christmas present that I could ever receive.

[Narrator]

The match comes back to Raymond Williams, a convicted felon and one time suspect in the murder. Conroy and Boyle believe they have id'd their killer. Now they want him to confess.

[Detective/Investigator]

What are we really looking for? I want him to admit what he did. I want his confession.

[Narrator]

In January of 2005, Detective Boyle takes Raymond Williams out of general population at Greaterford Prison in Pennsylvania and walks him into interview room D, a Philadelphia homicide.

[Detective/Investigator]

I guess they would call it staging. Well, then that's what I'm doing. I'm staging a room. I want them to feel uncomfortable. I want their mind racing the minute that they come in here. I sat like I'm sitting here. Detective Bass was here and Ray was here. And I just said, ray, do you know why you're here?

[Narrator]

Williams replies with a shrug. Then Boyle gets to work laying out the building blocks in a case for murder.

[Detective/Investigator]

I took out the DNA report and I showed him the DNA report and I said, ray, we're talking about quadrillion. 18 zeros after the number that says you. And I said, ray, if you can explain to me now, your semen was found in her rectum. We'll take you back to Greater.

[Narrator]

Raymond Williams doesn't offer anything in the way of an explanation or denial.

[Detective/Investigator]

It was almost like he got hit in the solar plexus with something. Now he's nervous, and he's nervous because he knows it's over. He knows we haven't. So now his mind is racing because he also knows what's coming next. And it didn't even have to be said. But it was going to be said, Ray. The death penalty's coming.

[Narrator]

Boyle offers Williams one way out, one way to save his life. Williams considers and then decides he wants to talk.

[Detective/Investigator]

We got the typewriter in the room and we started. I actually started to type. And one of the first questions in the statement was, did you murder Corman Barrack Hall? Yes, that was the truth. Everything after that was a lie. His story is that he meets Carmen Barrichol on the L train coming from Center City out. And while talking on a train, she agrees to have consensual sex with them. And they decide to go down into the park and that they had come down this path here where the scene actually took place, which was right down this path, and that they had walked down this path that night.

[Narrator]

Boyle doesn't believe Carmen Barracal took the train that night or ever agreed to have sex with Raymond Williams. According to Boyle, this case is about a killer laying in one weight and a young woman who never had a chance.

[Detective/Investigator]

Raymond Williams grabbed her and whether he used a weapon or he physically assaulted her, punched her, whatever, he got hurt down into this area with the intent to rape her.

[Narrator]

While detectives and prosecutors don't believe William's story, they accept his guilty plea in exchange for a life sentence without the possibility of parole, avoiding the death penalty.

[Detective/Investigator]

Pennsylvania is one of the few states where a life sentence is life. He will spend the rest of his natural life in jail, so he will never, ever walk the streets of Philadelphia again. Am I satisfied? Sure, I'm satisfied. I'm satisfied for the fact that Raymond Williams will never rape, never murder anyone in his life again.

[Narrator]

While the conviction satisfies investigators investigators, the sentence falls short for Stephen McNamee, a man whose girlfriend was raped and murdered and then suffered the whispers of neighbors and friends who deemed him guilty.

[Detective/Investigator]

It's been so many years of being blamed. I already lived the torture. I can't take back all the years of being blamed. That won't happen. I think that he should fry, he should get. He shouldn't be allowed to live in prison. I just don't believe that at all. I believe an eye for an eye and he should die. That's what I believe.

[Narrator]

Before I found Jones Road Beauty, my makeup routine was a lot. I'd layer on foundation, concealer, bronzer, blush, highlighter. Half my bathroom counter was involved and I still ended up feeling like my skin was hidden under a mask instead of actually looking like my skin. It took forever, especially on mornings when I was just trying to get out the door without looking exhausted. That's why I love Jones Road Beauty's miracle balm. The first time I tried it, it felt like my face, but with this soft, healthy sheen instead of a bunch of layers sitting on top. It gives that easy, natural look I've always wanted, where you can still see my skin just with a little extra glow. What I love most is how fast it is. There are no brushes and no complicated routine. I warm it up with my fingers, press it into my cheeks, a little on the bridge of my nose, and I'm done in under a minute. And it isn't just their famous miracle balm. They've built a full lineup of effortless skin first staples, like they're just enough tinted moisturizer. It's packed with skin friendly ingredients to help keep skin moisturized without clogging pores. And the best part about Jones Road Beauty is that all of their products are actually good for your skin. Every formula is packed with skin loving ingredients that nourish instead of clog so everything feels and looks natural, like you're not wearing much makeup at all. They're clean, high performing formulas. Skip things like phthalates, sulfates, petroleum pegs, cyclic silicones, EDTA and BPA because making beauty cleaner and easier just makes sense. Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic and multifunctional for effortless routines for a limited time, our listeners are getting a free cool gloss on their first purchase when they use Code Cold Case at checkout. Just head to Jonesroadbeauty.com and use code Cold Case at checkout. After you purchase they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you this episode is sponsored by Better Help. The holidays are here and with them come all the traditions. Old ones, new ones, and the ones we're still figuring out. In my house that looks like holiday music way earlier than anyone asked for. Kids clustering ornaments on the same tiny branch and me tinkering with a new hot chocolate recipe every year until it's just right. Lately, I've also been dreaming up a tradition that's just for me, a quiet check in with myself before the year wraps up. Therapy fits beautifully into that. This season can be joyful, but also pretty intense. There's family, travel, gifts, and for a lot of people, a real sense of loneliness under all the sparkle. Making therapy part of your holiday rhythm can be a way of saying I get a seat at the table too. It gives you space to sort through what you want to keep, what you want to change, and what kind of traditions actually feel good to you going into the new year. Better Help makes getting that support straightforward. You take a short questionnaire. They use over a decade of experience to match you with a licensed therapist who fits your needs. And if the match doesn't doesn't feel right, you can switch and try someone else. There are more than 30,000 therapists on the platform and they've worked with millions of people worldwide, with live sessions rated an average of 4.9 out of 5. If you've been thinking about closing out the year with a little more clarity and a little less chaos, consider making online therapy one of your new traditions. This December, give yourself that weekly hour that's just for you in between the baking and the airport lines and the group chats. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you our listeners get 10 [e-mail] Cold case. That's better. H E L P.

[Detective/Investigator]

I know that at some point he started talking about Judy, saying awful things about her. I was pissed. He kept on saying all these bad things about Judy. He wanted me to be with him. And it's like, no. All of a sudden I see his hand go up and there was blood just squirting out. I mean squirting out. So there was a chainsaw underneath the house. This is really, really hard. I cut his head off. I don't know, I don't know what happened to me but I shot him, shot him in the back of the head.

[Narrator]

In a police interrogation room in 2002, 42 year old Marsha Johnson talks to San Bernardino detective Bobby Dean about a murder.

[Detective/Investigator]

But when I cut his head off, I didn't realize how heavy a head is. It's really heavy.

[Narrator]

Her statement marks the end of a murder that began three years earlier on a dead end street in California.

[Detective/Investigator]

My house is this one right here and Jack's house is this one right here. And like I said, he only lived here 6 months.

[Narrator]

Susie Hegemeier has lived in upland for 10 years and knows everyone on her block, including her newest neighbor, a well off senior named Jack Irwin.

[Detective/Investigator]

One thing about Jack, if you ask him, do you have any money? He'd pull out a wad of money and go, yeah, I got money, I got a lot of money, here's money. And I got money in the bank, I got lots of money in the bank. And sometimes he'd actually give you figures like I have 250,000 in one bank.

[Narrator]

Susan likes Jack, but becomes concerned when two young women named Marsha Johnson and Judy Gellert move in with the old man.

[Detective/Investigator]

And eventually they started calling him dad. And it didn't take very long for them to infiltrate his lifestyle. My conversations with him after a few months of him being down there was, were that he felt things were out of control.

[Narrator]

Sandy Bailey is one of Jack's best friends.

[Detective/Investigator]

He would go to the market, he'd come back, things of his would be moved or no longer there in the home. They'd move things around and he didn't feel like he had any control over his home anymore. One morning he called me over, I was leaving for work and he said, I want to tell you something. And I said what? He goes, do you know the girls and I are going to be a family? And we all went to an attorney and I put him on my trust.

[Narrator]

Irwin has Already sold the girls a cabin he owned in Mount Baldy, 10 miles away. Now it appears the two women are in line to inherit everything.

[Detective/Investigator]

If I die, they get everything. If they die, I get everything. I said, jack, what are you talking about? Everything's yours. I said, you should think about what you just did.

[Narrator]

Jack Irwin never takes the time to think about it. One week later, he disappears from Upland and Susan Hagemeier confronts the girls.

[Detective/Investigator]

Jack took a trip. I said, what do you mean he took a trip? He took a trip. He wanted to go to Seattle. And I said, why Seattle? Oh, because he wanted to see the Space Needle. And I said, well, how long is he gonna be? Oh, I don't know. Where is he gonna stay? I don't know. And I told her, I said, jack.

[Narrator]

Would never do that.

[Detective/Investigator]

It's just not his personality.

[Narrator]

Like Hagemeier, Sandy doesn't believe Jack would take off for Seattle without telling anyone. I thought it was a lie.

[Detective/Investigator]

And I got one of Jack's pictures and I put a missing thing on it and I stuck it up in front of the post office. I put on telephone poles and I knew the girls would have to walk.

[Narrator]

By it every day to get their.

[Detective/Investigator]

Mail and it would aggravate them. And it did. They said they were going to sue me for slander.

[Narrator]

Two weeks later, Jack Irwin is still nowhere to be found. Johnson and Gellert now split their time between Jack's home in Upland and his former cabin in Mount Baldy in the mountain town. The girl's sudden change in lifestyle does not escape notice. Mary Lou Young is one of Jack's friends.

[Detective/Investigator]

All of a sudden they appear with all these marvelous vehicles. And the blonde one would drive the white Corvette. The brown haired one had a Jeep. They had the biggest Ford made SUV Excursion. Yeah, and then they had this bigger motorhome.

[Narrator]

Within a few weeks, Irwin's friends are ready to go to the police.

[Detective/Investigator]

And the girls came down from Mount Baldy. We were doing some yard work and I approached both of them and I said, so have we heard from Jack yet? Oh, no, we're getting really concerned. I said, so are we. So I think today we're going to report him missing. Well, that's exactly why we came down the hill, because that's what we're going to do today. Initially it was kind of a routine missing person case.

[Narrator]

Marty Thouvenel is the former police chief in upland. In 1999, he supervises the investigation into Jack Irwin's disappearance.

[Detective/Investigator]

Through the initial investigation, they never did no sightings of Mr. Irwin. No contact, no indication of where he went or if he had ever gone actually to LA or Seattle.

[Narrator]

By the end of 1999, it becomes apparent that Jack isn't coming back and his friends grow frustrated.

[Detective/Investigator]

Almost everybody in the cul de sac came out to find out what the police department was here about and why and where was he. Matter of fact, one time we were going to put a banner across the garage and put where's Jack? Because that was the thing. Where's Jack? It eventually just quietly disappeared. We didn't hear from anybody. So I just figured, Jack's gone and nobody cares.

[Narrator]

Jack Irwin's case grows cold until two years later when Chief Thuvenel attends lunch with a colleague.

[Detective/Investigator]

I happened to be at a luncheon with District attorney at that time Dennis Stout and I had gotten information that he had just started up an elder abuse unit and had assigned several DA investigators to that unit. Like from the minute we picked up the report, myself as well as the others that wrote it thought that he'd been killed.

[Narrator]

DA investigator Maury Weiss is assigned the case. He believes Irwin has met with foul play but has no body to prove his theory. With no other leads to follow, Weiss takes a look at Irwin's bank account, which he discovers is emptying rapidly.

[Detective/Investigator]

They had access to his bank account. They went to the bank. They were put on the signature card so they could withdraw money. Shortly after that time, Jack was never seen again.

[Narrator]

As a trustee on Jack's account, Marsha Johnson has the authority to write and cash checks, almost all of them made out to herself.

[Detective/Investigator]

The money was gone before the end of the year, about $77,000.

[Narrator]

Weiss believes Johnson to be a con artist and perhaps a killer. It's a feeling that develops into outright suspicion when he learns about a fire on Mount Baldy.

[Detective/Investigator]

I was standing with my friend and she yelled, jack's cabin is on fire. Yeah, we still got fire coming out the roof here. Yeah, we need to get some water that.

[Narrator]

On August 11, 2000, fire breaks out at a cabin belonging to Marsha Johnson and Judy Gellert. They are the chief suspects in the disappearance of Jack Irwin, the man who sold them the cabin and wrote them into his will. As the home goes up in smoke, Irwin's friend and former neighbor Mary Lou Young approaches firefighters.

[Detective/Investigator]

And I said, I would would suggest that someone look for bones underneath that cabin. And he said, what do you mean? I said, well, the man has gone missing that sold this cabin to these women.

[Narrator]

Investigators pick through the ashes, but find no bones. Or clothing. And no trace of Jack Irwin.

[Detective/Investigator]

The first time we came up here, this is the area that the driveway that Jack had built that went up to the cabin.

[Narrator]

Maury Weiss is an investigator with the San Bernardino County District Attorney. When he picks up the case in 2001, the investigation into Irwin's disappearance has gone cold.

[Detective/Investigator]

We came up here looking for things that may look for evidence to the arson that would lead us toward that.

[Narrator]

Weiss suspects that the fire was set deliberately, but not to dispose of Jacarwin's remains.

[Detective/Investigator]

I thought it was mainly for the insurance money. Marsha had filed a claim for a burglary about a month prior to the fire and got some money that way. And it was just another way to get some more money, I believe.

[Narrator]

In talking with the insurance investigator, Weiss picks up a bit of gossip, not about the fire, but about Marsha Johnson's personal life. She is suing her former therapist for alleged sexual abuse.

[Detective/Investigator]

She'd indicated that she had a sexual relationship with the therapist, and due to the statements Marsha made in regards to that, is why she ended up filing the suit.

[Narrator]

If there are skeletons in Marsha Johnson's closet, Weiss figures they might surface in a contentious lawsuit. On August 28, 2002, he obtains depositions from the suit and begins to read.

[Detective/Investigator]

As I started reading through the deposition, I realized that Ms. Martin had indicated under oath that Marsha Johnson admitted to her that she had killed Jack and dismembered his body and spread it around Mount Walden.

[Narrator]

According to therapist Dr. Martin's recorded deposition, Marsha told her, I shot him in the back of the neck. The therapist then said under oath, I don't know if it was a saw or an axe, but she said she cut him up. She cut him into pieces.

[Detective/Investigator]

That was the first information we had. The word. Marsha hadn't made any comments to anyone that we were aware of regarding the murder of Jack Irwin.

[Narrator]

The lawyers involved in the civil suit never contacted police, and so a possible confession to murder was buried. Now Maury Weiss hopes to find Jack Irwin's body and put Marsha Johnson behind bars.

[Detective/Investigator]

We're not going to take this case away from you, but definitely need some help. Yeah, I did need some help.

[Narrator]

Cold Case Files is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your Progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can Enjoy savings When you choose the best rate for you, give it a try after this [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Is the movie business in peril?

[Detective/Investigator]

We've all heard that before. I'm veteran producer Todd Garner, host of the Producer's Guide podcast. Some of my credits include Con air, Anger Management, xxx 13, going on 30 and the mortal Kombat franchise. I'm here to address the biggest burning questions facing Hollywood today. Is the next big strike strike on the horizon?

[Narrator]

Will studio consolidation affect industry jobs? Are we getting closer to AI generated features?

[Detective/Investigator]

Is there a real difference between movies and content anymore? Some of my past guests include Adam.

[Narrator]

Sandler, Rebel Wilson, Jeff Probst, Eli Roth.

[Detective/Investigator]

Ed Helms and Kevin James.

[Narrator]

Join me on the front lines every Thursday. Get new audio or video episodes of.

[Detective/Investigator]

The Producer's Guide wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator]

Bobby Dean and Chris Elvert are homicide detectives with the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department. In the fall of 2002, Weiss tells them about the statements from Marsha Johnson's therapist and asks for help.

[Detective/Investigator]

Two facts in this case we had to establish a Was this privileged communication between Marsha and a therapist doctor patient relationship, or was it between friends or lovers? She said, Debbie, I did kill Jack. And then the rest of the to do my deposition.

[Narrator]

On September 30, Albert sits down with Dr. Martin, who is more than willing to talk in detail about Johnson's alleged confession.

[Detective/Investigator]

So I was sitting on the sofa and she came over to the sofa and she said something to the effect of Debbie, I I did kill Jack. And I giggled because I thought she was teething. I thought she was kidding. And she established clearly that they were no longer doctor patient relationship and that she had stopped by. And it was during that evening that Marsha admitted to Deborah Martin that she in fact killed Jack Irwin. She said that he was helping her either chop wood or move wood, and he turned around and called her dirty girl. And that made her very angry. So she went into the bathroom and she said, she sat there and said something like I'm gonna kill him. I'm gonna kill him. And she went and got the gun and she walked outside and his back was toward her and she said, she like aimed like put the gun up and I shot him. She sawed him into pieces, took his body part and sawed him into pieces and wrapped him in and I forget if she said Saran Wrap or tin foil, but I believe she Said like Saran Wrap type thing last.

[Narrator]

Dr. Martin's statement is good, but by itself is not enough to make a case for murder.

[Detective/Investigator]

Yeah, without a statement coming from one or both of them, there was no way it was gonna. You know, we, we all knew what happened, we thought, but there was no way it was gonna get to court without something coming from one of the two of them. That's when Bobby made the comment that he felt a wiretap would be a good way to go with it. Made a lot of cases on wire intercepts. It's a good tool and it's very useful for homicide cases, particularly if you know how to manipulate it. Plan out your case, strategize your movements. After your wire intercepts are in place, you can solve just about anything. Susan, it's me. Listen, you need to call me. A lot more has happened and I need to. To say goodbye. Just please call me. Because the game's all over. Hello, dear. They're confiscating. They just confiscated the expedition. What? Homicide prime went from San Bernardino town. What?

[Narrator]

This is a police wiretap of a phone call between Marsha Johnson and Judy Gellert. Police believe the two killed 71 year old Jack Irwin two years earlier, dismembered him and disposed of the pieces by driving into the wilderness of nearby Mount Baldy.

[Detective/Investigator]

If our facts were correct, which we believe they were, it was very important to let them know what the facts were. And by taking that expedition, not knowing how much blood evidence could be confiscated out of that was when they really felt like we knew exactly what had happened. They had a search warrant. It's like really pretty intense. I know, I know, but we need socks. Big time. Big time. Judy wasn't a happy camper. We wanted to put as much pressure motivating factors on both Judy and Marcia the at the same time so they would converse about why all these things were taking place at this time and what information did they think that the police were aware of. The main thing is you cannot be charged with anything by association. Judy, just because you knew me and I did things does not mean that you are going to get in any kind of trouble. The tone of voice escalated. You could tell the panic was coming in on them. They knew at that point that basically the case was made.

[Narrator]

Marsha and Judy are scared and beginning to make mistakes. Just a few hours after the expedition is confiscated, Marcia makes a call to her aunt.

[Detective/Investigator]

Hello? Martini? Yeah. Hi Marcia. Hi.

[Narrator]

Listen. What?

[Detective/Investigator]

Are you okay? No, it's all over. Everything's over. I just Want you to do me one favor. Everything's over. What do you mean? I'm turning myself in for killing Jack. They took the expedition. They confiscated that. They already know. They already know. They're building their case. It's over. Judy's been getting dragged through the mud, so I'm gonna turn myself in. But you need to be there for Judy because she's going to need all the support she can get. Marsha. We let her stay out for a few days after those initial statements regarding her involvement in the murder until she went to a motel in El Cajon and decided to hide out there. And at that point, we felt that she might flee. And so we went down and effected an arrest. At that point, she was very receptive. It was apparent she wanted to talk. We walked up and she said, I'll tell you everything I want to give. Get this off my chest. I want to tell you what happened to Jack. He came up there and he called me a nasty girl.

[Narrator]

On October 11, 2002, Marsha Johnson sits down with Detective Bobby Dean to tell him how and why Jack Irwin died.

[Detective/Investigator]

She's pretty open. She's pretty open. She's not closed up. She's conversational. Very matter of fact. I was pissed. And he was trying to separate me and Judy. He wanted me to be with him. He kept on saying all these bad things about Judy. He wanted me to be with him. And it's like, no, you know, this is my wife. We've been together for a long time. Eventually, she says that Jack was the object of all her problems in her life. Everybody who had mistreated her in the past, all the anger and racist she had ended up on Jack. I don't know. I don't know what happened to me, but I shot him. Shot him in the back of the head. I think it hit him back here somewhere. I know it did. And I'm not a gun smither or anything like that, but apparently I'm a pretty good shot. I was like, oh, my God, what did I do? All of a sudden I see his hand go up and there was blood. Just squirting it out. I mean, squirting out. And I was like, oh, my God, what did I do? So there was a chainsaw underneath the house. And this is really, really hard. I cut his head off. And then I cut both of his hands off the chainsaw. And then I cut both of his feet off. But when I cut his head off, I didn't realize how heavy a head is. It's really heavy. That's pretty telling. If you experience that, you'll remember that. And she did. I started disposing of his body. I put his torso in one area, his head. I just, you know, I took it out of the bag and I just watched it roll down this mountain. It's like, oh my God, I can't even believe this. I can't even believe this. It still does not seem real. And at this point she starts to minimize and try to justify her actions. I think she's also trying to build a defense. This is later. What the defense keyed on is that she was mentally unstable. None of these things ever happened.

[Narrator]

The interview wraps up at 4am with a promise from Marsha to take the detectives to the place on Mount Baldy where she disposed of Jack's body. When morning comes, however, Marsha has had a change of heart.

[Detective/Investigator]

She indicated she wasn't going to do that anymore. It felt good that she may show us where she put the body so we would have a place to at least start looking. But there was a little letdown when we found out, no, she's not going to take us up to the mountain.

[Narrator]

Even without a body, Marsha's confession is enough to bring a charge of first degree murder and a trial date is set. At trial, Marsha Johnson's lawyer claims she is mentally unstable and was delusional when she confessed.

[Detective/Investigator]

I don't know if you've ever had a like where you kind of dream and it seems so real but it's not the truth.

[Narrator]

Marsha Johnson's actions however, paint a cold blooded picture of murder for money. Since Jack Irwin first disappeared, Johnson has siphoned more than $100,000 from his bank account buying a Corvette, a Jeep and an rv. In his closing arguments, the prosecutor produces a cookie jar filled with cookies.

[Detective/Investigator]

And he was using the analogy that if you're a child and your parents leave, you take a cookie out of the cookie jar and you eat it. But you're not going to take them all because mom and dad will know when they come back. In this case the cookie jar being Jack's bank account and didn't leave any cookies, just emptied the cookie jar because she knew Jack was not coming back. As he made the argument, he set the cookie jar and the cookies down on council table. In fact, he did it right in front of Marsha. And as they concluded, Marcia got up to be taken back into the custody facility and she just reached over and picked up all the cookies and said they're mine anyway and walked away with the cookies. So she'll take anything she can get.

[Narrator]

As for Judy Gellert, cold case detectives cannot prove that she took part in the planning or execution of the murder.

[Detective/Investigator]

She was a lot more culpable than I think the case proved against her. I think it could have been very easily planned beforehand. It's almost what you could tell on the wiretaps that they'd been together off the phone and had made this plan of to shield Judy from it.

[Narrator]

Gellert pleads guilty to receiving stolen property and is sentenced to five years of probation.

[Detective/Investigator]

I think they're the worst of all culture we have out there of people preying on the innocent, so to speak. Here you have this elderly man that took them in off the street and they repaid him by killing him and stealing everything he owned.

[Narrator]

5,000Ft above sea level is the rugged spot on Mount Baldy where Jack lived much of his life and where he lost it. It's a place where Jack's friends sometimes return to think about his life.

[Detective/Investigator]

It was one of those things where you feel that you have to do something. We had to do something to stop them if they think they've gotten away with this. And when they run out of Jack's money, who's going to be next? I mean, when she said that she shot him in the back of the head and then took a chainsaw to him. Who gives you the right to do something like that to another human being? That's what I couldn't understand. Stand and I just couldn't let her get away with it.