The Rifkin Murders Part 2

Summary

Cold Case Files: The Rifkin Murders Part 2

Podcast: Cold Case Files (A&E/PodcastOne)
Aired: February 3, 2026
Host/Narrator: Marisa Pinson

---

Overview

This episode delves deeper into the efforts to identify the sixth and ninth victims of notorious New York serial killer Joel Rifkin, nearly three decades after his capture. Investigators Tiffany Attai and Shawn Lammons team up with TV producer Peter Rice and other experts to unravel new clues, using evolving forensic technology and unique investigative strategies. The episode explores the emotional impact of these cold cases on the families of missing women and the investigative team’s relentless pursuit of answers, highlighting both breakthroughs and frustrations in their journey.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reopening the Rifkin Victims’ Cases

• In 2022, almost 30 years after Rifkin's arrest, investigators renew focus on two unidentified victims (victim number six and number nine) using new information drawn from conversations with Rifkin himself.
• Tiffany Attai says, “The goal... is to hopefully find victim number six and identify her and hopefully identify victim number nine.” [00:39]

2. Joel Rifkin’s Changing Story and the Search for the Dump Site

• Rifkin initially claimed to have disposed of victim six in a 55-gallon barrel in the Harlem River but later admits uncertainty about the location. [01:07, 01:31]
• Attai and Lammons analyze Rifkin’s details, focusing on the Bronx River’s narrow, industrial stretches. They conduct aerial surveillance via helicopter, matching his descriptions to possible dump sites near Starlight Park.
  • Attai: “Going up in the helicopter and seeing the area in the Bronx river, it pretty much matched Rifkin's description...” [02:58]
  • Peter Rice: “Being able to go up in a helicopter, get an aerial view was very helpful.” [04:39]

3. Developing Trust with Rifkin

• Investigator Lammons details the moral and emotional conflict of building rapport with a serial killer in hopes of uncovering critical information.
  • “Am I making a deal with the devil...?” [04:17]
• Regular phone calls include casual conversation and mutual updates, which humanize Rifkin enough to keep lines open.

4. DNA and Forensic Roadblocks

• Attai discusses the potential of DNA from recovered earrings linked to a victim, the challenges of degraded samples, and the hope brought by a new partial profile.
  • “We had a partial profile on the pair of earrings. I knew that this was a breakthrough in this case...” [06:59]
  • Forensic Expert: “A partial DNA profile... only eight of those were developed.” [07:13]
• The DNA can't be uploaded to CODIS but is still useful for comparison and genetic genealogy. [07:19]

5. Mapping the Crime Scene

• Attai requests Rifkin draw a map of the dump site to compare his recollections with modern and historical maps.
  • Attai: “I thought if he could put it down, you know, pen to paper, I could see what he's seeing...” [08:41]
• After much prodding, Rifkin sends a remarkably detailed map; the coincidence of the date (Lammons’ birthday) brings up Rifkin’s penchant for significance in dates. [20:54]
• Investigators analyze the map with aerial photos to narrow the focus near Starlight Park and associated industrial landmarks. [21:46]

6. Exploring Potential Victims – Family Involvement

• Judith Veloz: Suspected as victim six or nine due to timing and circumstances. Investigator Attai contacts her family, including sister Sue Ona and daughter Arlis Jones, only to rule Judith out based on timeline discrepancies.

  • Sue Ona: “Judith was our older sister, and she was our role model. In my eyes, she was like superwoman.” [14:56]
  • Arlis Jones: “I never really felt or really thought that she was completely passed. I definitely always hoped... she’d still be alive.” [15:55]

• Attai helps the family initiate a renewed missing persons search and DNA comparison. [16:43]

• Marilyn Mara: Another forum-suggested possible victim, her daughter Tanya Papagianikis describes the agony of uncertainty.

  • Tanya: “I think the hardest part is not knowing. It's very difficult to have someone you love just vanish.” [19:12]
  • Timeline again rules out a direct link, but Attai persists in following up with Rifkin and showing him relevant photos. [20:01]

7. The Search for Victim Nine’s Remains on Hart Island

• Bill Simon (retired NYPD) explains the logistical and historical difficulties of recovering bodies from Hart Island’s mass graves:
  • “There are roughly over a million bodies buried on Hart Island... It is off limits to the general public. People who were poor, they couldn't afford burial. People that were unidentified and prisoners.” [24:35]
• Despite organized efforts, the remains of victim nine remain unfound. The search underscores the heartbreak and the persistence required. [26:28]

8. Building Towards Face-to-Face With Rifkin

• As the scheduled in-person interview with Rifkin approaches, investigators experience anxiety over his recent withdrawal from communication.
  • Attai: “Peter had mentioned that Rifkin kind of went radio silent and wasn’t talking to him... we still have to go up to Dannemora for the Rifkin interview and see where it brings us.” [30:25]
  • The episode concludes with the team preparing photos, DNA evidence, maps, and aerial footage—hoping to resolve key questions about the unnamed victims.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Investigator Shawn Lammons (on negotiating with Rifkin):

  “Am I making a deal with the devil and speaking to Rifkin and befriending him to try to get information? Maybe, but he's the only one that has this information. I can't find these answers on my own.” [04:17]

• Joel Rifkin (on his memory of the dump site):

  “This creek, I've never been able to find it in anything... That whole area does turn it back north, coming left. So anywhere in here you think? Yeah, here, bent where it turns, I think there was like a freight railroad line.” [01:57, 02:32]

• Investigator Tiffany Attai (on hope and frustration):

  “There was always that thought in the back of my mind that it’s a long shot... But then six weeks after we submitted the pair of earrings... we had a partial profile... that DNA could help us in identifying victim six.” [06:41-06:59]

• Arlis Jones (Judith’s daughter):

  “I still feel the possibility that she still could be alive.” [17:58]

• Bill Simon (on Hart Island):

  "When you go to dig in a mass grave with bodies that have been in that grave for 30, 40 years... you're finding pine bones, mud, water. But there's always hope. You can't say that anything's finished.” [25:37]

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:39-02:58: Reconstructing the victim six dump site via aerial surveys.
• 06:41-08:09: DNA developments and investigative genealogy efforts.
• 14:53-16:43: Interview with Judith Veloz’s family and elimination as a Rifkin victim.
• 19:08-20:38: Family of Marilyn Mara shares pain and hopes for closure.
• 21:46-23:08: Investigators analyze Rifkin’s hand-drawn map.
• 24:30-26:28: Hart Island and the challenges of exhuming mass graves for identification.
• 30:25-33:16: The lead-up to the highly anticipated face-to-face interview with Rifkin.
• 33:19-end: Reflection, anticipation, and unresolved tension as the episode closes in anticipation of Part 3.

---

Summary & Tone

The episode balances procedural detail with personal stories from families, investigators, and experts. It captures the relentless, sometimes morally ambiguous work of solving cold cases and the human cost borne by those waiting decades for answers. The narrative remains empathetic yet analytical, driving home the rarity and importance of breakthroughs in cold cases: “Sometimes it's a long shot that'll solve a case. You can't leave any stone unturned.” [18:07]

---

Next Episode Tease:
The saga continues as the investigators finally sit down for a pivotal interview with Joel Rifkin, hoping for crucial revelations about his victims—a critical turning point in the quest for closure for the families and justice for the unidentified women.

Transcript

[Narrator]

This program contains subject matter that may be disturbing to some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. There are over 100,000 cold cases in America. Only 1% are ever solved. This is one of those rare stories. In 2022, 29 years after the arrest of serial killer Joel Rifk, investigators Tiffany Attai and Shawn Lammons are searching for the identities of his sixth and ninth victims.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

The goal of this investigation, looking into the new leads that Peter had got from Rifkin, is to hopefully find victim number six and identify her and hopefully identify victim number nine. Rifkin had given a description of where he dumped the barrel with victim number six.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

When I talked to Rifkin on the phone, what he told me was that he used a 55 gallon barrel to dispose of her body in a waterway around New York that he wasn't sure of which waterway it was.

[Joel Rifkin]

Now, number six, look for a creek. It couldn't be more than 15, 20 foot wide.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

In 1993, Rifkin had told senior investigator Louder that he disposed of victim number six in a 55 gallon drum and dumped her in the Harlem River. They searched the river, but she's never been found.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

But then he told me that that's just kind of what he thought at the time, but didn't really know it was the Harlem River.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

The new information that Rifkin gave about the waterway where he disposed victim number six did not match the Harlem river at all. I focused in on the Bronx river because of, you know, how narrow it is. So my next steps is going up in the helicopter and seeing it, you know, live in aerial view.

[Joel Rifkin]

This creek, I've never been able to find it in anything. I don't think it was more than 20, 30ft across. I went over a little bridge. I remember mostly that whole road was recycling centers and junkyards. We're up to basically Bronx Zoo now. So you want to try and go back. You don't mind? Okay.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Rifkin had given a description of the waterway being narrow. There was a bend in the river where he dumped the barrel.

[Joel Rifkin]

It jumped out. That whole area does turn it back north, coming left. So anywhere in here you think? Yeah, here, bent where it turns, I think there was like a freight railroad line. This whole heavy industry recycling and the auto parts junkyards. And it was just one after another after another.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Going up in the helicopter and seeing the area in the Bronx river, it pretty much matched Rifkin's description where he said that the river took a bend. There was railroad across the way and there was auto salvage yards.

[Narrator]

In 2021, TV producer Peter Rice began speaking to Rifkin by phone at the Clinton Correctional Facility in Denemora, N.Y. rice had initially met Rifkin in 2004 while producing a documentary about the biological causes of violence.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

I know investigator Tai has been working hard to identify where Rifkin disposed of victim number six. And I'm constantly trying to develop a closer relationship with Rifkin so that I can get more information from him. My relationship with Rifkin is complicated because I am befriending, in many ways, an evil person, someone that brought great misery and tragedy to a lot of people's lives. But in order to get him to trust me, I talk to him like a normal person, and I tell him things are going on in my life, and I ask him about things that are going on in his life.

[Joel Rifkin]

How are you feeling after the shot? Good. I didn't have any of the side effects. Now that people are getting vaccinated, are things returning to normal? So far, so good.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

Am I making a deal with the devil and speaking to Rifkin and befriending him to try to get information? Maybe, but he's the only one that has this information. I can't find these answers on my own. What I can do is leverage my relationship with Rifkin to get information that hopefully the police can use to try to get these women's families answers.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

All right, so this is the area we're over today. Being able to go up in a helicopter, get an aerial view was very helpful. Certain things and pictures on the ground just didn't translate the same as being in the helicopter.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Go a little bit further north. Yeah, keep going right up there.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

It's even more narrow.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

How narrow is that portion of the river?

[Investigator Peter Rice]

About 25ft. I think it fits. Has the two bends, bridge tracks on the opposite side.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Yeah, I feel like that fits as well.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

Between all the information from the helicopter flight and after looking at some historical maps and some current maps, Tiffany was able to narrow down on an area of the Bronx River, Starlight Park.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Starlight park is a park in the Bronx. It is about 13 acres. It's basically reconstructed and an expanded park from what it was back in the day.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

We would have to probably get back in the area on foot or even get a boat on the water.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Yeah, we'd have to see if we can navigate that area, but we gotta start somewhere and then we can go from there. Victim number six. There was two ways to attack it, and we're working both. One way is to Locate where he dumped this victim and find out if she's still there. If we find her remains, we can potentially get DNA that can be used for investigative genetic genealogy. So I felt good about identifying victim number six specifically. Specifically by finding her. And then the second step was, hopefully we get DNA on the earrings. But I had some doubt about getting DNA from those earrings because of the amount of time that had passed. And, you know, DNA degrades over time. I didn't think we would get a sample from those earrings at all. So there was always that thought in the back of my mind that it's a long shot that we're going to get any DNA. But then six weeks after we submitted the pair of earrings and the single earring to the New York State Forensic Investigation center, we received results in a lab report. We had a partial profile on the pair of earrings. I knew that this was a breakthrough in this case because that DNA could help us in identifying victim six.

[Forensic Expert]

So a partial DNA profile indicates that not all of the locations that we look for along the human genome have produced data. We look specifically for 24 locations along the human genome, and in this case, only eight of those were developed.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

A full sample is a sample that could be uploaded into codis.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

CODIS is the Combined DNA Index System, which is a DNA database maintained by the FBI.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

CODIS allows us to try to identify DNA from a crime scene.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

We don't have that. We have a partial sample which is suitable for comparison and investigative genetic genealogy based on the quality and quantity of the DNA. So after we learned that they obtained a partial DNA profile, it made me want to speak to Rifkin to just make sure that this pair is the pair that he is describing and what he remembers, because he told Peter a pair of earrings, and then he changed it to a single earring.

[Joel Rifkin]

It's also one of the few things that's not in a pair. So it is just one earring. Yeah.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

I had started to arrange meeting with Rifkin, but as much as you want to go talk to somebody early on, you have to have your ducks in a row and have all the information you need to conduct a good interview, and that takes time.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

Before her meeting with Rifkin, Investigator Ty asked me to try to get as much detailed information from Rifkin about the river that he disposed of the body of victim number six. And eventually Investigator Atai had the idea of Rifkin drawing a map.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

I felt like Starlight park really fit the area, and it could be a breakthrough in the case. I just wasn't 100% sure. So I thought if he could put it down, you know, pen to paper, I could see what he's seeing as opposed to interpreting his description.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

So I started to prod him and ask him to draw this map that Investigator Ataya had asked for. But then he didn't do anything for a long time.

[Joel Rifkin]

Hey, thanks for calling. How are you? Good. I got your email. Yeah, cool. Yeah, no worries. I just hadn't heard from you in a while and I wanted to check in. All right. Are you still sending or did you send the mask? No.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

Even though he is interested in working with me, I don't think Rifkin feels completely comfortable cooperating with police.

[Joel Rifkin]

How are you feeling about where this is all going? Are you still comfortable with trying to help out for these two victims and families? Oh, yeah. Well, good. Well, I've been talking with Tiffany, and I know she's going to be coming up to visit you. Oh, okay.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

I assumed he was going to be helpful and give them actionable information, but at the same time, I feel like he is conflicted with talking to police.

[Narrator]

Five months into the investigation, Rice speaks to Rifkin again.

[Joel Rifkin]

Do you guys get anything special on Thanksgiving Day there? Did they serve you turkey and stuffing or anything? We get this. The imitation, like turkey, roll, stuffing. They measure the cranberry sauce with, like, a teaspoon. So one I wanted to go back to, you know. Any chance you're going to send that map that you were talking about? Yes. All right, cool.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

So another investigative avenue that I took to be prepared for the interview with Rifkin was finding photos of women who could be victims six or nine. If we look at girls who were arrested for prostitution back during that time period, who kind of what I call fall off the grid. If I could obtain those photos and show them to Rifkin, he might remember one of them resembling or being victim six or nine. I focused in on the specific areas where he said he picked up the victims. And obviously with the time period, I had NYPD pull those photos from their records to bring to Shota Rifkin. And also I looked at the case files and noticed that the investigators back then had a list of women that they were crossing off as either being a victim or they were able to determine that they were alive. One specifically was Judith Veloz. She was on the list, but she wasn't crossed off. So I started looking into her to see what that was about. There was no footprint for her, no arrest. It just seemed like she fell off the face of the Earth. What happened to Judith? You know, where is she?

[Narrator]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Have you ever noticed how February has a way of putting relationships under a microscope? Everywhere you look it's flowers, chocolate, grand romantic gestures. And meanwhile, the rest of us are just trying to keep our plants alive. And remember date night. It's easy to feel like everyone else has it figured out, but honestly, many people are still learning what love actually looks like. Therapy can be a huge help in that process. It gives you space to figure out what you want, what's been feeling heavy, and where you might be putting too much pressure on yourself. BetterHelp makes getting started really simple. They've got over 30,000 licensed therapists and their matching system does the work for you. Just fill out a quick questionnaire and they'll pair you with someone who fits your goals. And if it's not the right match, you can switch anytime. More than 6 million people globally have used BetterHelp, and client reviews average 4.9 out of 5 stars for live sessions. So if love feels a little confusing right now, whether you're in a relationship, single or somewhere in between, know that you're not alone. Therapy can help you clear the fog and find your way forward. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] cold case that's better. H E L P.com cold case it's a new year and for a lot of us that means wanting to get back to feeling like ourselves. If One of your 2026 goals is to lose weight and actually see progress, you can trust Weight loss by hers might be the right fit for you. Hers connects you with a licensed medical provider who will determine if personalized treatment is right for you. If prescribed, your plan can include oral medication kits or GLP1 injectables along with lifestyle and nutrition tips, dosage adjustments and 247 support, all designed to fit your pace and your goals. Plus everything happens 100% online so you can focus on the day to day changes that matter most, with options starting at just $69 per month on a 10 month plan when paid upfront in full. Hers makes real results accessible with no hidden fees or complicated memberships. Just support that lasts. Feel like your best self again? Visit forhers.comccf to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you that's F O-R H E R S.comccf fourhers.com CCF Weight Loss by hers is not available everywhere. Compounded drug products are not approved or evaluated for safety, effectiveness or quality by the fda. Prescription required. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions. Actual price depends on product and plan purchased.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

In any investigation, you don't know where it's going to lead you. In this case specifically, it led me to Judith, who might be a Rifkin victim. What's interesting about Judith Veloz is that she kind of fit the profile as a sex worker who went missing back during that time period. So I started looking into her to see what that was about. I was able to get current contact information for one of her sisters, and I reached out to her.

[Narrator]

Sue Ona is Judith Veloz's sister.

[Sue Ona]

Judith was our older sister, and she was our role model. In my eyes, she was like superwoman. Judith was in high school when she ran away. She was about 19 years old when we found out that she was pregnant. And I was just so happy for her. But then In February of 93, my mom called me and told me that Judith is missing. Her partner had said that he dropped her off somewhere and came back for her, and she wasn't there. I didn't know back then that her partner was actually her pimp. I don't know what happened with my sister, but what I can assure you is that she would have never left her baby.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

She was a wonderful mom, and she loved her daughter.

[Narrator]

Arlis Jones is Judith Veloz's daughter.

[Arlis Jones]

I was born in New York, May 9, 1992. I don't have any memory of my mom. I wish I did, but I don't. My grandmother raised me along with Aunt Sue. I never really felt or really thought that she was completely passed. I definitely always hoped and thought that there was a possibility that she'd still be alive. When Investigator Atai contacted me, I actually watched a documentary on Joel Rifkin. It was a lot to process, the way he did things. It was a little traumatic to even think that my mom could have been one of his victims.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

So after speaking with Judith's sister and daughter, I learned that she didn't fit being a Rifkin victim. Based on the timeline, victim number six went missing in the fall of 1991, and victim number nine was from 1992. And Judith went missing in March of 1993. So it was way after victim six and victim number nine. She just didn't fit in the timeline based on the last contact people had with her. I was frustrated. But also, they're a family that has no answers. I thought it was important to help the family and, you know, get her reported as A missing person. I mean, she could be an unidentified human remains in another state. Getting DNA from Drew, this sister and daughter is important too. So those can be compared to unidentified human remains that are actually available for comparison. I want to do that.

[Arlis Jones]

I'm so grateful for Tiffany. She's definitely renewed my drive for answers.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

And so many good things came out of this case, and that's one of them. We're bringing light to a woman who has been missing since 1993.

[Arlis Jones]

I want our story to be told, and I still feel hopeful. I still feel the possibility that she still could be alive.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Sometimes it's a long shot that'll solve a case. You can't leave any stone unturned. You have to exhaust every lead. I went to open source data, which is websites, social media, looking for anybody maybe talking about a family member who they're looking for. And I found a forum which was talking about a woman by the name of Marilyn Mara. And in reading all of the comments on this forum, a lot of people were indicating that Marilyn might be a Rifkin victim. So I started to look into Marilyn Mara, and I found that she had a NAMUS profile. NAMUS is the National Missing and Unidentified Person System. It's a resource center for all cases involving unidentified missing and unclaimed persons in the United States. The daughter of Marilyn was on these forums, so I thought it was important to reach out to her.

[Narrator]

Tanya Papagianikis is Marilyn Mara's daughter.

[Tanya Papagianikis]

I was 14 when my mother went missing. I think the hardest part is not knowing. It's very difficult to have someone you love just vanish. My grandparents raised us, and even though my mother was pretty heavily involved in prostitution and drugs, she could get her act together for long enough to be with us and create memories. And when she was with us, she was a really good mom. My grandmother, before she passed, made me promise her, don't ever stop looking for your mom. Just do whatever you can do. When Tiffany first ran, reached out to me, she just kind of was asking, you know, questions to see the timing my mother went missing.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Victim number six went missing in the fall of 1991. Victim number nine was recovered in 1992, and her mother was last seen in the summer of 1990. So it was a whole year prior. Although the timeline might not fit. I'm going to talk to Rifkin and I will show her photo and see if he recognizes her.

[Tanya Papagianikis]

Ideally, I wouldn't want to know that that's how my mother's life ended, but at the same time, it's really important for me to get an answer so that I can kind of put it to bed.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Going through the list of women, that took time. But then I knew that I was going to interview Rifkin. I wanted to be of part prepared. And in being prepared, I wanted to make sure that I had enough information to bring up to him. It's just a matter of time.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

So eventually, after me prodding Rifkin several times to draw the map, he did draw a map and sent it to me in the mail. And he sent a letter with the map to me, and it was dated on my birthday. Whether or not he knew it was my birthday, I have no idea. But I know that dates and anniversaries are very important to Rifkin. I'll talk to you again Monday after Hanukkah. Until then, peace, Joel. It was surreal. It was so detailed. It had so much information on it. And it's obvious that he had put a lot of effort into it. And, you know, I was sitting there thinking, is this map going to lead us to victim number six?

[Narrator]

It's December 2021. Six months into the investigation, investigators Atai and Lemons meet to discuss new information.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

I just got some stuff from Peter. Rifkin wrote a letter and drew a map of the area as how he remembers it when he dumped victim six.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

Okay.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

That's the map. In the letter, he writes, hi, Peter. Here's the map, which I've been mentioning for the past couple of months. I think that it gives a fair idea of what I've been trying to explain. And then this is also the aerial photos that we got from New York City then and now from 1996 of the area that we're focused on.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

Right by the park, correct?

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Yep, by Starlight park and where all those salvage yards are. Okay. You know, I'm trying to compare it to this. There's a lot of similarities.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

The tracks, the oil salvage yards. You know, those are big things to remember.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

And he writes here that this is a culvert or a bridge.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

Right.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

And he obviously doesn't know what's under it. Like, is there a water flow or is it just a bump in the road?

[Investigator Peter Rice]

Is there anything like that that matches it when we're in that area? I don't remember.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Well, he draws a triangle here. And if you see up on the box, he indicates small triangle, three to five truck lengths long, two to three at widest. I mean, when you look at this map, do you see some triangles here.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

That could be in this area?

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Yeah, right. Here. So, yeah, you have two triangles. I just. I'm not seeing what that hump is that he's talking about. So at that point, I knew that I was ready to interview Rifkin. I knew the pivoting point to move this case forward is going to be the interview. But then Covid was a huge factor at the time in the jail.

[Joel Rifkin]

So what, you got boosted? That's great news. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome. That's gotta make you feel a little better. Even though, Omicron, you still get sick, but you don't end up in the hospital. Yeah. And right now it's hitting this. And that's why we're on a partial Covid slowdown and all kinds of things are going on.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

The only thing left to do was wait.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

The interview that the investigators wanted to do with Rifkin took a while to schedule. As time went by, I wanted to follow up on victim number nine. Investigator Atai had made the request for an exhumation. And after that it's pretty much a waiting game. So I reached out to them and I learned that the office of the Chief Medical examiner of New York City was having trouble finding the remains of victim number nine. I didn't really know exactly what that meant because I thought that she was going to be the easy one to identify.

[Narrator]

Bill Simon is a retired detective with the New York City Police Department.

[Bill Simon]

The office of the Chief Medical examiner is in charge of all the the bodies in New York City. So we work hand in hand together. We make the request, they accept the request to retrieve the body and then have it re examined. I made the request to the OCME to exhume the body. It had to be right away. Victim number nine is buried on Hart Island. Hart island is restricted only to family members. It is off limits to the general public. People who were poor, they couldn't afford burial. People that were unidentified and prisoners. This is the spot that the city has designated as the cemetery for those people. They started burying bodies there in the late 1800s. There are roughly over a million bodies buried on Hart Island. You can see the markers showing where the grave sites are. They are mass grave. I believe it's 100 to 150 per grave per site. And the markers indicate each burial plot. Victim number nine is on plot 226. When I made the request to OCME, they acted on it right away. And whenever they schedule crews to come out here to the island, they went and they searched for the body. But they're going out to an island with various environmental conditions which have changed over the time to go dig in a mass grave with bodies that have been in that grave for 30, 40 years. I call maybe every couple months, say, hey, any luck? Any luck? No. When they went to the site, you know, they dig and as you're digging, you're not finding a pine box intact. You're finding pine bones, mud, water. But there's always hope. You can't say that anything's finished.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

When I reached out to ocme, they told me that they are actively looking for her body and that they still hope to find it. But it's been a long time and they still haven't found her body.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

So, you know, there was different ways to attack. Identifying victim number nine, and specifically the ones that I could help with was with photos of women. There was some potentials matching the description of victim number nine. He might remember one of them resembling or being victim number nine. So I figured I could attack the case that way.

[Joel Rifkin]

So what's new? Can't think of her last name. Tiffany. Yep. And she's coming up for what could be considered a police interview.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

I was told that I was gonna interview Rifkin in person on May 2, 2022. I was feeling a little bit nervous, but also excited.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

I wasn't sure how Rifkin was going to receive the police in prison. I wasn't sure how comfortable he was going to be and how forthcoming he was going to be. And then Rifkin just went completely dark on me. No more phone calls, no more emails. I didn't know what to make of Rifkin's silence. Was he stopping cooperating with me? Was he getting cold feet? Was he getting second thoughts about helping investigators to try to identify these two women? I had no idea. I would email him over and over again. Nothing, nothing, nothing.

[Narrator]

I've always loved the idea of learning a new language. It's one of those skills that really stays with you. And there's something so satisfying about hearing yourself start to understand and speak naturally. That feeling of wait, I actually know what they just said is seriously rewarding. Rosetta Stone makes that process easier and honestly, a lot more fun. They've been the trusted leader in language Learning for over 30 years with 25 languages to choose from. Spanish, French, Japanese, you name it. What makes them stand out is how immersive it is. No endless vocabulary lists or translations, just learning the language the way you'd pick it up in real life. And their true accent technology even gives you instant feedback on pronunciation. So you sound more natural right from the start. You can fit lessons into your day anytime, on your phone, your laptop, whenever you have a few minutes. And their lifetime membership gives you access to all 25 languages forever. So you can start one now and pick up another later. If learning something new is on your list this year, try Rosetta Stone and start building a skill you'll carry with you for life. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. Cold Case Files. Listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com Coldcase to get started and claim your 50% off today. Go to RosettaStone.com Coldcase and start learning today. Homes.com knows that when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks and transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. And when I say in depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in one place. Homes.com, we've done your homework. It's now May 2022, five days before investigator Atai's interview with Rifkin.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Peter had mentioned that Rifkin kind of went radio silent and wasn't talking to him. So I was a little nervous that maybe he was getting cold feet or he was worried we might be getting close to figuring something out that he really doesn't want us to figure out. But we still have to go up to Dannemore for the Rifkin interview and see where it brings us. This is a huge interview that's going to hopefully be the tipping point to potentially identify victim number six and number nine. My plan before I leave for this interview is to call Tanya, the daughter of Marilyn Mara. You know, just keep her in the loop. Hello? Hi, Tanya, it's Tiffany. How are you?

[Tanya Papagianikis]

Good, how are you?

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Good. So I just wanted to let you know that I am going up to talk to Rifkin. And as soon as I'm done, I'm gonna give you a call and let you know what he says.

[Joel Rifkin]

Okay.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

So how are you feeling?

[Tanya Papagianikis]

I feel okay. I hope that, you know, you'll be able to get, like, some answers, not only for me, but for you and.

[Joel Rifkin]

And for the other families.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

We'll see what happens. And, you know, if he doesn't recognize your mom as one of his victims, maybe he recognizes her from the streets back then. Maybe he knows something. So I'm hopeful.

[Tanya Papagianikis]

I don't know if I necessarily feel one way or another whether he'll be forthcoming or not, but I really. I definitely trust Tiffany 100%.

[Joel Rifkin]

Okay. Well, good luck.

[Tanya Papagianikis]

All my love and good vibes.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Thank you. I appreciate it. So I just want to go over everything before we go up.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

Ok, Sounds good.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

Make sure I'm not forgetting anything.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

And, yeah, you show me all the books that you have prepared, and we can kind of go over it a little bit.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

So I think the first thing we do when we get there is have him pick out whether it was the pair or the single earring. I don't want him to think, oh, I see a pair automatically. It's not it.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

Right.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

What I did was I isolated it so the pair is isolated as a single. Okay. And the single is a single. I'm also bringing up the video from when we went up in the helicopter. And then the aerial photos you took when we were up in the helicopter are in there as well.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

Start showing things and then see where he runs with it.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

I also have all the female photographs in here. I was feeling a little bit nervous that I don't have everything. I knew there were some photos that we didn't have, but also excited that there's the potential that he might pick out the exact area or. Or he might pick out one of the females as being six or nine. I think with everything that we have, something is he's gonna remember something. Yeah, no, definitely where he dumps six. Or if any of these girls fit as being six or nine. Yeah. We could throw all this stuff in a box.

[Investigator Peter Rice]

Pretty much everything we've done over the past few months have all kind of come to a head. At this point.

[Investigator Tiffany Attai]

The only feeling I have is hope to get answers. But there's always the possibility that Rifkin changes his mind and doesn't want to talk to us.

[Narrator]

It's now one day before the Rifkin interview.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

I am in Dannemore, New York, for the face to face meeting that investigators have with Rifkin tomorrow. I wasn't allowed to go in with them because they're doing an active investigation, but because this was proving to be such a big moment in the case, they were kind enough to allow me to come to Dannemora and just be there with them to get the latest information. There is definitely some anxiety about what's going on with Rifkin right now. What's he thinking? Why did he stop communicating?

[Narrator]

We will return with part three of the Rifkin Murders next week on Cold Case Files. Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows.

[Forensic Expert]

This is the mindset.

[Bill Simon]

Free.

[Forensic Expert]

This is the mantra.

[Bill Simon]

Free.

[Narrator]

This is the time to with movies like Joe dirt, pixels and 51st date.

[Joel Rifkin]

This is awesome.

[Forensic Expert]

And TV shows like Survivor, SpongeBob SquarePants.

[Narrator]

The Fairly Odd Parents and Ghosts, Pluto.

[Forensic Expert]

TV is always free.

[Narrator]

Huzzah. Pluto TV stream now pay. Never.

[Investigator Shawn Lammons]

You're welcome.

[Forensic Expert]

Comfort is often the first thing we're willing to give up. But don't let style be the reason you aren't comfy. Mack Weldon's Ace Collection makes it effortless to look put together while feeling truly com comfortable. Inspired by their bestselling sweatpants, the Ace Collection combines everyday comfort with long lasting and confident looks. Upgrade your collection for the new year with new bomber jackets, half zips, sweats, crew necks, and much more. Go to Macweldon.com and get 20% off your first order of $125 or more with promo code MAC25.