The Rifkin Murders Part 3

Summary

Cold Case Files: The Rifkin Murders Part 3

Podcast Date: February 10, 2026
Host/Narrator: Marisa Pinson | Featuring: Tiffany Attai, Shawn Lammons, Peter Rice, Joel Rifkin, Bill Simon (retired NYPD), Greg McCrae (retired FBI), Mott Thomas

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Episode Overview

This gripping chapter brings listeners inside the long-standing investigation to identify the sixth and ninth unnamed victims of serial killer Joel Rifkin, whose crimes haunted New York in the early 1990s. Decades later, detectives, assisted by advancements in forensic DNA and the doggedness of those touched by the case, attempt to put names to victims believed to lie in mass, unmarked graves. The episode highlights hope, frustration, and the ethical complexities of seeking justice and closure—even as time fades witnesses and memories.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. State of the Investigation (00:20 - 03:35)

• Investigators Tiffany Attai and Shawn Lammons have worked nearly a year to identify Rifkin's unidentified victims.
• The team utilizes DNA analysis on victim jewelry and aerial searches of described dump sites.
• The process is slow and nonlinear—"a rollercoaster ride" that brings both leads and dead ends (01:01, Tiffany Attai).

2. Interviewing Joel Rifkin in Prison (03:58 - 08:02)

• Setting: Clinton Correctional Facility, Dannemora, NY
• Producer Peter Rice helps coordinate a pivotal in-person interview with Rifkin.
• Rifkin’s cooperation is uncertain; months of silence precede the meeting.
• During the interview:
  • Rifkin is vague about specifics of jewelry or the women.
  • He recognizes some features but frequently claims poor memory or confusion.
  • He expresses, "It was an odd period, let's put it that way." (04:21, Joel Rifkin).
  • Tiffany observes he seemed "slow to recall certain things" and attributes it to the passage of time (06:46).

Notable Exchange on Jewelry Identification

• Rifkin contradicts himself about whether the earrings in evidence matched what he remembered:
  • “The problem is, it wasn’t a pair. I think I only had one.” (04:41, Joel Rifkin).
  • Later, he reverts: “I believe it’s a pair.” (33:14, Joel Rifkin).

3. Victim Photos and Breakthroughs (05:31 - 16:11)

• Attai presents photos of sex workers from the era, hoping Rifkin will recognize his victims.
• Rifkin reacts with interest to photo ‘11’—said to resemble victim six (06:03).
• He also connects a “snake bracelet” to victim nine, a detail previously unknown to detectives (06:29).
• Family members, like Tanya Mara (daughter of potential victim Marilyn Mara), seek closure:
  • “He did not recognize your mom at all… which is good to know.” (09:41, Tiffany Attai).
• Two photos particularly draw Rifkin’s pause:
  • Julie Blackbird (missing, confirmed not to be one of his known victims but resemblance noted).
  • Denise Griffin (missing since 1991), whose time and location fit the pattern for victim six.
    • “It’s possible that Denise Griffin may be victim number six.” (15:54, Tiffany Attai).

4. Challenges of Evidence and Identification (19:41 - 23:05)

• DNA analysis is complicated; only a partial DNA profile can be extracted from the jewelry.
  • “Unfortunately, we don’t have a full profile to put into CODIS…” (19:48, Peter Rice).
• Efforts to get DNA from a snake bracelet fail due to the absence of DNA (21:09).
• Victim number nine is buried in a mass grave with about 150 others on Hart Island.
  • “It’s almost impossible to identify who is who.” (21:43, Bill Simon).
  • Hope is kept alive through dental records or a smiling photo for comparison.

5. The Psychology and Motives of Joel Rifkin (25:35 - 41:39)

• Rifkin admits prison interviews force him to relive the past—triggering depression and emotional strain (see 25:03+).
  • “Reliving it all for Tiffany took a lot out of me. Seeing the photos made it vastly more real than relying on simple memory.” (24:53, Peter Rice reads Rifkin’s email.)
• Experts like Greg McCrae suggest Rifkin maintains a sense of control, sometimes doling out “truth and falsehoods” as a form of manipulation (25:49).
• In a follow-up interview, Rifkin’s memory seems inconsistent, sometimes contradictory.
• Rifkin’s reflection on remorse:
  • "Do you really feel sorry for what you did?"—“Yeah. They’re gone. … It’s a double-edged tragedy. They’re gone. I’m sitting in here. … That’s gone. I’m sure they had goals and fantasies and ideas for life, and it’s gone for them.” (38:46 - 39:39)

Memorable Exchanges

• “It’s been 30 years. There’s no old, there’s no appeal, there’s no time off. I don’t get anything from this exchange monetarily. They can think what they want to think.” (40:22, Joel Rifkin)

6. Advancements and Next Steps (41:39 - End)

• Rifkin expresses that Denise Griffin’s photo is “more probable yes than no” as victim six but doesn’t absolutely confirm (41:04).
• Tiffany Attai cautiously considers contacting Griffin’s family for new DNA samples—after excluding the possibility that the earrings belonged to a different, already-named victim.
  • “Once the lab is able to tell me that those earrings don’t belong to any of the known victims that Rifkin confessed to... compare to the partial profile.” (43:17, Tiffany Attai)
• The saga of identifying lost lives is ongoing—“...with any unidentified victim, in any case, there’s always a chance.” (43:53, Tiffany Attai)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the emotional toll:

  • “Being in the room with him for four and a half hours, just. It’s kind of exhausting. Takes a lot of energy out of you.” (08:14, Tiffany Attai)

• On the struggle to recall:

  • “He didn’t seem to have the recall and he didn’t seem to be as forthcoming with information…” (08:02, Peter Rice).

• On Rifkin’s manipulation:

  • “Most serial killers think they’re smarter than everybody else … everything is about control.” (25:38, Greg McCrae).
  • “He provides some truth and some falsehoods to see if you can figure out the difference.” (25:55, Peter Rice).

• On identifying Denise Griffin:

  • “More probable yes than no. That’s the closest image to what I remember.” (41:04, Joel Rifkin).

• On progress and persistence:

  • “With so many years searching, you kind of realize a dead end isn’t a dead end because you don’t have to focus any more energy in that direction, which gives you more time and space to start to focus in a different area.” (09:41, Tanya Mara).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:20 — Introduction to Dannemora investigation and new leads.
• 03:58 — Preparing to interview Joel Rifkin in prison.
• 04:05 – 05:52 — In-depth interview with Rifkin; discussions of jewelry and victim recollection.
• 06:03 – 06:13 — Rifkin pauses on photo ‘11’ (potential link to victim #6).
• 09:41 – 10:50 — Family notification: Marilyn Mara ruled out as a victim.
• 12:50 – 16:11 — Investigation into Julie Blackbird and Denise Griffin as possible victim six.
• 19:41 – 21:09 — DNA evidence limitations and search for identification.
• 21:43 – 23:05 — Hart Island mass grave challenges.
• 25:03 – 43:01 — Multiple interview segments with Rifkin; discussions about memory, remorse, victim identities, and criminal psychology.
• 43:53 – End — Conclusions and themes of hope for identification; information about next episode.

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Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is investigative, methodical, at times intimate and raw. Detectives balance professional persistence with empathy for victim families. Peter Rice’s narration brings a sense of urgency and disappointment, reflecting the emotional investment in their quest for answers. Rifkin’s statements move between cold detachment and flashes of human complexity.

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Conclusion

This episode of Cold Case Files masterfully balances threads of hope, heartbreak, and the gritty realities of long-term investigations. Through the persistent efforts of investigators, a bit more is illuminated about two lost lives—but frustration and ambiguity remain. Listener engagement is driven not by spectacle but by the depth of dedication, the human need for answers, and the underlying belief that—even after decades—one more person might help solve the mystery. The series continues next week, promising closure or at least new developments in the search for the true identities of Rifkin’s unknown victims.

Transcript

[Peter Rice]

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[Joel Rifkin]

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[Tiffany Attai]

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[Peter Rice]

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[Narrator]

This program contains subject matter that may be disturbing to some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. There are over 100,000 cold cases in America. Only 1% are ever solved. This is one of those rare stories. It's May 2022 in Dannemora, New York. Cold case investigators Tiffany Attai and Shawn Lammons have been working for 11 months to identify the sixth and ninth victims of of serial killer Joel Rifkin.

[Tiffany Attai]

This case, in these new leads, it's been a little bit of a rollercoaster ride. It's brought us in different directions, but we are one step closer from where we were in 1993.

[Narrator]

During the course of their investigation, Attai and Lammons had performed DNA analysis on jewelry found on the victims.

[Tiffany Attai]

We had obtained a partial DNA profile on the pair of earrings that could belong to victim number six.

[Narrator]

Investigators have also searched by helicopter areas described by Rifkin as dump sites for the bodies.

[Tiffany Attai]

Where it turns.

[Peter Rice]

I think there was like a freight railroad line.

[Tiffany Attai]

Starlight park matched the description he was giving of where he dumped victim number six. We were going to interview Rifkin, but then Peter had mentioned that Rifkin kind of went radio silent and wasn't talking to him. So I was a little nervous that maybe he was getting cold feet.

[Narrator]

Atai and Lammons have arranged to sit down with Rifkin with the help of TV producer Peter Rice.

[Peter Rice]

Good to see you.

[Tiffany Attai]

Nice to see you. How was your drive?

[Peter Rice]

Oh, it was good. How about you guys?

[Tiffany Attai]

It was long drive.

[Joel Rifkin]

Long drive.

[Tiffany Attai]

Pretty long.

[Peter Rice]

This interview with Rifkin and the police was such a big moment in the case. I just want to thank you guys for inviting me up for this special moment. I know we've all been building towards it, definitely, but Rifkin's kind of gone dark on me, so I don't know what his deal is. So when I started talking to Rifkin again, we had been communicating pretty regularly for, like, at least every week on phone and email. But leading up to the police meeting with Rifkin at prison, I had lost contact with him for at least a month, if not longer. And I really didn't know what Rifkin's state of mind was going to be when the Police went and visited him. Rifkin doesn't really have a choice about what he can and can't do in prison, so he had to show up for the meeting with them. But he was under no legal obligation to speak to the police. He could just sit there and choose not to talk. So I hope his mindset is what it's been all along, which is that he wants to help.

[Tiffany Attai]

Exactly. Well, we'll find out shortly, you know, maybe why he's gone dark.

[Joel Rifkin]

Right.

[Peter Rice]

Good luck, guys.

[Tiffany Attai]

Thank you.

[Joel Rifkin]

Appreciate it.

[Peter Rice]

Take care. We'll see you in a bit. Yes. See you in a bit.

[Tiffany Attai]

Yep. Sounds good.

[Peter Rice]

Okay, there.

[Tiffany Attai]

Have you ever been to the jail before?

[Peter Rice]

No.

[Tiffany Attai]

No, not this one. The prison's right there. Wow. It's an old building, right?

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah.

[Peter Rice]

Right? Yeah, it looks real old.

[Tiffany Attai]

It's a really high wall.

[Peter Rice]

Yeah.

[Joel Rifkin]

Pretty crazy.

[Peter Rice]

Dannemora.

[Joel Rifkin]

It's a huge old prison.

[Peter Rice]

Was pretty intimidating walking in there. This is the first time I've ever been face to face with a serial killer. So we both were a little unsure how it was going to unravel. I wasn't allowed to go in with them, but as I watched Investigator Italian Lammons walk into the Clinton Correctional Facility, I was concerned about how cooperative Rifkin was gonna be with police.

[Narrator]

The following is an audio recording of the interview between Rifkin and investigators ATAI and Lammons.

[Tiffany Attai]

You know why we're here. Victim six and nine. When you were taking jewelry, was there anything that went through your mind where you're like, you know, I want that piece of jewelry? Or what was the thought process?

[Joel Rifkin]

Basically, whatever was identifiable.

[Tiffany Attai]

Okay.

[Joel Rifkin]

There were some didn't take anything. There was some kept everything. There was no rhyme or reason. It was an odd period, let's put it that way.

[Tiffany Attai]

Those two earrings were the only ones that I could see matching. Because the hanging ones have their little plastic crystals.

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah. The problem is, it wasn't a pair. I think I only had one.

[Tiffany Attai]

So the first two pictures of the earrings don't look familiar to you?

[Joel Rifkin]

No.

[Tiffany Attai]

Do you think you can draw?

[Joel Rifkin]

Sort of. Don't remember. A hanging earring was right off of one of the hooks. If you're looking at it, it's almost like a flower.

[Peter Rice]

I was sitting out there waiting for them, and one hour went by, two hours went by, three hours went by.

[Tiffany Attai]

That's the creek that we went over. So we have the aerial video. This is the Bronx River.

[Joel Rifkin]

I basically pulled over and then backed into a triangle. There was no overhead bridge, though, so.

[Tiffany Attai]

The road was next to where the tracks would be.

[Joel Rifkin]

The tracks were on the opposite side.

[Tiffany Attai]

So nothing's jumping out at you?

[Joel Rifkin]

No.

[Tiffany Attai]

Prior to interviewing Rifkin, I had gathered photos of women from the 30 years ago who were in the sex industry back then, who kind of fell off the grid. I had brought the photos up to Dana Mora to show him and see if he could pick out any of the girls resembling 6 and 9. Is this helping you, looking at all this stuff? Yeah, just when you stopped at. I don't want to force anything down your throat. I just. I noticed where you paused.

[Joel Rifkin]

This is similar.

[Tiffany Attai]

Which one?

[Joel Rifkin]

11.

[Tiffany Attai]

Similar for which one? 6 or 9?

[Joel Rifkin]

6.

[Tiffany Attai]

We also showed him photos of jewelry belonging to victims that Rifkin kept for trophies. And as far as number nine, what else do you remember about her?

[Joel Rifkin]

I remember this. Fake. I don't think she was wearing it.

[Tiffany Attai]

Number nine.

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah. But that snake piece is definitely hers.

[Tiffany Attai]

Victim number nine.

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah.

[Narrator]

After the interview, Atai and Lammons meet Peter Rice.

[Peter Rice]

They're in there a long time. Yeah. So what'd you guys learn? A couple good things.

[Joel Rifkin]

Couple not so good things.

[Tiffany Attai]

Exactly. The thing with police work, and in any case, it's not always cut and dry and you get the answers you want.

[Joel Rifkin]

Hey. Seemed a little slow to recall certain things.

[Tiffany Attai]

It kept saying it's a long time ago. My memory isn't what it used to be.

[Peter Rice]

What about the single earring and the pair of earrings?

[Tiffany Attai]

He didn't recognize them at all. In the black and white and the color, I mean, they were dead on as far as the description. And he was able to draw us a picture of what he remembered number six's earring looking like.

[Peter Rice]

Similar description to the original, but different. Different characteristics to it that he had mentioned earlier. Huh.

[Tiffany Attai]

So as far as the river, he was able to rule out certain areas that we had photos and videos of. As far as the photos of the females, he was able to definitively say that he didn't recognize Marilyn Lamar. He paused at some pictures that I'm gonna look into a little bit further. But we do have some new information about an item of jewelry belonging to number nine, so. Yeah, which is weird cause he never mentioned that previously, so.

[Peter Rice]

No. I had asked him specifically if he remembered keeping anything from number nine cloth. And he said no.

[Tiffany Attai]

It's like any case, you know, things change. You plan for one thing and you end up doing another. So you just gotta roll with it and see what you get.

[Peter Rice]

When they told me how the meeting went, I was disappointed. He just didn't seem to have the recall and he didn't seem to be as forthcoming with information as he did with me on the phone.

[Tiffany Attai]

So when I came out of the meeting with Rifkin, I was definitely tired. The drive up the day before was a lot. Sleeping in a hotel and then just being in the room with him for four and a half hours, just. It's kind of exhausting. Takes a lot of energy out of you. And then, you know, when you get some sleep and you wake up, you're like, all right, you didn't hit a dead end. I mean, we did get additional info out of Rifkin for jewelry belonging to number nine. And it turns out after he looked at those photos of the girls, we got something we didn't have. I wasn't sure if Rifkin was gonna stop on any photos, but he stopped on two of them. One known victim, then one that resembled or had similar hair that he recalled victim number six having.

[Joel Rifkin]

This is similar.

[Tiffany Attai]

Which one?

[Joel Rifkin]

11.

[Tiffany Attai]

Similar. For which one? Six or nine?

[Joel Rifkin]

Six.

[Tiffany Attai]

He showed an interest in her, and it was a different interest than any of the other photos that he was shown, which caught my attention. So as much as I was disappointed that I didn't get all the answers that I wanted, I took away information that could help identify 6 and 9. And we found answers for the daughter of Marilyn Mara. Hello? Hey, Tanya, it's Tiffany. How are you?

[Joel Rifkin]

Good.

[Tiffany Attai]

How are you? I just wanted to touch base after meeting with Rifkin and kind of fill you in on what he said after looking at the photos. As an investigator, as a detective, the families of the victims look to you for answers. Tanya thought that it was possible that her mother, Marilyn Mara, might be a Rifkin victim. How did it go? It went well. I guess the good news for you is that he did not recognize your mom at all. Okay, well, good. That's definitely good to know. Yes. In the beginning, when I started this search, every dead end did feel like a blow. But with so many years searching, you kind of realize a dead end isn't a dead end because you don't have to focus any more energy in that direction, which, you know, gives you more time and space to start to focus in a different area. And I'm incredibly grateful and thankful for Tiffany. She's relentless. She doesn't stop until she gets an answer. And that's something I can really appreciate. Thank you guys so much. You're welcome. I'll talk to you soon.

[Joel Rifkin]

Okay. Bye.

[Mott Thomas]

Bye.

[Tiffany Attai]

All right.

[Narrator]

Bye.

[Tiffany Attai]

Oh, hey. What's going on? How you feeling?

[Peter Rice]

Tired.

[Tiffany Attai]

Yeah, me too, Getting some rest. So I kinda want to go over everything and see where we're at. When Rifkin was talking about victim number nine, he had picked out a photo, and it was a snake bracelet. He remembered that he kept that from that victim. This was the bracelet he indicated was victim number nine. And I remember that being in the processing with the earrings. Yes, that's in that blue safe.

[Peter Rice]

So, yeah, I definitely know where that is.

[Tiffany Attai]

The first step is to obtain that bracelet from our evidence and send it up to the lab for testing, and hopefully we get DNA. What's your take on this description of the earring being different?

[Joel Rifkin]

I don't know.

[Peter Rice]

I don't know if his memory's getting a little foggy or not.

[Tiffany Attai]

When I showed him the photo of the pair, he said, that's not them. So I asked him to draw them. When he drew the picture, I looked at them, and they looked almost exact to what we had and what we obtained DNA from. So the question became in my mind, well, what's changing now?

[Peter Rice]

After the police meeting with Rifkin at Dannemora, thoughts crossed my mind, like, is he changing his story? Why is he being difficult? I was really starting to question the whole thing. I had lost contact with him, and I was kind of in the dark about, you know, what was happening. Hey, can you hear me?

[Tiffany Attai]

Yeah.

[Peter Rice]

So I was just hoping to catch up with you after Dan Amora and just wondering what your thoughts are on the visit and anything that he said that's helping you move things forward. One of the main things Investigator Tide did was to show Rifkin pictures of missing persons and mugshots of women arrested for prostitution around the same time and location as when Victims 6 and 9 went missing from New York City. The investigators told me that he had stopped on two women.

[Tiffany Attai]

I put a photo of Julie Blackbird in there just to see what his reaction would be. He said, oh, she looks familiar.

[Narrator]

Mott Thomas is Julie Blackbird's friend.

[Greg McCrae]

I first met Julie in the lobby of the Houston Museum of Fine Arts School of Art. Julie was an accomplished actress and performer, and I was just struck by her beauty. And she was just like a movie star to me. One evening, I started to take photographs of her when she was putting her makeup on. It was almost like watching a painter, the way she would create her look. I thought she was gonna be a famous actress. I really did. Julie went on up to New York, and I stayed behind in Houston, and we eventually lost touch. Years later, I had gone up to New York City and I was walking down Mott street and lo and behold, there was Julie. I was just speechless. I was shocked. Julie still looked like Julie, but there was something off. The happiness and the confidence that she had had left her. I really wanted to go over there and hug her, but there was a guy 15 yards away from her, just had this evil presence about him. I had a wave of fear go through me like I really have never felt. And so I just turned and kept going. And I regretted it for the rest of my life. When I read what had happened to Julie in New York, it was devastating. And the more I read, the more awful it got.

[Tiffany Attai]

His body language changed when he looked at a photo of Julie Blackbird and his reaction was with stopping on. Julie Blackbird's photo was somewhat similar to the missing person.

[Joel Rifkin]

This similar.

[Tiffany Attai]

Which one?

[Joel Rifkin]

11.

[Tiffany Attai]

Similar. For which one? 6 or 9?

[Joel Rifkin]

6.

[Tiffany Attai]

So I found it interesting that he stopped on that photo. It was almost similar to the way he looked at the picture of his known victim. So that meant something to me. Then he made comments about it that she resembled victim number six, hair color and hairstyle. The second woman that he stopped on who is missing is Denise Griffin. Denise Griffin was actually on the list of women that the task force looked at 30 years ago. And she went missing several months before he said he killed victim number six. So this is the Namus. Page four. Denise Griffin has her date of last contact as May 17, 1991, possibly last seen in the Brooklyn and Manhattan area. The time frame fits for the most part, and the area where she worked fit as well. So it's possible that Denise Griffin may be victim number six.

[Narrator]

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[Tiffany Attai]

I purposely put Denise Griffin's photo in the 100 photos I had showed Rifkin because I knew she was missing and I knew she was looked at by the initial investigators in 1993, and Rifkin stopped on her. She is a NamUs, the National Missing and Unidentified Person System, and she went missing several months before he said he killed victim number six. When you look at the profile for Denise Griffin and namus, it says that there's DNA on file. However, just because there's DNA on file doesn't mean that you can just go get that DNA and compare it to the partial profile we obtained on the pair of earrings. We would need to have it uploaded to CODIS and then see if we would get a match with the DNA that Denise Griffin's family provided back then.

[Peter Rice]

But codis, which is a DNA database maintained by the FBI, would need a full profile to run that sample.

[Tiffany Attai]

Unfortunately, we don't have a full profile to put into codis. We're working with a partial. So we would need a new buccal swab from a family member to compare to the partial profile to get those answers. But before I start reaching out to all of Denise's family, we just need a little bit more to connect the dots.

[Peter Rice]

We know who this woman is. She could be number six. So after the police interview with Rifkin, I wanted to meet Rifkin personally to follow up with him about Denise Griffin and where he disposed of victim number six and just see if I could get any more information sitting down with him directly, face to face that maybe he wasn't willing to share with law enforcement.

[Tiffany Attai]

If Peter was going to get more information or get Rifkin in a state where he was more forthcoming and felt better, I was open to that. Maybe he would give him something that he didn't feel comfortable giving us, that we could use.

[Peter Rice]

But it had been about three months since he had last contacted me and I didn't know what to make of Rifkin's silence. I didn't know if it was going to continue or what.

[Tiffany Attai]

After Rifkin had picked out the snake bracelet as belonging to victim number nine, we sent it up to the lab for testing. I don't know if the lab reached out to you.

[Peter Rice]

Not lately, no.

[Tiffany Attai]

Okay. There was no DNA on the snake bracelet.

[Joel Rifkin]

Okay.

[Tiffany Attai]

Belonging to nine, so we have no DNA. So ultimately the lab wasn't able to obtain any DNA off the snake bracelet. Unfortunately, we can't explore the DNA route in identifying victim number nine through that. The only thing left to do is wait, and hopefully the office of the Chief Medical examiner can locate victim number nine in Hart island, exhume her, and get DNA from her remains.

[Narrator]

Bill Simon is a retired detective with the New York City police department.

[Mott Thomas]

Number nine is on plot 226. But the people that are buried on Hart island are buried in mass graves. When they went to go look for the body, she's mixed with 150 other bodies. So it's making it almost impossible to identify who is who. Even though we have the plot, but there's always hope. You can't say that anything's finished. So once again, I went back to the autopsy and I looked at what we had. We don't have much, but I finally realized the one thing we do have is, is the victim's dental records. You can make a positive identification off of dental records. Ideal circumstances would be that you have an idea of who the victim is and her dental records, and you bring them down to the OCME and they compare them. Another way they can do it is if you have a picture of the person who you think may be that body. If they're smiling in the picture, you can compare that picture with the dental records. So there are ways to do it. There's always that one little measure of hope. There's always that one person that may have a key piece of information that we could link those dental records and make an identification. It's just up to someone to bring that hope into reality.

[Peter Rice]

I thought victim number nine was going to be the easy one to identify. They exhume her body, they get a DNA sample from the bones, and boom, we'll somehow identify her that way. It's turned into this long saga of mass graves and commingled remains. And it's really something that I wasn't anticipating and still have trouble wrapping my head around. It just made me feel like I had to take my job even more seriously, that I really needed to see step up and get the police the information they needed. They were supportive of me trying to get more information from Rifkin face to face. But before the police went up to visit Rifkin in prison, Rifkin just went completely dark on me. I would email him over and over again, but he never responded to me. I didn't know what to think. Maybe he's had a change of heart. Maybe felt like it was too much and wanted to back out. And then he finally sent me an email. Sorry, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. I've been majorly depressed these past months. Reliving it all for Tiffany took a lot out of me. Seeing the photos made it vastly more real than relying on simple memory. He said that going back into his memory banks and reliving his crimes brought up a lot of emotions. And whether he was showing remorse or not, I don't really know. But one of the reasons why he told me he was depressed is because thinking about those crimes back in the day is when he wasn't in prison. It's when he lived at home. He had a life. He had freedom. So now he's remembering, I'm in prison and I can't do any of that. Stuff and it took a while for him to kind of snap out of it. We started communicating again and I told Rifkin I wanted to meet with him and ask follow up questions and he agreed to meet with me in prison. So I'm coming on August 9th.

[Joel Rifkin]

All right. Be interesting.

[Peter Rice]

Like I said, I just want to talk to you about mostly what we've been talking about these last few years, which is about 6 and 9.

[Joel Rifkin]

Okay.

[Peter Rice]

I think he wants to help find who these women are. His reasons, I don't know. But the way for this to pay off for him in my mind is for us to identify these women. Because then he's back in the new, Then he's current again, then he's relevant. If he's throwing roadblocks at us, if he's trying to confuse us, that moment's never going to come.

[Narrator]

Greg McCrae is a retired FBI special agent.

[Joel Rifkin]

I think Rifkin is playing the I've got a secret game.

[Peter Rice]

Most serial killers think they're smarter than.

[Joel Rifkin]

Everybody else and everything is about control. They want to have control over everything. That's who I think we're dealing with.

[Peter Rice]

So he may tease this information, give.

[Joel Rifkin]

It to you drop by drop, and it wouldn't surprise me if he provides.

[Peter Rice]

Some truth and some falsehoods to see if you can figure out the difference. He's still manipulative. He'll go to the grave being manipulative.

[Joel Rifkin]

And this is just another way to manipulate the system.

[Narrator]

On August 9, 2022, 14 months into the investigation, Peter Rice heads to the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora to speak to Rifkin.

[Peter Rice]

We are officially on the way to the prison. It had been about three months since the police interview with Rifkin at prison. And I really wanted to get him to look at the picture of Denise Griffin again and see what he remembered about her. Ask him again about the earrings and why there was a discrepancy between a pair and a single. Tiffany and I have been speaking on and off over the last week. She is really focused right now on trying to find Number six. So she wants me to hone in on where he dumped number six in the barrel. So we'll see what he has to offer. I guess I'm a little nervous about Rifkin. There is definitely some anxiety. What's he thinking and is he going to be helpful? You never know what might pry loose from his memory. You never know what break in the case might come. Thanks for your time.

[Joel Rifkin]

No problem.

[Peter Rice]

I knew this interview with Rifkin was Gonna be an important moment. So I really had to take advantage of the time I had with him to try to get the information that they were looking for. We kind of go back a long way, don't we?

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah.

[Peter Rice]

He had had, like, the longest ponytail I had ever seen, a big, long beard. He looked like he had aged significantly. And he was a much different person than I remembered him from the 2004 interview. How are you doing today?

[Joel Rifkin]

Good. Mood's improved? Just feeling good.

[Peter Rice]

What was it like meeting with investigators when they came to see you and kind of show you all the different pictures and everything? What was that experience like for you?

[Joel Rifkin]

Those interviews, they're more difficult because all the memories come back. It took a while to get readjust afterwards.

[Peter Rice]

I mean, at this point in time now we're all getting older. At some point, I feel like the information won't be available anymore to try to figure out who these women were, where six is, and who six and nine are. So if not now, when?

[Joel Rifkin]

Right, yeah. So much has changed. It's. Is there anything still left to look for?

[Peter Rice]

Did they show you a bunch of pictures of potential victims?

[Joel Rifkin]

Well over 100, I believe. Yeah.

[Peter Rice]

You stopped on a woman, Denise Griffin, that kind of had what I'm calling strawberry blonde hair.

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah.

[Peter Rice]

Do you remember what you said about her, or do you remember anything about.

[Joel Rifkin]

Her hairstyle, color, general roundness of the face or lot? Somewhat to six.

[Peter Rice]

Anything else about her that you remember? Any clothing, any scars, any markings?

[Joel Rifkin]

No. Sadly, no.

[Peter Rice]

Had you seen her before?

[Mott Thomas]

No.

[Peter Rice]

It was a rough start. He seemed a little nervous. He seemed cold. There wasn't a lot of back and forth. It was just ask a question and get a one word answer. So I started talking to him about his childhood and things I knew that he liked talking about and reminiscing about. What are the good memories of your childhood and your mom and your family? Some happier times.

[Joel Rifkin]

We did family vacations, went to a bungalow, large hotel thing that were very popular in the Catskills, in the mountains. The film Dirty Dancing takes place at one of these places.

[Peter Rice]

So are those, you know, home movies? Is that a good representation of your childhood? And do you have happy memories when you think about those memories?

[Joel Rifkin]

Early, yeah.

[Peter Rice]

Now, what about the relationship with your mom? Did you love her and do you feel like she loved you?

[Joel Rifkin]

Oh, yeah. Mom was always there. Mom was there through the trial, through this whole arresting and imprisonment. Her passing was a big loss. Dad passed before my arrest.

[Peter Rice]

It took a while for him to warm up. And I think a lot of it has to do with his memory isn't perfect. And I think that he is somewhat conflicted. I think that he wants to help identify these women and get the publicity. But does he want to go all the way and identify him and close the case? There's a lot I want to cover, but we can just talk about 6 and 9 now if that's all right with you.

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[Peter Rice]

Now, you do believe that you kept some jewelry from number six?

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah, I referred to them as rock candy type earrings.

[Peter Rice]

Do you remember if it was a pair of earrings or a single earring?

[Joel Rifkin]

I believe it's a pair.

[Peter Rice]

You believe it's a pair? It seems like the story has changed sometimes between the single pair, clear or bluish.

[Joel Rifkin]

I've always described it as rock candy. The color. It's years. There's different memories over the years.

[Peter Rice]

Rifkin's original story was that it was a pair of earrings that looked like rock candy. Then he went to a single. Today he went back to being a pair of earrings in that he was just confused, basically. So there's still hope that those earrings could provide the identity of victim number six with that partial DNA sample. But there's also a chance that the police will find her remains and that she can be identified that way. So I started to ask Rifkin more details about where he dumped number six. Can you walk me through how you disposed of her?

[Joel Rifkin]

Well, with number six, I still had the service yard for landscaping, so I brought her there. Steel drum. Drove through the city and up into the Bronx area. Spotted a turn off by. I thought it was a little creek, small triangle of land, and put the barrel in the creek. There were a lot of auto salvage places around there and there were a lot of doors, hoods, motors laying everywhere.

[Peter Rice]

You recently mentioned that where the turn in the river was, you thought there was a freight railroad line.

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah, I didn't think it was. It didn't have that commuter rail feel to it.

[Peter Rice]

Why do you think now it was the Bronx river and not the Harlem River?

[Joel Rifkin]

Through the investigators, the closeness of the road and the railroad tracks, it. Bronx River.

[Peter Rice]

Fitz, I kept asking him about different descriptions of the river and the area. But the information I was getting from Rifkin on where he disposed of victim number six was basically what the police already knew. So I tried to get more details from him about victim number nine. Number nine. Her body was found May of 92 in Brooklyn. Can you tell me what you remember about her?

[Joel Rifkin]

Taller, bigger bone than number six? 5, 7, 5, 10 ish, maybe.

[Peter Rice]

Do you remember any kind of tattoo on her?

[Joel Rifkin]

No.

[Peter Rice]

Hair color?

[Joel Rifkin]

Dark, with grassy blonde highlights. Long, sort of in an updo.

[Peter Rice]

Where did you go and what did you do with her?

[Joel Rifkin]

I'm not sure if it was a parking lot or a building lot. We didn't even really do anything because the trigger with her was she just kept sleeping. So it was like.

[Peter Rice]

Did you strangle her?

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah, like the others. I could be with two, three girls in one night, they'd be fine. The next night I could be with another. Two, three. The first two would be fine. The third one wouldn't be, why her and not the other five? I still don't understand.

[Peter Rice]

Something comes over you and it's been called that there's a lot of victims, there's a lot of jewelry, there's a lot of facts. And he has a great memory, but it's not perfect. And so I started asking him about his crimes from the beginning. Can you tell me about the first victim?

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah. Susie with a Z started out in Manhattan, the Forsyth Allen street area. We eventually go back to the house on the island. In her case, I picked up an artillery shell I had bought at a garage sale for like a quarter, about year big, and smacked her with it and then kept hitting her with it until I physically got tired. I don't know, 20, 30 times maybe. I'm freaking out. I think I killed her. I'm running around pulling down curtains, closing doors, turning lights off, just freaking out. And she sits up and now just total freak out. We ended up wrestling and either strangled her or smothered her or a combination of both because I had no idea what to now do with a bloody mess that, you know, what do you do?

[Tiffany Attai]

What do you go?

[Joel Rifkin]

Ah, panic.

[Peter Rice]

And what about that first one do you think made you cross the line?

[Joel Rifkin]

We read books that guys fantasize about murder and mayhem all the time. I don't know. I guess at that moment the fantasy life and the real life just intertwined. And there's also you lie to yourself while you're doing this. That's the other thing. You do one, well, they can only kill you the first time for the one. So the second one becomes like a free one. Well, so then you can rationalize the third one back and forth, back and forth.

[Peter Rice]

Did you ever vow to stop?

[Joel Rifkin]

Oh, like a hundred times. It's the same as quitting smoking. Yeah, I'll do that tomorrow. Oop, Tomorrow I'm smoking. I'll quit again. Yep, we have a weird definition of what's crazy and what's legally crazy. Trust me, I was not normal at the time. After that, it just really twisted me.

[Peter Rice]

Do you really feel sorry for what you did?

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah. They're gone. I mean, I get weird mail, I get interesting mail, I get psycho mail. I get a lot of mail, but I get this letter. Female handwriting. It's obviously from a woman. Hi. I knew you on the streets. You knew me. Thank you for not killing me. I now have five daughters. Really? Oh, so this just five, you know, kids that had things gone differently, those two nights wouldn't be here, you know, So I started thinking about all the stuff that never happened. And then it just. Yeah, there's a lot going on up there. It's a double edged tragedy. They're gone. I'm sitting in here. I had a lot of other plans and fantasies about, oh, you know, different life. That's gone. I'm sure they had goals and fantasies and ideas for life, and it's gone for them.

[Peter Rice]

Everyone wants to know, does Rifkin actually feel remorse? He knows what he did is wrong. I think he knows that intellectually, but I don't think he actually feels it in his soul. I just think that he doesn't possess the emotions. Like he can't feel that emotion for whatever reason, just doesn't exist in him. A lot of people, they think you have ulterior motives or you're giving some information, but not all the information. How do you respond to that?

[Joel Rifkin]

It's been 30 years. There's no old, there's no appeal, there's no time off. I don't get anything from this exchange monetarily. They can think what they want to think.

[Peter Rice]

So I showed him the picture of Denise Griffin and I said, could this be victim number six? Is this the woman that you stopped on?

[Joel Rifkin]

Uh, yeah, I think when I knew the hair was shorter, it was more off the shoulder. Yeah, I don't think there was that much makeup.

[Peter Rice]

So what are your thoughts when you look at that?

[Joel Rifkin]

More probable yes than no. That's the closest image to what I remember. The street life is a very hard life and appearances change very quickly. And what you see one month is not what you see the next month.

[Peter Rice]

It sounds like, Bo, that you do have an idea of what she looked like in your memory somewhere.

[Joel Rifkin]

Yeah.

[Peter Rice]

Do you think if they found a picture of Denise later in life, that maybe it could be her?

[Joel Rifkin]

Probably.

[Peter Rice]

He said more probable than not. That Denise Griffin and his victim number six. So that is significant. But he's reluctant to go all the way. Is it because he wants to keep it open and keep some mystery alive? I don't know. But part of me now believes that he's not going to go all the way and say this is her. That this is his way of saying that. And that's as close as he's going to get. For the record, the information you've been giving me and Investigator Atai. You're telling us the truth.

[Joel Rifkin]

Oh, yeah.

[Peter Rice]

We have to close down. I hope we can stay in touch.

[Joel Rifkin]

Thank you.

[Peter Rice]

After the interview with Rifkin, I had mixed emotions. He never shut down or backed off when I asked him detailed questions. He seemed to try to rack his memory as best he could. I'm always hoping that he's gonna go in there and give us all the information that we want, like tied up in a bow, and that's just not happening. It's definitely been frustrating from my perspective because I was hoping to have all the answers by now.

[Tiffany Attai]

I was shown the video of the interview between Peter and Rifkin, and Rifkin's reaction to Denise Griffin seemed significant. It was almost like he was saying this might be her without saying it.

[Peter Rice]

That helped confirm his pause during our interview. Looking at that photo, this one you.

[Tiffany Attai]

Stopped at, I noticed where you paused this.

[Joel Rifkin]

Similar.

[Tiffany Attai]

Similar for which one? Six or nine?

[Joel Rifkin]

Six.

[Tiffany Attai]

It means Denise Griffin may be victim number six. But before I start reaching out to all of Denise's family, I want to make sure that our lab doesn't match a known victim's DNA profile to the partial on the earrings. Because without doing that, we could be working to identify a victim that we already know. Once the lab is able to tell me that those earrings don't belong to any of the known victims that Rifkin confessed to, at that point, it's important to reach out to the family and see if they would be willing to provide a DNA sample to be compared to the partial profile. DNA. It's not something that you see on TV where it happens Overnight. Testing takes a while, and we have to be patient. As an investigator, you have to be determined, and you just have to keep trying to find those answers. Looking into this case in a new way. Cold cases are difficult to solve, but with any unidentified victim, in any case, there's always a chance. And we saw that with victim number one.

[Peter Rice]

It's a really inspiring story, and it has parallels to what investigator Atay is doing. Because these cases take a lot of time, they have a lot of dead ends, and then new things open up. And hearing about victim number one have made me hopeful that these two victims, six and nine, can someday be identified.

[Narrator]

We will return with the conclusion of the Rifkin murders next week on Cold Case Files. Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows. This is the mindset.

[Mott Thomas]

Free.

[Narrator]

This is the mantra.

[Joel Rifkin]

Free.

[Tiffany Attai]

This is the.

[Narrator]

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[Tiffany Attai]

Huzzah.

[Narrator]

Pluto TV stream now pay. Never.

[Peter Rice]

You're welcome.