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Grading 101: What Separates a 10 from an 8 with the World’s Best Grader | Mike Baker
00:52:17
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- [00:00]
Ryan Alford
Hey, you grade what you see. So clean those cards up before you.
- [00:03]
Mike Baker
The counterfeitings. That's not the problem. The problem is, you know, alterations relative to trimming and shaping corners and things like that, that's more nuanced. That's where the experience and judgment call kind of comes into play.
- [00:15]
Podcast Host
Welcome to the Collector Nation podcast here on the Collector Nation Network. Whether you're chasing grails or calling bluffs, we take you inside the hobby. Here's your host, Ryan Al.
- [00:32]
Ryan Alford
Foreign. Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to Collector Nation here on the Collector Nation Network. I'm back with one of my good buddies. You know how much I. You guys know how good I talk about Mike and Mike Bakers. So nice to join us here again as our official. The official professional world's greatest grader of Collector Nation. Mike, I just gave you a new title. I love it.
- [01:03]
Mike Baker
Thanks for having me, as always.
- [01:04]
Ryan Alford
Mike Baker authenticated NBA grading upand cominging grading company. Though he is the world renowned grader and XPSA badass. So, hey, I'm just coming up with all of them now, Mike. But hey, are. Are you. I know I, I'm the marketing guy and I add all these titles to you, but are you the world's greatest grader?
- [01:30]
Mike Baker
That's a matter of opinion.
- [01:32]
Ryan Alford
I just got a lot of opinions out there. I mean, does anyone have more experience
- [01:38]
Mike Baker
grading than you as a professional grader? I. Probably not, no. So, I mean, I think like we've talked in the past or whatever, like the superpower is that I, I go to trade shows, I'm at the booth, I talk, you know, I'm articulating where I'm coming from relative to why the car got what it received grade wise. So if there's anything that kind of makes it like more compelling is the fact that I'm just more accessible.
- [02:04]
Ryan Alford
Yes, well, that's for sure. I mean, honestly, are there any other. They haven't hit my radar. If they are. Are there any other graders that are sort of personal brands? No, they all just kind of want to hide behind the. I mean, I get it. It's not. It's a tough spot. I mean, you own the company, so you're out in front. Plus you do the, you know, I know you have a team now helping, but it is kind of a fine balance. So I guess there is that. You know, that.
- [02:33]
Mike Baker
That is. That's the word too. It's the fine balance. You know, the optics on having a grader be accessible and then, you know, talking to submitters. And all that. It's. There's definitely a fine line. I can just tell you that the card's the card. We grade what we see. And if people have questions as to why the card received the grade that it received, that's where I'll come in and tighten it up. So that's the superpower.
- [02:55]
Ryan Alford
I just love that. Again, accessibility is a good word. You know, what you're doing with, hey, come online. I'll do a digital analysis, give you an idea of where you'd be for a very reasonable fee so you don't have to play the guessing game. You answer DMs and texts and, you know, I know. Not just for, of course for me, but. But I know you do it for everyone. You know, like to pretend I'm special. But I am special because Mike was so gracious and so authentic in coming to the grand opening collector station. I want to give him a props and thank yous here live on the air for that. I really meant a lot, Mike. I mean, having you here and, you know, just spending. I know that time, money, energy, effort, all that. And I love you for that, brother.
- [03:42]
Mike Baker
Back at you, man. Strategic partnerships are. That's what it's all about. So.
- [03:45]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, man. And look, it's. I'll say this. I've, you know, owned the shop. You know, feels like two years, but I think officially two months open, soft opening, two months and a month and a half. I don't know, weeks are running together. The official grand open, weeks ago. The amount.
- [04:05]
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- [04:35]
Ryan Alford
A lot of people, Mike, that walk in and the third thing they. Well, the first thing they say is, you know, how much is this or that or, you know, hey, like, spot or, you know, small talk. The. The. The third thing is, do you offer grading services or what do you think? I mean, grading is like the third, like, third thing out of their mouth with every other person that walks in. It is just the topic in the hobby now.
- [05:00]
Mike Baker
Well, the awareness gap is definitely narrow. People are more educated about, you know, why grading is so important and making sure that the cards you know, real. It's, you know, it hasn't been played with. It's. It's on a. It's special in terms of the grade that it receives. It becomes even more special for receiving NBA diamond. There's, you know, all that kind of. I was in a, I was in a elevator and a little kid, I think I talked in the last show, you know, like a little 7 year old kid was talking about grading right off the gate. Which grading service should I use? And it's like, wow, that's, you know, it's, it's great. Everyone's got a lot more leap from the days gone past where a lot of the education about grading was doing it in person. There was no Internet and there was no way to make it kind of international. And now it's like we're talking to guys as all the greeting services, I'm sure they are talking with people from all across the world. So it's awesome.
- [05:57]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, man. And it sort of makes sense. I don't know. Part of me is like when I came back in the hobby, I was like, wow, grading's gotten more important. And I was like, well, you know. But then I started to think about it. I'm like, you know what also has gotten more. You've got AI and really good printers at home that can fake the shit out of stuff. So, yeah, like the games are big. The game, yeah. And you got pieces of cardboard worth tens of thousands, if not millions of dollars. Heck, even when it's $500, depending on your scale. Yeah. Someone mess around with it.
- [06:30]
Mike Baker
Yeah. In fact, it's the lower value stuff you really kind of watch out for because everyone's targeting the, the bigger ones. But the guys that are, you know, playing around with the 50 to 100 cards, you know, those, you just, you can't take it for granted. You gotta look at the card and the value doesn't play into the, to the grading aspects.
- [06:46]
Ryan Alford
You know, I literally had a guy yesterday, Mike, another shop that's in North Carolina, North Carolina guy, no friends with good guy. And he just sent me a text. He said, hey man, be on lookout. There's a guy pedaling fake downtowns, Jackson Dart and somebody else. He said, just FYI and I mean, have you ever been sent a fake card, Mike?
- [07:10]
Mike Baker
Oh, yeah.
- [07:11]
Ryan Alford
Okay.
- [07:12]
Mike Baker
Yeah, lots of fake cards. Yeah. In fact, when I first started at psa, that was kind of like my lane was, you know, trying to be ahead of the curve relative to counterfeits and identification of new ones coming out of the Market. And the great thing about the Internet now, you have guys that have platforms that specialize in this stuff, too. So we're talking about who's the best grader or whatever. There are guys that specialize in certain lanes that are really, really good. And, you know, one of the cool things about our community hobby, whatever, is that there's shit they share. You know, no one wants to see somebody get burned in a hobby where you're spending your discretionary income on stuff you have passion for and then get burned like a downtown, you know, Jackson dark car. That would suck. You know, so it's up to us in the community at large to look out for each other and, you know, share it when you have it. How.
- [08:00]
Ryan Alford
Have you seen some pretty good ones?
- [08:02]
Mike Baker
Oh, yeah, there's really good ones. The vintage. The vintage cards, in terms of, you know, counterfeits are much easier to spot because it's the cardstock that's impossible to replicate. But they get. They put brown sugar and throw them in an oven and try to tone them and kind of throw them in a basement and kind of get that, you know, that vintage smell and look and all that. The downtown.
- [08:27]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, exactly. The.
- [08:28]
Mike Baker
You're. You're kind of. Yeah. 20 minutes of the oven. You'd be surprised what they look like, you know, but the. The modern cards are ones you got to watch out for because the technology and the. And there is no paper. It's all plastic, you know, so different. Different resins and plastics that are making the cards. And that's what's makes. That's what makes it more challenging.
- [08:47]
Ryan Alford
How often now with, you know, Mike Baker authenticated NBA diamonds getting busier. Are you seeing fakes?
- [08:55]
Mike Baker
Not. Not many. You know, I mean, the. The. It's like kind of, you know, PSA would definitely be seen. The. The bigger. Because there's the. The market volume. Yeah, the volume. I mean, they did. I looked at the gem rate numbers that were released for March, and they did over 2 million cards in a month. That's just.
- [09:11]
Ryan Alford
That's insane. Yeah, so. So what, a month maybe. What, every couple months?
- [09:17]
Mike Baker
Yeah, maybe like one a month. That we'll see like, kind of like what the heck kind of stuff, you know, but it's. It's the. The counterfeiting is. That's not the problem. The problem is, you know, alterations relative to trimming and shaping corners and things like that that's more nuanced because you'll get a card that measures, but it doesn't have factory striations on the side. When you're looking at it, you can kind of tell like a nail file or something's kind of honed in the corner to make it look a little. A little tighter or better. So that's. That's where the experience and judgment call kind of comes into play. So.
- [09:47]
Ryan Alford
Yep. How do you feel about people that, like, clean up their cars before sitting for grade? Is that. Is that perfectly okay? I get that. No. Putting paint on it or something? I'm not saying that. I'm not talking about, like, what a used car does to the cars on the lot.
- [10:05]
Mike Baker
Well, it used to be, like, really frowned on, and now you see it when you go to shows. You'll see booths that are set up small specifically to handle it. And they've got. They're branded with grading services in terms of, you know, the prep for going to, wiping fingerprints and whatever. I mean, generally the rule for us is that we grab what we see, you know, and if it smells like bleach, then not going to go, you know. So if someone's putting some additive on it that could be identified, then that's adding something that shouldn't be on the card. But if it's something that you can't identify and you're like throwing darts trying to figure out what's been done, you're going to. You won't have a line. So you just have to grade what you see, take a deep breath, you know, and do your best, basically. So. And stick to the standard.
- [10:46]
Ryan Alford
Would you advise people, I mean, hey, you grade what you see. So clean those cards up before. You obviously don't add chemicals and do things, but yeah, I mean, if there's
- [10:56]
Mike Baker
a fingerprint on the card, I mean, that's going to impact the grade if it can be wiped without damaging the card, you know, and some. You're not going to be able to see it as a grader, you know, I mean, if it's done right and, you know, a fingerprint pops off a chrome card, it's like, what are you gonna do? So it's not. That's not a big deal. You have to be careful doing that, though, too, because if you don't have a, you know, a microfiber towel or some type of whatever you're using, it has any type of contaminants on it. You can scratch the car, too. They're very temperamental, so you want to be careful. So, like, having to go to someone that knows what they're doing probably isn't a bad idea. If you're going to go that route.
- [11:33]
Ryan Alford
My wife would say that they're a lot like me. My temperamental. Yeah. You notice I put that on me and not on her, you know, like, I've been married long enough to know which way to. To direct that. Smart move.
- [11:49]
Mike Baker
Hey, look at this cup I got.
- [11:50]
Ryan Alford
Oh, my God. Yes, the Tigers. I did not know this. Mike came down. I went to Clemson. Lifelong Clemson fan. Worth. We're 20 minutes. The store is 20 minutes from the. The university. And Mike goes, I love it. You know, I think it's how it got found out with Bella, like, right before he got here or something. But Mike's a Clipson fan. I was like, I knew I loved him. Now I really love him. That's hilarious. Yeah. The fact you're in California now, right?
- [12:21]
Mike Baker
Yeah, I live in Oregon now. I'm in Oregon.
- [12:24]
Ryan Alford
Oregon.
- [12:25]
Mike Baker
Growing up in Southern California, I think I had to be like, the only Clemson fan, you know?
- [12:29]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, that is. There is something about that that's quite amazing. The chances of that are. Are slim. But I'm glad he's supporting our Clemson Tigers today with his drink of choice. I'm so. I'm supporting our Atlanta Braves down the road, hoping they. They started a hot cooling off a little. We got to get them started back. They play this afternoon against the Angels, I believe. Yes. They're playing trout. I got trout today. I was looking at the. The odds on that on my trout. One of our sponsors, wonderful sponsors is looking at. I got some bonus credits. I gotta play or they get used up. I was like, looking at as we talked. We're both kind of ex gamblers. Mine, I'm using credits I didn't pay for Mike. So again, I'm not going back off or on the wagon. It's credits I'm using for a sponsor you can appreciate.
- [13:21]
Mike Baker
No judgment.
- [13:22]
Ryan Alford
No judgment. No judgment at all. I thought, everybody get a kick out of this. Mike, you know what? Better. I think there's a lot of curiosity what. How do cars get graded? I mean, you know, the general rules are out there, but I think it is sort of like this black box that everybody's like, wow. Well, for one, everybody thinks they have a 10. You know, all this and everyone that walks in my shop thinks it's. They have a 10, too. A few reasonable people, but mostly unreasonable. And I just thought, hey, Mike can do. Maybe we'll. We'll do this in segments 101. This time we'll do 201, 301, and for that, we do have our microscope camera here. Bella Schaefer our excellent producer, got the microscope hooked up this. I mean, we're getting fancy now, Mike. We have a game worn patch from one of the greatest players to ever live and currently playing. According to me, it's a not for sale in the Ryan Alford personal collection. I just picked this up. I'm trying to get the number on there. It's out of. Does that say 99? That's I believe.
- [14:34]
Mike Baker
Yep.
- [14:35]
Ryan Alford
I'm reading that correct. Yep. 6 out of 99. 6 out of 99. So we have a patch card which are hard to get pins on as it is of stick cards or terrible. But Mike, walk us through. I'll. I'll shift the card where you want it. You tell me kind of the rules, the 101 rules of grading and, and what you do. Yep.
- [14:56]
Mike Baker
Okay. So first thing we do, we take a, a quick measurement. So right now we kind of zoomed in on the corner. But the first thing I would do is measure the card left to right, top to bottom, and then kind of present it to see how the centering looks for the card in terms of its borders, top to bottom, left to right. And then we'd be doing the evaluation with the 7. Power loop is what I use. Looking at the corners under magnification, kind of what we're doing right now. And these cards are. The RPAs are a pain because of the manufacturing process that you just talked about. To get a 10 is really difficult. Kind of the average grade that we see is an 8 and a 9 would be kind of like the 10. So a 10 is definitely, definitely challenging to get one just because they're handled by. There's a whole different manufacturing process. You're adding the patch, sometimes you're adding an autograph. And it's just getting handled way more than a normal card that's being produced. So people coming in with, with those types of cards thinking they have a 10, they're definitely just need to be educated about why the cards sit the
- [16:02]
Ryan Alford
way they sit, set up for disappointment.
- [16:04]
Mike Baker
That's right. That's right. So looking at the corners, they look actually fairly square. I think what we would, you would need to do at this point, like digitally they look square, but even that corner looks like maybe has like a little light, little fuzz on the upper right. So any top layer on the card stock, front or back, would, would count and be considered a flaw. How much of a flaw it's based on how much of the stock is missing and you know, does it. Is the corner truly square? Is it Fuzzy, you know, things like that, that kind of play into what's allowable for a 10, a 9, 5, 8, 5, 8, that type of thing.
- [16:41]
Ryan Alford
And so like, so what is what you're seeing here already disqualifying a 10 most likely.
- [16:47]
Mike Baker
Yeah, just digitally right now it looks like, yeah, it looks like under magnification if, if you were looking at it in person and you had the card and you look closer under magnification with, with a loop or magnifying lens, it looks like that corner has a little, a little rub, a little. A light touch, so to speak. So if you add that touch up with the balance of the corners and I'm sure we'll probably see some similar characteristics to kind of tie in to that. Because generally how they come the profile of those cards, you're probably looking at like an 8, 8, 5 just off that one corner right there. So. Yeah, because I bet you like on the back. Let's, let's turn it over real quick too.
- [17:30]
Ryan Alford
Okay, I'm on the back. Bear with. This is our first segment using digital cam, the Collector Nation digital cam here. So it only gets better over time.
- [17:40]
Mike Baker
Fully branded.
- [17:41]
Ryan Alford
Yeah. Hey, Mike, that's how we do things.
- [17:44]
Mike Baker
There we go.
- [17:44]
Ryan Alford
The NBA Collector Nation digital cam.
- [17:49]
Mike Baker
Yeah, there we go. I love it.
- [17:50]
Ryan Alford
Let's see here.
- [17:51]
Mike Baker
That looks, that looks a little bit better.
- [17:53]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, my zooming in.
- [17:55]
Mike Baker
And this is the back, correct?
- [17:56]
Ryan Alford
This is the back.
- [17:57]
Mike Baker
Yep. Let's take a look at the other corner.
- [18:02]
Ryan Alford
Okay, I'm going to go bottom. That one looks pretty sharp.
- [18:09]
Mike Baker
That one does that does. That does look pretty sharp.
- [18:13]
Ryan Alford
Let's.
- [18:18]
Mike Baker
That one looks like just a slight little touch again.
- [18:21]
Ryan Alford
Possibly.
- [18:23]
Mike Baker
Yeah.
- [18:23]
Ryan Alford
And then final back corner, top. Pretty decent.
- [18:31]
Mike Baker
Yeah, pretty decent. Yeah. I think, I think it's. At this point it would be you looking at it physically, you know, with your, with your eyes or magnification and kind of tying in what you're seeing digitally and see if it's comports to what you're seeing.
- [18:46]
Ryan Alford
Yeah. And then how does stuff maybe walk through the audience through how much does corners take off versus centering versus surface?
- [18:58]
Mike Baker
So with centering, it's less subjective because there's parameters and there's centering devices that you can use to get to line up the, the micrometer zero point on the edge of the card to the border area. That's that you're calling the defined area of the border. So basically for that card it would be, you know, let's see here. So like the bottom of the nameplate would be. So bottom Of Allen. Right. There would be one. One moniker, and then the top of the card would be the other moniker. So you would. You would mic out the distance between the two. That looks pretty good. 55, 45 or better would. Is, you know, allowable for a 10. And then the left to right would be, you know, from the. From the left of the blue from where it starts to the. Yep, that looks pretty darn good too. So I would say that centering wise, that looks like it has the ability to fall into a tent. So that would be the first thing, and that's not subjective. You and I will probably get the exact same measurement using the same device. And it would. It would tell you what the. The centering is left to right, top to bottom on these cards, too. For RPAs and patches, you want to look for the. Where the patch is inserted. Sometimes you'll see surface wrinkles or like, kind of where they were forced in and pressure. And it affects the card stock. So you. Sometimes you'll look at the rim. That's kind of the frame of the. Of the patch. You want to make sure that there's no, you know, wrinkling or kind of like pressure points from the card from the, from the patch being placed in there. That's kind of. That's actually a pretty big tip because people overlook that. They get caught up in, you know, it's a numbered card. It's your favorite player. You know, the centering looks great, the corners are great. And then you forget about looking at the kind of technical detail of the. Of how the patch frame is as well. So.
- [20:44]
Ryan Alford
So I'm hearing from you, Mike, but I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but based on what we've seen here.
- [20:52]
Mike Baker
Yeah.
- [20:53]
Ryan Alford
I might could, you know, get. Look at the corners a little tighter. I mean, we're in that 9 to 10 territory on this card potentially. Right.
- [21:00]
Mike Baker
You're in the 9 to 10 territory relative to centering. And if the. And the overloaders, I don't see any, like, obvious edge chipping from what I saw. So I think those qualities are pretty good. I don't know about surface. You have to look at the. The surface to make sure there's no, like, indentations, sometimes fingernails from the people that are handling RPAs. Sometimes we'll hit the back. So you want to make sure there's none of that. And then the other. The last thing really to kind of tighten up this package would be the. Just the verification of the. The front and back corner tips to ensure that there's no stock loss. There's no poofy corners and things like that that I cannot verify digitally that you would have to do that in person, so.
- [21:40]
Ryan Alford
Or send it to you to.
- [21:42]
Mike Baker
Or send it.
- [21:43]
Ryan Alford
Yeah.
- [21:43]
Mike Baker
Yep, that's right.
- [21:46]
Ryan Alford
The goal.
- [21:47]
Mike Baker
So a lot of the. We have the NBA digital review where we get a ton of. Done a ton of cards on the daily. And really what it is, people, I think, lose sight of the fact that really what the service is for is to help vet what not to send. So if that card was off centered and it had obvious things that I could, you know, point out or do point out, that's something you don't want to send. But things that fall within kind of like this card were, hey, digitally everything looks pretty. Pretty darn good. And then it would just be the physical inspection that would tighten up what you're seeing digitally, basically.
- [22:22]
Ryan Alford
So is it true or untrue that if you slip a hundo in with your card, you get a higher grade?
- [22:30]
Mike Baker
I don't think it makes it to the graders to ever see that, you know, so you'd have to ask the processors and the shipping clerks. That's better for them.
- [22:40]
Ryan Alford
And we don't start conspiracy theories here. I'm sure they're already out there. What's the funniest thing you hear now or in the past on that, on the conspiracy theories that people say? What's the most common thing that people think that is just so far from the truth?
- [22:59]
Mike Baker
I think people that have a good eye, that always seem to have great cards are kind of looked at, that they have an edge. It's not because they have a great eye or they've done. They put in the work and they know what they're doing. It's because there's some reason why my card looks like that and they're getting the benefit and I'm not. And, you know, so basically it goes to the fact, you know, if you soar like an eagle, you attract hunters. And sometimes, you know, it just brings out that kind of. That kind of jealousy or hate or whatever you want to call it. You know, it's kind of like, don't hate the player, hate the game. And, you know, the game is. Is that there's tons of tons of information about what to look for. You know, just this little gradient 101 with the collector station digital cam, you know, is a. Is a good start for how to evaluate cards and make yourself better. You know, a lot of people do this for a living, too. And the people that don't do it for a living that have a 9 to 5. And they're submitting cards because they pulled them from a pack and they believe there are tens. And, you know, the guy that's doing it for a living knows that when you pull a card from a pack, it could have light frictional pack wear from being in the recesses of a pack. And you, you identify things, and so those things don't make it into grading because grading is expensive as well. And so you want to vet what you're going to be submitting, and you submit what you believe is the best of the best. And if you go through that process and you're pretty consistent with it and you grow from it, you're bound to have pretty decent luck, you would think, in terms of getting higher grades just because you're, you know, putting in the work to, to give the graders the best stuff. So I think that's kind of the, that's. That would probably be like the number one thing conspiratorial wise about people getting, you know, better grades and whatnot. They're just, you know, some guys just have better eyes than, than others and what to look for and what the graders are looking for. Some things bug different grading services more than others. So there's little, you know, all these little nuances that you have to, you know, take into account.
- [24:56]
Ryan Alford
Well, we did a, we did a modern card with one of the greatest modern players of all time. Why not do a vintage card a little bit here, Mike, if you'll love it. Don't mind. This is one of my personal cards. I have not had it graded. I just taken it on collection when you came by and it was sitting in my two review stack of things. But this is a Willie Mays. I think this, you probably know the year without me looking at it. Is it 19? Let's zoom in here. My eyes are getting bad. 68, 66.
- [25:31]
Mike Baker
66, 56.
- [25:33]
Ryan Alford
Willie Mays. What am I looking for differently here, Mike?
- [25:41]
Mike Baker
Well, so this is another good little tidbit. Modern cards are, are graded just like vintage cards. So you're looking for the same centering parameters. Apply with the borders that, that are, are, you know, highlighted. You know, you're looking at cornerware, maybe a little bit more edge issues with, with, with vintage cards. You know, they use rubber bands back in the day, so on the top edges and the, on the side edges, you'll see rubber band marks or little, little edge deals from, you know, they're stored differently back then too. You know, card Savers, they weren't around back in the 60s, you know, so they kept them in shoeboxes.
- [26:19]
Ryan Alford
Didn't have shoeboxes. China plastic.
- [26:22]
Mike Baker
That's right. So basically. Yeah, well, cheap china plastic wasn't around there neither.
- [26:27]
Ryan Alford
That's the truth.
- [26:27]
Mike Baker
So it was just. Things were just stored differently. They were handled differently. Now there's way more of an awareness. That's why when you see cards that are, you know, 8, 9, and 10 that are vintage cards, it's like that's the kid that had a toy that never opened it and played with it, you know, there. And that's why the cards are so expensive, because there's just not a huge population of this stuff, you know, in high grade. And so the supply and demand, you know, drives the prices. And you throw grading into it relative to eight, nines and tens, and you throw a population report and a set registry. All of a sudden it's gamified and, you know, it's like, I gotta have it. And prices go up based on the, on the supply. So.
- [27:04]
Ryan Alford
All right, let me ask. Here's something that I hear, even, I think I hear myself saying it sometimes.
- [27:08]
Mike Baker
Yep.
- [27:09]
Ryan Alford
And I know it's probably not true, so you're gonna debunk it, but damn it, I like to live in the fairy world sometimes, Mike. Fairy tale. Yeah. It just makes. We all do in the, in the hobby, convincing ourselves there's a little more lenience for corners on class. Older cards than new, modern cards. True or false?
- [27:29]
Mike Baker
There can be. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, everyone wants to, you know, go with the, the, the fact that it should be consistent to what you're doing and whatever. Everything should. Grading a 2000, you know, car or 20, 26 car to a, know, 1966 card, you know, it should be that way. But the cards are different because we're dealing with paper with 66 car, you know, 66 tops. You're dealing with plastic with 20, 26. So the cards the cards wear is different. So the interpretation of what. What's out of bounds for an eight, what's out of bounds for a nine, and, and, and in those two. Those two areas are, are more subjective.
- [28:11]
Ryan Alford
So you might have more tolerance than on an older card. Vintage card on a perfectly square corner being a 10, it might be. What would be a 10 and a vintage card might be a 9 on a modern card.
- [28:29]
Mike Baker
Well, I don't. Well, it could be.
- [28:30]
Ryan Alford
I know it's not apples to apples because like you just said, paper versus plastic.
- [28:33]
Mike Baker
Yeah. It's paper versus plastic. It's how the wear is associated in terms of how you're kind of identifying the grade that you want to associate to the card. And it's not just one thing too. I mean, if you have a, you know, 66 tops and everything's there and that card center, that card traditionally comes really off center. It has a lot of print effect that comes with it. The back centering is always trash. So, you know, you take all those things into consideration and, you know, you come up with it. I will say though that if you have a corner hit, it's not going to go 10. It shouldn't go 10. And when we talk about 10 too, we're talking about gem mint, we're not talking about 10 pristine, we're not talking about 10 flawless gem. 10 gem mint can have, you know, subtle little defects or flaws on the card, you know, so if it had a little hit on the back, the corner square, but it's just a little touch, you know, you're talking 9, possible 9, 5 if everything else was there in totality of the card though. So it has to be awesome to kind of carry it over the defect or the flaw that is kind of like, you know, identifiable like on a corner or whatever.
- [29:37]
Ryan Alford
So what am I seeing here again? Mike Baker, authenticated. Mike Baker, world's greatest grader here with us on Pleasure Nation. But, but the, this corner here, we're on the, we're on the 66. We turned 66 Willie Mays, tops. What are we seeing?
- [29:58]
Mike Baker
Okay, so first off, we're looking at the number one card in the set. So the number one card in the set is always going to be more temperamental and condition sensitive because that sits in the front of the 2, 3, 4, 5, right behind it. Usually this card has band marks or something to kind of keep it. It's always the first one to be grabbed in terms of how it was stored. So that's always the first and last card. Are always kind of a condition sensitive card. They usually sell for a little bit more money, especially when they're a hall of Famer. So it's good to know to kind of keep that in the mind. Why the number one cuts not just because of Mays, it's because that's the
- [30:30]
Ryan Alford
number one card and because it's maze. That's right.
- [30:35]
Mike Baker
You're checking some boxes with this one. What I'm kind of looking at right now on the upper left kind of going into like maybe a 64th in the card. Looks like there's Some identifiable wear. Am I picking that off right, or is a lighting playing games with me?
- [30:49]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, no, you're picking it up.
- [30:51]
Mike Baker
Yeah, there's a little. Little bit there. I saw some of the wear on the front. Immediately, I was thinking 5, 6 range.
- [31:00]
Ryan Alford
Yeah.
- [31:00]
Mike Baker
You know, in terms of what I. The two corners that I saw. So if. If the corner wear on the front, the first two corners that I saw match, kind of what we're working with here, I'd say it's like X to X mint, which is a five or six. You know, at the top, it could get maybe a half point, because what I saw of the card in the front, it looked fairly decently centered. So center cards will kind of play into a half point. In terms of its overall. Overall eye appeal, that definitely plays into NBA 0.5 for sure.
- [31:30]
Ryan Alford
Yep.
- [31:30]
Mike Baker
So
- [31:33]
Ryan Alford
it definitely. You know, I was crying on the inside when you said the back's usually not centered. There's trash. Yeah, that would be affirmative. On this one. If we get to this side.
- [31:45]
Mike Baker
Yeah, it's. It's not horrible, though, because a lot of them will come like, you know, 85, 15, 90, 10. And then it.
- [31:51]
Ryan Alford
Then.
- [31:51]
Mike Baker
Then it makes it more challenging. That has a little bit more corner wear there on the side. It looks like there's even a little bit on the edge there to the left of the corner. Yep.
- [32:00]
Ryan Alford
And then we've got this. So as far as centering goes. So you got that. And let's go to this side. So we're saying not terrible, but not good.
- [32:14]
Mike Baker
Yeah, I mean, there. It's. There's this. You know, that's probably average. Is that a little crease there in the black or a wrinkle where the. Where the ball go? Yeah, that line right where that. Where it says. Yep, that's a crease right there. A wrinkle.
- [32:30]
Ryan Alford
Yep. Yep.
- [32:31]
Mike Baker
So that will impact. So let's say the card is like a nine. That right there, if it goes front and back, is going to be like a four.
- [32:40]
Ryan Alford
Yeah.
- [32:40]
Mike Baker
So that. That. That right there definitely hurts the overall grade. And so you can have, like, a perfect card or you think it's a 10 and have something like that. Those also come with modern cards. Sometimes in the manufacturing process, you know, you'll just get weird, you know, manufacturing oddities and creases. Wrinkles can pop up, and you definitely want to catch those. So some of the lighting and whatnot can kind of play tricks in your head.
- [33:05]
Ryan Alford
Yep. What. So how does surface look from what you can see on a digital camera? Really zoomed in. Yeah. Yeah. How many variables can we put against you, Mike? But yeah.
- [33:22]
Mike Baker
Well, let's go up together now. Let's. So what we're looking for here. So right there, see that wrinkle in the blue and the left?
- [33:32]
Ryan Alford
Yep.
- [33:33]
Mike Baker
Yep. So there or most likely a crease goes front and back. That's pretty heavy.
- [33:37]
Ryan Alford
Yep.
- [33:38]
Mike Baker
So that one's going all the way to the top. Yep. So, okay, so now we're talking VG. VGX. So that would be 3, 4 range based on the severity of that, you know, so. So we were talking about corners, we're talking about surface. So you take everything into consideration, including the centering on the back and just kind of like shotgunning it digitally. That looks definitely like a 3 if.
- [34:07]
Ryan Alford
If it didn't have that crease.
- [34:09]
Mike Baker
Yep.
- [34:10]
Ryan Alford
Based on centering in corners that you can see digitally. Obviously it's an official grade, but.
- [34:15]
Mike Baker
Yeah.
- [34:15]
Ryan Alford
Are we 6, 5?
- [34:17]
Mike Baker
Probably a 5 or a 6 based on the cornerware.
- [34:20]
Ryan Alford
Yeah.
- [34:20]
Mike Baker
Digitally. Yep.
- [34:23]
Ryan Alford
So pretty good copy if it doesn't have that crease.
- [34:27]
Mike Baker
And you know what? And this is why the number one card again and the last cars. This is completely consistent with what I would expect to see from a card like this. And the number that it is for sure being the first card.
- [34:41]
Ryan Alford
So instead of 7 million, it's only 2 million for sale. It's characterstation.com. that's right.
- [34:46]
Mike Baker
Say, hey, kid. Showing some love.
- [34:50]
Ryan Alford
Yes. I love it. Also had this one, but you know who this guy is? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So is there anything special? What year is this? This is a 66 as well. I love how he could tell just
- [35:09]
Mike Baker
based on the face.
- [35:11]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, of course. It's one of her. Rose. It's a good hit machine. He's the greatest.
- [35:16]
Mike Baker
Holy car. Geeking out. You know, it's a lot of years checking it out.
- [35:19]
Ryan Alford
Is this what year was. It's like his third or fourth year. I can't remember.
- [35:24]
Mike Baker
So his rookies. 63. So that would be his third year card.
- [35:34]
Ryan Alford
So corner there, little surface.
- [35:37]
Mike Baker
Actually, his fourth year card is gonna be 63, 64, 65, 66.
- [35:44]
Ryan Alford
I think Pete Rose should be in the hall of fame.
- [35:49]
Mike Baker
Yes, I think he should be in the hall of fame based on what he did on the field. You know, the.
- [35:57]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, I mean, he was a liar, but we all are at some point in our life. So, I mean, I. I think his character is one thing, but his play on the field, you know, from that incident, I'm not judging him overall.
- [36:08]
Mike Baker
Yeah.
- [36:09]
Ryan Alford
But he's but his play on the field sort of. I, I just don't. You're gonna get in.
- [36:17]
Mike Baker
There's, you know, there's those player clauses in the contract where you're representing baseball, you're representing the team and organization and you know, if you're doing something out of bounds or whatever, the likelihood of you getting in is really difficult. You know, especially modern era guys. I mean him getting in now and Joe Jackson and you know, obviously gambling and any sports is a big no no. So. And you get caught doing it, it definitely, you know, I mean he had to live that and wear that cross for his entire life basically.
- [36:46]
Ryan Alford
So, you know, I still think he should be in. Yeah.
- [36:51]
Mike Baker
4,000 hits. He wasn't gambling on that. No, he wasn't more than 4,000. So we're looking same type of light corner wear touches. You know those, those look like X Men 6 type corners to me. Little, little edge issue that you just rolled up on right there. You can see there. Yep. That's getting more into like what a rubber band does to a card. And that's exactly again, profile wise what you'd expect to see in some of the vintage stuff. Yep. That that corner has been hit pretty good is.
- [37:24]
Ryan Alford
What's that? Got another crease maybe we like our creases on these cards. Know what that is? See if I can get it to where you can actually see it.
- [37:38]
Mike Baker
Yeah.
- [37:43]
Ryan Alford
A little smaller though.
- [37:44]
Mike Baker
A little smaller. Does it go front and back? So just for your listeners, the, the difference between a wrinkle. Wrinkle only affects one side of the card and a crease is going front and back and that that impacts the grade too.
- [38:00]
Ryan Alford
A crease, you'll see it on the back the way I did. We did on the other.
- [38:03]
Mike Baker
Yeah, it looks like it should because it looks fairly, you know, kind of impactful a little bit. But sometimes you'll see something that you almost like would bet your house on. It's going to go front, back and it. And it's not. It just got crimped up and it never, never broke the surface of the, of the back. So
- [38:21]
Ryan Alford
trying to get the light correct here on the location of those two.
- [38:26]
Mike Baker
Play a part too. If that was near the face it would be judged way harsher or much more impactful flaw than it would be if it's like in a corner or kind of in the bottom corner.
- [38:35]
Ryan Alford
Just very, very, very unimpactful, Mike. I mean men have really bought small corner. I mean not no impact at all. Are you saying it actually increases the grade because of the rarity of the location it's in.
- [38:45]
Mike Baker
It has originality.
- [38:49]
Ryan Alford
That's the thing us collectors talk ourselves, I mean. But, you know, I tried to convince myself that a crimp made it a 101. You know, like a factory crimp. You ever heard that argument?
- [39:02]
Mike Baker
I've heard that people like, you know, oversized cards or miscuts because it shows the originality from the factory and whatnot. So there's no. No, you know, shenanigans or no. No question of whether or not the card is what it is. So there's. There's something for everybody in the community, that's for sure.
- [39:21]
Ryan Alford
Or just people like me trying to convince ourselves that it's worth more. Yeah. How about that? See how that line, the black line at the top almost looks like. Is that. Is that an imperfection?
- [39:32]
Mike Baker
It's a. It's a real minor one. I mean, if we're talking. If we're talking 910, that would. That might be taken into effect based on the other. The other attributes of the card. Yeah.
- [39:41]
Ryan Alford
Okay, so what's. Again, I know we've kind of breezed through this one. Centering.
- [39:48]
Mike Baker
Yeah.
- [39:49]
Ryan Alford
But this is another one that's maybe a 6, but probably a 4. No, with the crease, though, probably.
- [39:56]
Mike Baker
Or the wrinkle, because you're saying that it didn't go through. That would probably be a four.
- [40:00]
Ryan Alford
Okay. All right, cool. I'm gonna go cry in the back after the show. I'm just kidding. I. I knew these had flaws, and they were bought accordingly. But y. I will be polishing them up for my display in my box, not to be sold. None of my PC is for sale, so.
- [40:21]
Mike Baker
Well, at least. At least when you go to your office, go into your office and grab the solace that you need. You have to hit the drink combination to get into it.
- [40:29]
Ryan Alford
Yes, I do. Oh, it's. Yes, Mike. Yes. I'm glad you brought that up. I love it. Dr. Pepper, Sprite, Mr. Pibb, Mountain Dew for you, buddy. I love them all. Yes, I did install. If you haven't seen the videos already, and more to become. I did. I actually filmed another one the other day. I did put a old vintage Pepsi machine door, and really the whole box is the entrance to my office. So Mike was down and got to see that.
- [41:00]
Mike Baker
Yeah, it's very cool.
- [41:01]
Ryan Alford
Very, very gentle. At a card shop. Right?
- [41:04]
Mike Baker
I love it. Gotta make. You gotta. You gotta make yourself different, and that's what makes it, you know, do something a little bit better. A little bit different than everybody else and it brings some, you know, new flair to it. Right.
- [41:14]
Ryan Alford
I know. Hey, and now I'm, I'm making it, you know, like a, you know, the big hitters lounge, you know, come back for the big trades, you know, like, or if you just have something I want, I'll invite you back. Perfect. I'm always 8 year old, kid comes in, I'm like, hey buddy, you want to come to. I'm like, bring your par. This isn't weird. I just really like that card you have. I'm gonna give you as many Mountain Dews as you want until you trade me that card. Yeah.
- [41:41]
Mike Baker
I have a question for you. How's the, how's your drive through shaping up?
- [41:45]
Ryan Alford
It's good. Honestly. It's a, it's exactly what it's meant to be. It's, it's, it's a, a point of discussion and marketing. Conversation and conversation starter.
- [41:56]
Mike Baker
Yep.
- [41:57]
Ryan Alford
What we are going to do to facilitate like, you know, we're open six days a week. We, we've been toying around, you know, is it five, six, whatever. We might do a drive through only day so that people, you know, so that we can get some things done.
- [42:13]
Mike Baker
Yep.
- [42:14]
Ryan Alford
And not have people in the entire store. But it sort of facilitates and becomes useful. So hey, you can order online or call in or you know, we're not, I love it. We're not gonna mystery shop for you or anything but like you can, yeah, you know what you want, come to the window, we'll check you out. So we'll probably facilitate the usage, but it is a, a, an attractor of, of business and discussion. Maybe more than it's being used. It, it is a catalyst.
- [42:40]
Mike Baker
I agree.
- [42:41]
Ryan Alford
And that was the point. I'll be honest. I was like. Because it didn't really serve a purpose otherwise. And I was like, right, right. Let's at least make it a marketing and discussion point.
- [42:49]
Mike Baker
It's, it's totally fun. I love it.
- [42:51]
Ryan Alford
Yes. Yeah. And I do, I do think there will be. Because it's the first two, you don't have people that are used to that, so they don't know to do that. And I think as we educate more and as we get more business, even though business has been really good, I could see it getting used more. But I really don't care if it gets used, you know, five times ever.
- [43:14]
Mike Baker
Right. Well, part, part of, part of, you know, the whole collecting experience is like the, you know, is the interaction and you know, know, shopping and talking about this at the other, talking about your Braves clutching tigers, whatever it may be, you know, it has a purpose but it's, you know, like I, I agree it's great marketing and it'll draw people in for sure.
- [43:33]
Ryan Alford
Mike, where what's the schedule for NBA? Any new things coming out? New? You know, I know you've got a lot of, you know, growth happening and all those things, but.
- [43:43]
Mike Baker
Yeah.
- [43:44]
Ryan Alford
What's the quick NBA update?
- [43:46]
Mike Baker
Quick little snapshot is our travel schedule. I just lined out till the end of October. We're going to be pretty much here, there, everywhere, twice a month at minimum, sometimes three times a month. Leaving for Cleveland tomorrow, going to the Strongsville, Ohio show. We'll be doing the diamond certification on site. I'm flying to Heritage Auctions Sunday night to do their auction for diamond certification. On Monday I get back to headquarters at a couple days of, you know, catch up in the office and then take off to the Boston Shriner show on Thursday, come back Sunday and then we're going to be doing on site card grading at the Dallas show in May. So that'll be a big, a big lift operationally for us to have basically our, almost our entire office in Dallas facilitating on site card grading encapsulation. So that'll be a kind of a good precursor for the, for the national because we're going to provide the service there as well so we can work out some kinks and debug some things and hopefully not make a mess of things and, you know, make it happen.
- [44:45]
Ryan Alford
Yeah.
- [44:46]
Mike Baker
The digital review box, much like what we were just going over with you with digitally, with looking at cards, I wanted to bring it to your shop and kind of launch it there. I literally picked it up this morning. I saw it. It's awesome.
- [44:59]
Ryan Alford
Nice.
- [44:59]
Mike Baker
So I'm looking forward to getting one out to you. So you'll be able to have your customers put the card underneath it digitally would go to us and you know, we'd be able to give instant feedback and have them kind of help vet what to send off or not send off. We haven't expanded into the rock hard area so like doing this rock hard digital. Guess the grade type thing is something we've kind of toyed with. But generally speaking it's for previously third party graded cards, cards that have already been graded psa, sgc, tag, BGS and cgc. So, so we're ramping up. Launched our new backend admin system which was a big lift. We've been working on that for almost four months. So that's huge. It's really made us a lot more efficient. We can track things better, make the customer experience much more, you know, user friendly. So we've got a lot of, a lot of things in the, in the hopper. There's not enough time in the day, as you know, so we're just keep trucking, keep prioritize the things that have the most impact and keep, keep trucking. So.
- [46:02]
Ryan Alford
Love it. So will you be. You'll be grading on site at the National? That I hear that correct. Okay. And like grading there, like turn it in day one, get it back day three or so, that kind of thing.
- [46:13]
Mike Baker
Well, we'll have service lines that you can, if you have to have the card back, you can get it back in a few hours. You can get it back same day.
- [46:20]
Ryan Alford
Okay.
- [46:21]
Mike Baker
You'll get back next day. So a lot of that's going to be dependent on obviously how much we, we get relative. We might gate it to a certain amount, you know, based on what we're getting. I don't know. It's kind of like. That's why I think with the Dallas show is going to kind of give us some, some good data to kind of figure out how to approach the National. And how many holders are we bringing? Are we just going to bring, you know, the number one holder, which is the two and a half by three and a half and just kind of stick to 1957 tops, to present.
- [46:49]
Ryan Alford
Yep.
- [46:49]
Mike Baker
You know, so because we have a, we have a number of holders, Gowdy T206, you know, Bowman. So there's a ton of stuff and, you know, that's where it gets really interesting, both logistically, operationally expense all that stuff. It's got to be the business case to kind of like bring your entire office and move it for, you know, five days and then make everything seem like it's perfect, you know, So I
- [47:12]
Ryan Alford
don't know if everybody paid attention there. I just heard a challenge. It's called we want 20,000 cards brought to NBA at the National. Like 20. Everybody bring your cards. If you're listening, I'll pay everyone a dollar out of my pocket because I want to get to 10,000 cars for NBA at the National. So they. I want Mike to cry uncle like, hey, it's a good thing, though. I'm kidding, but not kidding.
- [47:38]
Mike Baker
Yeah,
- [47:40]
Ryan Alford
yeah.
- [47:41]
Mike Baker
I mean, to do 10,000 cards in five days would be like a. That's a lift. You know, I don't even think the bigger services could pull that, honestly, at least in a fair amount of time. I Think mainly it would be a 10,000 card submissions. Do what you can at the show.
- [47:56]
Ryan Alford
Yeah, we're hiring graders here on aisle 10. Hiring graders. If you've got a keen eye, come down to Mike Baker authenticated. We might need that. You have to lower your standards for hiring.
- [48:11]
Mike Baker
That's one thing I will gate. That's why we're gated right now is because we're finding the right people that I will say it so there won't be. We're not looking just to put stuff out the door. We could be. We could be doing thousands of cards right now a day if we wanted to. We're holding it back till we find the right people and then scale appropriately. So our product's pretty awesome. I. You know, not to chest bump it, but it's pretty legit.
- [48:36]
Ryan Alford
So I think this is a 10 right here.
- [48:38]
Mike Baker
That is a 10. That is a 10. Pristine.
- [48:40]
Ryan Alford
Oh yeah. Our Pokemon ascended heroes that we sent Mike that he brought and delivered. Let me say it's the only one we got. So there was no cheating. Friends. Friends and everything. You know, he.
- [48:54]
Mike Baker
Well, that, you know, any new service too is going to get scrutinized. So, you know, you. You hold the standard from the get from day one and you keep it going. That's what builds the consistency and more importantly, the trust. Yeah, you build the trust with the collector community. People know what to expect. There's not a lot of highs and lows. And you communicate and you're transparent about everything. That's the most important thing. So we'll live and die on that
- [49:18]
Ryan Alford
one of my Quinn yours. I got three of the same parallel autograph Quinn years out of one break out of one case, three out of 100. There's only 100 made. I got three of them in one break of Quinn Ewers. That was one of you graded. No, it was the craziest thing. 150 card and he broke he. It was 12 packs. It was a break where there's only 12 packs open. It's. They're one pack boxes. So he opened 12 packs and got three Quinn. And I had Quinn Ewers as my A player. I got a random draw of players and I got Quinn. I've never seen. I thought the odds of that happening, Mike, because it was out of a hundred. So it was a numbered auto at that. I got three out of 100 out of one case break.
- [50:03]
Mike Baker
I would have. As soon as I got the third one, I would have booked a ticket to Vegas and kept the roll going.
- [50:08]
Ryan Alford
Honestly. It's probably, like, the odds are probably like 1 in 250,000. Like, it's. It's insanity. Like, that's good for you. I mean, I wish it was Jackson dart, but, you know, Quinn's a good player. It's still 150 card, so I think I spent like 40 bucks on hangout. Yeah, yeah. 500. And actually more because now I have a 9.5 graded mint NBA of the card. So I got one of the three, the best one that we thought had the best chance, and we were close. 9.5. Nothing to. Nothing to sneeze at. I was the one that. That picked which out of the three we were sending.
- [50:49]
Mike Baker
Wisely.
- [50:50]
Ryan Alford
Fella's got the eye. Good job. Yep, she does. You have to start looking at more cards. Yeah, right. I had Cole check my work. Don't worry. Oh, Cole's pretty good, too.
- [51:02]
Mike Baker
The Clifter Nation Collector Station staff, they all have a good eye.
- [51:06]
Ryan Alford
Yes, exactly. We got to have a. Mike dropped the website. And I know you said all the locations, but the website, social, all that stuff.
- [51:17]
Mike Baker
Yeah, basically. Thank you. It's NBA. Diamond.com is the website, and NBA Diamonds with the S for Instagram. We have our show schedule posted. Please. We're really aggressive going out there, shaking hands and kissing babies. So talking about NBA, talking about the industry. So if you're around any of those shows, come on by, say hi.
- [51:34]
Ryan Alford
Look, guys, it's clear that Mike and I have a relationship, but it's because I like him, because he's transparent. I'm raw. I'm real. He is, pun intended here in the hobby, but I'm telling you, this is what you want. We talk about grading. We talk about this black box. And look, Mike's been with the best, the biggest, all those. He's done all those things, but he's real. Don't forget that. Go support this guy. Support what they're doing in NBA Diamonds. Because I do appreciate you, Mike.
- [52:01]
Mike Baker
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Always.
- [52:03]
Ryan Alford
Hey, guys. The Collector Nation dot com. Go visit the site, learn more about what we're doing. And of course, the app is always out there. And hey, if you want to see more about what we're doing in the store, the Collector station dot com. You know where I'm at. I'm Ryan Alford on Instagram. That's where to hit me. I read every dm. Get hundreds a week. Send me more, more, more. I love you. Appreciate you. We'll see you next time on Collector Nation.
- [52:26]
Podcast Host
Thanks for tuning in to the show. Be sure to follow us on your Go to Podcast platform and catch the full video episode over on YouTube. Visit us@collectornation.com and follow Ryan on Instagram. Ryan Alford now get out there and collect yours.
- [52:48]
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