← Collector Nation
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- [00:00]
A
I'll go pick up a card. Even for a buck or two, I'll take a picture of that. Facebook's paying me for that picture. I make a video. I get money for that on four different sites. So I arbitrage my time three, four, five different ways, sometimes on every individual thing I'm doing.
- [00:15]
B
Not everyone understands that content can drive commerce. Commerce can drive content.
- [00:22]
C
Welcome to the Collector Nation podcast. Here on the Collector Nation Network. Whether you're chasing grails or calling bluffs, we take you inside the hobby. Here's your host, Ryan Alford.
- [00:44]
B
Most people in the hobby are focused on collecting or investing, but there's a whole other side to it. Flipping, finding deals, buying low, selling high. You know I'm talking about and doing it consistently. Gary Williams, known as American Arbitrage, has built a business and a following around exactly that. Gary, man, great to have you on. Welcome to the show. What's happening?
- [01:06]
A
Not much, man. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm on the podcast, man. I'm excited to talk about sports cards. That's what I love, man.
- [01:13]
B
That's what I love, the word arbitrage. It's. You know what some irony is? I literally was writing a job description for my store, and I wrote director of Arbitrage.
- [01:27]
A
I like it.
- [01:28]
B
Instead of, like, inventory management, Director of Arbitrage.
- [01:33]
A
I feel like it's a word that's not used very heavily in the sports card space and should be, because that's all I'm doing is I'm finding stuff that's underpriced and I'm putting it in the correct location so that I can get what it's worth. I'm not even. I'm not spending a lot of time, like, out here guessing who's going to get hot or who's not. I'm finding those guys, you know, out there under price, and I'm selling them why they're hot. That's. That's my whole game plan. Arbitrage. I love it.
- [01:57]
B
And you got it in the name American Arbitrage.
- [02:00]
A
Yeah, a little alliteration.
- [02:01]
B
Yeah, I like it. Aac. American Arbitrage cards. Yeah, that's me.
- [02:06]
A
That's me.
- [02:07]
B
The rolls. I like it. As a marketer, first, I'm picking up what you're throwing down. What's. I mean, is flipping have a bad name? Like, if people hear that, they go flipping. Like, I mean, is it. Is it. Is it that? Or is it. Is that just the impression I'm getting? Like, when I no, because I give a. But because more like picking up like I respect the game but it's like, oh, flippers are doing that.
- [02:32]
A
You know, based on my comments. Yeah, Flippers, there's a. There is a subsect of people that, that don't like it. So it does have a bad name in a way.
- [02:41]
B
Flippers and scalpers the same.
- [02:43]
A
They're different in my opinion. They're different because a scalper would be outgoing and buying like a retail product and buying it all out and then selling it maybe Amazon style or like you've seen in the past with all the boxes at Walmart. They go buy all the retail and then they upsell it. That still happens a bit. What I'm doing is a little bit more nuanced. I'm out there finding like deals typically paying prices that people have stickered or making a deal near that sticker price. I'm not the best negotiator in the world, honestly, but I leverage my, my knowledge of sports cards that I've acquired over doing this since I was 7. I'm 42 now, so I've been into cards my whole life. Very. Only took a few years off in college and a few years. I mean, I was doing it in 2008, 2016. I was. I've been in it pretty much nonstop for 36 years now. So you start to notice patterns, you know, what's hot, what's not. And you know, I'm not above buying a card for a buck and selling it for 250 and making a dollar profit. I'll do that at scale along with everything else and buy and flip. So yeah, I think there is a little bit of a misconception about flippers out there, but we're just out there kind of providing a service. People want to move cards, especially with what I do, which is a little bit lower end. A lot of people don't want to deal with those cards. They want to deal with the bigger flips. They get an excess of that stuff. And I can basically get in there and get that stuff for a good deal and make the profit myself. I'll do the work.
- [04:09]
B
I don't want to devote too much time to the trolls. But I'm just going to say it for the record here. Since I have this show, we have this platform, you got a big platform, get a life. Like, why do you. I get it the whole again, but it's like, why do you care? Like, it's like some people collect, some people flip, some people. It's a Business. Some people, it's not, it's not. People just want to complain about something and they want to put their nose in everybody. Betty's business versus I get, I get the scalper thing a little bit, but even that, I'm like, go in front of them, work harder, go faster. You know, like, exactly. But I can understand it a bit, you know, like going and taking 20 boxes. But most of the retailers are cutting that now with the product.
- [04:58]
A
People should be cool if you're going there to buy a couple boxes at Walmart, because Topps Chrome Football came out to flip. If there's other people there, you know, just be reasonable, take a couple boxes, move on. You don't need to clear it out. If they're, there's kids there, let them get some boxes. I mean, just be nice. That's all you have to do. Be a good human. But yeah, there's always going to be. I mean, I learned that really quickly starting content in 2019, that, that some people just want to complain and some people want to say negative stuff. That's how they interact with the Internet. So I got a quick skin pretty quick. I remember the first time somebody said something pretty negative, I was taken aback. I'm like, I'm just talking about going to the thrift store at that time and finding something to flip. You know, it wasn't that big of a deal. And then pretty quickly it became more comical to me than anything. I'm like, I'm looking for the best line you got and I'll have some fun with it. You know, it's, it's more of a game to me at this point. I don't.
- [05:50]
B
When did it become the thing that you do is your career slash job? Like how, when did that. Only through that time timeline.
- [06:00]
A
It just kind of happened to me, man. I graduated from College in, in 2011 from the University of Utah. I was supposed to do something else. I, I, I taught a little bit of Spanish in college. After school at a private school, I was going to go back and, and
- [06:16]
B
that girl you liked in sixth period. Yeah, she taught you a little Spanish, huh?
- [06:21]
A
Yeah, no, I lived, I actually lived in Mexico for two years. Learned Spanish, so I'm fluent in Spanish and I have a history degree, a Spanish degree and a political science degree. So I was going to go back. I was going to go back and study and, and be a teacher probably of history, maybe like some Mexican or French history. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do and that didn't happen. The, you know, it was kind of during the recession. I started reselling on ebay just naturally. And within about six months I'm like, I don't really want to go back to school. I'm going to go get a shop. So I got a shop, an antique shop, and, and ran that for about seven, eight, nine years. Had an auction house in Utah, did all sorts of stuff. And cards were always like one of my favorite things to sell within that world. And then I started my content when I was still doing that in 2019.
- [07:07]
B
Okay, so, so that's kind of how it switched over is around that time, about seven years ago. Ish.
- [07:14]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I started my, my main channel, American Arbitrage, about three months before the pandemic, give or take. So it was just the timing. And then Tik Tok blew up for me really fast. I got almost to a million followers on Tik Tok real fast, just doing thrift store and garage sale videos. I talked a little bit about cards, but then I, I, over time stopped talking about cards on that channel. And then I started a card channel. So, and that's been about three, four years now I've been doing the card channel.
- [07:45]
B
So as someone that does this for a career and as a business guy, like, not, don't, I'm not even asking for like numbers, but more like percentages of like, what makes up the pie of being a, you know, full time master of arbitrage.
- [08:05]
A
Like, that's a good, that's a good question. Because some of the arbitrage I'm doing is my time for, for content money. And people don't really realize that every time I go out, you know, and I'll go pick up a card, even for a buck or two, I'll take a picture of that. Facebook's paying me for that picture. They pay for that. You know, I make a video, I get money for that on four different sites. So I arbitrage my time three, four or five different ways sometimes on every individual thing I'm doing. So at the moment, on any given month, I'm making more on content than I am on flipping at this point, probably 60, 70, 40, 30, give or take. My goal always is to have about. My goal is four different streams of revenue that could pay all my bills, you know, and you know, that ebbs and flows, what that is. I probably have like 12 or 13 different revenue streams from, from reselling to different sites to ad revenue. I do all sorts of release. You know, it's an eclectic way to live, but it's it's very 20, 26. You know, I, I do a little bit of everything and I've got my hand in a lot of different pots.
- [09:08]
B
The gig economy is, it really is.
- [09:10]
A
It's just a ton of different gigs and I've been lucky that a few have become really successful that they could, I could just do those and be good. But I'm always trying to figure out what the next thing is, because the one thing about this is it fluctuate. Things go up, go down and I want to be as secure as I can in this kind of lifestyle. It's hard.
- [09:31]
B
Yeah. And for anybody listening, you know, it want to kind of go down a couple paths here with you. So I think there's two sides of this coin. I think there's two sides where not everyone understands that content can drive commerce, commerce can drive content. That you're the perfect example of this, right? Hey, I'm flipping, just flipping. But then it becomes content because you start filming it, you start learning the algorithms, you make it interesting and, and then it pays. But you got to keep doing the buying to make the content. Kind of keep doing the content to do the buying. Like it, it's man's true flywheel in a way. But while some people get that, some people don't. The ones that do get it, they go, he must make millions on YouTube. So I want you to both debunk, you know, both prop up. Hey, content's great. You can make it a career, but also maybe be real with people on, where does the, where does the milk get made for content? And it, how hard is it to, to actually do that?
- [10:44]
A
Oh, content is, it's, it's definitely, it's, it's not, not physically hard, but it is mentally hard. Like you have to be super consistent to make it, to be able to grow all my pages. I didn't miss days, you know, uploading I right now on YouTube. This is my seventh year on YouTube. I'm doing daily, you know, sometimes 20, 30, 40 minute videos on one of my channels. So, you know, long form YouTube videos, it is a grind. It is work. And if you're successful, you can make a living doing it. Can you be a millionaire? You could break out. You could break out and that can happen. But is it, you know, that's also something that you have to really work super hard to sustain. There's, you know, a thousand stories of YouTubers who, who don't make the kind of money they used to. But I think YouTube and content creation is an awesome vehicle in this day and age to, to make a living or at least supplement a living. And that's really how I use it. I use it as one part of what I do and it's one part I love and it's one part that I feel like if I put the effort in, I can get something back out of it. But I've also put a lot of time in studying what works and what doesn't work and, and things are constantly changing. I constantly have to adapt because something stops working. So it is a lot of work. You can do it. I didn't think I was going to be able to do it and I did. So if you really want it bad enough, I think most people can, can figure it out, you know, some way to do it. It might not be the exact way you envision it when you start. You may have to adapt and do something a little different within it but, but you can do it.
- [12:10]
B
Is YouTube the like for looking at this, like again I'm look at my circle chart, you know, the pie. Yeah, you've got, you know, Facebook pays, Instagram pays, TikTok pays, YouTube pays. Is YouTube by and far the best, most lucrative path for payment.
- [12:32]
A
It's the most consistent path. It's the one that if you put, you know, you put A and you'll get B consistently. Everything else is fairly up and down at the moment as they build kind of that algorithm and, and the content creation like it's, it's newer with Instagram, Facebook and Tick Tock than it is for YouTube. So YouTube right now like piece of the pie wise. Just so you know, I have two channels and two podcasts. So I mean it with all those in, in, in tow, I probably make about 30%, 40% of my content money on that. But Facebook for the last couple months was making more than, than YouTube for me. But that, that's gone down just the last couple months. So it's up and down. There's been definite times where TikTok was making the most tick. Tock's been tougher in the last year, year and a half. But there was time, a time where
- [13:20]
B
they get paid those lawyer bills.
- [13:22]
A
Exactly. So like, like TikTok, there was a time where it was definitely my number one driver but now I just use them all in different months, different things pop and other times they don't. But yeah, content creation, like I said, it's probably 60 or 70% of my revenue on any given given year and then the content, you know, fuels that. But also I've built Up some pages and stuff that. That make me pretty good money selling my stuff. So it's. It's a. It's a. Definitely a hustle. It's a lot of work.
- [13:50]
B
But, yeah, because that's what. That's. You said something at the very start of answering that, which is, I think, key. It's not like, I think some people think, hey, I start doing content and then I go viral and. And I'm rich forever. No, you got to keep making content every day. Like, it's like a TV show. Those actors only get paid if they keep doing the show.
- [14:12]
A
What have you watched me lately? Social media is the king of what have you done for me lately? On my main channel, American arbitrage, my TikTok, I have. I stopped counting, but when I was counting how many million view videos I have on that, you know, they're short, so they're a little. It's a little different. But I had like 73 when I stopped counting, and it kept going. So, I mean, I've gotten views on that channel, and a lot of those were before TikTok really paid. I didn't make, gosh, a couple thousand, maybe on all those videos that made millions and millions of views. It wasn't that much money. So, yeah, just because you get views doesn't necessarily mean you get paid. And. And if you do get paid, it's just for that video. So can you continue to do it? All right. You know, it's a constant grind. It isn't easy, but it is very motivating. I will say that, like, it is a fun. I kind of look at it as a game sometimes. It's a fun game to play.
- [15:02]
B
Well, it's clear when it works, like, it's kind of like, you know, like certain tasks that you do. It's almost like going to the gym. It takes a long time to see results, and it's. You need to do it. You know, it's healthy, damn it. It takes a long time to, like, actually see it. There's other tests that you do that are that way. But you know what I like to do? I like to rake my yard because you know why? I see the leaves disappear. And then with this, you see, like, you know, if it worked, the dollars that come in, I mean, not just the views, but you've got clear metrics of success, right?
- [15:36]
A
100%. And I think it helps, like, if people are thinking about doing more content creation, especially to make money. It helps to have a vision with what. What you want to say and what you want to do. I came in a space that is a lot of, you know, I was seeing. And I watch this stuff, and I like this stuff. A lot of high rollers, you know, spending a lot of money on sports cards. And I didn't relate to that aspect as far as personally. I enjoyed watching it. It was entertainment. I was. I'm the guy that's going through grinding, you know, making. Turning $2 into $8, $8 into $12. And. And that's. That's what I was. So I'm like, I gotta start making content about what I'm passionate about. And lo and behold, there's a lot of people who are doing it that way. And there's so many little niches within sports cards or within content creation that you could just. If you're passionate about it and you're willing to put in the work because you got to be passionate about it, or even if you're making some money, it's going to be hard to keep it up because you can go do other stuff to make money. So it's. You got to be passionate about it.
- [16:33]
B
I appreciate going down that road. With me, that was. I had a lot of curiosity around that. So that was. That was cool, man. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Let's talk. All right. You gotta have some good stories. So tell me some good stories on some flips you've done. I think we've got a story teed up, baby, in mind, but I'll let you lead us through the water.
- [16:56]
A
So, yeah, like, when you're out flipping sports cards. So I'm not a guy that's going to go find a card and hope the player plays well next year or the year after. Nobody really knows what's going to happen. You can have some good guesses, but you can have some bad ones. And I feel like those kind of counteract each other a lot of times, and you don't end up with a ton of money doing that, in my opinion. But what I do is I go find opportunities right now. So I went to a flea market. This was like during 2020, right? Right during or 2021. So things were starting to open up a little bit where I lived, and I went to a flea market and I bought some soccer cards. Just a $10 little tote of soccer cards. And it had a bunch of prism and select. And that stuff just happened to get hot right at that moment. Stupid hot for no reason. I felt like I paid $12 for. I said 12 hint. But I think it was like about $12 for three or four hundred cards. And I sold four base Cristiano Ronaldo cards. They were just base cards for 900. I think it was $46. 900. They are five dollar cards a piece if you're lucky right now. And I think you'd be lucky probably to get five a piece. It was just timing and that's what I, that's my job, I feel like is finding the perfect timing, not worrying because I might have been able to hold another month and made a little bit more money. But if I held three months, it would have been half the price. So I just sold it. When there, I didn't pay much. So there was there and there's a lot of that out there. Every weekend when I'm going to card shows, you can find those deals. I just went cross country, driving cross country the last two weeks. I just got back a couple days ago and I'm finding cards all the time. I was in Utah and I found a autograph Sal Stewart card. Unlicensed. People don't love unlicensed. But it was $3 and that card is about a $75 card right now. Because he got hot at the start of the season. I knew he was hot because I pay attention to the baseball, you know, top 100 and stats and stuff. I knew he was hot. I knew $3 was a good deal and I'll make money on that. I don't have to wait. It's as soon as I want to cash it in, you know, I've got it listed, I'm going to sell it.
- [18:56]
B
So yeah, it's. Did the soccer thing, did you, did you know that it was, did you know what you were buying or did you go home and I mean, that's
- [19:11]
A
a good, that's a great follow up question because I knew for 10 for, for $12, yeah, you'd make some money. I thought I'd make 40 to $100 on those cards, you know, like sell them in lots and stuff. But what had happened was I looked them up on ebay that, that month and there was a couple cards worth five, ten bucks. I'm like, okay, I'll get around to those. I have other stuff ahead in the line. But that's, that was a good buy. And then I, I put up Luka Modric, who's a Croatian player. I put up one of his cards for 10 bucks or 20 or something. It was something in that range. And one day randomly, I got three or four offers in a row on ebay for that card in a row. And I'm like, okay, that's weird. What happened? Who talked about him on a podcast or whatever? Something happened. And then I sold that card and then I started looking. This was just the next month, and the Cristiano Ronaldo was going for hundreds at that point. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, this stuff went up in one month. Me just, you know, without knowing it. That was not me being wise and thinking I knew the future. I just got lucky. I bought something knowing it would be a good, what we call in the business, bread and butter find. Like, I'll make triple my money and I'll be happy or maybe quadruple my money and when I get around to it, but it ended up being a massive find that timed right. But yeah, that's a good point. Sometimes you just gotta know enough to make some money and then you get lucky on the, on the back end of it.
- [20:29]
B
Because, yeah, I think some of us, like, just would be able to pull the trigger. Like, I mean, not that no matter who you are, I mean, probably shouldn't be in cards if $10 is like breaking your bank, you know, account. But like, but $10 investment, like, you just got to pull the trigger and go, okay, I know I can at worst make 14. Like, you know, but like, it's. I think some of. It's just. I think some people overthink things.
- [20:55]
A
I honestly think if you, if you're just doing this for fun, you could take $10 and go to a card show and you can come out with 20 cards and it's going to be a slow grind because you're not starting with much money. But, you know, you could do that for fun. And then if you get into it and get a little bit more money to invest, you could actually make it something where you can make some, some real money doing it over time. But there's a lot of room to find good cards in that low end range because people just don't want to deal with that stuff. It's a lot of work to do it. And I oftentimes will trade my time to make that money, and then they'll, they'll, they'll cash out cheaper because they don't want to spend that time, which is totally understandable. People are doing different things, load stuff to ebay.
- [21:32]
B
I mean, is that like your selling platform?
- [21:34]
A
I do, I do, I do everything. So, yeah, I do. Collects is one that I'm using a lot. I don't know if you've heard of collects that's like lower and stuff. A lot of whatnot. Whatnot's my huge one right now. So I do single cards on whatnot rather than break. So I have people come in. I know what they're looking for. They want Dodgers cards, they want this. And then that's how I move my stuff quickly.
- [21:55]
B
Yeah, so like low, low cost singles on whatnot.
- [21:58]
A
Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, for the most part. I do lowcost singles. I, I mean, every year I have a couple cards that are going for three, four hundred dollars, but I'm not. That's not really my niche. I, you know, in a perfect world, I, you know, because everybody's got goals, I want to build it up to where it's mostly two 20 to $200 cards. But I find the deals in the cheap cards. When you start dealing with 100 $200 cards at card shows and card shops, people start talking about comps. A lot of people, which is understandable. They're like, I, I can do it at 90% comps. And then if you buy something at 90% comps, so it's $200 card, you're paying, you know, 1, 180 or whatever it is. It's hard to make money. Yeah, you're going to pay 15% and
- [22:39]
B
everything with fees and shipping out of ebay.
- [22:42]
A
But a lot of times, you know, use leveraging what you know about sports cards. You can find a card for $2 that's worth 10 and then it is worth it. And they're not, they're not comping that stuff because they're not going to throw that stuff online. They don't have any interest for that. They're just happy to move it. So that's my game plan for the most part. That's where I find the most deals. That's why I spend a lot of time in, in that level of sports cards, because there's just everywhere I go, plenty of inventory.
- [23:08]
B
Talking with Kerry Williams. He is American Arbitrage. I can't stop saying arbitrage. My favorite new word.
- [23:15]
A
More information. Right,
- [23:18]
B
Carrie, the people. What, what do you see? You're obviously out there a lot. You're buying stuff like where is your best and number one sources like, you know, give, like here, your trade secrets necessarily. Where are we buying all these?
- [23:34]
A
There's no secrets, man. There. I mean, it's, it's. I mean, I go, I have a good local card shop and, and everywhere I've gone, I found a good local card shop. So there's something to be said about that. If, if you're living in an area like you live, wherever you live, go to a couple shops, find one that's willing to work with you on whatever level. If you're dealing with thousand dollar downtowns or you're dealing with $1 cards, whatever you're doing, you can find those card shows. I have a lot of card shows in my area. Most areas have one or two a month at least in, in the U.S. so card shows are great. Find some dealers you can work with. You know, if there's somebody who has good stuff, get their number, work with them outside of the card show too. You can make that happen. And just kind of like a little bonus that I do that a lot of people in the space don't do is yard sales and flea markets. Like a lot of people don't think about that as a sourcing place, a way to get inventory. But it's, you know, a great place to get a bulk of cards, you know, that people haven't really looked through and don't really have any intention to ever look through because it's an old collection or it's something they don't want to. They're not resellers, so they just want to clear out their garage a lot of times. So I've definitely found some great hauls doing that as well. Vintage new stuff and everything in between.
- [24:46]
B
Yeah, the yard sale thing I thought about, but I'm like, how do you know which one, like he's driving around like, I mean, how do you know which ones are going to have.
- [24:54]
A
So here's, here's why it works for me and why it's hard for people who only do sports cards. I sell everything. I'm a reseller, so I go to, I, I find those as I'm buying other stuff, so I'm going to all those. I'm not just only looking for sports cards, I'm looking for video games, vintage stuff, you know, glassware. I'll find anything and flip it.
- [25:14]
B
Are you that guy that walks up and goes, get any diamonds, coins, chains, jewelry?
- [25:19]
A
No, but I have a lot of friends who are,
- [25:23]
B
I'm like, yeah, we keep all the treasures in the back. You want to get your dump truck?
- [25:27]
A
I run with a group of buddies who every time we go to some place they're like, got any video games, you know, in the inside? You got anything in the garage? Any, any sports cards? I, I run with a guy. A lot of guys who do that. I'm a, I'm not a great negotiator. That's probably my biggest weakness. And I'm not a very pushy person, so that's my negative trait. That hurts me sometimes. But if it's out on the table, I'll find it usually. And. And you'd be surprised the kind of weird and random stuff you find. My buddy last year, he found at a yard. So I think it was 40 bucks. It was a piece. It was a brick from Eminem's house. He apparently tore down his house and sold the bricks, and they were worth thousands of dollars. So I think he sold it for like 1800 bucks.
- [26:11]
B
How's that get authenticated?
- [26:13]
A
Yeah, it was already authenticated. Like, it went through. He used some sort of company to do it, and it was. I don't know if it was a charity thing he did, but it was. You can find some really weird and wild stuff at yard sales, cards included. I mean, I found, you know, Hank Aaron vintage cards for pennies on the dollar. At yard sales, you can find that kind of stuff. It's. It's out there.
- [26:36]
B
Yeah, you never know what you're gonna find. You might find one of those masters gnomes. One of those masters gnomes. That's what I'm looking for.
- [26:42]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, the gnomes.
- [26:44]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:45]
A
You can find a man. People want to get rid of them.
- [26:48]
B
Yeah, Everybody holds. They buy it. Oh, this looks cute, honey. Then they never put it in the yard or whatever.
- [26:53]
A
And I definitely see the gnomes everywhere. Like, every sports team in the world had a gnome at one point. And I find those at thrift stores and yard sales all the time.
- [27:02]
B
What's.
- [27:02]
A
I love bobbleheads. That's one of my favorite things. Giveaway bobbleheads. Some of them, especially the minor league ones, are worth a ton of money because they're. They show professional players and they gave them away at, you know, some small stadium in a rookie league stadium. And only 500 were made. So there's. There's low. Low supply and high demand because the player's good. Um, those are fun to look out for.
- [27:25]
B
I mean, everybody clicks something. It's like, it's.
- [27:27]
A
Oh, serious. Is everybody.
- [27:29]
B
That's why there's. Nation is like. It really is. That's what we are.
- [27:34]
A
I just try to.
- [27:36]
B
And hoarders. Yep.
- [27:38]
A
I'm selling to those people. I'm selling to hoarders, I'm sure a lot.
- [27:41]
B
What do you collect?
- [27:43]
A
Good. That's a good question. So, like, as a full time, like, picker, I'm pretty sparse with what I keep for myself. I'm pretty picky. I don't like anything that's too valuable because I'll sell it. That's my nature. So, yeah, I like Universe, like, for cards. I like the Utah Jazz because I grew up in Utah and I don't even like the stars. I want the more obscure Utah Jazz guy you can get. Give me a Greg Ostertag auto and I'm happier than. Than ever. Like, that's the stuff I'm looking for. Weird stuff.
- [28:10]
B
I got some John Stockton rookies.
- [28:12]
A
Yeah, I love. Yeah, 80, was it 8889, I believe.
- [28:14]
B
Yeah.
- [28:14]
A
John Stockton. I'll tell you his rookies.
- [28:16]
B
I find out Carl Malone, John Stockton. Yeah.
- [28:20]
A
I find his stuff out. And about the cool thing about like, collecting.
- [28:23]
B
Mark, who's the tall guy? Mark, whatever. Mark.
- [28:25]
A
Yeah, Mark.
- [28:26]
B
I guess. Mark Eaton Cards.
- [28:28]
A
Heck yeah. Dude. Let's. Let's talk at the national, man. Get them off you. But yeah, like, and, and when it comes to, like, other sports, I like. I like bust. I like NFL Bus. So I'll collect Ryan Leaf and Tim Couch. I don't know why I love those cards because they remind me as someone who looks for deals, the hype cycle in sports cards. You know, there's so many different guys that are hyped up every given year and most of them don't pan out. But it's fun to like go buy those cards cheap later that were worth so much money at some point and just, Just because I'm like, you know, I got. I was able to get that card that people were transacting for hundreds or thousands.
- [29:04]
B
Yeah, I just sold for like 50 grand. And you bought it for 50 bucks.
- [29:09]
A
That's fun to me. Like, that's kind of like a trophy almost. Even though it's probably even going to go down after I bought it, it's for me. So I like that it's kind of like a little trophy. Like, this is. This was valuable at one point.
- [29:20]
B
When you run into people at card shows or just in general in the hobby, how many people are collecting and how many people are flipping? What's the percentage?
- [29:30]
A
Great question. That is. I think more than ever there's more people flipping. So, yeah, I'm not sure the exact percentage, but I've never. I mean, there are so many people flipping compared to what it used to be. And I would say most people who collect flip a little bit. So even if you are collecting and vice versa, I think most people that flip primarily collect a little bit too. So everybody's kind of got A mixture of that in them, I think. But there's more people at a given smaller card show that's flipping than I've ever seen. When you go to a big show like the National, I love it because I see a lot of guys there with their books and they're filling up sets. So, so those are the, those are like the through and through collectors, since you know this, the OGs. So I love to see it. You see that a little bit more at the big shows you get a lot more collectors come out. But on the week to week grind, I think it's a lot of flippers in general. I would say definitely more than 50%. Well, well over 50% are flippers compared to collectors. But we all collect a little bit. I'm probably as much of a flipper as you can get and lower on the collector end, but I'm still collecting stuff.
- [30:30]
B
So when you go to a show like the National, I got multiple questions on that. But the first place I was like, how many people know you?
- [30:41]
A
Oh, yeah, it's a lot.
- [30:42]
B
Yeah.
- [30:43]
A
I mean, here's the thing about being noticed. Doing what I do is I'm where you would expect me to be. If I'm like at a restaurant, I'm not going to get noticed. But if I'm at the national in a, and there's a box of, you know, there's cards and I'm in a bargain box, that's where I'm supposed to be.
- [30:57]
B
Yeah.
- [30:58]
A
And everybody who watches that kind of content, a lot of people are there too. So I get noticed a lot at the national, you know, and I love to talk to people. I really enjoy that part of it, the social aspect of this and getting to know people and just chatting because we're, we're like minded in a lot of ways, the people who watch the content that I make. But yeah, I do get noticed a lot there. My voice will give me away a lot because I do a lot of GoPro point of view stuff. So sometimes if they don't know who I am and I start talking, they're like, oh, wait, do I know you? I'm like, yeah, do you know me from American Arbitrage? Right. American Arbitrage cards. And I'm surprised a lot of people know me from the garage sale, thrift store stuff and then started watching the card stuff too, which surprises me a lot. But that seems to be the case often.
- [31:40]
B
Carrie, if you're at the National, I mean, that feels like, I mean, I went with the boys, four boys, last Summer, the first one. I'll be there. Obviously this year we're going to do some content there. This year. You really promised me to do that with me. The, you're, you're. Is that like a treasure trove? I mean, how much money is Carrie spending at the national going through bargain bands?
- [32:04]
A
Not as much as you'd think. Like I'm, I'm cheap, dude. I mean, I spent, I think. What did I come up with? I think it's been over like twelve hundred dollars last year. That wasn't that much. I spent much. Not at all. Not at all. That's not like, that's not like. I mean, I'll probably do a lot more than that this year. But here's the thing.
- [32:21]
B
Those dollar bands you're looking for, those, those two to ten dollar cards.
- [32:25]
A
Yeah, that's the thing. It doesn't add up as I, it's not like I didn't get a lot of cards. If, if, if I am buying, spending over a thousand dollars, I'm getting thousands of cards. So yeah, I got a ton. I don't remember the exact amount. I spent a lot more money than that. But that was just on cards. I bought, you know, like some different boxes to open, which I don't do often, like expensive stuff. So I, I bought some fun stuff to open. But as far as bargain boxes, I was there every day, probably 10 hours a day, looking through bargain boxes, you know, picking out quarter cards, you know, picking out $2 cards, picking out $5 cards and that.
- [33:00]
B
There's quarters. There's quarter card bins at the National.
- [33:04]
A
At the National? Yeah. I think there should be 10 cent bins at the National. Believe it or not. There's some guys who just want to move stuff and I don't know, there's, there's a culture to it. There's a lot of people who just like to go and sit and go through that. That is like their happy place. It reminds me of like when I was a little kid and I was organizing my cards into teams. And then the next weekend after school I would organize them into year and then I would organize them by player. Like it was just. It's like a therapeutic thing for a lot of us, you know, and ultimately my goal is to get, you know, you know, the problem is I get stuck in those bins because they're so much fun. Like if in a perfect world, I'm staying a little bit higher, 5, 10, 15. You make more money that way. But it's, it's not as fun Sometimes, yeah.
- [33:48]
B
What's. Is there anything that tips like what's hot right now? Or what's. Some tips and tricks. You've given some throughout this whole episode. But like if somebody the thing like
- [34:00]
A
as far as like what's hot, hot, hot right now, that changes day to day. Right now is the, the first day of the draft, I think the NFL draft. I'm not sure when this is coming out. So just for the record, as of the day of the draft, I just realized this today that Jeremiah Love base cards from Bowman 20, 24. They're going for like 15 or 20 bucks. I have these boxes. Yeah. So I'm taking them out, I'm going to sell them today. I'm not holding them, I'm getting rid of them. So just like stuff like that, like so the NFL drafts happening. So there's going to be maybe like a week of some players spiking because not only they're getting drafted high, but they're getting drafted to the right team. You know, a third rounder to Dallas, a third rounder to, you know, certain teams. Dallas is the one. I always think the Chiefs, yeah. Where they have a good situation. The Bills, like where they have good quarterbacks. You get a wide receiver drafted by the Bills or something, people are going to think, oh, he's going to, you know, catch a lot of balls. So that, that's a good thing to think about. Baseball's fun. It's probably the most vibrant market, I would say, you know, just pay attention. Like it's, it's fun to just go look at the daily stats every day and go, okay, he hit four home runs or something crazy happened. I should probably see if I could, can go get some of his cards or I have some of his cards and with what I do in the bargain boxes, people are not going through these every week at shows. So if somebody's having a hot week, you can go to a show. And it's not just bargain boxes, it's even cards that are more valuable. They're not always checking. And you can find some arbitrage opportunities. And that's what I live off.
- [35:32]
B
Yes. The arbitrage is always out there.
- [35:36]
A
It's everywhere. It's everywhere around us. People ignore it often.
- [35:44]
B
What's overhyped right now? Like
- [35:50]
A
I have opinions on that for sure.
- [35:51]
B
I mean, who are you selling fastest?
- [35:56]
A
That's a good question.
- [35:56]
B
Like besides Jackson Dart. I'm just kidding.
- [36:00]
A
I mean, yeah, it could, I mean you can make an argument for a lot of those people.
- [36:03]
B
Yeah, I like Jackson, I got some big cards, but it's like I had done anything really. And his cards are like, I would
- [36:11]
A
say this, you could just go look at the history of quarterback prospects and most of them are hot a year or two and then they fall off, almost all of them. There's obviously the exceptions every year and that's what people are hunting for. So there's a good chance, you know, most of the guys people are going after in the new tops Chrome Football are going to fall off in a couple of years and then those cards aren't going to be worth that much. So with arbitrage, I don't necessarily concern myself with where they're going, but what they're worth right now. And if I could find them at the right price. But like, I think Topps Chrome Football is ridiculous right now as far as its pricing. It seems, yeah, it seems overpriced, but people are paying it right now. You know, if I could get it at the right price and flip it, I will. But I mean, I don't know if I'm the kind of guy that would buy that. And you know, it's not financial advice. Do what you guys want. But I'm not sure if I would hold that stuff or anything. But maybe I'm wrong. That's the beauty of this. There's.
- [37:00]
B
You're not wrong. Let me tell you, right. Literally, I've been ripping a little bit of that tops ker myself. And so, and I'm listing. We keep most of the stuff for in store, but I'll list some stuff on ebay, you know, that I want to move fast or, you know, it's more liquid.
- [37:17]
A
I got pricing on some of that stuff.
- [37:19]
B
Yeah, I got a out of 50 Jalen Herz Gold, but it's 20, 26. You know, that should be like a 50 or 60 card, right? Yeah. Well, one sold for 400. Yeah. Make that make sense. So I sold mine for 300.
- [37:34]
A
You made that.
- [37:35]
B
Happy to get rid of it because it was worth.
- [37:37]
A
If you know that that's a 50
- [37:39]
B
card in a year.
- [37:41]
A
Brain there, having done this for years and go, that doesn't seem right. I'm gonna move it. You know, that's what I would. I, I. Here's the thing. You never lose if you, if you, if you sell something especially, you know, you bought a box, so that's, you know, you're just having fun or whatever. But like you never lose when you sell stuff at a profit. It could go up, it could go down, but it's 300 bucks. Sell it. I would have sold it immediately. I would have had it out of the pot, out of the pack, and posted on online in three seconds at that price.
- [38:06]
B
But that's actually. I'm going to underline that statement. Like, you never lose when you turn a profit. Too many people get caught up in, oh, I lost out by not making 5,000% that I could have. When they don't think about, well, did you make a profit or not? Because every deal that could have been, that goes the other direction, you know, 110 that go the other direction versus
- [38:32]
A
that, think about it the exact wrong way. Like, did you make a profit? And how many times have you lost money because you held too long? And a lot of times when you're hearing people online talk about a card, a good card flip, including myself, that's the win. There's six other cards that are in the box or in a binder or whatever behind them that lost money or is losing money. So you're only getting certain highlights. So the key is, if you have a pro, in my opinion, if you have profit in front of you, you should take it. And. And sometimes that even, you know, sometimes that even goes to the fact that this card is probably never coming back. I should just get rid of it. It's a sunk cost. Let me get some money out of it, and maybe I could get 10% or 20% off of my money back. And I'm a better. I'm better at this now, and maybe I can make some money and get that. Recoup that money over time through several flips. It's the way you got to think about it in this business.
- [39:21]
B
Yeah, exactly. Carrie, this has been fun, man.
- [39:27]
A
Yeah, dude, I've had a great time talking, man.
- [39:29]
B
What's. What's the rest of your look like? He's. I heard. We heard the national in there. We're gonna meet up over there. What's. What else is on the horizon?
- [39:39]
A
So I heard you were going to Fanatics Fest. I've never. I've never been. Have you been to Fanatics Fest yet?
- [39:44]
B
Yes.
- [39:45]
A
What's your thoughts on Fanatics Fest compared
- [39:47]
B
to like the National? It's different. Like, I grew up in the hobby, but there were not Nationals like there are now. When I grew up, you know, like, that didn't exist in the. You know, I'm already older than you think. The late 80s, you know, they were not Nationals like that. And that is a purist card show on steroids. Right. You know, obviously they've had Some modern twists and there's breakers lounges and there's, there's stuff. Fanatics Fest is more of a fan experience that has cards as well. And so, you know, it's, it's a marketing activation in a lot of ways for brands like with fun things that you're shooting basketball, you're kicking soccer, you're doing a VR experience provided by dicks, you know, whatever it might be. And you're meeting athletes throughout the thing and you've got autograph signings and all that stuff. And then you got 25% of it. You've got like mapped out card dealers and there's great, you can go get card deals done. And there was a lot of transactions happening in the card section and I did a lot of transactions in the card section. However it was, that was just part of it. You know, it's all cards all the time at the National. And so I think it's. Honestly, it's not even really a comparison. It's like to. It's like a tomato and an orange. It's like they're not the same. And I don't think they're necessarily. I think it sucks that they're two weeks apart now, like, and you got World cup going on in New York. It's like get some air between those things. Not because they're competition, like I said, I think they're two very different things. But you know, for the average collector, whether it's money or time, it's hard to pull that off. You can have all the money in the world, but if, if you've got money, you probably work. And trying to get to two things in two, two weeks apart. You're almost saying, okay, you're coming to one or the other. But that's my only, you know, slight complaint. I'm going to be there because it's part of my business now, but it neither. I'll be at a National the whole time, just about then. And Fanatics Fest is going to be like a drive by.
- [42:00]
A
So I gotta, I gotta get up there now that I'm on the east coast, I gotta check out. I definitely, it's worth the vibe I got. It's just like a different kind of thing. But it would be fun. Like just.
- [42:10]
B
It's a lot of fun. It's fun. It's a different kind of fun though. It's entertain. It's, you know, I'm a, I'm a junkie with cards like you. So like the national is fun to me because I love cards and collecting and all that, but Fedaxis is more like, I don't know, entertainment, fun. And you get the cards, too. So in a way, you kind of get a lot of different worlds in that. So that's awesome. But I don't know. Yeah, it's worth your time. I'd make Map it out next year. I'm hoping next year they create a little separation and stuff like that.
- [42:46]
A
We're gonna do one, right? When I moved here, they were gonna do one in Orlando and they canceled it. And then they just kind of just do the New York one now. I've been meaning to go up to do it. I just. Yeah, just with the national right after. It actually really is a thought process, you know, money wise or just like you said, if you have the money to do it, how are you going to have the time? It's definitely tough to have the time to do two big events and in the same month. I 100% hear you. But, yeah, the national is my big thing. I travel to that. I do like a whole content series to that. And I think at the end of the year, I'm going to go like Dallas, which I haven't been to the Dallas card show. I'd like to go to the national in Nashville. These are all pretty quick trips for me. I want to. I want to go out a little bit more. I definitely can. Can do it. I'm blessed in Florida, in this part of Florida. Just have like as many card shows as I want to. And I don't necessarily need it to be a flashy card show.
- [43:36]
B
Yeah.
- [43:37]
A
To get views for me to get stuff. So there's not a ton of impetus for me to have to travel for it, other than just to see what it's like and just try new spots.
- [43:47]
B
Well, I'll tell you what we're going to have to do. We're going to figure it out. We'll sponsor, we'll figure it out. We'll put you up here, we'll get you to collect your station and you can film and do it. We got. We got the value boxes, we got a lot of. They're growing and we'll figure out something cool to shoot with you putting us through the ropes here and we got the studio here. We'll sit down and do an episode or something. That would be awesome.
- [44:09]
A
I'd love to do that.
- [44:10]
B
Yeah, I'd love to. Hey, man, it's been a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. Can't wait to grow this relationship. And, you know, I love what you're doing.
- [44:17]
A
Thank you man. I appreciate you.
- [44:18]
B
Ryan, Gary, really appreciate you for coming on. And hey, we appreciate you guys for listening. You're going to find us the collectornation.com the collectornation.com you'll find all the highlight clips, the full episode, and all the links to American Arbitrage. Hey, this is the Arbitrage here on Collector Nation.
- [44:39]
C
Thanks for tuning in to the show. Be sure to follow us on your go to podcast platform and catch the full video episode over on YouTube. Visit us at collectornation. Com and follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryan Alford. Now get out there and collect yours.